Armored Fighting Vehicles Version M5 (it is a tradition now)

[I am Belch II]

There is a place on Shapeways that makes a miniature of the KV6.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/3TXFDNHW4/kv-6-behemoth-fictional-heavy-tank?optionId=63414486&li=shops

[Euphonium]

Now I want to try & stat it out as the the flagship unit of some backwoods militia unit next time I run a MW2 campaign  >:D

Hmmm...

45mm = AC/5, 76mm = AC/10, 150mm = AC/20, rocke rails = LRM10?

or

45mm = LAC/2, 76mm = LAC/5, 150mm = AC/10, rocket rails = 2xRL10?

[Sharpnel]

The latter, definitely the latter (though without the 'L' in front of the AC)

[Ruger]

Now I want to try & stat it out as the the flagship unit of some backwoods militia unit next time I run a MW2 campaign  >:D

Hmmm...

45mm = AC/5, 76mm = AC/10, 150mm = AC/20, rocke rails = LRM10?

or

45mm = LAC/2, 76mm = LAC/5, 150mm = AC/10, rocket rails = 2xRL10?

I’d go with the latter, although making an AC/10 from a 150 mm cannon irks me. Something that bug should be either an AC/20 or a gauss Rifle.

Or you could just do the 45 mm as a light rifle, the 76 mm as a medium rifle and the 150 mm as a heavy rifle, and keep the RL-10’s.

Rather like that last one, IMO.

Ruger

[CDAT]

Biggest problem I have always had when trying to stat out anything from real life to BattleTech is the ranges getting shorter as the weapon gets more powerful. My Abrams can shoot a lot further and for more damage than my grandpa's Sherman.

[dgorsman]

The large guns should be Thumper cannons IMHO.

[Ruger]

Biggest problem I have always had when trying to stat out anything from real life to BattleTech is the ranges getting shorter as the weapon gets more powerful. My Abrams can shoot a lot further and for more damage than my grandpa's Sherman.

With rifles, the larger, more powerful guns have longer ranges.

Ruger

[CDAT]

With rifles, the larger, more powerful guns have longer ranges.

Ruger

Good to know, I have not looked at them after reading that the 120mm of the current generation of MBT is a light rifle and does no damage to a mech, but a tree smashing into one will do up to 20 points. (one moving at about 6120 kmph or about 3800mph hitting an area 27mm or just over an inch wide with a weight of between 7-10kg or 15-22lbs and the other much much slower, heavier but also hitting much more area).

[Daryk]

The "no damage" thing is a matter of some contention...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

One thing to remember is that bore size in Battletech means precisely nothing- the AC/5 canonically ranges from 30mm guns on the Rifleman to the Marauder's 120mm.

[Fat Guy]

CADT, trying to apply realism to BattleTech results only in migraines and sadness.  :bang:

[CDAT]

CADT, trying to apply realism to BattleTech results only in migraines and sadness.  :bang:

I know, that is why if it does not work for me I just ignore it (like the rifles, and mechanized/mobile infantry). I mean we are talking about giant stompy robots so there has to be some level of whatever.

[Fat Guy]

Germany and France have began development of the 'Main Ground Combat System’ (MGCS) to succeed the Bundeswehr’s Leopard 2 and the French Army’s Leclerc beginning in 2035.

[Sharpnel]

Fifteen years might not be enough time ;D

[DoctorMonkey]

Sounds like it will be a Leopard 2 chassis with a Rheinmetall 130mm gun with an autoloader and probably unmanned turret from the French


Frankly, I think Britain needs to get in on the action!

[glitterboy2098]

Sounds like it will be a Leopard 2 chassis with a Rheinmetall 130mm gun with an autoloader and probably unmanned turret from the French


Frankly, I think Britain needs to get in on the action!

yes then it can be built with a totally superfluous rifled 130mm cannon.

[DoctorMonkey]

yes then it can be built with a totally superfluous rifled 130mm cannon.

Or maybe just have a decent HE round developed from the get-go?

[Fat Guy]

The Ruskies love their ERA way too much to rely on HE.

[DoctorMonkey]

The Ruskies love their ERA way too much to rely on HE.

That's why you have a super-long rod "fin" round, I think the 130mm is expected to manage to offer nearly 1000mm long penetrators

[glitterboy2098]

Or maybe just have a decent HE round developed from the get-go?

actually the brits kept the rifling so they could fire HESH rounds. why i've never figured out. the usual claim is light vehicles and buildings, but if you are sending your MBT's after trucks and buildings you are doing a lot of things wrong. especially since a 120mm HESH round is major overkill. and HESH is useless against heavily armored targets.
and the rifling degrades the performance of APFSDS and HEAT rounds.

[DoctorMonkey]

actually the brits kept the rifling so they could fire HESH rounds. why i've never figured out. the usual claim is light vehicles and buildings, but if you are sending your MBT's after trucks and buildings you are doing a lot of things wrong. especially since a 120mm HESH round is major overkill. and HESH is useless against heavily armored targets.
and the rifling degrades the performance of APFSDS and HEAT rounds.

I think the issue was one of doctrine or faith/confidence in HEAT versus HESH.


Honestly, I don't understand it but wonder if it might be a hold-over from the issues with British tank experiences in WW2, not only with the armament compromises but also the relative lack of tank-on-tank engagements and extensive use of tanks against hardened fighting positions etc in support of infantry. Don't forget the division into Infantry and Cruiser tanks persisted well into WW2 for the British tank arm.


Given the upgrade of main armament (L/11 to L/30) and plan to completely replace Challenger 1 with Challenger 2, I am not sure why Challenger 2 didn't use a smoothbore instead of the L/30 although the headline of the longest tank-on-tank kill which was with HESH (I think) from a Challenger 1 may have had an impact in the decision.


Honestly, after that it looks as though it has been a cost issue since then as there was a Challenger 2 trialled with a 120mm smoothbore from Rheinmetall but it would need a complete turret redesign as the ammunition is one-piece rather than the L/30's two (actually three) piece ammunition.

[VhenRa]

L11, not L/11. L/ has a specific meaning with things like artillery and tank guns.

[Sabelkatten]

As it was explained to me the HESH issue had to do with range, specifically short range. APFSDS supposedly wobbles right after leaving the barrel, doing bad things to penetration for the first few hundred meters. The Brits were expecting to a lot of short-range fighting defending inside German cities and thought a rifled gun firing a HESH round would be the best option for that.

[DoctorMonkey]

L11, not L/11. L/ has a specific meaning with things like artillery and tank guns.

Thank you for the correction - the "L/xx" means length expressed as a multiple of calibres doesn't it?


So the 120mm Rheinmetall gun is available in two barrel lengths, the L/44 and L/55


Looking at Wikipedia (I know not a great source but I can't find my Haynes Manual to the Challenger 2 at the moment) both the L11 and L30 were already 55 calibre guns which might have helped to overcome the loss of muzzle velocity for "Fin" ammunition from the rifling


The Wikipedia page also says that the L30 was accepted for service and ordered into production in 1989... although apparently Challenger 2 wasn't ordered until 1991 so I guess the lessons of Desert Storm weren't available when the decisions were being made

[DoctorMonkey]

As it was explained to me the HESH issue had to do with range, specifically short range. APFSDS supposedly wobbles right after leaving the barrel, doing bad things to penetration for the first few hundred meters. The Brits were expecting to a lot of short-range fighting defending inside German cities and thought a rifled gun firing a HESH round would be the best option for that.

I've heard that the British Army refer or referred to urban combat as FISH - Fighting In Someone's House - and the novel "Chieftain" seems to suggest that while anticipating a life-span measured in hours if the Cold War went hot in the 1980s the British tankers were looking forward to reversing into and then hiding in German houses' front rooms

[kato]

Sounds like it will be a Leopard 2 chassis with a Rheinmetall 130mm gun with an autoloader and probably unmanned turret from the French

Eh, it rather won't be.

MGCS is a system of systems approach, and will likely result in multiple vehicles of different types. The contract signed now is the System Architecture Definition Study, which will explore over the next 18 months how to harmonize and realize concepts developed in the previous phase, as well as how to integrate the products developed into (French) SCORPION and (German-Dutch) TEN as tactical combat networks.

[PsihoKekec]

I've heard that the British Army refer or referred to urban combat as FISH - Fighting In Someone's House

and CHIPS - and Causing Havoc In Public Spaces

- and the novel "Chieftain" seems to suggest that while anticipating a life-span measured in hours if the Cold War went hot in the 1980s the British tankers were looking forward to reversing into and then hiding in German houses' front rooms

Fronts of the shops are best for this as even lighter armored vehicles can do it.

[DaveMac]

https://www.army-technology.com/features/streetfighter-challenger-2/

Urbanised upgrade, hence Streetfighter.  Includes heavier, more lethal machine gun systems to provide dismounted infantry better support fire and Brimstone anti-tank guided missile system designed to neutralise the threat of heavily armoured, highly survivable land platforms at long-range.  The Brimstone, made by MBDA, is designed to destroy fast-moving vehicles alongside tanks and other lighter-armoured vehicles as well as fixed positions like bunkers and can be fired from a range of platforms.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/decision-on-challenger-2-tank-upgrade-to-be-taken-in-2021/

Update on Challenger upgrade not expected until next year

Or possibly the year after

Or maybe the year after that...

[Fat Guy]

I'm surprised no Western nation hasn't followed the lead of the BMPT Terminator. They all have excess tanks in storage they can switch out turrets with. Lots of situations where a light autocannon, machine guns, automatic grenade launchers and short range guided (even ungided) missiles would be much more appropriate than a 120mm tank gun. Basically infantry fighting vehicle firepower (on steroids!) with MBT protection.

[dgorsman]

https://www.army-technology.com/features/streetfighter-challenger-2/

Urbanised upgrade, hence Streetfighter.  Includes heavier, more lethal machine gun systems to provide dismounted infantry better support fire and Brimstone anti-tank guided missile system designed to neutralise the threat of heavily armoured, highly survivable land platforms at long-range.  The Brimstone, made by MBDA, is designed to destroy fast-moving vehicles alongside tanks and other lighter-armoured vehicles as well as fixed positions like bunkers and can be fired from a range of platforms.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/decision-on-challenger-2-tank-upgrade-to-be-taken-in-2021/

Update on Challenger upgrade not expected until next year

Or possibly the year after

Or maybe the year after that...

Hang on, did I read that right?  If so, you missed the best part: using the cannon as an extra large selfie stick (putting a camera on the end to see around corners)!