Does Hardened Armor suffer double damage from Re-engineered Lasers?

[mbear]

I'm re-reading the rules on hardened armor, and it says to make a hash mark for the first point of damage, then fully fill in the circle for the second point of damage. The rules for Re-Engineered Lasers say that a strike from a RELaser fills a full damage circle on hardened armor for every point of damage the laser inflicts.

So this means that effectively the Hardened armor suffers double damage from a RELaser strike, right? (I'm not complaining, I think it's great. Just want to be sure I'm understanding this.)

[Weirdo]

Yes. That's the primary reason that reLasers exist.

[Fat Guy]

They treat reflec and ferro-lamellor as standard armor as well.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Re-Lasers are the downside to those gimmick armors that don't otherwise have a downside.

(Reflec already has downsides, and Re-Lasers laugh at that one too anyway)

[marcussmythe]

Didnt someone run the math and show that RE Lasers are at best -barely- superior when used against their special victim (Hardened Armor) and cstaclysmically worse against standard, FF, and (I think) actually worse against even Ferro-Lammelor than jist getting more normal lasers...

I dont recall, but I think the takeaway was if you -know- a unit will -only ever- fight hardened armor, use them.  Or carry some to slap in an Omni’s pods.  Otherwise no.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

They've been errata'd since then.  They were given a bonus to-hit so that math isn't the whole picture anymore.

[Empyrus]

They've been errata'd since then.  They were given a bonus to-hit so that math isn't the whole picture anymore.

-1 to hit and they got their heat lowered by one point to match their damage values. They are pulse lasers now though, so they can't be aimed with TarComp.
Naturally BV went up but they're worth something now.

[mbear]

-1 to hit and they got their heat lowered by one point to match their damage values. They are pulse lasers now though, so they can't be aimed with TarComp.
Naturally BV went up but they're worth something now.

You mean they can't do aimed shots with a Targeting Computer, right? They still get the -1 benefit?

[Sartris]

just like pulse lasers, yeah

[chaosticket]

So specialized armors with their own drawbacks and are countered with a weapon series that is awful unless you fight those specialized armors. If you do its so powerful its broken.

A Medium RE-laser practically does 12 damage for 6 heat against Hardened Armor.

It seems like a trying to make a patch to fix something you regret but leaving the original problem in. I dont like the specialized armors for all their downsides, but at least their have their purposes. RE-Lasers are practically a Vorpal Sword just to keep people on their toes, like a surprise instant-kill weapon.

Ive known cards games and the like, introducing generally useless cards to defeat a highly specific opposing card strategy.

[marcussmythe]

Eh?  Maybe.  With the buffs, the RE-Lasers arent going to make you want to /wrists for mounting them.  The existence of say Hardened or Reflective Armor suggests that some form of counter would be created - the arms race between offense and defense is as old as shield and spear.

And its not like you get -nothing- for Hardened Armor.  At the worst, you get ‘my opponenet is using RE-Lasers and not HAGs and CLPlas’  While youve paid a lot/too much for the privledge, there are worse things.

And your still better off than the poor guy with reflective armor at a Missile Convention.

[Empyrus]

RE-lasers are rather heavy. Using them to counter rareish specialty armors is still mostly waste of tonnage. The buff to the weapons makes 'Mechs with the weapons usable even when the opponent doesn't have specialty armors.
It isn't OP vs specialty armors by no means.

Personally i'd rather have two standard lasers and an ER small laser than one medium RE-laser, even against Reflective opponent, there's always chance of headshots or TACs or some other weapon might've punched a hole already. And let's not even talk about using small RE-laser, you could have three small lasers for one of them.
The large RE-laser is somewhat OK, especially when compared to the large X-pulse laser and its heat generation, but then again the RE-laser bonus is halved. Also a better weapon at distance compared to the large VSPL but that thing is a monster up close. But all in all, i'd rather find another ton from somewhere and get a Heavy PPC, still deals 7 points of damage vs Reflective or (effectively) vs Hardened armor, with better range.

And your still better off than the poor guy with reflective armor at a Missile Convention.

Reflec armor does not have weakness vs missiles.

[chaosticket]

Special armors are impractical. Standard Armor is still the most used.

Hardened Armors' primary purpose isnt the protection against a handful of special armor types, but to increase the overall durability of a unit at the cost of additional weight, reduced speed, and piloting penalty.

Honestly that sounds great as most technology applies to making units better offensively. Armor points are still hard capped.

[RoundTop]

Special armors are impractical. Standard Armor is still the most used.

Hardened Armors' primary purpose isnt the protection against a handful of special armor types, but to increase the overall durability of a unit at the cost of additional weight, reduced speed, and piloting penalty.

Honestly that sounds great as most technology applies to making units better offensively. Armor points are still hard capped.

The draconis combine mechs in 3145 are a great application of hardened armour.  The surprising one is the Rokurokubi.  35t with maxed hardened armour, only moves 7/10 due to the armour, and only has a LAC and a sword, but with 2t of ammo for it, load up on precision and go to town.  It takes a hell of a lot to kill, and the sword makes for easier physicals, without a PSR roll for missing things.  And sure it is only a LAC5, but it takes its toll.

There is a variant with an ER PPC instead too.  It is a light with the armour of a 55t mech.

[Retry]

Reflec armor does not have weakness vs missiles.

Not normal missiles but it is more vulnerable to crits from Tandem-Charge Warheads.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The draconis combine mechs in 3145 are a great application of hardened armour.  The surprising one is the Rokurokubi.  35t with maxed hardened armour, only moves 7/10 due to the armour, and only has a LAC and a sword, but with 2t of ammo for it, load up on precision and go to town.  It takes a hell of a lot to kill, and the sword makes for easier physicals, without a PSR roll for missing things.  And sure it is only a LAC5, but it takes its toll.

There is a variant with an ER PPC instead too.  It is a light with the armour of a 55t mech.

The Rokurokubi is a gem.

But with respect to hardened armor:  Yeah you get half as many pips per ton and therefore roughly the same armor protection per ton as standard armor (before Re-Lasers ruin your day or the improved protection against TACs) but keep in mind that both kinds of armor are restricted in how many pips you can apply per location.  Maxing armor with Hardened is giving you levels of protection literally impossible w/o that Hardened armor.  And the head?  9 points of hardened armor leaves you with armor to spare after a Gauss shot to the face.  An AC/20 will barely go internal, but still not kill the pilot outright (barring a cockpit critical).

[marcussmythe]

Not normal missiles but it is more vulnerable to crits from Tandem-Charge Warheads.

My point was just that youve paid for specialty armor thats doing nothing.  Better I suppose than the reflec armor guy at the TSM convention.  It does take more damage from physical impacts, right?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

My point was just that youve paid for specialty armor thats doing nothing.  Better I suppose than the reflec armor guy at the TSM convention.  It does take more damage from physical impacts, right?

And falls.  And moving thru buildings.  And bombs.  And artillery.

[marcussmythe]

And falls.  And moving thru buildings.  And bombs.  And artillery.

So what you are telling me is ‘use this stuff on aerospace fighters’?  :D

[Fat Guy]

So what you are telling me is ‘use this stuff on aerospace fighters’?  :D

Or on 'Mechs mobile enough that pulse lasers are about the only thing that has a chance in hell of hitting.

[Son of Kerenski]

Or on 'Mechs mobile enough that pulse lasers are about the only thing that has a chance in hell of hitting.

Been there. Done that. Took very little damage.

[Col Toda]

Would not a variable pulse lasers do better ? Hit more and have utility . If you are going to pay a premium on laser tonnage go VPL .  even X-pulse per ton is more accurate for the damage just hotter . The tonnage price for re-lasers is just too high.

[chaosticket]

Compared to Clan-tech, Id just stick with the clan tech as its generally much more useful.

Re-engineered Lasers are fair for Inner Sphere technology. "upgrading" from X-pulse to Re-engineered is fair. The heat difference between the Large models means that X-pulse lasers will trade far more heat and weight to carry additional heat sinks.

Between the Medium Models, well youre trading a 1 slot and .5 tons per RE-laser for anti-armor properties in an Era where most new models have special armors.

[Empyrus]

Between the Medium Models, well youre trading a 1 slot and .5 tons per RE-laser for anti-armor properties in an Era where most new models have special armors.

Most? Most are still sticking to standard armors (standard and ferro-variants). Specialty armors are less common than not. They may be relatively common among featured 'Mechs in TRO3145 series but even so standard armors are even more used. And there are many, many older variants in service still that do not use specialty armors.

[Sartris]

Most? Most are still sticking to standard armors (standard and ferro-variants). Specialty armors are less common than not. They may be relatively common among featured 'Mechs in TRO3145 series but even so standard armors are even more used. And there are many, many older variants in service still that do not use specialty armors.

From my tech census. This dataset eliminates units with the Unique tag in the MUL. It's pretty clear that even on the far end of the timeline, the embrace of new armor is proceeding at a snail's pace.

[Empyrus]

Using MML and MUL, i got following results:
New 'Mech variants since the Jihad: 456
Amount of 3050-3150 special armor using 'Mechs (includes uniques, Omnis counted once):
Reactive: 13
Reflective: 25
Hardened: 19
Ferro-lamellor: 10
Anti-penetratitve ablative: 3
Heat dissipating: 4
Impact-resistant: 4
Ballistic-reinforced: 6
------------------------
Total: 84, ie about 18 percent. Removing few older designs (early Zeus-Xs, Grand Turtle, etc.) from this, this number goes down slightly.

RE-lasers can be found in 16 'Mech variants and Omni configs, by quick count.

[RoundTop]

From my tech census. This dataset eliminates units with the Unique tag in the MUL. It's pretty clear that even on the far end of the timeline, the embrace of new armor is proceeding at a snail's pace.

Sartris: That is interesting, since it lists BRA as being only in 2 units. Are you counting variants? I can see 6 show up in the MUL.

[Sartris]

probably an incomplete dataset. or user error. or both. it looks like all the numbers are now a little low so units were probably added to the MM database since I did the counting. even still, few specialty armors are hitting 20 variants by 3150.

the data was for mechs only (also omitting one-off unique mechs), but I agree the Ballistic-Reinforced should be 6. i'll have to do some updates

[mbear]

Maxing armor with Hardened is giving you levels of protection literally impossible w/o that Hardened armor.  And the head?  9 points of hardened armor leaves you with armor to spare after a Gauss shot to the face.  An AC/20 will barely go internal, but still not kill the pilot outright (barring a cockpit critical).

Which makes me wonder why every 'Mech pilot in the universe isn't yelling and screaming to get Hardened armor added to the head of their 'Mech. Even if you strip out a ton of standard armor and swap in one ton of hardened armor on the head (8 points) you're still getting (effectively) 16 points of protection.* And given it's on the head I don't think it interferes with MPs or piloting rolls.**

*Except against Re-Lasers...
**Don't know the hardened armor rules well enough to say.

[Empyrus]

If hardened armor is mounted in the legs using patchwork armor rules, the piloting penalty applies, but not in other locations. Thus a 'Mech could use hardened armor in the head with no drawbacks.
Unfortunately in such case, armor is mounted by ton per location, so distributing is a bit tricky, you need to use multiples of 8 and 16 if using standard armor or you waste tonnage.
Still, it is possible to effectively re-create the AS7-D Atlas with hardened armor in the head with no major issues except somewhat weird armor with weaker rear.

But with anything other than standard armor, the slot requirement for the armor become problematic, along with the the amount calculations.

[chaosticket]

Patchwork Armor rules are optional and pretty much justified with mounting Hardened Armor on everywhere but your legs for basically no weakness except to Re-Lasers.

Hardened armor doesnt take any additional slots. That is HUGE. Every other armor takes extra slots.

Ferro-lamellor, aka Hardened Light, takes up 12 slots.

[RoundTop]

And nobody has mentioned the best thing about hardened armour. No tacs. No chance at a critical before you blow through the armour. Which means no easy kills from lb spam.

[Son of Kerenski]

Well its a minus 2 to the crit chance so not impossible to get a critical through armour. But unlikely.

[Alsadius]

8 hardened armor in the head sounds like a really good deal to me for an extra half-ton spent, tbh. Won't let you survive an AC/20, but HPPC and Gauss hits get much less scary that way.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm re-reading the rules on hardened armor, and it says to make a hash mark for the first point of damage, then fully fill in the circle for the second point of damage. The rules for Re-Engineered Lasers say that a strike from a RELaser fills a full damage circle on hardened armor for every point of damage the laser inflicts.

So this means that effectively the Hardened armor suffers double damage from a RELaser strike, right? (I'm not complaining, I think it's great. Just want to be sure I'm understanding this.)

I think that technically it's not considered double damage from the standpoint of calculating PSRs, though I could be wrong about that.

[Firesprocket]

I think that technically it's not considered double damage from the standpoint of calculating PSRs, though I could be wrong about that.

There is some ambiguity in wording about that since we aren't defining what a 'point' of damage is.  Common sense though states a point to be 1 damage.  Each point of hardened armor can sustain 2 points of damage before moving onto next point.  A ReLaser isn't doing extra damage, it is simply overrides the hardened armor rule and destroys 1 point of armor.  No additional damage is actually dealt.

[Empyrus]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=35165.msg820225#msg820225
Hardened armor doesn't modify damage amount, just absorbs more of it, so it has no effect on PSRs.

Other special armors do reduce damage, so they need to be damaged more to cause PSRs. Not sure what happens with damage-doubling effects though, like melee vs Reflec.

Also, looks like using patchwork armor to add hardened armor to the head does give piloting skill roll penalty:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=2830.msg62891#msg62891

Movement mod doesn't apply, but the PSR penalty does.

EDIT more relevant data:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3391.msg77341#msg77341

[brother elf]

And nobody has mentioned the best thing about hardened armour. No tacs. No chance at a critical before you blow through the armour. Which means no easy kills from lb spam.

Yeah, suddenly, the LB-X becomes the weapon to resolve first. (Each pellet is a separate source of damage that rounds up to destroy one armor bubble, right?)

[RoundTop]

Yeah, suddenly, the LB-X becomes the weapon to resolve first. (Each pellet is a separate source of damage that rounds up to destroy one armor bubble, right?)

Nope. Those were the old "BMR" rules.  In TW/TacOps, you half-fill the bubble (or one line of an X).  LBs don't deal more damage to Hardened anymore.

So LBx does regular damage (you just mark half bubbles) and it is MUCH harder to get a TAC.

[Empyrus]

Yeah, suddenly, the LB-X becomes the weapon to resolve first. (Each pellet is a separate source of damage that rounds up to destroy one armor bubble, right?)

No. Hardened does not reduce damage, there is no rounding. Each point of hardened armor counts twice, thus you'd need two LB-X pellets to same location to remove one point of armor (or a single SRM round).
Also TACs can happen, they're just unlikely with hardened armor.
The LB-X is still best resolved last, in-case other weapons do manage to make a hole.

Ferro-Lamellor on the other hand reduces LB-X damage to zero, as it reduces damage by 1/5th, rounded down, minimum of zero.

[chaosticket]

No. Hardened does not reduce damage, there is no rounding. Each point of hardened armor counts twice, thus you'd need two LB-X pellets to same location to remove one point of armor (or a single SRM round).
Also TACs can happen, they're just unlikely with hardened armor.
The LB-X is still best resolved last, in-case other weapons do manage to make a hole.

Ferro-Lamellor on the other hand reduces LB-X damage to zero, as it reduces damage by 1/5th, rounded down, minimum of zero.

I easily see that as broken, so its more likely that TOTAL damage is reduced by 20%, then the damage is applied. So Hit, then cluster, then reduced, and finally damage is applied.

[Empyrus]

Nah, FL reduces all 1 point cluster to zero. Per rules. It does not reduce the cluster amount.
OP? Maybe, but then again the armor weights more, takes quite a bit of slots, and is advanced armor. Without it we can't have beasts like the Savage Wolf (75 tonner with 85 tonner's armor at 5/8). You just pay quite a bit of BV for it.

EDIT a couple of quotes from TacOps:
"A location protected by Ferro-Lamellor Armor reduces all damage by 1 point for every 5 points (or fraction thereof) delivered per hit (to a minimum of 0 points of damage per hit). "
"Weapons reduced to zero damage effects by Ferro-Lamellor Armor (such as LB-X cluster munitions)..."