On-Board Arrow as Primary Armament

[Colt Ward]

It starts to matter more when you want alternate ammos . . . for instance, I like to keep a ton of Standard, ton of Cluster and ton of Smoke for tube.  Gives me tactical flexibility as well as the ability to vary the damage- an even with large (say 9x9 of BT mapsheet equivalent) having 30-40 shots on a Sniper platform is usually enough for me.  Though that might change if I can find someone to engage in a battalion+ vs battalion+ game again . . .

[mbear]

I wonder, and maybe someone can speak to the realism of it - is combining your Artillery and Main Battle functions onto a single crew realistic, or fair?  Would we need something in the doctrine that has company A -not- firing its launchers dry in support of company B a few map sheets to the west, only to find itself in deep trouble when the bad guys come knocking?    Or can we simply pile on the ammo trucks in exchange for any unit engaged for a few map sheets in every direction able to scream for help from other map sheets?  Does going from Arrow IV to a heavier and lower damage but more ammo efficient Thumper (or Sniper or Long Tom??!!) help or hurt?

See the Testudo Siege Tank in TRO:3145 Mercenaries for an example that does what you appear to be talking about.

But, and I get that SPGs have an ‘ohshit’ doctrine for when the enemy tank comes over the hill, that they hope to never in a million years use...  what Im more asking is could you have an MBT crew trained to do the MBT job but also do the arty job, respond to fire support calls, etc?  ‘Bravo Company is getting hit.  Alpha Company is unengaged but we dont want to have Alpha move out of position/its too far to have them respond in time.  Have Alpha support Bravo with fire’ - where both companies are on the line?

Or am I overthinking this?  Im just well aware of my civilian status and how often ‘good on paper’ is utter rubish in the field.  On -paper- having any engaged element able to call in massive fire support from every other element -sounds- good...

The Testudo I mentioned above functions as a mobile artillery unit (apparently doing the "push here dummy" approach to shell slinging) and an MBT. The TRO doesn't mention if the Arrows have ever been used as you suggest, but it does have them.

[truetanker]

I've been wanting to try it in an SLDF force with Thors. Not the toughest, but they're fast, cheap, and can defend themselves. :)

TAV-ICE Thumper is a better clone of the Thor, IMO Weirdo.

Yes it's slower and has pesky MG's instead of ML's,but it makes up with more Armor. Cheaper BV too!

TT

[Alsadius]

It starts to matter more when you want alternate ammos . . . for instance, I like to keep a ton of Standard, ton of Cluster and ton of Smoke for tube.  Gives me tactical flexibility as well as the ability to vary the damage- an even with large (say 9x9 of BT mapsheet equivalent) having 30-40 shots on a Sniper platform is usually enough for me.  Though that might change if I can find someone to engage in a battalion+ vs battalion+ game again . . .

Also, don't forget Copperhead. A force that keeps TAGs in decent numbers can do scary things with the ability to mark targets backed by a battallion-sized artillery battery, and semi-guided LRMs are a pretty good secondary use as well.

And I've done 20+ unit matches in MegaMek. Princess isn't a bad opponent, though you probably need to give her a small handicap (and turn on the individual unit initiative rule to prevent lag issues). You also get to play with fun rules like double-blind that way.

[marcussmythe]

Copperhead drops off fast in damage compared to Homing Arrow IV, IIRC.  Which may be why I went Arrow IV the last time I looked at this.

[Colt Ward]

No, the damage does not change between shells except for Cluster which does 5 pt hits.  Tube got a general damage buff a couple of years ago but A4 stayed the same.

[marcussmythe]

I knew tube got a buff (Thumper to 15, Sniper to 20, Long Tom to... 30?)

Last I looked, however, the listed damage for Copperhead rounds from those tubes was lower than the General Purpose damage.

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure the damaged stayed the same, only reason Cluster is different is b/c it is broken up . . . Long Tom got 25 but went to 2 rings IIRC.  Like I said, I mostly mess with Sniper.

[TigerShark]

Pretty sure the damaged stayed the same, only reason Cluster is different is b/c it is broken up . . . Long Tom got 25 but went to 2 rings IIRC.  Like I said, I mostly mess with Sniper.

It doesn't. Copperhead munitions are Damage - 10. So 5, 10, 15 for Thumper, Sniper, Long Tom.

[Alsadius]

I knew tube got a buff (Thumper to 15, Sniper to 20, Long Tom to... 30?)

Last I looked, however, the listed damage for Copperhead rounds from those tubes was lower than the General Purpose damage.

IIRC, you lose 5 damage, but you basically guarantee a hit. 20 damage on target beats the heck out of 25 damage 3 hexes away, which is what I think the Long Tom values are.

[Colt Ward]

Ok, -5 or -10?  This maybe one of those cases where MM is off then . . .

[TigerShark]

Ok, -5 or -10?  This maybe one of those cases where MM is off then . . .

TacOps, p. 184

Code: [Select]

       
Copperhead*AE  15 (R0)  10 (R0)  5 (R0)Long Tom, Sniper, Thumper

[marcussmythe]

Thats the values I remember - the Tube are better in range and ammunition, but the guided Arrow IV is way better that Copperhead.

[Weirdo]

Copperheads aren't really about competing with Arrows, they're more about getting some extra tricks out of tubes you already own, and/or didn't bring any Arrows.

TAV-ICE Thumper is a better clone of the Thor, IMO Weirdo.

Yes it's slower and has pesky MG's instead of ML's,but it makes up with more Armor. Cheaper BV too!

TT

I like the Thor's speed. When people talk about adding onboard arty to a force in this thread, they're likely talking about your typical battle or assault unit, the stuff most SPGs can keep up with. With Thors, you can add assault guns to a cavalry, striker, or even recon force. In a fight against other fast forces, having access to even light AE like that can potentially be devastating.

Someday, I want to try and run a raiding force composed solely(or almost) of Hadurs. No TAG nonsense, just full throttles and big booms. >:D

Is there a tube version of the Arrow IV SAM?  Does Flak do the same job just as well?  Dont know those rules.

Tube arty has no equivalent to the Anti-Air Arrow. Also, there is no such thing as flak arty ammo. None at all. The flak rules are used with standard HE rounds.

[Colt Ward]

You want to keep up with the cav?  The Karnov with a Thumper off to the side . . . sure, you have to turn that side to the enemy but as a VTOL it can keep up with most of the fastest mechs.  It was fun to pull that one out on a random night.

[Weirdo]

Yeah, those are fun. They've got a poor reputation in my group, but that's mostly because of extremely questionable tactics on the part of the guy who really liked them. When other players can recall more than one game where a Thumper Karnov was the victim of a DFA while on the ground where it had sat for more than one turn...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Arrow IV homing rounds do NOT target a hex (as is required for direct fire), but a mapsheet (TO, 354) - So the firing unit targets its own map. the TAG rules for Arrow IV on pg 354 say that "If an on-board Arrow IV launcher using homing missiles also mounts TAG, the unit may designate a target and fire its homing missiles against it in the same turn." This makes direct-fire (i.e. less than 17 hexes) necessary because the range of TAG is fewer than 17 hexes and the TAG to missile impact takes place in the same turn.

I thought that that was changed in the errata so that Homing rounds do have to target a specific hex and will home in against a successfully TAGGed within 8 hexes of that hex.  Was that changed again?

[TigerShark]

I thought that that was changed in the errata so that Homing rounds do have to target a specific hex and will home in against a successfully TAGGed within 8 hexes of that hex.  Was that changed again?

It's also part of another rule which really needs to change. That being that indirect fire requires you to be out of LOS. Artillery fire at coordinates. Whether they can see them or not, the coordinates don't change. It's a really bizarre caveat in TacOps that's gotta go.

[mbear]

Yeah, those are fun. They've got a poor reputation in my group, but that's mostly because of extremely questionable tactics on the part of the guy who really liked them.

*sigh*. What did you do Weirdo? We all know you're "the guy who really liked them."

[Weirdo]

It was NOT me. I know to keep them moving(or at least off the ground) when enemies get close enough to try a DFA. Even if that didn't occur to me, I'd like to think I'd figure it out before the same player did it to me a second time in a second game.

[Col Toda]

Yes I have.  The best Stock Mech for the purpose I have found was the Anvil 8M a 4/6 heavy with MASC . The burst of up to 8 run permit contolling the one board 17 hex range . Light in the Armor department so I normally exchange the ECM for more armor .

[Hellraiser]

What about unguided arty? Snubtillery is still fairly rare in terms of number of designs that mount them, anyone tried using regular Arrow, Thumper, or Sniper as an assault gun, with IDF or long-range fire being a secondary concern?

Yes.

Thumper BV is BROKEN!

Don't get me wrong, it was fun, but its far too effective & cheap for what it does.

Partisan + Demolisher + Demolisher, all ACs removed for Twin Thumpers on each.  Also an LRM Carrier w/ Twin Arrows too.

8 guns supporting the rest of the force.

The enemy attacked w/ what should have been able to run over our mechs since we had fewer but in turn had Artillery.

Swarms of Hovers coming in to flank....... Thumper Thumper Thumper........ all hovers crippled or slowed as to no longer be "flanking" but instead "crawling".

Omnis charging to drop off BA at our feet,  Arrow-Inferno INCOMING..... Everyone is Roasted Alive.

Giant TSM Banshee w/ Axe cutting down our mech force........ Taggers, Target That Thing for Twin 20 Point Love followed by Area Saturation attacks...... TSM Banshee has turned & fled with XL engine exposed to open air.  (It did remove my Firestarter-OB's arm & most the torso in 1 swing before it ran off however)

Ajax monstrosity with more armor than an Atlas is C3 commanding the enemy and raining down 45 LRMs a round...... Area Saturation to Immobilize & Inferno Arrows to let it die in a series of crit roles every turn in the middle of a Napalm Forest.


Yes,  I've used it, Loved it, and found that if properly supported w/ a blocking line,  can be absolutely brutal against certain opponents.

Solo its iffy, but as part of a large group company sized or more, is a major force multiplier.

[Hellraiser]

I thought that that was changed in the errata so that Homing rounds do have to target a specific hex and will home in against a successfully TAGGed within 8 hexes of that hex.  Was that changed again?

I know its that way for Mapless play for sure, not sure if actual map's are still allowed to be targeted or not but I think it was changed to hex radius to get rid of some of those just over the line or targetting same mapsheet kind of rules glitches.

[Weirdo]

Yes.

Thumper BV is BROKEN!

Don't get me wrong, it was fun, but its far too effective & cheap for what it does.

Artillery gets exponentially better the more tubes you have, so this doesn't surprise me. I'll bet the BV is intended to reflect the effectiveness you get when you've got four guns or so, not your eight. Note, I pulled that number out of my Targe, so don't hold me to it.

[Colt Ward]

Did the BV on any of the guns change when they up'd their damage?

[Weirdo]

No clue. I *think* the damage happened when TacOps first came out, so I don't think there was a BV2 value for them prior to the change.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There wasn't and it didn't.

It's why artillery units weren't given BV scores in TRO 3050 Upgrade, since TacOps hadn't been released then.

[TigerShark]

This is why people have army comp rules. If "bring whatever you want" is the order of the day, you'd just see a bunch of Clan pulse jumpers and customs. Gotta use common sense. :)

[Weirdo]

If that's the way they want to play, more power to them. Don't assume that's the only outcome, though. My group's balancing method used to be "bring a faction appropriate company or binary", with no restrictions on tonnage or tech. Even so, it was extremely rare to see all-assault forces, jumpathons, or pulsefests. Sometimes players will actually take the other player into account even when they don't have to.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, I've played with a few people who want to do that, but the majority of players I know find that to make for some really boring games and try to intentionally go for faction appropriate or otherwise intentionally non-optimized forces.