Trials of Possession: How big is big enough?

[SteveRestless]

I'm looking both for good examples within canon AND what players themselves see as appropriate scales of bidding for various targets. What sort of force would you expect to bid for the taking of objectives of different size in a trial of possession.

How big a fight do you see as appropriate for say, a month or two of production output, versus ownership of a facility? What's your expected force to take a continent? a planet? a genetic legacy?

Or alternately, what do you see as a typical objective for a star to take? or a trinary? a cluster?

[Kitsune413]

The size of the battle is directly proportional to how important the thing is to you.

The battles for Tokasha mech works are incredibly large

[Vition]

Purely my own thoughts on what is appropriate:

For monthly production of a military unit (BA, 'Mech, SF, CV) I'd peg it at roughly 1 star per month of production.  For component or ammunition production maybe a couple of points per month.  Against opponents your clan abhors, add another star in for every 3 months (or portion thereof) of production), friendly opponents, decrease the defenders by half.

For ownership of a facility, I'd go with a cluster per manufacturing line (likely maxing out at roughly a galaxy) for units.  Component or ammunition facilities drop that down to a trinary or a pair of binaries, depending on importance.

A continent doesn't seem like something a clan will typically trial for (yes, I know Alaric does it, but that was much more of a political move than typical clan trialing), more likely it will be for particular enclaves.  A small enclave would be defended by a star or nova, a medium sized one defended by a trinary or pair of binaries, a large enclave around a cluster, and a pair of clusters for particularly large or important enclaves.

Planets, in the homeworlds, galaxy vs. galaxy would be the norm with capitals being defended by at least a pair of galaxies.  In the Inner Sphere, it depends more on the expected defenders.  Against a militia, no more than a trinary, against a regiment 1-2 clusters, against an RCT 2-3 clusters.  If the clan wants to annihilate the regiment or RCT then they might up it to a galaxy (we see the Bears doing this during the Jihad against WoB forces).

Genetic legacies are usually going to be trialed for (and against) by particular warriors of said legacy.  So I doubt that they would be using anything more than a trinary for your average bloodhouse, particularly prestigious bloodhouses are likely to have a correspondingly higher number of descendants, so I could see up to a cluster defending their legacies.  As for the use a legacy without the ability for their spawn to acquire the house bloodname (patrilineal line, iirc), decrease the defending forces to a star and trinary, respectively.

[snewsom2997]

I'm looking both for good examples within canon AND what players themselves see as appropriate scales of bidding for various targets. What sort of force would you expect to bid for the taking of objectives of different size in a trial of possession.

How big a fight do you see as appropriate for say, a month or two of production output, versus ownership of a facility? What's your expected force to take a continent? a planet? a genetic legacy?

Or alternately, what do you see as a typical objective for a star to take? or a trinary? a cluster?

Ownership of a Facility, I can think of Tokasha, Pre Revival, Annihilation of CSJ, an the Trials for their manufacturing facilities and Protomech technology.

Seems for a Production Facility A Cluster of Mechs at Minimum, as it is valuable and the defender will defend it depending on the needs of the Clan, oftentimes everything they got.

For Technology, seems Trinaries mostly, Clusters at most, these seem more controlled, one trial for specs and examples, then merchant caste trade, or outright domestic production. Same for resources, ore, water, food, etc, short of trials of absorbtion, these tend to go rather smoothly.

Though in ether case clans may run a train on defenders, taking turns with trial, and attrition whittles them away, thinking rare ores, arable land, or exotic technology

[Kojak]

For a world defended only by militia: 1-2 Binaries/Trinaries
For a world defended by a line military force: 1-2 Clusters
For a factory world: Anywhere from 1 Cluster to a full Galaxy, depending on the level of importance
For a critical world (i.e. regional/state capital or Hesperus-level factory): 2-3 Galaxies

[GhostCat]

Well that's a matter of how you intend to declare your Batchall.  Now, the attacker might know something about the location or the defending forces, and initial bidding had already begun, meaning some commanders have decided to not use certain attack groups.  As in "I bid away all my warships and artillery units."  The next bidder might reduce the size of the ground units, thus challenging other leaders to risk even smaller forces.

On the other hand, the defender is doing pretty much the same thing, with their own leaders daring each other to risk everything on a coin toss.  Of course it does matter how important the objective is.  If it's just a few weeks of ready supplies stockpiled in a warehouse, you might not want to waste resources repairing extensive damage when an arm wrestling contest would have been sufficient.

Then there's that important Unobtanium Device that can't be replaced and your whole Clan is obsessed with protecting it.  Then, no Batchall is going to make a "Fair Fight" out of it.

"... With what force do you intend to defend that Star League Relic?" 

"Our entire Galaxy is on this Planet with the sole purpose of keeping you off of it.  This is your last warning, Go Away!"

Then, all bets are off, and if you really want that raggedy old McGuffin, you're just gonna hafta fight for it. 

Of course, if you belong to a Clan that nobody respects, expect the Batchall to be broken even before it starts.  Chances are they'll start shooting before you're done talking.

GC

[SteveRestless]

The size of the battle is directly proportional to how important the thing is to you.

Well, Yes. But I'm looking for data on where people think the starting point is.

The battles for Tokasha mech works are incredibly large

Wasn't Tokasha also relatively huge, thus necessitating/justifying a rather large to-do?

Purely my own thoughts on what is appropriate:

For monthly production of a military unit (BA, 'Mech, SF, CV) I'd peg it at roughly 1 star per month of production.

Given that my own numbers on what production might output, I like the star per month's production idea. It also scales well in terms of "If you're going to trial for more than 6 mos-1yr you may as well go full force with a cluster and take the whole facility"

Against opponents your clan abhors, add another star in for every 3 months (or portion thereof) of production), friendly opponents, decrease the defenders by half.

is this for both the attack and defense sides?

For ownership of a facility, I'd go with a cluster per manufacturing line (likely maxing out at roughly a galaxy) for units.  Component or ammunition facilities drop that down to a trinary or a pair of binaries, depending on importance.

A continent doesn't seem like something a clan will typically trial for

Well, I had been thinking "back in the homeworlds" where planets were often owned in fractions.

Though in ether case clans may run a train on defenders, taking turns with trial, and attrition whittles them away, thinking rare ores, arable land, or exotic technology

Do we have any examples of this in the canon?

Answers

And for Genetic or Tech Data?

Then there's that important Unobtanium Device that can't be replaced and your whole Clan is obsessed with protecting it.  Then, no Batchall is going to make a "Fair Fight" out of it.

Oh, definitely. Everybody has got their berserk button

[Kojak]

And for Genetic or Tech Data?

From what I recall offhand of the canon examples, those seem to be smaller Trials, somewhere in the Star to Trinary range. For really important Bloodnames, like the Wolves defending the Kerensky line, they'd probably break out a full Cluster.

[Vition]

is this for both the attack and defense sides?

Yep, imo, the defender will give a slightly higher bid against a clan they have a rivalry for, the attacking clan will expect this and bid accordingly - now the attacker and defender can also underbid with the intention of humiliating their opponent, but the extra units is where I put my baseline.

Well, I had been thinking "back in the homeworlds" where planets were often owned in fractions.

Which is why I followed it up with the enclave size thing.  It's not specified anywhere that I know of, but my interpretation of world control percentage is some arcane combination of population and production output of the world.  If you are going to push me to answer how much will defend the area of a continent, I would call the continent the equivalent of 1 or 2 large enclaves (even if there are a lot more than 2 enclaves included in the territory) and bid 1-2 clusters.  If there are manufacturing facilities located within the area being trialed over, the corresponding level of troops for the factories' defenses would be included.

[Archangel]

Well, Yes. But I'm looking for data on where people think the starting point is.

Might be as low as a single star or even a single warrior.  During the Burrock Absorption, as proxy bids became more the norm, on Hoard, a Galaxy Commander bid herself against the entire Star Adder assault force.

Another consideration is the quality of one's opposition.  A front-line commander isn't likely to deploy the same amount of strength against a second-line or solahma unit that they would deploy against a front-line unless they felt it was warranted.

[GhostCat]

Though in ether case clans may run a train on defenders, taking turns with trial, and attrition whittles them away, thinking rare ores, arable land, or exotic technology

Do we have any examples of this in the canon?

Clan Nova Cat is a prime example of this after they were Abjured by the other Clans.  Though they were given a grace period to collect their things and leave, some of the Crusader Clan factions were not happy with just calling the Nova Cats "Dezgra" and demanded several Trials of Grievance, etc. 

As of 3145, the Ghost Bears are still inclined to shoot first and talk about it later.

GC

[Archangel]

Which is why I followed it up with the enclave size thing.  It's not specified anywhere that I know of, but my interpretation of world control percentage is some arcane combination of population and production output of the world.  If you are going to push me to answer how much will defend the area of a continent, I would call the continent the equivalent of 1 or 2 large enclaves (even if there are a lot more than 2 enclaves included in the territory) and bid 1-2 clusters.  If there are manufacturing facilities located within the area being trialed over, the corresponding level of troops for the factories' defenses would be included.

You reminded me of the Snow Raven's obsession with Hellgate.  The Steel Viper captured the agro-domes there which ultimately forced the Snow Ravens to abandon the value world.  Once they regained control of the world (via a deal with the Jade Falcons) the Raven stationed an entire Galaxy to garrison the smallest colony in the Kerensky Cluster.  It's actual worth was overshadowed by its psychology value to the Snow Ravens thus demanding an overlarge garrison.

[SteveRestless]

Clan Nova Cat is a prime example of this after they were Abjured by the other Clans.  Though they were given a grace period to collect their things and leave, some of the Crusader Clan factions were not happy with just calling the Nova Cats "Dezgra" and demanded several Trials of Grievance, etc. 

As of 3145, the Ghost Bears are still inclined to shoot first and talk about it later.

GC

Hm, good point. I'd been trying to think of an example where like, a mech line was trialed for, over and over, until someone finally won or gave up.

[Archangel]

Hm, good point. I'd been trying to think of an example where like, a mech line was trialed for, over and over, until someone finally won or gave up.

Well there is the supply cache that the Goliath Scorpions and the Ice Hellions fought over for more than a year before the Fire Mandrill intervened trying to win the cache for themselves.  After driving off the Fire Mandrills, realizing that neither side could really prevail int heir weakened state, the Scorpions and the Hellions split the cache.  The Hellions took the weapons while the Scorpions took the cave and the remaining contents.

[SteveRestless]

Ooh, that's a good one too.

[Jellico]

Start as big as the command has. Then bid down to what you think can win once you know what the defenders are.

Ultimately it is not the attacker that sets the size, but the defender. And the attacker can always break bid if necessary.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

The one book, Roar of Honor, had the Wolves bringing a full Cluster to Toffen to Trial for the planet, and the horde of supplies the Ghost Bears had there. The defending force being a new Trinary, the Wolf Star Colonel bid his force down to a Trinary, then called in an additional Binary when he was losing. Grand total of 40 points of Mechs and Elementals for the (at the time) closest planet to Terra and enough supplies to outfit a Cluster in combat for a month.

Also: if the opponent they are facing is dezgra, chalcas, or not even worthy of those titles (Word of Blake, mercenaries (some would also say the Wolverines)) the tendency to ignore zellbriggen, and drop four Galaxies on them because they want them gone fast and bloody. The Jihad being a perfect example of this, when the Ghost Bears tore thru Kuritan space dropping their Alpha, Betda, Delta, and Rho Galaxies on any accompanying Shadow Divisions they encountered.

[Alan Grant]

Its all very situational. I also highly suspect that unit commanders have standing orders about their objectives. For example if they are tasked to defend a cache or an enclave or a planet, the CO probably has orders regarding just how much he should be prepared to risk for that objective if someone comes along and challenges for it.

Not unlike any Inner Sphere or real life military unit. You get orders that come down from the chain of command that tell you how important or not important a task is, and what the contingency plans are.

So in some cases, a Cluster or Galaxy Commander might have orders to preserve his/her force and withdraw if its clear that they are going to sustain a certain percentage of casualties or more (making the outcome a loss whether they win or not). They achieve that by bidding a smaller force, or being prepared to request hegira when a certain casualty rate is sustained and the tactical situation looks bad. This standing order might be in place because command is trying to think 3 moves ahead and anticipates that they will need that Cluster or Galaxy for the next battle, especially if there are fears of of a bigger offensive.

And then you might have the opposite of that. The Clan is determined to show strength today. Maybe military (and political) reasons they want this Trial to be a win and they want it to be a show of strength. They want this upcoming Trial to be a win regardless of the cost to the unit involved and give orders to that effect.

I know "it depends" isn't a helpful answer, but it really is the answer.

But I view that as a good thing. Strict Zell can be dull sometimes, and fighting that way all (or most) of the time can be dull, the rules can be very strict and box you in. Where Clan Warfare does get interesting is at the higher level of thought. At this level, bidding, tactical and strategic decision-making, that's where Clan style warfare becomes immensely more complex, ultimately allowing a lot more freedom for creativity.

[SteveRestless]

Start as big as the command has. Then bid down to what you think can win once you know what the defenders are.

Ultimately it is not the attacker that sets the size, but the defender. And the attacker can always break bid if necessary.

A good approach, but it's still good to know what's realistic for your command to aspire to seizing.


I've got a vague feel for it in my head, but I wanted to see what others felt was appropriate, make sure I wasn't real out of the ballpark on things.

[Zeruel]

Wasn't Tokasha also relatively huge, thus necessitating/justifying a rather large to-do?

pretty sure Tokasha was kind of an anomaly at that point in Clan history
as far as I can recall, it was one of, if not the largest factory in Clan space, was relatively new, and represented the majority of Hell's Horses' 'Mech production (they had begun to align their forces to be like other Clans, becoming more 'Mech-centric...losing Tokasha meant they stuck with a vee-heavy touman)

not to mention the Bear Khan personally led his forces, so that speaks also to just how important this objective was

[Rtifs]

The defender has to do a quick cost benefit analysis.  If “one month of production” is 15 mechs, you don’t want to defend with a trianary.  Even if you successfully defend the production, you’ve basically got 15 mechs to replace.  So you’ll want to defend with few enough forces to make a victory useful. 

Now there is a second defensive strategy to consider.  If 15 mechs are at stake you could defend with 15 or even 20.   This will force the attacker to bid so high in order to win, that there’s nothing for him to gain, given that he’s lost more than the prize will replace.  But rest assured that this puts equal strain on your own clan’s resources, so it’s not an everyday strategy.  As mentioned before, a commander would have instructions from higher HQ that would indicate if he should do this.

At one point in the Aiden Pryde novels, Joanna reflects that she’s only ever been in skirmishes.  She wants to fight and die in a real battle.  So I think most combat prior to Revival was a trinary or less.  Larger fights were probably once in a lifetime events. 

Now I think that fighting over territory is a big deal.  I’ve seen an estimate that there were 600 clusters at the time of operation revival.  That means about 120 galaxies crammed onto 45 planets.  If a clan lost a continent it could displace a galaxy or more, that would still have to be supported.  So it would make sense to put large forces at risk in territorial trials.  If the defending force loses, it's wiped out and there’s no need to support it with diminished clan resources.  It’s also why I don’t think territory changed hands too much.   

Well there is the supply cache that the Goliath Scorpions and the Ice Hellions fought over for more than a year before the Fire Mandrill intervened trying to win the cache for themselves.  After driving off the Fire Mandrills, realizing that neither side could really prevail int heir weakened state, the Scorpions and the Hellions split the cache.  The Hellions took the weapons while the Scorpions took the cave and the remaining contents.

I think these are special cases.  Note how these were significant events in the respective clans’ histories. 

[Archangel]

At one point in the Aiden Pryde novels, Joanna reflects that she’s only ever been in skirmishes.  She wants to fight and die in a real battle.  So I think most combat prior to Revival was a trinary or less.  Larger fights were probably once in a lifetime events. 

Now I think that fighting over territory is a big deal.  I’ve seen an estimate that there were 600 clusters at the time of operation revival.  That means about 120 galaxies crammed onto 45 planets.  If a clan lost a continent it could displace a galaxy or more, that would still have to be supported.  So it would make sense to put large forces at risk in territorial trials.  If the defending force loses, it's wiped out and there’s no need to support it with diminished clan resources.  It’s also why I don’t think territory changed hands too much.   

It depends upon the value of the territory being fought over.  Depending upon the territory's perceived strategic value, the defender will assign an appropriate force.  I say perceived because a military officer may miss something of strategic value because it has no immediate strategic value or they ignore reports from members of the lower caste because, well, they are members of the lower caste and are unlikely to have anything that the officer cares to hear about.  Bet that Smoke Jaguar governor wished he had heeded the locals warning about how important the grain from that farm was before he died.

The Diamond Sharks fought a two simultaneous trials with the Ice Hellions. One over a DS DropShip and a second over some territory.  The Ice Hellions assigned more forces to the DropShip battle and won the fight but lost the fight over the territory.  Despite losing the territory the Hellions celebrated, after all they lost some minor territory in exchange for something with real military value.  It was only later revealed that the Ice Hellion lab in that territory had found a method to increase Harjel reserves but the local Ice Hellion commander had ignored the scientist caste's reports.

I think these are special cases.  Note how these were significant events in the respective clans’ histories.

He requested canon examples and this was probably one of the few where there was extended period of trials over a single objective.  Pretty much all other examples of extended conflict were broken up into separate trials over different objectives, such as on York. 

[tbrminsanity]

Related question:
A commander initiates negotiations for a trial of possession of a planet, but a shrewd defending commander convinces the attacking commander that the defending forces, while poorer in training and quality, outnumber the attacking forces, and only orbital bombardment would allow the attacking commander to secure the planet (thus destroying most of the resources the attacking commander wants in the first place.  Would the defending commander be able to convince the attacking commander to modify his trial of possession for a beach head assault instead (and negotiate as per the rules of Zeibregan)?

[SteveRestless]

well, i do not think it likely that ortillery wouldd be the natural clan response there. Nor would aa commander shrewd enough to manipulate the enemy commander like that, get much benefit from convincing the enemy commander that a NPPC was just the ticket.

No, either it's right up their alley ("my elite cluster will shred their sohlama galaxy!three to one odds? just imagine the glory!") or it's enough to convince them the objective isn't worth it ("while my cluster is worth three of theirs, perhaps this is a waste. i shall go shame them in the council for using such excessive force in defense of a planet")

Ortillery just ends up wasteful.

[tbrminsanity]

Can the initial terms of a Trial change at all, or are you always stuck with the initial terms and as a commander you are forced to either accept or reject your initial terms?

[Vition]

The overseeing commander generally sets a starting point and a cutoff - or where he believes it becomes impossible (or extremely unlikely) to secure the objective.

Bidding between force commanders occurs and whoever bids lowest wins.  Once the trial is declared and combat begins, the winning force commander can call in whatever next higher force commander's losing bid was.  If the FC does this (s)he usually incurs a little bit of dishonor, but if he wins the honor for winning is usually greater.

If the FC calls in even more reinforcements, he is acting outside of standard clan behavior and is likely to be labeled dezgra by his opponents (and occasionally by his own clan, depending on circumstances) and zellbrigen suspended.  If this is an Inner Sphere force using Zell and trials in order to gain advantage against an opposing clan force, if they call in more troops they are likely to be called dezgra and carry on the stigma and consequences until they are wiped out or prove they actually are honorable.

So technically, a FC can call in up to the original force his overseer allowed (if they all transit to the same system), but the consequences to his career in his clan are often enough to prevent something like that from occuring.  And of course, the overseer can command the additional forces the FC is requesting to be withheld.

[Archangel]

Related question:
A commander initiates negotiations for a trial of possession of a planet, but a shrewd defending commander convinces the attacking commander that the defending forces, while poorer in training and quality, outnumber the attacking forces, and only orbital bombardment would allow the attacking commander to secure the planet (thus destroying most of the resources the attacking commander wants in the first place.  Would the defending commander be able to convince the attacking commander to modify his trial of possession for a beach head assault instead (and negotiate as per the rules of Zeibregan)?

The question there is why would the defending commander want the attacking commander to attack with more military strength than necessary.  Once the attackers realize that they have been tricked they wouldn't look upon the defenders too favorably.

Bidding between force commanders occurs and whoever bids lowest wins.  Once the trial is declared and combat begins, the winning force commander can call in whatever next higher force commander's losing bid was.  If the FC does this (s)he usually incurs a little bit of dishonor, but if he wins the honor for winning is usually greater.

The attacking commander may call down forces equivalent to the losing officer's last bid with minimal dishonor.  They may also call down forces equivalent to their opening bid but this would require all kinds of concessions to the losing officer rendering any victory useless to them.

If the FC calls in even more reinforcements, he is acting outside of standard clan behavior and is likely to be labeled dezgra by his opponents (and occasionally by his own clan, depending on circumstances) and zellbrigen suspended.  If this is an Inner Sphere force using Zell and trials in order to gain advantage against an opposing clan force, if they call in more troops they are likely to be called dezgra and carry on the stigma and consequences until they are wiped out or prove they actually are honorable.

However, if the defenders (or their allies) does something dishonorable that allows the attackers to declare the trial void and the defenders dezgra then all bets are off and they can freely call in all available forces.  During the Wars of Reaving, despite repeated calls by Khan Schmitt to abort their landing, a Mick-Kreese-Kline task force interfered in a trial between Clan Blood Spirit and Clan Star Adder, allowing the Star Adders to declare both forces dezgra and bring their full offensive power to bear.  End result both the Blood Spirit and Fire Mandrill forces were decimated and because of Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline's dishonor the entire Clan Fire Mandrill was disgraced.