Author Topic: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics  (Read 26275 times)

StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #30 on: 09 December 2014, 05:25:18 »
Missed that this went up. Very good!

Though, you left out one of my favourite combos:
Encirclement + Offensive Wall. Opponent flees out of the encirclement into the guns of the other
line of protomechs. Very good if you use Delphynes or Rocs for the encirclement, and Minotaurs
or Gorgons for the offensive wall.

Also, there is another advantage of encirclement: if you position your protomechs facing correctly,
you opponent has no choice but to take hits into that thin back armor. You call it "Encirclement"
I call it "The Protomech Circle of Death"
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GreekFire

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #31 on: 09 December 2014, 15:10:31 »
Very true. Certain factions, such as the Star Adders, have a ProtoMech selection that plays very well with these kind of tactics. It's the biggest strength of any Proto wall, you give your opponent the choice between being funneled into a killzone, or stay in place and fight with terrible movement modifiers.

Backstabbing is something I didn't really touch on, but being able to stack 2 Protos per hex can make losing initiative an extremely dangerous prospect for your opponent. This time around, I'd say the Ice Hellions are pretty effective here - combine faster "critseeking" Protos with light 'Mech or vehicle "holepunchers" and you've got a force that can nearly always engage on its own terms.

On the other side of things, the Steel Vipers can use their Protos to punch the holes, with lighter 'Mechs/vehicles coming in to do the critseeking. This puts the opponent in the somewhat uncomfortable position of wanting to prioritize attacking the ProtoMechs before they can backstab en-masse.
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StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #32 on: 10 December 2014, 00:58:05 »
Yeah, basicly, Protomechs are best with Zellbriggen thrown out the window.
Many people who hate on Protomechs focus on their light weight, that they
cannot take as much damage as a 'mech, etc. They forget that their power
is not in damage dealing or soaking: it is in fighting down and dirty. If you
play with Protomechs and you fight 'fair'? You are not trying to win.
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Maelwys

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #33 on: 10 December 2014, 05:56:13 »
Of course, sometimes those "dirty tricks" can get you into trouble. I've seen using units to block people's movement get so annoying that house rules have been introduced to help prevent it :) Make sure you've judged your opponents well :)

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #34 on: 10 December 2014, 11:29:49 »
Of course, sometimes those "dirty tricks" can get you into trouble. I've seen using units to block people's movement get so annoying that house rules have been introduced to help prevent it :) Make sure you've judged your opponents well :)

So, in other words, people can't figure out a counter, and so cry foul? Admittedly, I would only
use those tactics in a non-zell environment, and only if I was playing someone who has already
said they want me to go after them with the kid-gloves off.  Or if the opponent has been being
a jerk...

That said, the counter to Encirclement is not moving within the movement range of that many units.
Of course, at that point, their presence is STILL influencing the battlefield, which is the whole point.
That is, of course, all part of tactics. Like knowing the options for where your opponent can go, and
plotting to intercept them at the best point they could move to...or do you see people making house
rules against that, too? Or hit and fade attacks(those are also frustrating, after all! SOmeone runs
in, shoots at a high TMM, then the next turn runs away and hides, then rinse and repeat every turn)

Sorry...but if an experienced player(more then a year of active play) cannot deal with tactics effectively,
then they do not have my sympathy, and I will switch from coddling them to seeing if they can learn
by having their back to the wall. But, then again, my group, as much as we play to have fun, have a
very competitive streak to how we play. we will call people out on jerk tactics, but, frankly, we all have
our jerk tactics that we can and will use if someone makes it clear that "Oh! it's going to be like that, huh?"
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

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GreekFire

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #35 on: 10 December 2014, 12:28:30 »
Well, it can a bit of an iffy issue...take a look at the famous Savannah Master swarm. The Savannah Master costs 215 BV for a unit that brings a medium laser onto the battlefield, and has roughly the same amount of protection as a medium ProtoMech like the Orc, Procyon or Centaur.

Using ProtoMechs gives you even cheaper units to mass, and you'll typically mass them against expensive Clan units and their 3/4 pilots. Dropping a Timber Wolf Prime from your force and selecting cheap Protos can easily give you a full Star of 25 of them to use against your opponent. I can see how this can be abused, for sure. I've abused it before. I've had opponents abuse it against me. There's nothing really "fun" about facing a force of 3 'Mechs and 50 Protos with only 5 'Mechs.

But there's a difference between being the Savannah Master guy, and using a reasonable number of ProtoMechs they way they should be used. If you don't use these sort of tactics with Protos like the Siren/Cecerops, you're intentionally gimping yourself. If you don't find ways to funnel movement towards your heavier Minotaurs/Hydras/Tritons, you're hurting yourself as well. Only a few Protos can charge in like 'Mechs and expect to come out a winner, and they're really the exception, not the norm. You have to use "jerk tactics" (to borrow that expression) to stand a chance of winning as a ProtoMech user.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #36 on: 12 December 2014, 21:19:49 »
There is certainly the possibility of being a jerk with Protomechs. If you go out of your way to surround a Celerity but not attack it, you are just trolling someone. Keeping a point of Rocs 10 hexes from a Hunchback might be the smart plan, but it starts to be frustrating after three turns. As always its important to balance winning the fight with a fun game.
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StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #37 on: 13 December 2014, 19:54:23 »
Keeping a point of Rocs anything short of an Atlas 10 hexes from a Hunchback might be the smart plan, but it starts to be frustrating after three turns.

Fixed that for you! But, yeah, Protomechs have enough disadvantages with their speed, armour, and firepower
that you have to fight dirty with them to stand a chance.
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GreekFire

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #38 on: 14 December 2014, 00:05:49 »
There is certainly the possibility of being a jerk with Protomechs. If you go out of your way to surround a Celerity but not attack it, you are just trolling someone. Keeping a point of Rocs 10 hexes from a Hunchback might be the smart plan, but it starts to be frustrating after three turns. As always its important to balance winning the fight with a fun game.

Well...to be honest here, if I am given the chance to surround a Celerity, I'll jump on it as quickly as possible even if I can only bring a few ER Micro Lasers or something to bear.

And I agree with Mara. No way I'm throwing Rocs within punching range of a Hunchback, especially if they're in medium range for their ER Medium Laser. Sure, it sucks for the Hunchback dude, but I'm not letting him kill my stuff because he didn't want to bring anything with a longer range than 9 hexes. Otherwise I might as well take 'Mechs that load up on as many Medium Lasers as possible, stand them in a line, and engage in 31st century Napoleonic tactics.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #39 on: 14 December 2014, 00:15:42 »
The only Napoleonic tactics I want to use in Battletech involve a lot of infantry platoons lining up at the back of the battlefield, each equipped with field guns and magnificently stylish uniforms. O0
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #40 on: 14 December 2014, 00:19:33 »
The only Napoleonic tactics I want to use in Battletech involve a lot of infantry platoons lining up at the back of the battlefield, each equipped with field guns and magnificently stylish uniforms. O0

I think your FWLness is leaking again...
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #41 on: 14 December 2014, 00:27:12 »
You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

The FWL's approach to combined-arms tactics and large team formations is one of the reasons why I think the devs keeping ProtoMechs out of IS hands is a very good thing. They're evil enough already, can you imagine the havoc a good self-supporting Marik force could do with well-designed Protos in their ranks?
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GreekFire

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #42 on: 14 December 2014, 00:37:42 »
You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

The FWL's approach to combined-arms tactics and large team formations is one of the reasons why I think the devs keeping ProtoMechs out of IS hands is a very good thing. They're evil enough already, can you imagine the havoc a good self-supporting Marik force could do with well-designed Protos in their ranks?

A bad thing?! Never!! My love of heavy combined arms formations that grew from the FWL is part of why I enjoy playing with mixed Proto/Mech/BA forces as a Clanner.

I wonder if, through some sort of convoluted path, some ProtoMechs could have possibly ended up in the League via the Spirit Cats or Nova Cat refugees. Probably not, but a man can dream.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #43 on: 14 December 2014, 00:42:57 »
Hmm...maybe some Satyr-XPs... ^-^
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #44 on: 14 December 2014, 01:32:15 »
Marik... well-designed[/b?

Well there's your problem.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #45 on: 14 December 2014, 01:46:32 »
Well there's your problem.

I'm not going to have to abandon this thread for the sake of civility too, am I?
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StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #46 on: 14 December 2014, 01:56:02 »
I'm not going to have to abandon this thread for the sake of civility too, am I?

No..Frankly, people forget that FWL 'mechs and vehicles and naval assets are not designed like
the rest of the Inner Sphere. The rest of the Inner Sphere designs everything to be deployed on
its lonesome. The FWL designed things to support each other. Hence the Hammer and Anvil
combination, or the awesomeness that is the Albatross backing an Awesome and a pair of Perseus.
Or, heck, an Agamemnon with a Thera and two Eagles.

So, the FWL is well designed, they just do not design the same way as everyone else.

But, yeah, frankly, nothing would be more terrifying then the FWL with access to Protomechs..not
because Protomechs are inherently superior units in and of themselves, but that the FWL would
be backing them with artillery(and face it, Protomechs make GREAT artillery spotters!), their
6 tank lances, 'mechs, battle armour, and conventional infantry with field guns..
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #47 on: 14 December 2014, 14:08:12 »
I'm not going to have to abandon this thread for the sake of civility too, am I?

I hope not, since I'm not Martian and it was meant as a joke.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #48 on: 14 December 2014, 19:03:55 »
Fair enough, I apologize. To me, cracks about bad FWL units are a lot like cracks about French cowardice: They've never had an ounce of truth, nor have they ever been funny.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #49 on: 15 December 2014, 06:02:20 »
Great articles!

StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #50 on: 15 December 2014, 09:40:08 »
You know...I wish I could find them, but there was an Aerospace tactics article on what was
called "The Mantras." I cannot remember them exactly, but when I was first using Protomechs,
I had come across that, and had internalized those for using Protomechs, and found them as
a very good tactical guide for Protomechs, as well, with some adaptation.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

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GreekFire

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #51 on: 15 December 2014, 12:01:58 »
You know...I wish I could find them, but there was an Aerospace tactics article on what was
called "The Mantras." I cannot remember them exactly, but when I was first using Protomechs,
I had come across that, and had internalized those for using Protomechs, and found them as
a very good tactical guide for Protomechs, as well, with some adaptation.

Trace's Mantras! http://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/fighter-of-the-week-special-issue-001-%28repost%29-the-dicta-coburn/
A lot of those can be used with pretty much any unit. Definitely something everyone should.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #52 on: 15 December 2014, 12:23:07 »
Great article and images/diagrams looks awesome
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

StCptMara

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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #53 on: 16 December 2014, 05:42:08 »
Trace's Mantras! http://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/fighter-of-the-week-special-issue-001-%28repost%29-the-dicta-coburn/
A lot of those can be used with pretty much any unit. Definitely something everyone should.

Thank you for finding those, GreekFire..could not remember the name, so searches here were horrible.
And, yes, they can. On the ground, though, they apply best to protomechs and clan tanks.
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Re: ProtoMechs: A Comprehensive Guide - Part 2: Tactics
« Reply #54 on: 16 December 2014, 09:28:15 »
Well another tactic is ProtoMech tossing.  You grab a 2 or 3 ton Mech with let say a Atlas Assault Mech with hand actuator and toss the little sucker at someone.  If you hit, you smack them good with sprawling protoMech danging on him.
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