Where have all the celestials gone?

[Klat]

*tldr: Is it believable for mercs to have celestials post Jihad?

So no sooner do the forums go down than some of the folks in my RPG group start in on me about using celestials (post Jihad) for merc work. Even though I told them no I thought I'd run it by some folks to make sure I'm not being unreasonable.

Here's their argument: Blakist caches are kinda like SL caches were in SW era, only now we can find these cool Omnis in them.

Me: I doubt the Manei Domini would cache significant numbers of their front line machines as they were getting wiped out.

I've told the players that if anything they might find some interesting standard, non-omni mechs in a Blakist cache, but that celestials are probably not that believable.

To be fair they're willing to pay the points required to get omnis at the weight classes they want, but I've told them that early production omnis (Black Hawk-KU, Avatar, etc.) are much more believable.

Am I being unreasonable?

[Stormfury]

It's barely believable for non-Shadow Division forces to have Celestials during the Jihad.

Having a small or starting Merc force with them is pushing it a lot further.

Personally, I would say no. But unhappy players does not make for a happy game, so it's up to you.

[JPArbiter]

we already have a great house repurposing Celestial components into a line mech (with plans stolen from the Word) in the Yao Lein

[haesslich]

Me: I doubt the Manei Domini would cache significant numbers of their front line machines as they were getting wiped out.

I've told the players that if anything they might find some interesting standard, non-omni mechs in a Blakist cache, but that celestials are probably not that believable.

To be fair they're willing to pay the points required to get omnis at the weight classes they want, but I've told them that early production omnis (Black Hawk-KU, Avatar, etc.) are much more believable.

Am I being unreasonable?

I'd have to say that you're not being totally unreasonable - although there were more Mechs than MD towards the end of the Jihad, there weren't necessarily a lot of Celestials lying around despite Precentor-Martial St. Jamais' creation of the Eidolon from spare parts... or at least, not available in places that your playesr would have easy access to, especially not since the MD took great pains to keep their superior machines out of the hands of heathens.

Plus, you have to remember that MD vehicles were, for the most part, driven by VDNI - your players aren't likely to have the implants to use them, and if they came out of the factory that way it may be hard to refit them with a regular cockpit, at least with the cash they're likely to have in hand.  On top of such a cache probably being rigged with a nuclear-based self-destruct device which would be good for at least ten years... or at least, you could pretend such existed.

Remember too that mercs got a VERY bad name from some bad apples working with the WoBblies.  Being a merc with a Celestial, which was a signature WoB mech, could cause some... unfortunate situations to occur, or make potential employers immediately drop their offers and walk away due to the stigma attached.  To risk the invoking of Godwin's Law, think of how people react to former Nazi concentration-camp guards even now, sixty years after World War 2.  Now imagine how people would react to a merc band which shows up sporting some Celestials, and people KNOW only the WoB had those (the Republic of the Stars is VERY quietly deploying these, due to these same image issues). 

While it might be fun to have them get their Celestials, then send them fleeing for their lives while Blake-hunting bounty hunters go after them due to a case of mistaken identity or having them suddenly face-to-face with a RotS recruiter suggesting that they work for them lest there be... fatalities due to an angry populace, unless you're Wombat, I'd have to steer you clear of that.

[RichQ03]

Its probably safe to say that they didn't create too many caches of the Celestial designs.  I mean, from what I've read (and I could be wrong), Apollyon when to lengths to make sure that the Celestials (and for the most part, the Demons and Spectrals) stayed in the hands of his Shadow Divisions.  Plus, they were all made on Gibson...and Gibson ran into some issues (read JHS:Terra)...which is where they were manufactured, and probably stored if not in one of the Shadow Divisions.

So while you might find parts for them, the actual mechs might be harder.

Also, didn't all MD have a suicide implant?

And as stated above...theres the stigma for being the personal rides of the MDs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I imagine they were treated kinda like the SLDF troops treated Taurian Toros during the Reunification war, ie, destroyed for fun where they survived the initial combat at all.  Too many bad associations, no one wasnts a part of them any more.

[JPArbiter]

Its probably safe to say that they didn't create too many caches of the Celestial designs.  I mean, from what I've read (and I could be wrong), Apollyon when to lengths to make sure that the Celestials (and for the most part, the Demons and Spectrals) stayed in the hands of his Shadow Divisions.  Plus, they were all made on Gibson...and Gibson ran into some issues (read JHS:Terra)...which is where they were manufactured, and probably stored if not in one of the Shadow Divisions.

So while you might find parts for them, the actual mechs might be harder.

Also, didn't all MD have a suicide implant?

And as stated above...theres the stigma for being the personal rides of the MDs.

you are wrong about the Celestials being only manufactured on Gibson, there was a Plant on Terra too, which was Razed on Scour.  it also states in TRO 3085 Suppliment that Production of Manei Domini Equipment was far outpacing Apolloyns ability to equip resulting in surplus

[serene void]

Standard Answer #1 very much applies, if you want to have them in your own game then nobody is going to send the game police around to check.

That said, sticking to strictly the canon-universe, I'd balk at that rationale as well. If they are dead set on using Celestials I'd rather go with something like a crashed DropShip, a fallback repair position that ended up getting abandoned, or something along those lines. Bottom line being, getting more than a Level I (6 of them, in case I'm mixing up the Levels again) would be an absolute no go, and I'd personally draw the line at 3. But that's just me, use whatever works for your game.

Even with that I'd personally use them as a plot hook. While it's been established that people will use even things that they hate, that hate doesn't evaporate from everyone, and the Celestials are very much a key part of the public face that people think of with WoB 'Mechs. Having mercs with those machines will get them some of the associations linked to that.

People causing a riot when they show up for a crowd control scenario with them. Spare parts being a pain to get. Requiring techs with good qualifications to even work on them. Having the machines act as fire magnets during battles, when opponents try to take out old frustrations on something that reminds them so strongly of the Jihad. Or getting into interesting (in the Chinese curse meaning of the word) times over them if you get things down to the RPG level.

Perhaps some of the above can spark an idea for you.

[Moonsword]

There's also the fun of dealing with the cockpits, which are not designed for users without neural interfaces.

[Drop Bear]

well apparently it's simple enough to pull them (being an Onmi) and replace it with a normal Small Cockpit, but you then have the challenge of controlling a Mech from a pilot cavity just a touch larger than the displacement taken up by a baseline Human Adult.

[JPArbiter]

There's also the fun of dealing with the cockpits, which are not designed for users without neural interfaces.

rip out the VDNI cockpit and replace it with a regular small cockpit, that is a reasonable refit.

[Leonard Kerensky]

just explain this to them in a realy blunt way.

sure. you can have that Celestial mech. keep in mind your going to be hamstringing your merc unit.

there is a REALY bad stigma attached to the mech because of the wobbles
AND
you are likely to either be shunned, hunted, or outright attacked with no rpovication for having it.

enjoy.

they should quickly change their tune unless they REALY realy REALY want that mech

[Moonsword]

well apparently it's simple enough to pull them (being an Onmi) and replace it with a normal Small Cockpit, but you then have the challenge of controlling a Mech from a pilot cavity just a touch larger than the displacement taken up by a baseline Human Adult.

*digs*

Okay, only the Gibson machines use VDNI - the others are apparently using standard small cockpits.  (Malak article, TRO3075.)  However, for the VDNI machines used by the Manei Domini, it's not that simple.  Cockpits are not Omni pods, they're part of the underlying structure.  Interstellar Players is quite clear that this is not a normal cockpit system, meaning replacement basically falls under the same Class F refit as any other cockpit switch.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

I would let the players have them, but make them work to get the mechs and have to deal with the consequences of fielding them too. Have the nice guys shun them and the shady guys start offering contracts. Attempted lynchings by civilians or even planetary militia would be fun too. Do all that kinda stuff without making it so it's like you're punishing the players and it should be fun for all concerned.

[Moonsword]

If you're going to go for terrorism, never forget the ever popular car bomb.

[Drop Bear]

Unless their famous Wobblie Killers and their use of Celestials is known as a big "FU!!, You Wobblie Bastards!!", but even then folks may start to ask why their not ditching the WoB mechs now the Blakests have bean put down like the rabid dogs they where.

[Stormlion1]

I'll say this, if you do allow your players access to Celestials start out giving them one, then remember that besides having a stigma attached to them, they will be expensive to maintain, and require work only a qualified WoB tech can do not any run of the mill tech. Play that up and bankrupt your troops trying to keep just one operational, let alone a lance.

[Klat]

Wow thanks everyone, you have no idea how nice it is to see that I'm not an overbearing tyrant after all  :)

I think I'm going to continue to tell the players no on the celestials and give them an idea of how negatively people react to seeing WoB mechs running around by creating rival merc force that uses an assortment of WoB mechs and technical personnel. A little time chasing down some mercs that are "bad guys" by virtue of the equipment they use may persuade my players that celestials are not all that great.

Just to be nice I may let them use custom loadouts on the early omnis...

[haesslich]

Wow thanks everyone, you have no idea how nice it is to see that I'm not an overbearing tyrant after all  :)

I think I'm going to continue to tell the players no on the celestials and give them an idea of how negatively people react to seeing WoB mechs running around by creating rival merc force that uses an assortment of WoB mechs and technical personnel. A little time chasing down some mercs that are "bad guys" by virtue of the equipment they use may persuade my players that celestials are not all that great.

Just to be nice I may let them use custom loadouts on the early omnis...

Well, if they're not familiar with the Jihad - I'd suggest starting them out on the Jihad Hot Spot books and the fluff news articles in them to give them an idea as to why people would see Celestials the same light many people in Germany or Israel look at swastikas, or how a lot of Ukranians feel about history books praising Stalin. 

On top of the whole 'might get them hunted down by people' thing... if they've got a bunker full of Celestials, the Republic of the Sphere or a Great House may go after them to buy the units wholesale if they can - or steal/destroy them if the players refuse to sell.  Remember that this is taking place after the disarmament campaign has begun, and mercenaries are already having a tough time working due to the dual effects of the Jihad anti-mercenary backlash (so many mercs went over to the Blakists, and those who didn't were often destroyed or trashed by Blakist-employed mercs) along with the general war-weariness of the post-Jihad era.  Oh, and Stone's 'swords to ploughshares' campaign which he's gotten even the Successor Houses joining, for the PR benefits.

But if they insist on finding a whole Level 1 of Celestials and using them - well, let them.  Just be sure to hammer home how badly people will think of mercs who WILLINGLY use Celestials, and the problems involved in refitting (replacing a cockpit and moving around components to accommodate the larger, non-VDNI systems isn't going to be cheap) or repairing them.  Or, if they've got a whole bunch of parts for them, that they're either going to get offers to buy said parts (and Mechs) from various factions... or they'll have to deal with what's left of Blake's Wrath going after them for the stash of tech they've usurped.

Or heck, maybe Stone's Shadow Paladins might be going after the players too - Blakist gear's very restricted these days, both due to the PR issues as well as the fact it's very dangerous in the wrong hands.  Which, in the Republic's eyes, is anyone else's but their own.  :D

[Kojak]

I actually made rebuilt versions of the Celestials for the RotS Ghost Knights recently; I may have to post those in the near future.

[AETiglathPZ]

I wouldn't believe the lack of modded Celestials would anyway be dependent on any issues regarding the politics and methods of the previous users. Wouldn't be surprised if some company attempted to make there own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199

[StCptMara]

Celestials are going to be a sticky situation. Consider this: You have a group of Mercenaries. They are taking
contracts for minor stuff, like, say, a Training Cadre job. They get attacked  by a level 3 (36 units) of MD. They
manage to salvage some of the Celestials, or even Spectrals. What are they going to do? They likely took losses
in the fight, at LEAST in materiel, so they need to replace losses. Should they leave those WoB pieces of equipment
there? Or should they try and get them turned around and operational?

[Solarmech]

While you can take Celestials as salvage, how are you going to keep them maintained? No one is making parts for them anymore. Not that I woud expect people just to leave the salvage around either. You could probably sell them for a tidy sum to the right people. sm

[Ghost Legion]

Having thought about this in B-Tech terms.  I don't know if I agree that there would be that much backlash for using these mechs.

My reasoning is simple... 

Take, for example, the use of Panthers and Dragons by pilots in the Draconis March of the Federated Suns.  Both of these mechs are identified as being built and (primarily) used by the Draconis Combine.  Now, many of those Fed Suns pilots may not be thrilled with having to use a mech that is usually seen as an enemy, but they still use them.

I think it comes down to you use whats available.

[Youngblood]

I started a thread much like this on the old forums a while ago, in my early days as a BattleTech fan--except I had imagined the pilot as a reformed Manei Domini.  My goodness, was I caught neck-deep backlash.

@Klat: I can sympathize with your players in how they find this fancy new Word of Blake stuff to be "shocking" and/or "edgy" and/or "unique".  Just remember that unlike random one-off games, the exclusivity of units is a factor in campaigns, and serves to make campaigns more flavorful and worth playing.  Oh, and make sure to remind your players of the absurdity of a certain drow named Drizzt Do'Urden.

[haesslich]

Having thought about this in B-Tech terms.  I don't know if I agree that there would be that much backlash for using these mechs.

My reasoning is simple... 

Take, for example, the use of Panthers and Dragons by pilots in the Draconis March of the Federated Suns.  Both of these mechs are identified as being built and (primarily) used by the Draconis Combine.  Now, many of those Fed Suns pilots may not be thrilled with having to use a mech that is usually seen as an enemy, but they still use them.

I think it comes down to you use whats available.

Up to a point. It's one thing to use salvage; it's another to spend a lot of C-bills refitting mechs, which nobody makes, from a group infamous for atrocities and crimes against humanity, which uses those VERY SAME MECHS IN THOSE CRIMES (see the suppression of Irian factory workers in one of the Jihad books).  Especially of you're in the same type if job (merc) as the people who committed those said atrocities.

It'd be much like a SS trooper showing up to work as a bank guard in the black uniform of the SS in Germany five or ten years after WW2.  Even if he's never been a guard at Treblinka or Auschwitz, even if he never HEARD of those places, and even if that uniform's just salvage or all he's got to wear, he'd be terminally stupid to show up at that job with that gear. People would react badly to him, because of the memory of what said group did, even as he's just doing a guard job. Because of what other similarly-dressed guards doing the same job did.

[Moonsword]

Exactly.  The Celestials and Demons, in particular, are closely associated with the memory of the Manei Domini.

[Solarmech]

Exactly.  The Celestials and Demons, in particular, are closely associated with the memory of the Manei Domini.

Would not be a big surprise if someone started attacking a merc unit with a celestial because they though they might be Blakists. There is THAT much hate for the WoB in some places. sm

[phoenixalpha]

Give em what they want. Then hunt them down as Wobblies. If they want to be identified with wobblie-specific mechs, they'll be mistaken as wobblies. Get bounty hunters, irate citizens, spec op teams of the nation that they are in ... essentially everyone who has an axe to grind with blakists coming down hard on em.

The second game should be a lot more.... reasonable.

[Stormlion1]

Heck even getting hired would become a challenge, no employer would want to hire a unit using Celestials for any kind of public job, so training, garrison, and support missions would go right out the window. Only the darkest ops and most dangerous missions would any merc unit using Celestials be able to land, and thats not a long term way of survival.