Where have all the celestials gone?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The other thing about the Celestials is that while they might be cool looking, stat wise they're really not that great.  In fact, quite a few of them are actually pretty weak.  So you're getting a huge stigma attached to you for using them, but they're often not much better than the upgraded Succession War designs in 3050.  Seriously not worth the kind of grief you're going to take for running them.

[IndyRI]

Personally I ahve to agree with what some of the folks on here have said and suggest you just let them play with them if they want. Celestials won't be easy to find, but the possibilities for salvage, etc are there, so it is possible.  In general, as long as you have explained to your players the risks and reasons why they shouldn't want to do something, and they still want to do it, you should just let them play it anyways. Telling them a hard "No" can make for bad blood between the players and GM, which makes no one happy. You're the GM, not god. That being said, it IS your job to make sure you make good on those warnings.

Have people legitimately upset over their choice of mechs. Governments wanting to get their hands on them. Riots against them by the very people they're hired to protect. Contracts being taken on them for piloting Celestials. Maybe even have the public at large mistake them for actual MD remnants and going after them for that reason. in addition to all of the fairly unavoidable issues with repair and maintenance, I'm sure you can make the players pay for their desire to use those mechs, while still keeping things interesting enough that everyone has a good time.

[JRP3477]

The other thing about the Celestials is that while they might be cool looking, stat wise they're really not that great.  In fact, quite a few of them are actually pretty weak.  So you're getting a huge stigma attached to you for using them, but they're often not much better than the upgraded Succession War designs in 3050.  Seriously not worth the kind of grief you're going to take for running them.

I have to agree with you. You could have your guys find the celestials by backstorying it and coming up with a good stry line, Have them use the mechs and wind up getting their collective butts kicked by a force that usually would not beat them if they had been in theor clan or inner sphere designs. This way they've hade a chance to fight in them but see how crappy they may be or hard salvage is to find for them. Remember you can always story in how they got them as long as it's doable, the good thing about role-playing is being able to create a story.

[Maelwys]

On the other hand, its a game. Presumably the players and you are there to have fun. If they want to use Celestials, explain the inherent problems with it (supply, spare parts, stigma) to them. If they're still interested, let them use them. You can use the various problems as foils for the game at time, but I wouldn't hammer them constantly on it, or else you're going to ruin the game.

I mean, its not like Davions are scrapping Jenners left and right.

[Taharqa]

Certainly many of the celestials would have been salvaged during the Jihad, so they should be out there in some number.

[Klat]

Good points from everyone, thank you. A simple no is probably rather mean spirited. Hell, I should be thrilled that my resident "marauder is teh ownzors" guy is actually looking into something different  ::)  (A Deva Infernus)

I don't think my players realize how dangerous a celestial, with it's small cockpit, can be to a non-MD pilot. Maybe we'll run a quickly game with them so that they can get an idea of what they'll be dealing with, falling down and staying down after a single gyro hit, and failing other PSRs may give them an idea of how insane celestials are for normal pilots.

I'll have to ask my players to explain the appeal of celestials for their characters; these are the same players who loath clan tech and sell whatever they get rather than use it. This whole celestial kick kinda confuses me...

[Moonsword]

The main danger of a small cockpit is the PSR modifier.  Some people (*raises hand*) cringe at that due to having bad luck but there's situations where that extra ton is a godsend, such as many lights.

[IndyRI]

MEchs already fall down a frighteningly high number of times in a given battle. The last thing most players need is an additional modifer giving them blackout rolls even more often. It's far less of a concern for skilled pilots, which makes them more appealing for that extra ton in many RPG games. But nothing is worse than failing a 20+ dmage PSR in your nice shiny Archangel, then watching the fun continue as you end up failing to stand up on 3 consecutive turns, black out, and then watch a fire moth quite literally curb stomp you to death.

[Klat]

The main danger of a small cockpit is the PSR modifier.  Some people (*raises hand*) cringe at that due to having bad luck but there's situations where that extra ton is a godsend, such as many lights.

Oh the dice rarely love me... I really do see the appeal of the small cockpit, particularly on light mechs as you mentioned. Though personally I have a hard enough time keeping my mechs on their feet without the modifier  #P

Heck I'm the guy who completely wrecked a game (with these guys BTW) when I oh so adeptly jumped my MAD-4S behind a Seraph, and missed with the HGR, and fell, and got kicked to death by the Seraph... yeah, between that and wrecking a WVR-8K and needing rescued I may be the worst merc in the 'sphere

[Moonsword]

MEchs already fall down a frighteningly high number of times in a given battle. The last thing most players need is an additional modifer giving them blackout rolls even more often. It's far less of a concern for skilled pilots, which makes them more appealing for that extra ton in many RPG games. But nothing is worse than failing a 20+ dmage PSR in your nice shiny Archangel, then watching the fun continue as you end up failing to stand up on 3 consecutive turns, black out, and then watch a fire moth quite literally curb stomp you to death.

As I said, so do I.  My pilots love the taste of grass in their cockpits.  But honestly, there's times it works.  It's combining the system with an XL gyro where I start to get twitchy on a light.  Doing it on a heavy is just asking for Murphy to kick you in the rear.

[IndyRI]

As I said, so do I.  My pilots love the taste of grass in their cockpits.  But honestly, there's times it works.  It's combining the system with an XL gyro where I start to get twitchy on a light.  Doing it on a heavy is just asking for Murphy to kick you in the rear.

Well on a light if you are getting hit enough for a PSR in the first place, then you're likely already dead. That extra ton is far more valuable going towards maxxing out armor or adding another ML than towards surviving a fall that'll likely never be an issue to begin with. On a larger unit, I'd argue that one of the chief game changers for Heavies and Assaults are failed PSRs. On units that sustain as much damage as they tend to, PSRs are common, and all it takes is failing one to lead to a black out or an ill-timed fall onto your rear to put that big expensive BV-sink into the Combat Loss pile.

[Joshua D]

^Agreed.

The best strategy with a light is to never get hit that bad in the first place, and there are times small cockpits, XL Gyros and the like give you that extra lil' bit that prevents that hit in the first place.  Its when ya run and turn on roads that ya gotta watch out....gets me every time......

[IndyRI]

^Agreed.

The best strategy with a light is to never get hit that bad in the first place, and there are times small cockpits, XL Gyros and the like give you that extra lil' bit that prevents that hit in the first place.  Its when ya run and turn on roads that ya gotta watch out....gets me every time......

And that's why lights in the city are a bad idea most of the time. Or rather, lights without JJs in the city are a bad idea.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Because to a light mech, every part of the city is Skid Row.

[haesslich]

Certainly many of the celestials would have been salvaged during the Jihad, so they should be out there in some number.

Not that big a number - as noted by others, myself included, most of them were MD-restricted.. and Manei Domani were known for their suicide implants... and besides that, they were fanatical to the point where rabid Crusaders wondered why these guys wouldn't take a chill pill and calm down. 

Most the salvageable wrecks likely have been non-functional as mechs and would be used for spare parts, especially for the Successor States who'd want to examine C3i or VSP Lasers, among other gear.

The other thing about the Celestials is that while they might be cool looking, stat wise they're really not that great.  In fact, quite a few of them are actually pretty weak.  So you're getting a huge stigma attached to you for using them, but they're often not much better than the upgraded Succession War designs in 3050.  Seriously not worth the kind of grief you're going to take for running them.

I always thought the reason that Celestials were so deadly during the Jihad wasn't so much the fact they were Celestials, and more due to their VDNI-equipped pilots having cybernetics which boosted the Mechs' performance beyond that of your regular IS Mechjock, since they were designed to go after similarly deadly Clan Mechwarriors.  Between the VDNI, their other implants, and some of the tech upgrades like VSP lasers, the Void Signature system, and Mimetic armor for their BA-equipped troops, they were Hell on wheels until the rest of the Sphere learned how to counter them.

Well, that and the WoBblie predisposition to throw around nukes and other WMD's if they felt they were losing...

[Moonsword]

Most the salvageable wrecks likely have been non-functional as mechs and would be used for spare parts, especially for the Successor States who'd want to examine C3i or VSP Lasers, among other gear.

C3i isn't that big a deal given how long it's been around, although some of the systems integration, certain experimental weapons, and other things may be of more interest.

I always thought the reason that Celestials were so deadly during the Jihad wasn't so much the fact they were Celestials, and more due to their VDNI-equipped pilots having cybernetics which boosted the Mechs' performance beyond that of your regular IS Mechjock, since they were designed to go after similarly deadly Clan Mechwarriors.  Between the VDNI, their other implants, and some of the tech upgrades like VSP lasers, the Void Signature system, and Mimetic armor for their BA-equipped troops, they were Hell on wheels until the rest of the Sphere learned how to counter them.

The VSP lasers aren't that big an issue in some ways and, if poorly used, are even less efficient than normal pulse lasers.  Void-Sig was very rare and not that large a factor overall.  Mimetic armor is more useful, but has its drawbacks compared to normal stealth armor.  The VDNI and other cybernetics were considerably larger factors in the danger of the MD.

Well, that and the WoBblie predisposition to throw around nukes and other WMD's if they felt they were losing...

That's not really specific to the Celestials.

[haesslich]

Most the salvageable wrecks likely have been non-functional as mechs and would be used for spare parts, especially for the Successor States who'd want to examine C3i or VSP Lasers, among other gear.

C3i isn't that big a deal given how long it's been around, although some of the systems integration, certain experimental weapons, and other things may be of more interest.

It still presents a bit of a boost at least at the small-unit level, especially for small recon or Fire Support lances due to the lack of a single Master unit to be headcapped.  It's not the be-all, end-all that the Clan ERPPC was when it first showed up, but it's still not a bad trade with regards to the tonnage between it and regular C3.

I always thought the reason that Celestials were so deadly during the Jihad wasn't so much the fact they were Celestials, and more due to their VDNI-equipped pilots having cybernetics which boosted the Mechs' performance beyond that of your regular IS Mechjock, since they were designed to go after similarly deadly Clan Mechwarriors.  Between the VDNI, their other implants, and some of the tech upgrades like VSP lasers, the Void Signature system, and Mimetic armor for their BA-equipped troops, they were Hell on wheels until the rest of the Sphere learned how to counter them.

The VSP lasers aren't that big an issue in some ways and, if poorly used, are even less efficient than normal pulse lasers.  Void-Sig was very rare and not that large a factor overall.  Mimetic armor is more useful, but has its drawbacks compared to normal stealth armor.  The VDNI and other cybernetics were considerably larger factors in the danger of the MD.

Void Sig was rare, but quite useful - that's why Devlin Stone continues to manufacture some WoBbly mechs, IIRC, although he had the ejection system removed.  The MD did deploy enough new tech with their units, IIRC, to make them useful in the field... which was part of why Liao took over production of units like the Eidolon. 

Remember that NAIS had been playing with the X-Pulse lasers and similar systems for at least a decade before VSP's went out there - they don't fix everything, but the technology behind them could have been used to refine some of the programs NAIS was running right up until it got plastered.  Even if Davion or the rest never deployed C3i-equipped systems, the outlooks and the possible design shortcuts that the WoB used in their gear would have been useful for possibly perfecting some of the systems that the rest of the Successor States were deploying in experimental form from the 3060's right up till the end of the Jihad.

But by themselves, the Celestials weren't special - which makes me wonder why mercs who have to pay for their own repairs would even consider them... especially given that in Devlin Stone-world (aka: post-Jihad Inner Sphere), mercs are looked upon with suspicion due to their making their living by waging war, on top of the way whole units went over to the Blakists and then engaged in war crimes.

Well, that and the WoBblie predisposition to throw around nukes and other WMD's if they felt they were losing...

That's not really specific to the Celestials.

No, but being willing to toss out nukes or bioweapons wholesale makes an enemy rather dangerous - and the fact that they did so helped stretch out the war against the WoB by years, especially as units or key industrial or logistical distribution points were destroyed or conquered.

[Moonsword]

My point is that samples of C3i have been floating around for most of a decade by the time the Jihad got started, not that it's not useful.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, that was my point.  The mechs themselves were never very spectacular (with a few exceptions), it was the superpowered cyborg pilots that made them nasty (which was kinda weird, when you consider that they were supposed to be anti-Clan mechs).

[Grim_Reaper]

i never found teh Celestials to be very impresive myself, if anythign the looks of them feel like they dont belong in BT anyways. then i feel the same about the 'Borg pilots as well

[Wrangler]

Well, for the record the Celestials could be piloted by Magistracy of Canopus Mechwarriors belonging to the Ebon Magistrate (special forces). Those folks are almost as cyber as Domini were.  Some of their newer machines Like the Ebony have small cockpits as well.

As for left over Celestrials 'Mechs, i think its tough to say.  From what has been written, the Manei Domini operated in the shadows accept for when they something showy, like on New Avalon, Canopus IV and Hesperus.  I don't think they from what been written they were as well hyped as us player make them to believe.

If anything, there properly could be some odd Pirate bands with a Celestrial or some under lock and key by Great Houses for study.

Maybe in 3150s  they will re-emerge as part of the Republic's return to reclaim their space.

[Moonsword]

i never found teh Celestials to be very impresive myself, if anythign the looks of them feel like they dont belong in BT anyways. then i feel the same about the 'Borg pilots as well

Those looks were entirely deliberate on the part of the line developers.  They're supposed to stand out and feel like bad guy 'Mechs.

[IndyRI]

Those looks were entirely deliberate on the part of the line developers.  They're supposed to stand out and feel like bad guy 'Mechs.

And they did one heck of a job at that. Remember when the clans first came around? Anyone? Back then, a large portion of IS mechs were more of the "Humanoid" variety. The Quickdraw, Orion, Atlas, Stinger, etc. There were definitely a few that weren't, but by and large it was every bit as probably to see a humanoid mech as anything else, and those that were not humanoid very rarely had things like hand actuators, or distinct heads. Mechs either went whole hog humanoid or whole hog "Walking Tank".

When the clans came along, the 3050 series, those first run clan designs, changed everything. Almost all of them were of the Walking Tank prototype. Mechs like the Timber Wolf, or the Dire Wolf, or the Mad Dog, were the norm. And those mechs that did have some Humanoid features still felt distinctively "non-human". The Gargoyle and Executioner have distinct heads, but with disturbing visages more than faces. And Hand actuators were placed on mechs that before this would never have received them before. look at the odd placement of a Stormcrow's hands. Or a Nova. Or a Fire Moth. The early Clan mechs felt inhuman, exactly as they were supposed to.

The Celestials are the current version of this. The sharp angles, the faceted exteriors. The overall look of the Celestials speaks to them being of an entirely different breed than your average enemy mech. They have an otherwordly, even ethereal quality to them that would certainly lend them an imposing appearance in a firefight. They might not change the gameplay balance as much as the Clan mechs did, but they certainly accomplish their job.

[Moonsword]

At least one of those faces looks like it was influenced by the Atlas, if I remember correctly.

[IndyRI]

At least one of those faces looks like it was influenced by the Atlas, if I remember correctly.

The Gargoyle. The resemblance is definitely there, but whereas the Atlas was frightening exactly because of how humanoid it seems, the Gargoyle has a humanoid face, but a very distinctly non-human body. Pushes it into Uncanny Valley territory.

[Moonsword]

Wasn't disagreeing with that assessment, just asking about the face itself.  Honestly, it looks kind of like a giant football player with arm cannons to me.

[Stormlion1]

It just looked like someone wanted to put a face there but wanted it as blocky as possible to me.

[Grim_Reaper]

Those looks were entirely deliberate on the part of the line developers.  They're supposed to stand out and feel like bad guy 'Mechs.

not quite what i meant. it felt more like a crossover with an extreme version of some animae universe

[IndyRI]

not quite what i meant. it felt more like a crossover with an extreme version of some animae universe

Well, my lengthy, valid explanation aside, at least they're better than Protomechs.

[Grim_Reaper]

Well, my lengthy, valid explanation aside, at least they're better than Protomechs.

yeah the Protos were like "ok we got rid of the LAMs for being too much like Robotech so lets rip off teh Bioroids from that series instead and just make them look different" (functionially the're about the same).

but at least the Protos filled in the 2-9 ton gap between Battle Armor and Ultra Light Mechs.