Author Topic: Do too many IS leaders die of old age? (Read 13313 times)

TheOldGuy · « **on:** 04 February 2011, 20:11:47 »

I was considering how Theodore Kurita died of a stroke, much similar to Hanse Davion, and it occurred to me that very few Inner Sphere leaders die unnaturally. Now, my premise may be flawed as those who have a more encyclopedic grasp of the universe may point out, but if not...

Typically leaders in warring countries, particularly feudal ones, are killed with a high degree of frequency. A popular example would be Rome, with such fun times as the Year of the Four Emperors (not to be beaten by the year of the five emperors apparently). This turnover wasn't just a Roman phenomenon, as it was reflected in all the surrounding powers, such as the Sassanids. As we move forward we see high regal turnover in Byzantium, with William I, Harold II, Richard III, etc. etc. etc. Wouldn't we expect, in a perpetually war torn region such as the Inner Sphere, much more grisly ends to major leaders rather than having characters such as Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita, and Victor riding off into the sunset?

Moonsword · « **Reply #1 on:** 04 February 2011, 20:32:43 »

Plenty of them do die in battle but keep in mind that the House leaders aren't universally forward leaders. Ian Davion was killed in battle, holding the line for his troops to withdraw. Victor Steiner-Davion was assassinated. Several of the recent Mariks have been killed or gravely wounded in battle, as was Theodore Kurita. Minoru Kurita got to see the light at the hands of an AFFS sniper. That's just a sampling, of course.

Sigma · « **Reply #2 on:** 04 February 2011, 20:36:41 »

Hanse was still waiting to apply for social security when he had a heart attack, unlike old Vic. Teddy was old but not really old, what 5 years older than Hanse was?

The only ones I can recall living to be super old are Alex K, Vic, Sunny and that's about it.

Seems that if the assassins don't do you in the stress does.

Johnny 'NKH' Leyland · « **Reply #3 on:** 04 February 2011, 20:36:59 »

I think a fair few die untimely deaths, maybe it's just that famous ones from prominent BT eras tend to stick out.

Hanse died of a heart attack, but his wife Archon Melissa Steiner was assassinated, his brother First Prince Ian was killed in combat, and his son Archon Peter Steiner-Davion was killed by WoB.

Theodore Kurita's grandfather Hohiro Kurita was killed by a Rasalhagian assassin. The ISF tried to assassinate Theodore's father Takeshi Kurita but he was too leet with the katana for them; in the end they did basically agree for him commit seppuku though.

Top Sergeant · « **Reply #4 on:** 04 February 2011, 21:00:39 »

Lately most of them seem to be repeatedly making the mistake of announcing the location of the high level summit they will be attending, allowing the Word of Blake the opportunity of setting up an explosive welcoming package for them.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #5 on:** 04 February 2011, 21:02:28 »

I wouldn't say too many. There's a fair few that died old, but most die considerably below the average IS life expectancy. Even many who die 'naturally' of a heart attack or stroke die comparatively early, and there's a fair case to be made that this is because of stress induced by the job, so even their heart attacks can be considered 'unnatural' deaths.

jklantern · « **Reply #6 on:** 04 February 2011, 21:20:43 »

Quote from: Top Sergeant on 04 February 2011, 21:00:39

Lately most of them seem to be repeatedly making the mistake of announcing the location of the high level summit they will be attending, allowing the Word of Blake the opportunity of setting up an explosive welcoming package for them.

Well it would be RUDE not to invite them!

False Son · « **Reply #7 on:** 04 February 2011, 22:45:22 »

Of the leaders since 3025:

Steiners:

Katrina died in her sleep in 39
Melissa blown to bits by a floral arrangement
Peter killed by the Botherhood

Kuritas:

Takashi survives assassination only to commit formal suicide
Theodore died like his old rival Hanse, Stroooooke

Liaos:

Max dies in a loon house, not sure what the actual cause had been
Romano assassinated
Sun Tzu- Gooooooodhooooooood!!

Davions:

Ian died in combat
Hanse died at his desk setting the trend for successful rulers dying from stroke

Mariks:

Janos dies in a bombing, making Melissa a poser
Duncan is cut down by Andurien seperatists who see no value in a Captain-General hostage.

The other characters have more sorted histories, Wayne Waco and Jaime Wolf died in mechs over a hundred years old. Nondi Steiner dies the same way.

Stormfury · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 February 2011, 22:53:45 »

Hanse actually died of a heart attack.

Caesar Steiner for Archon · « **Reply #9 on:** 05 February 2011, 00:10:17 »

Quote from: False Son on 04 February 2011, 22:45:22

The other characters have more sorted histories, Wayne Waco and Jaime Wolf died in mechs over a hundred years old. Nondi Steiner dies the same way.

I don't think they made Hauptmenn a hundred years ago.

Taurevanime · « **Reply #10 on:** 05 February 2011, 00:17:52 »

Honestly I am glad that most leaders don't actually die in battle or the sort. If they all died that way it would seemingly diminish that type of death. This way those leaders that actually do die in battle like Ian Davion for example, become all the more inspirational and epic.

Johnny 'NKH' Leyland · « **Reply #11 on:** 05 February 2011, 00:20:58 »

Quote from: Caesar Steiner for Archon on 05 February 2011, 00:10:17

I don't think they made Hauptmenn a hundred years ago.

They did make Nondi Steiners though. ;) He means the age of the person. She was actually 86 when she died, same ballpark though.

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #12 on:** 05 February 2011, 00:33:22 »

Meh. In the first 700 years of English rule since William the Conqueror there were 39 monarchs. Five were murdered/executed and one died in battle. The other 33, over 80% of them, died from age or illness.

TheOldGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 05 February 2011, 02:20:09 »

Well good to know I was wrong.

Conceded!

cray · « **Reply #14 on:** 05 February 2011, 19:02:38 »

Quote from: TheOldGuy on 04 February 2011, 20:11:47

I was considering how Theodore Kurita died of a stroke, much similar to Hanse Davion, and it occurred to me that very few Inner Sphere leaders die unnaturally. Now, my premise may be flawed as those who have a more encyclopedic grasp of the universe may point out, but if not...

I half agree with this. They die darn young. Hanse Davion died in his what, 50s or 60s? on a planet where the average lifespan was probably about 120. Theodore also died quite young. Really, it's like they don't have time for regular checkups.

Quote

Typically leaders in warring countries, particularly feudal ones, are killed with a high degree of frequency.

The feudal element in BT governments is not strong. Most the FS planetary governments are representative democracies, and the interstellar government is more bureaucratic than feudal.

Nibs · « **Reply #15 on:** 05 February 2011, 19:15:26 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 05 February 2011, 00:33:22

Meh. In the first 700 years of English rule since William the Conqueror there were 39 monarchs. Five were murdered/executed and one died in battle. The other 33, over 80% of them, died from age or illness.

Less bombs, more illnesses than the BT universe, I'd wager.

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #16 on:** 05 February 2011, 22:37:41 »

Quote from: Nibs on 05 February 2011, 19:15:26

Less bombs, more illnesses than the BT universe, I'd wager.

Well, they didn't have Arby's, either. Hanse Davion, brought down by a Beef n' Cheddar.

WarMonkey · « **Reply #17 on:** 05 February 2011, 23:11:23 »

Quote from: cray on 05 February 2011, 19:02:38

I half agree with this. They die darn young. Hanse Davion died in his what, 50s or 60s? on a planet where the average lifespan was probably about 120. Theodore also died quite young. Really, it's like they don't have time for regular checkups.

The feudal element in BT governments is not strong. Most the FS planetary governments are representative democracies, and the interstellar government is more bureaucratic than feudal.

I think Hanse was almost 70. Still pretty young though.....

Nebfer · « **Reply #18 on:** 06 February 2011, 00:07:02 »

Well if the Davions are anything to go by, Do not be the leader, your bound to die an early death. Of the 29 Davions that came before Victor the average life span is 63.5 years (not including MSD), this is practically half the life span of your random New Avalon inhabitant.
They also have an Average reign of a little under 26 years.

President Lucien Davion 2270 - 2332 (62) / Founder
President Charles Davion 2275 - 2340 (65) / Brother
President Reynard Davion 2307 - 2371 (64) / Son of Lucien
President Etien Davion 2338 - 2378 (40) / Son of Reynard -suicide
President Paul Davion 2340 - 2394 (54) / Son of Reynard -Health issues
President Marie Davion 2348 - 2402 (54) / Daughter of Reynard -stroke
President Edmund Davion 2362 - 2415 (53) / Son of Etien -sudden death
President Edward Davion 2362 - 2417 (55) / Twin of Edmund -Murdered by Simon
First Prince Simon Davion 2378 - 2457 (79) / Son of Paul
First Prince James Davion 2415 - 2467 (52) / Son of Simon -Murdered
First Prince Ellen Davion 2425 - 2510 (85) / Daughter of Simon -abdicated (not bad for a cripple -see James...)
First Prince William Davion 2468 - 2512 (44) / Nephew of James & Ellen -Death by illness
First Prince Alexander Davion 2507 - 2600 (93) / Son of William
First Prince Zane Davion 2580 - 2659 (79) / Grandson of Alexander
First Prince Sarah Davion 2604 - 2681 (77) / Daughter of Zane
First Prince Samuel Davion 2610 - 2696 (86) / Brother of Sarah
First Prince Roger Davion 2638 - 2703 (65) / Son of Samuel
First Prince Joseph Davion 2667 - 2729 (62) / Son of Roger -KIA
First Prince Richard Davion 2696 - 2745 (49) / Son of Joseph -Accident
First Prince John Davion 2719 - 2797 (78) / Nephew of Richard -assassinated
First Prince Paul Davion 2778 - 2842 (64) / Grandson of John
First Prince Michael Davion 2804 - 2873 (69) / Son of Paul
First Prince Carl Davion 2828 - 2876 (48) / Son of Michael -KIA
First Prince Melissa Davion 2829 - 2892 (63) / Daughter of Carl? -Death by Illness
First Prince Joseph Davion II 2864 - 2935 (71) / Son of Michael -abdicated
First Prince Peter Davion 2899 - 2961 (62) / Son of Joseph - Murdered
First Prince Andrew Davion 2932 - 2999 (67) / Son of Peter
First Prince Ian Davion 2980 - 3013 (33) / Son of Andrew - KIA
First Prince Hanse Davion 2983 - 3052 (69) / Son of Andrew -Heart Attack
Regent Melissa Steiner-Davion 3010 - 3055 (45) / Wife of Hanse - assassinated

I'll see what I can dig up with the others, but I have a feeling it's going to be some what smiler

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #19 on:** 06 February 2011, 00:10:21 »

Melissa Davion was Carl's sister, Michael's daughter.

Devens · « **Reply #20 on:** 06 February 2011, 08:04:17 »

Maybe Victor was not so foolish to give up leadership. He lived longer thean any of the others.

RAE · « **Reply #21 on:** 06 February 2011, 08:32:05 »

As I recall, the Kuritan Coordinators have the longest average life span among all the Great Houses' leaders. Maybe it's because of the Japanese food or something.

Gracus · « **Reply #22 on:** 06 February 2011, 08:36:52 »

The other handbooks published to date show the same trend. The sick thing is that they are most dying to illness or accidents, which suggests there are a lot of assassinations that are never classified as such, because nothing else can really explain this tendency for sudden death among rulers from natural causes.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #23 on:** 06 February 2011, 14:27:22 »

Stress. Hanse died of a heart attack, but it apparently came from job-induced stress. It can't be easy, holding the fate of tens of billions in your hand everyday. Even in modern times, presidents often seem to age much more rapidly when they are in office. Stress like that can cause heart attacks and strokes, lower the body's defenses against mundane illness, and a host of other things. Hell, I saw stress-related illnesses in some kids I went to high school and college with, just from hard classes.

jklantern · « **Reply #24 on:** 06 February 2011, 14:32:52 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 05 February 2011, 22:37:41

Well, they didn't have Arby's, either. Hanse Davion, brought down by a Beef n' Cheddar.

Well, if you have to go by fast food related death...

Jackmc · « **Reply #25 on:** 06 February 2011, 14:35:02 »

Quote from: TheOldGuy on 04 February 2011, 20:11:47

I was considering how Theodore Kurita died of a stroke, much similar to Hanse Davion, and it occurred to me that very few Inner Sphere leaders die unnaturally.

LOL whut? There's an old school joke about the "Battletech Major NPC Retirement Plan" because virtually no one dies of natural causes (or lives happily ever after) in the game. We thoguht that Vic Davion might have bucked the trend since he was over a century old when he died, but nope seems even he was shoved off the mortal coil.

-Jackmc

Nebfer · « **Reply #26 on:** 06 February 2011, 16:10:15 »

Well here's the Steiners, The average life expectancy is 59 years in this case.

Archon Basileus Robert Marsden 2351 - 2395 (44) -"Heart Attack"
Archon Alistair Marsden 2361 - 2408 (47) / Brother of Robert -KIA
Archon Katherine Steiner 2373 - 2446 (73) / Wife of Alistair -Abdicated
Archon Alistair Marsden Steiner 2407 - 2467 (60) / Son of Alistair -Assassinated
Archon Michael Steiner 2447 - 2476 (29) / Son of Alistair -Abdicated -KIA
Archon Steven Steiner 2447 - 2501 (54) / Brother of Michael
Duchess Margaret Olson (Steiner) 2441 - 2515 (74) / Wife of Steven /deposed
Archon Robert Steiner 2470 - 2532 (62) / nephew of Steven & Michael -Abdicated
Archon Craig Steiner 2507 - 2555 (48) / Son of Robert
Archon Tracial Steiner 2506 - 2570 (64) / Cousin of Robert
Archon Viola Steiner-Dinesen 2539 - 2596 (57) / Daughter of Tracial -KIA
Archon Kevin (Dinesen) Steiner 2560 - 2647 (87) / Son of Viola
Archon Sarah Steiner-Dinesen 2570 - 2672 (102) / Sister of Kevin
Archon William Steiner 2615 - 2704 (89) / Son of Sarah -Natural death
Archon Jonathan Steiner 2666 - 2729 (63) / Son of William - Battlemech Accident
Archon Michael Steiner II 2675 - 2760 (85) / Brother of Jonathan
Archon Robert Steiner II 2701 - 2781 (80) / Son of Michael II -Pneumonia
Archon Jennifer Steiner 2725 - 2791 (66) / Sister of Michael II -KIA
Archon Richard Steiner 2769 - 2823 (54) / Son of Jennifer -Natural causes
Archon Marcus Steiner 2799 - 2844 (45) / nephew of Richard -Illness
Archon Melissa Nin(-Steiner) 2804 - 2845 (41) / Wife of Marcus - Deposed & Executed
Archon Claudius Steiner 2812 - 2849 (37) / Brother of Marcus
Archon Elizabeth Steiner 2840 - 2895 (55) / Daughter of Claudus
Archon Eric Steiner 2872 - 2913 (41) / Son of Elizabeth -KIA
Archon Tatyana Steiner 2892 - 2950 (58) / Daughter of Eric -Abdicated
Archon Marco Steiner 2912 - 2961 (49) / Son of Tatyana Abdicated (cancer)
Archon Giovanni Steiner 2932 - 2980 (48) / Son of Marco -Horse Riding accident
Archon Alessandro Steiner 2957 - 3007 (50) / Son of Giovanni -Abdicated
Archon Katrina Steiner 2976 - 3040 (64) / Niece of Alessandro - Abdicated
Archon Melissa Steiner-Davion 3010 - 3055 (45) / Daughter of Katrina - assassinated

Nibs · « **Reply #27 on:** 06 February 2011, 16:28:35 »

Thanks, Nebfer, for the summary. Roughly 60 years for the Steiners and Davions just seems so low, considering our current age's life expectancy. But, there are quite a few deaths that were in combat or assassinations. Also, using these stats, I speculate that roughly 3% of all Archons will die by horses, the feared enemy of the Steiners.

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 05 February 2011, 22:37:41

Well, they didn't have Arby's, either. Hanse Davion, brought down by a Beef n' Cheddar.

I dispute your hypothesis that the successors of William the Conqueror had no access to Arby's.

Beware my history major dropout knowledge!

JPArbiter · « **Reply #28 on:** 07 February 2011, 11:43:05 »

Quote from: Moonsword on 04 February 2011, 20:32:43

Plenty of them do die in battle but keep in mind that the House leaders aren't universally forward leaders. Ian Davion was killed in battle, holding the line for his troops to withdraw. Victor Steiner-Davion was assassinated. Several of the recent Mariks have been killed or gravely wounded in battle, as was Theodore Kurita. Minoru Kurita got to see the light at the hands of an AFFS sniper. That's just a sampling, of course.

POINT OF ORDER!

Victor Steiner-Davion Died of a heart attack after his Century old ass fought off assassins. With nothing more then a whisky bottle and crystal tumblers as his defense.

Moonsword · « **Reply #29 on:** 07 February 2011, 12:12:08 »

You're correct (and I'd forgotten that detail) but the practical difference between "killed by assassins" and "killed by the exertion of fighting off assassins" is precisely nil. Either way, they killed him, they just had an accomplice in the latter case.

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #30 on:** 07 February 2011, 12:19:00 »

Besides, the true assassin was that last batch of curly fries. Without it, he'd have survived that little combat. Nobody can escape the wrath of trans-fat! [drool]

Gracus · « **Reply #31 on:** 07 February 2011, 23:10:27 »

And if you think that's funny, consider the number of women who have ruled relative to the number of men, particularly in societies where gender equality is considered the norm.

jklantern · « **Reply #32 on:** 08 February 2011, 20:44:14 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 07 February 2011, 12:19:00

Besides, the true assassin was that last batch of curly fries. Without it, he'd have survived that little combat. Nobody can escape the wrath of trans-fat! [drool]

And it's scarier when you consider that a bunch of the fast food chains are owned by the same people. By the time Victor bites it, do you know who controls the galactic supply of trans-fat?

That's right. The WOBBIES and their Tanite Brain Slug allies!

Nebfer · « **Reply #33 on:** 08 February 2011, 21:54:18 »

Quote from: Gracus on 07 February 2011, 23:10:27

And if you think that's funny, consider the number of women who have ruled relative to the number of men, particularly in societies where gender equality is considered the norm.

Well the Steiners had 11 out of some 30 rulers being female, The Davions only had 5.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #34 on:** 08 February 2011, 22:02:05 »

Opinions on gender equality also have less influence where leadership is inherited. Not Andrew Davion's fault he had no legitimate daughters, to use one example. (ok, so scientifically, it is his fault, but the IS doesn't seem to use in vitro techniques to select for gender or anything, so...)

haesslich · « **Reply #35 on:** 09 February 2011, 01:20:38 »

Quote from: RAE on 06 February 2011, 08:32:05

As I recall, the Kuritan Coordinators have the longest average life span among all the Great Houses' leaders. Maybe it's because of the Japanese food or something.

I thought it was because they killed the competition, or at least did so after the Von Rohrs interruption. FWL's issues, along with the Davions' problems, stemmed from competition from rivals within their own clans or in the power structure.

OverKill · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 February 2011, 12:44:58 »

Quote from: cray on 05 February 2011, 19:02:38

I half agree with this. They die darn young. Hanse Davion died in his what, 50s or 60s? on a planet where the average lifespan was probably about 120. Theodore also died quite young. Really, it's like they don't have time for regular checkups.

LOL "It's the 31st Century but yeah, our cholesterol is so damn good that we don't do routine checkups!"

I think the stress get's them. I mean at EVERY SINGLE DAMN TURN someone is gunning for you. Whether it's your brother trying to wrest the Federated Suns from you or some assassin from the AFFS trying to pick you off or the rest of your family is insane and you are try to survive will your 21st birthday.