Author Topic: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085  (Read 19694 times)

Kojak

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Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« on: 08 February 2011, 05:09:40 »
In the spirit of the "Favorite 3085 BA" threads, only more expansive, talk about your favorite new toys that your faction got in TRO 3085 and the Supplemental, and why they're your favorite.


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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #1 on: 08 February 2011, 08:14:21 »
Well, since you ask in the IS forums, I guess that you prefer that we cover IS designs, and with faction in singular I have to limit myself to Lyrans.

Of the Lyran stuff, my favorite is the Morgenstern. It is a good omni-fighter that replaces three older designs, of which one (Lucifer) has a bad reputation.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #2 on: 08 February 2011, 10:24:20 »
Well considering in the IS I'm more FS and Cappies, I'm going to go with the Shen Yi. Is it efficient? No. Is it fun? Yes. Huge amounts of potential damage? Correct. Any chance of using it? None. The thing is very usable, but is such a WTF design that it's just dripping with character.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #3 on: 08 February 2011, 10:49:34 »
I'm just happy the RotS exists now and is getting some goodies to play with. O0
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #4 on: 08 February 2011, 10:54:56 »
I'm very fond of the Fennec.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #5 on: 08 February 2011, 10:56:25 »
I'm very fond of the Fennec.

As am I. It's ugly as sin, uses obsolete tech, and is the posterchild for a type of tech (C3) that the FS barely even uses. Yet somehow, it all just works.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #6 on: 08 February 2011, 11:02:57 »
As am I. It's ugly as sin, uses obsolete tech, and is the posterchild for a type of tech (C3) that the FS barely even uses. Yet somehow, it all just works.

We've actually had a number of faster light and medium C3 slave units for a while now (Stealth, Javelin, Centurion, etc.) and nothing really able to function as a good fast C3 master, so it fills a needed niche. As for looks, well, at least Chaffee didn't draw it.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #7 on: 08 February 2011, 11:10:12 »
^Exactly. The Fedsuns don't make much use of C3, but because they do in fact have the designs in production, they would likely make far more use of it assuming they had a quality Master for such a lance. The Fennec was purpsoe-built for just that. and I would be unsurprised if we see FS C3 designs pick up quite a bit from here, much to most Drac fans' chagrin.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #8 on: 08 February 2011, 11:11:52 »
I too like the Fennec. I wish we had some....
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #9 on: 08 February 2011, 11:13:20 »
Cappie fan? You guys have gotten plenty of goodies recently. I would know. CapCon is my other IS favorite  8)
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2011, 11:18:54 »
Cappie fan? You guys have gotten plenty of goodies recently. I would know. CapCon is my other IS favorite  8)

I think the O5P means they're a DCMS fan.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #11 on: 08 February 2011, 11:21:05 »
....it would really help if I actually looked at who posted first, huh?  #P

In that case, there's not much i can tell you other than "Enjoy the MRMs, buddy"
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #12 on: 08 February 2011, 11:35:57 »
Well, Yao Lien is, obviously, my favourite one.

Least favourite is Shen Yi. It's not that I don't like it, I just don't get it. Low speed, MRMs...

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #13 on: 08 February 2011, 11:40:30 »
Well, Yao Lien is, obviously, my favourite one.

Least favourite is Shen Yi. It's not that I don't like it, I just don't get it. Low speed, MRMs...

Well, to be fair, C3 and Snubbies make no sense either.... doesn't make it not fun though.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #14 on: 08 February 2011, 11:52:22 »
Well, to be fair, C3 and Snubbies make no sense either.... doesn't make it not fun though.
???
Why does a close-combat weapon make no sense on a backstabbing spotter\skirmisher?

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #15 on: 08 February 2011, 11:59:14 »
Because the utlity of a Snubbie only makes sense when you keep it in the 7-9 hex bubble where it's at short range and virtually no other weapon is. This essentially gives you a +2 bonus versus your opponents on TH modifers. Big advantage. However, as a spotter, the rest of your lance will be using your range modifier for their weapons. Unless they're all using Snubbies as well, in which case you have an entirely different issue to worry about (damage loss), they'll all still be in medium range while you're exploiting the one real reason for taking a Snubbie. It's far more logical to take an equal tonnage of weapons with standard range brackets, as you'll be able to get more damage bang for your buck, and the optimum range of your weapons will be short enough (under 7 hexes at least) that your lancemates will be getting a 0 range modifier. Snubbies can work the same way, but you lose the whole advantage of Snubbies in order to do so. I love Snubs for speedy backstabbers, but in a C3 network they suffer in the same way an MRM improves.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #16 on: 08 February 2011, 12:19:14 »
love the fluff of the yao lien, and how it got its look and everything, very interesting, i'm also very fond of the brahma entry with the BC pilot taking on a bunch of pirates in it
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #17 on: 08 February 2011, 12:21:24 »
Supplemental as a whole had some pretty solid fluff. I'm guessing having a little more time to play around with the designs was resonsible for that.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #18 on: 08 February 2011, 12:32:33 »
I'm jumping on the Fennec bandwagon.  It may use some obsolete tech, but standard PPC's make sense for the heat sinks it's carrying and its combat role.  It also fills a critical gap in the AFFS TO&E, allowing us to actually make decent use of all those mediums and lights with C3 Slaves we have.  If you had asked me going into TRO:3085 what single design I would most like to see in it for the Federated Suns, something much like the Fennec would be pretty close to the top of the list.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #19 on: 08 February 2011, 12:34:22 »
^Well I meant obsolete from a fluff standpoint. While ER PPCs are a valid choice, standard PPCs are almost always a better choice all around unless you're building a knife-fighter. It's simply more efficent for a relatively small difference in effect.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #20 on: 08 February 2011, 12:38:52 »
Well I have to go with the Fennec as well. As a FedSun player it was a very much needed machine.
The Victor VTR-9Ka is also very nice. 6 tons of ammo for a standard AC-20. That thing is going to scare light mechs 8)

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #21 on: 08 February 2011, 12:43:14 »
Because the utlity of a Snubbie only makes sense when you keep it in the 7-9 hex bubble where it's at short range and virtually no other weapon is. This essentially gives you a +2 bonus versus your opponents on TH modifers. Big advantage. However, as a spotter, the rest of your lance will be using your range modifier for their weapons. Unless they're all using Snubbies as well, in which case you have an entirely different issue to worry about (damage loss), they'll all still be in medium range while you're exploiting the one real reason for taking a Snubbie. It's far more logical to take an equal tonnage of weapons with standard range brackets, as you'll be able to get more damage bang for your buck, and the optimum range of your weapons will be short enough (under 7 hexes at least) that your lancemates will be getting a 0 range modifier. Snubbies can work the same way, but you lose the whole advantage of Snubbies in order to do so. I love Snubs for speedy backstabbers, but in a C3 network they suffer in the same way an MRM improves.
You should keep in mind one thing: CCAF is not the biggest user of C3 networks. So the chances are that most of the time Yao Lien will be used as a general skirmisher with an overpriced TAG.
Yes, snubbies are, probably, not the optimal choice for a spotter - but certainly not the worst. Thing is, Yao Lien is trying to be both a spotter for its possible C3-companions and a viable fighter on its own, and I'd say that it pretty much succeeds in both roles.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #22 on: 08 February 2011, 12:48:34 »
^While that may be true, a C3 network is a purpose-built organization in-universe. There' s absolutely no reason to include an expensive piece of equipment on a mech, just in case he and another mech with the same equipment are by chance assigned the same billet. C3 is designed to work at the lance level and above. As such, given its cost and weight, there is no reason to assign lancemates for a mech without the system. While the mech may find itself working with non-C3 mechs, it's assigned lance will be C3-equipped by virtue of necessity. Otherwise, the CCAF would have been far better off ordering a non-C3 mech to fill the hole in the non-C3 lance. It's a usable design, for sure, but Snubbies are an inefficient design chocie for any C3-equipped design.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #23 on: 08 February 2011, 12:57:52 »
Fennecs for the Davions. I'd have to look at the clanner stuff to see if there's anything I like.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #24 on: 08 February 2011, 13:31:50 »
as a Mercenary I am very fond of the upgrades to succession war mechs like the CN9-Ar and BNC-3Mr.  the cyclops upgrades are nice too.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #25 on: 08 February 2011, 13:49:17 »
Huh. There are way too many of these posts out there and I seem to have posted on the wrong one ><
« Last Edit: 08 February 2011, 14:35:47 by Decoy »

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #26 on: 08 February 2011, 13:53:05 »
Comstar Diplominator was a bit chagrined, but that's not surprising. The Prefect is a pretty kickass start to the RAF, however.

Lyran Diplominator got a few nice toys. They still haven't made a Battlemaster that tops the -4S, IMO, but I can live with. On the smaller side, I like the new Hatchetman and Wolfhound stuff. It's perverse how good Lyran lights are.

Jade Falcon Diplominator is still a little giddy. I could breathlessly extol the virtues of IJJ and the Flamberge (again), but instead I'd like to call attention to the Ironhold, especially the Ironhold [Fire]. It is sublime. Firepower some light mechs would be jealous of, ridiculous armor, flat-out immunity to fire. I'd take it over any other assault BA.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #27 on: 08 February 2011, 14:25:27 »
The Victor VTR-9Ka is also very nice. 6 tons of ammo for a standard AC-20. That thing is going to scare light mechs 8)

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #28 on: 08 February 2011, 14:25:49 »
The Victor VTR-9Ka is also very nice. 6 tons of ammo for a standard AC-20. That thing is going to scare light mechs 8)

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #29 on: 08 February 2011, 14:36:04 »
Well, to be fair, C3 and Snubbies make no sense either.... doesn't make it not fun though.

I'm not so sure.  While I agree that staying at seven hexes means you aren't capitalizing on the full range potential of the snub-nose, at seven hexes, it's the lightest weapon that will hit for 10 damage and still be at short range, and if your battle plan involves sticking to within 7 hexes of hostiles, there's really no reason to worry about it's ranged performance. 

If built with ER PPCs, the Yao Lien would have suffered serious heat issues and needed to shed other equipment.  If built with ER Large Lasers, it'd lose damage.  Standard range PPCs or Lasers would mean poor performance at optimum engagement range.  There simply aren't any better IS weapon choices for the job.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #30 on: 08 February 2011, 14:38:17 »
Fennec and MagClamp Infiltrator II come to mind immediately.  The AS8-D sounds promising, but I should probably wait to see the RS.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #31 on: 08 February 2011, 14:41:04 »
The record sheet is in TP: New Avalon....if you have that.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #32 on: 08 February 2011, 14:52:13 »
I do, as it so happens.  I'd forgotten it was in there.  Unfortunately, that cools my excitement.  The CT Snubbie, missiles in both torsos, and random SLs don't strike me as Atlas-y.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #33 on: 08 February 2011, 14:57:55 »
@MadCapellan
ERLLs would have dropped 4 damage in order to allow the mech to play as a good lancemate even if it ceased to be the spotter, as the ERLL is an excellent C3 weapon.

Massed ERMLs lose a lot of range, but at range 7 will still gain at least as much average damage even though it brings it to medium range.

LPL, even the IS version, will have the same TH at 7 hexes, better TH at knife-fighting range, do nearly the same damage, and do more for a single hex. Obviously this is all assuming you have teammates who are in short range at range 7, and you're planning on just mounting a one weapon pair such as on the Yao Lien. The options get even more varied as you expand the roles a spotter should be capable of. The Snubbie can get the job done, but why would you use it over other weapons?
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #34 on: 08 February 2011, 15:23:19 »
If it finds itself not actively spotting for something, a pair of snubbies go well with IJJ. Seriously, if you go through the decent IS mechs with IIJ, a huge amount of them mount one or usually two S-NPPCs. It's very...well, dense, for lack of better term, in that it has a lot of tons for each crit, which is handy since IJJ eat so many. Couple that with good damage, good accuracy to make up for jumping all the time, and the fact that IJJ work best for knife-fighters anyway, it's no surprise it's so common. I saw the dual S-NPPCs as a continuation of a larger trend in IJJ mechs, not necessarily a choice with the spotter role in mind.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #35 on: 08 February 2011, 15:34:44 »
If it finds itself not actively spotting for something, a pair of snubbies go well with IJJ. Seriously, if you go through the decent IS mechs with IIJ, a huge amount of them mount one or usually two S-NPPCs. It's very...well, dense, for lack of better term, in that it has a lot of tons for each crit, which is handy since IJJ eat so many. Couple that with good damage, good accuracy to make up for jumping all the time, and the fact that IJJ work best for knife-fighters anyway, it's no surprise it's so common. I saw the dual S-NPPCs as a continuation of a larger trend in IJJ mechs, not necessarily a choice with the spotter role in mind.

It's actually a great weapon for iJJs in general. Mechs with iJJs can usually dictate range fairly easily, and as such, can maintain that golden 7-9 hex bubble on most opponents. This brings the TH/TMM to even money if the Snubbed mech jumps, and gives you the advantage if you jump at least 3. Nice deal overall.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #36 on: 08 February 2011, 15:44:03 »
Favorite new toys...

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For the Marians? Ravagers. [drool]
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #37 on: 08 February 2011, 15:50:26 »
I'm not so sure.  While I agree that staying at seven hexes means you aren't capitalizing on the full range potential of the snub-nose, at seven hexes, it's the lightest weapon that will hit for 10 damage and still be at short range, and if your battle plan involves sticking to within 7 hexes of hostiles, there's really no reason to worry about it's ranged performance. 

If built with ER PPCs, the Yao Lien would have suffered serious heat issues and needed to shed other equipment.  If built with ER Large Lasers, it'd lose damage.  Standard range PPCs or Lasers would mean poor performance at optimum engagement range.  There simply aren't any better IS weapon choices for the job.
Hey, MadCap, may I ask what's your take on Shen Yi and its role?

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #38 on: 08 February 2011, 16:00:39 »
@MadCapellan
ERLLs would have dropped 4 damage in order to allow the mech to play as a good lancemate even if it ceased to be the spotter, as the ERLL is an excellent C3 weapon.

That's four damage I don't want to lose.  20 damage is a PSR, 16 isn't.  If my goal was to make a multi-role skirmisher, I might want the ER Larges, but the Yao Lien is an optimized spotter.  Performance past 7-8 hexes is irrelevent.

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Massed ERMLs lose a lot of range, but at range 7 will still gain at least as much average damage even though it brings it to medium range.
They'll also put the Yao Lien's heat through the roof.  With seven improved jump jets, there's no space for the sinks to handle it all.

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LPL, even the IS version, will have the same TH at 7 hexes, better TH at knife-fighting range, do nearly the same damage, and do more for a single hex.

It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #39 on: 08 February 2011, 16:09:15 »
Not to mention that if they have ECM, there goes your C3 spotting capability.


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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #40 on: 08 February 2011, 16:24:34 »
That's four damage I don't want to lose.  20 damage is a PSR, 16 isn't.  If my goal was to make a multi-role skirmisher, I might want the ER Larges, but the Yao Lien is an optimized spotter.  Performance past 7-8 hexes is irrelevent.

It's a spotter. If all you are hitting your target with is the spotter's weapons, then you are doing it wrong. So a PSR will come either way. 4 damage isn't fun to lose, but given the amount of additional flexibility it gives you within the unit, it is worthwhile. I can't tell you how often I've had a spotter quickly become a supporting unit due to the targets near him being killed and the rest of the opponent is near one of my other spotters. A spotter should focus on spotting first, but being able to hit for a full 8 damage at long range is a nice thing to have.

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They'll also put the Yao Lien's heat through the roof.  With seven improved jump jets, there's no space for the sinks to handle it all.
It takes 4 ERMLs to match the damage of 2 Snubbies. Even throwing in 2 more for extra damage to make the change worthwhile gives you 6 tons to play with. I'm at work so I don't have my TRO with me to check the crits and exacts, but that leaves a decent amount of tonnage to work with even if you are crit-shy. I can't delve any further into ways to get those crits back without my books, so I'm going to have to concede this one for the time being.

[/quote]
It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.
[/quote]
It's heavier but for better compatibility with the iJJs, and even better effectiveness in close range. And since when did you need to get within 3 hexes? The LPL is equally effective at 7 hexes as the Snubbie. You only lose 2 damage, which is negligable considering that you'll be throwing other ordanence at the target, as I stated above.

And again, those are only the weapons that I would sub while keeping the Yao Lien mostly intact. If tyou want to talk about straight efficiency, there are many weapons that just generally work better for spotters but would render the mech unrecognizable, which is a more general design-philosophy argument for another time.

I like the Yao Lien. It's got a great look, and excelelnt fluff. I just think that, efficiency being the only concern, it's lacking. I prefer flawed designs, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to improve the designs from an effectiveness standpoint.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #41 on: 08 February 2011, 16:32:03 »
I do, as it so happens.  I'd forgotten it was in there.  Unfortunately, that cools my excitement.  The CT Snubbie, missiles in both torsos, and random SLs don't strike me as Atlas-y.

Those aren't random SLs. They are there to keep the TSM going right at 9 heat.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #42 on: 08 February 2011, 16:35:21 »
Yeah, I figured.  It's the placement I thought was off.  Put at least 2 in the torso facing rear and the remainder anywhere but the legs.  But that's a personal preference issue really.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #43 on: 08 February 2011, 16:37:59 »
Your welcome!
Thank you MadCap. Don't get mad at me if I end up using it against some of your faster Capellan mechs one day. :P

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #44 on: 08 February 2011, 16:58:08 »
4 damage isn't fun to lose, but given the amount of additional flexibility it gives you within the unit, it is worthwhile. I can't tell you how often I've had a spotter quickly become a supporting unit due to the targets near him being killed and the rest of the opponent is near one of my other spotters.

Why do you have two spotters for the same lance at opposite ends of the board?  That's the only way to explain why a 'Mech with a 7 hex jump can't get in range of a target with 9 hexes of short range of a target your other spotter is on.  Splitting the fire of a C³ network like that is simply a waste, and you're just asking for trouble or to lose spotters.

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It takes 4 ERMLs to match the damage of 2 Snubbies.

If you're both standing still and at 4 hexes, maybe.  jumping at 7 hexes is an entirely different story.  Your chance of hitting is a full half that of the snub-nose PPCs assuming standard gunners.  You'd need 8 ER Medium Lasers to consistently deliver the same damage, and there's no way you are wedging 20 doubles on a Yao Lien, or any 55 tonner.

It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

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[Large Pulse Lasers are] heavier but for better compatibility with the iJJs, and even better effectiveness in close range. And since when did you need to get within 3 hexes?

When you said "more effective at close range".

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The LPL is equally effective at 7 hexes as the Snubbie.

except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.

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You only lose 2 damage, which is negligable considering that you'll be throwing other ordanence at the target, as I stated above.

It's hardly negligible when my only interest is doing the best damage I can at 7 hexes, which is what being a spotter is all about.


Quote
I prefer flawed designs, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to improve the designs from an effectiveness standpoint.

There really isn't a canon design out there that can't be improved.  The snub-nose PPC on the Yao Lien is hardly the thing to change about it, however.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #45 on: 08 February 2011, 17:13:42 »
Frankly, between the TRO and the suplimental there's too much to choose from.  I like the updates for old battle armor, flame resistant Elemntals  :D

I like all the new APCs, the effective and heavily armed vees going to the Republic and the Moltke going to Andurien.  The use of support vehicles like the Zugvogel and the Teppo are really nice examples of what can be done with those construction rules.

Mechs... well, less impressed.  The Treburana is a nice idea, the Orochi is a nice DC version of a GR boat.

And, how can I forget conventional infantry?!  That's a watershed moment.  For those of us who have championed combined arms against the nay says for so long, it's nice to see technology (in canon) finally make it's way through the entire depth of forces.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #46 on: 08 February 2011, 17:32:49 »
Hey, MadCap, may I ask what's your take on Shen Yi and its role?

The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #47 on: 08 February 2011, 17:36:46 »
Well, if you have some Vanquishers around, the Snubbie is a great C3 spotter for anything with LGRs.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #48 on: 08 February 2011, 17:37:37 »
The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.
If your opponent is stupid stubborn enough, it's probably a good choice for wading into the midst of a stationary gun line.  Not alone, of course.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #49 on: 08 February 2011, 18:54:50 »
I'm going to go against most of the other Davions to say the Cuirass. I'm a more aesthetic kind of fellow, and I just like that sword that it has. Plus, it's looks like it has a Phoenix Valkyrie's head muffled with a scarf. That's awesome.

Sure, someone really has to tell Robinson Standard Battleworks to start using double heatsinks more often  But that seems to be part of the charm of a Robinson made mech. Though I have to wonder if they were the ones who did the limited production run for the Suns on the AS8-D. Robinson Standard Battleworks does build Victors for the Suns, and it seems that Robinson Standard Battleworks is trying to replace the loss of Independence Weaponry for the Draconis March and the rest of the Suns.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #50 on: 08 February 2011, 19:32:45 »
The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.
A sad story, indeed. I was really looking forward to the fire-support platform that we first saw in the Liao Incursion dossiers (2 LRM-20, 1 LL), but it seems that it has to wait for some time along with Tian-zong. I can see SHY-3B as a specialized (and thus rare) refit for the urban combat, but as a basic variant... ugh.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #51 on: 08 February 2011, 21:19:46 »
I'm going to go against most of the other Davions to say the Cuirass. I'm a more aesthetic kind of fellow, and I just like that sword that it has. Plus, it's looks like it has a Phoenix Valkyrie's head muffled with a scarf. That's awesome.

It's not a great 'Mech, but I wouldn't describe it as bad.  The heat sinks are a marginal issue at worst, as they only really limit firing while jumping, and jumping & firing a RAC is a bit of a waste.  Varying of the RAC firing rate should make it simple enough to eliminate any overheating concerns, and RAC/5+ML+Sword is a pretty good combo for a mobile 40 tonner.  Considering the Cuiraiss' company in the forty-ton class, it's effective and classy.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #52 on: 08 February 2011, 21:38:00 »
I like the Cuirass a lot more than the Blade.  Could use TSM though.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #53 on: 08 February 2011, 21:38:27 »
I like the Cuirass a lot more than the Blade.  Could use TSM though.

That would have been wicked.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #54 on: 08 February 2011, 23:02:33 »
I like the Blade as kind of a mini Legionnaire. It's a specialist tool, bit weaker and less accurate than it's bigger brother, but it has some backup weapons.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #55 on: 08 February 2011, 23:25:42 »
Until you lose that arm.  Then you're screwed.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #56 on: 09 February 2011, 00:54:42 »
Think of it as an indicator on when you should retreat. *BOOM* The easily replaced weapon arm goes off, and you head back to base to get a new one put on.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #57 on: 09 February 2011, 02:59:37 »
The Shen Yi needs to be modded into an Inner Sphere Lupus.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #58 on: 09 February 2011, 11:02:53 »
Why do you have two spotters for the same lance at opposite ends of the board?  That's the only way to explain why a 'Mech with a 7 hex jump can't get in range of a target with 9 hexes of short range of a target your other spotter is on.  Splitting the fire of a C³ network like that is simply a waste, and you're just asking for trouble or to lose spotters.

Not two spotters. But when you drop the target you're spotting, the next available target might very well only be within spotting range of one of your other mechs, even if they're not of the spotter variety. Flankers especially end up doing this. it's less of a problem with smaller maps, as the 7 Jump you described will likely get you where you need to go, but the larger the playing area, the greater the risk of this occuring. It's a matter of added utility

Quote
If you're both standing still and at 4 hexes, maybe.  jumping at 7 hexes is an entirely different story.  Your chance of hitting is a full half that of the snub-nose PPCs assuming standard gunners.  You'd need 8 ER Medium Lasers to consistently deliver the same damage, and there's no way you are wedging 20 doubles on a Yao Lien, or any 55 tonner.
Assuming you're jumping every turn, and assuming you're sticking strictly to 7 hexes, which will limit your choice of lancemates somewhat. Artificial limitations on my point placed by individual tactical considerations, MadCap. You're better than that buddy  ;)

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It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

When you said "more effective at close range".

except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.


It is more effective at close range. Should be be heading into close range? No. But if you can argue that the Snubbie is more useful at long range, it's fully viable that I can argue the LPL is better at close range. It's a matter of added utility to the design, and which do you think you're more likely to have a spotter at? 3 hexes or 9?

Quote
except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.

Switching one LPL for an ERLL goes a long way to solving both problems.

Quote
It's hardly negligible when my only interest is doing the best damage I can at 7 hexes, which is what being a spotter is all about.

Only if your lancemates are all equipped strictly with weapons that come into short range at 7 hexes. It can be true a large portion of the time, but certainly not always.

It's not a great 'Mech, but I wouldn't describe it as bad.  The heat sinks are a marginal issue at worst, as they only really limit firing while jumping, and jumping & firing a RAC is a bit of a waste.  Varying of the RAC firing rate should make it simple enough to eliminate any overheating concerns, and RAC/5+ML+Sword is a pretty good combo for a mobile 40 tonner.  Considering the Cuiraiss' company in the forty-ton class, it's effective and classy.

A rare agreement between me and MadCap!  ;D
Let me second everything he said. The heat's very managable as long as you're not firing 6 shots a turn every turn, which you should be anyways. Is it great? No. But it's eminently usable.

Well, if you have some Vanquishers around, the Snubbie is a great C3 spotter for anything with LGRs.
And one of the only exceptions to my stance. Good call Kit, as usual. If you're playing mostly with weapons that can exploit the 8-9 point golden bubble that the Snubbie creates, then it's an excellent spotters weapon. It's just rarely the right choice for the job. Vanquishers aren't exactly common, and even less so in the CapCon.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #59 on: 09 February 2011, 13:29:01 »
Not two spotters. But when you drop the target you're spotting, the next available target might very well only be within spotting range of one of your other mechs, even if they're not of the spotter variety. Flankers especially end up doing this. it's less of a problem with smaller maps, as the 7 Jump you described will likely get you where you need to go, but the larger the playing area, the greater the risk of this occuring. It's a matter of added utility

Assuming the weapons I am spotting for were no more than 23 hexes away from the target (long range for an ER PPC) and I was spotting from 7 hexes to the target from the friendly side (to avoid ECM interference), if I jump seven hexes, I should be within nine hexes of anything between me and my gunline, & I've got three more hexes of equal coverage to a Large Laser beyond that for less heat than an ER Large.  I'd say someone further than that is unlikely enough that I don't want to lose 4 damage over it.

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Assuming you're jumping every turn, and assuming you're sticking strictly to 7 hexes, which will limit your choice of lancemates somewhat. Artificial limitations on my point placed by individual tactical considerations

Not really if we're discussing C3 spotting.  Getting closer than 7 hexes submits you to the enemy's ECM, rendering your mission pointless.  At 7 hexes, even standing still, you'll still need more than 4 ER Medium Lasers to equal or exceed the damage of the two SNPPCs, at which point, you won't be able to handle the heat.

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It is more effective at close range. Should be be heading into close range? No. But if you can argue that the Snubbie is more useful at long range, it's fully viable that I can argue the LPL is better at close range.

Those are hardly equal values for a C3 spotter.  At 9 hexes, my lance takes shots at medium instead of short range and I survive the turn.  At 3 hexes enemy ECM has likely cut your network, enemy MLs and SRMs are ripping into you, and unless you significantly outgun them or they're somewhat dullwitted, you'll have a crippled spotter at turns end.

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Only if your lancemates are all equipped strictly with weapons that come into short range at 7 hexes. It can be true a large portion of the time, but certainly not always.

Weapons with a 7 hex short range include LRMs, all Gauss, ER PPCs, & ER Large Lasers.  6 hexes means risking an ECM bubble.  Combining the fact that weapons with short range brackets of 6 or less are rarer and less desirable overall for C3 with the vulnerability to ECM makes it a bad choice.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2011, 19:31:55 by MadCapellan »

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #60 on: 09 February 2011, 14:09:58 »
Not really if we're discussing C3 spotting.  Getting closer than 7 hexes submits you to the enemy's ECM, rendering your mission pointless.  At 7 hexes, even standing still, you'll still need more than 4 ER Medium Lasers to equal or exceed the damage of the two SNPPCs, at which point, you won't be able to handle the heat.

ECCM. A C3 network is already a difficult thing to pull off these days since most players have a rough idea of the counters. You'll be hard pressed to stay out of 7 hexes of any enemy mech unless you move the spotter as the last unit in the movement phase and your opponent has spaced his mechs awfully far apart. It works early on as the forces are still closing, but it's a declining opportunity as the match goes. You can keep at 7 hexes of your spotted target and keep the other enemy mechs at a near-impossible TH pretty well, but to keep them all at least 7 hexes away isn't that easy. This makes ECM something you'll likely run into from turn to turn. ECCM is key if it's allowed, and if not, you'll be doing the same thing attempting to kill his ECM-carriers as he will your spotters.

Also, for ERMLs, that point is entirely dependent upon staying at 7 hexes. Which isn't always where you want to be for C3. MRms, for example, are fairly popular on C3 units. C3 isn't all about sticking at extreme ranges and plinking away. It's also about making weapons with poor range brackets usable in a more versatile combat role.

Quote
Those are hardly equal values for a C3 spotter.  At 9 hexes, my lance takes shots at medium instead of short range and I survive the turn.  At 3 hexes enemy ECM has likely cut your network, enemy MLs and SRMs are ripping into you, and unless you significantly outgun them or they're somewhat dullwitted, you'll have a crippled spotter at turns end.

Weapons with a 7 hex short range include LRMs, all Gauss, ER PPCs, & ER Large Lasers.  6 hexes means risking an ECM bubble.  Combining the fact that weapons with short range brackets of 6 or less are rarer and less desirable overall for C3 with the vulnerability to ECM makes it a bad choice.

Again, while 7 hexes might be ideal, 3 allows a whole range of options that you don't get that far out. Again, ECM is a problem, but isn't omnipresent or impossible to work around. The ability to bring traditionally "Medium Range Bracket" weapons into short range can allow generally underpowered designs to absolutely demolish enemy forces.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #61 on: 09 February 2011, 19:50:57 »
ECCM.

An advanced rule that the majority don't play with.  Even assuming that they do, ECCM simply means that the Yao Lien can counteract 1 ECM Suite.  2, and you're still off the network.  Considering the ever increasing frequency of ECM Suites, odds are pretty good that any target lance will have two.  Planning on running closer than 7 hexes is just too dicey, when running 7 from the target is still extremely effective and doesn't require putting your connection or spotter at risk.

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You'll be hard pressed to stay out of 7 hexes of any enemy mech unless you move the spotter as the last unit in the movement phase and your opponent has spaced his mechs awfully far apart.

Not really.  Your spotter should always have initiative priority for your force, and it should be easy enough to be 7 hexes away from the closest enemy unit.  If you lose initiative, dropping back to be at 9 hexes still gives your forces medium range without losing your spotter to enemy fire, which is generally what happens if you get closer.

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ECCM is key if it's allowed, and if not, you'll be doing the same thing attempting to kill his ECM-carriers as he will your spotters.

Problem being, his ECM Carrier is likely a 3/5 100 ton armor slab, and your spotter is a 55 ton XL engined skirmisher.  Also, his 3/5 100 ton armor slab is probably chilling right next to the rest of it's lance, while your skirmisher is out ahead of your force to spot.  If it wasn't, there'd be no need for a C³ network.

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MRms, for example, are fairly popular on C3 units.

C³ is very popular on MRM units.  It really shouldn't be phrased the other way.  C³ makes MRMs suck less.  MRMs don't do anything that C³ can't already do.  With their max range of 15, C³ on MRMs is a little silly, as your gunline has to be at Gauss medium range to even have a chance to hit.  There's really no need for a dedicated spotter in a MRM C³ lance.  A spotter moving rapidly ahead of a MRM lance just quickly outruns the missiles it's spotting for.   It's better to just move the whole lance in a loose formation so that they can give supporting fire to each other at point-blank range. 

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Again, while 7 hexes might be ideal, 3 allows a whole range of options that you don't get that far out. Again, ECM is a problem, but isn't omnipresent or impossible to work around. The ability to bring traditionally "Medium Range Bracket" weapons into short range can allow generally underpowered designs to absolutely demolish enemy forces.

Unfortunately, if you are talking about a Medium weight spotter, you are also entering a range at which the secondary close-range weapons of most 'Mechs (medium lasers, SRMs, etc) will cripple the spotter after a turn or two of fire, which basically means you are sacrificing an entire 'Mech for a turn or two of good shots.  I'd rather my spotter live because he didn't need to rush in close to get off pulse laser fire of his own, when I've got Gauss Rifles to deliver the heavy hitting down range.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #62 on: 10 February 2011, 10:54:20 »
An advanced rule that the majority don't play with. Planning on running closer than 7 hexes is just too dicey, when running 7 from the target is still extremely effective and doesn't require putting your connection or spotter at risk.

Not that dicey if you know where is ECM carriers are. Admittedly the issue of ECCM being an advanced rule is there, but among C3 players its actually fairly commonly used.

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Your spotter should always have initiative priority for your force, and it should be easy enough to be 7 hexes away from the closest enemy unit.  If you lose initiative, dropping back to be at 9 hexes still gives your forces medium range without losing your spotter to enemy fire, which is generally what happens if you get closer.

Agreed on the initiative issue, but to guarantee yourself position you need to win initiative on your opponent as well. Otherwise you could very well find yourself facing shorter ranges. Good for the rest of your lance, poor for the spotter. Better to be prepared than to assume the Random Number God favors you. Additonally, at 9 hexes your opponent is equally likely to be in middle range of your spotter. I'd rather be able to squeeze to close range and bring whole new classes of weapons to bear than to have to dance around losing much of the advantage of C3. A smart 55-tonner can stay alive for a turn or two against enemy fire without C3, it sure as all hell can do it with C3 and iJJs.

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Problem being, his ECM Carrier is likely a 3/5 100 ton armor slab, and your spotter is a 55 ton XL engined skirmisher.  Also, his 3/5 100 ton armor slab is probably chilling right next to the rest of it's lance, while your skirmisher is out ahead of your force to spot. 

In which case your opponent has already lost. When your opponent already has a huge range modifier advantage on you by benefit of C3, there is no merit to keeping all of your mechs in a little 12 hex bubble moving at 3/5. One of the first rules of fighting C3 networks is to get your ECM inside of your opponents lines. Mobility is key. Having some heavy assaults can increase survivability, but firepower for firepwoer the C3 lance would win nearly every time by virtue of simply hitting far more often, even if they don't have as much actual firepower.

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C³ is very popular on MRM units.  It really shouldn't be phrased the other way.  C³ makes MRMs suck less.  MRMs don't do anything that C³ can't already do.  With their max range of 15, C³ on MRMs is a little silly, as your gunline has to be at Gauss medium range to even have a chance to hit.  There's really no need for a dedicated spotter in a MRM C³ lance.  A spotter moving rapidly ahead of a MRM lance just quickly outruns the missiles it's spotting for.   It's better to just move the whole lance in a loose formation so that they can give supporting fire to each other at point-blank range. 

Not true at all. MRMs provide more punch for their size than almost any other weapon. They just have a pesky +1 modifier (manageable), and terrible range brackets. A very viable strategy is to use a mobile, MRM-heavy C3 lance packed to the brim with much higher damage potential than the OpFor can replicate with accuracy and using the C3 advantage to brute-force those same MRMs into an accurate bracket. It's a different type of C3 strategy than is typically used, but it's perfectly usable, and in terrain-heavier maps, often preferable to the traditional long-range strategy you describe.

Now, all that being said, I am going to say somethign you almost never hear on the internet: you've convinced me. While I still maintain all of my above points, as well as the point that Snubbies are far-from-ideal for C3, in the specific case of the Yao Lien, I've been wooed over to your side. Crunching the numbers, and given the way it's designed to be used, it isn't easy to fit much else weapons-wise on the Yao Lien that would function at least as well without changing any of the fundamental aspects of the design (Engine, Switch to Standard JJs, etc). As such, I'm conceding that the Yao Lien works best, given the rest of its design profiel, with Snubbies.  Bravo, MadCap, ya got me to admit to being wrong about something. I'm never going to hear the end of it  ;)
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #63 on: 10 February 2011, 11:46:39 »
Nah, don't sweat it.  We're discussing things for the purpose of greater understanding, not flaming each other for props.  If we've both learned something, then we win.  ;)

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #64 on: 10 February 2011, 12:01:43 »
Agreed on all points. Besides, this is two huge discussions we've had in the past week, and I'd like to think that if nothing else, we both made some very legitimate points in both that will be both relevant and enlightening to anyone else patient/bored enough to read them  :)
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #65 on: 11 February 2011, 07:11:36 »
TRO 3085 restored my interest in the game, and did so with some 'Mechs you might find very... average.

The TDR-10M Thunderbolt is easily my favorite, as it takes the design concept behind the aging TMP-3M (which had problems with targets beyond 3 hexes... you should see a TMP try to fight a ERML-laden BHKU Blackhawk Omni sometime, not pretty) and fixes its worst flaws. It does this by having no meaningful long range attack, but it's excellent within medium ranges.

After that, the SKW-2F Shockwave was very impressive to me. It offers a versatile heavy striking platform at a reasonable BV cost, and looks cool. It doesn't do anything amazingly special, but it has a reasonable weapons array and can do a lot of damage up close, helping us get over our over-abundance of Light Gauss with no close range punch to finish the job.

Then the ARC-9M Archer rounds out the machines I'm really fond of. Yes, I'm aware it's less durable than the ARC-4M or -8M, and its effective weapons range goes down a little... but it offers a new option we didn't have before. If you like the -4M or -8M, great! They're still available and still good machines. The -9M gives us a version that trades a little durability for the ability to pick out even better firing spots and disengage quickly if someone goes after it. To me, that trade-off is worth making and I prefer the -9M over the other versions (even while conceding they are still good 'Mechs and worth playing).

After that... Kopis BA and Longinus Magnetic BA fill out some real gaps in FWL-s infantry roles, and this has done a lot to revolutionize my forces.

Edit: JPArbiter mentioned the BNC-3Mr Banshee as well, and I have to agree. It is a boring design, but it is effective, intuitive and obvious, and should have been done back in 3050 (well, with regular MLs replacing the ERMLs, I suppose). It makes sense and adds some real 'zombie' to FWL-s forces. The GST-10 Ghost may also rise to some prominence at this rate, as our supply of Anvils presumably falls...
« Last Edit: 11 February 2011, 07:15:43 by GespenstM »

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #66 on: 11 February 2011, 09:14:43 »
I can get on board with most of those pretty well. The Kopis especially is downright devastating in defensive engagements. The Shockwave is also a very solid, dependable design. It's arguably the best of the "Walking RAC/5" designs that have been so prevalent lately, and the one I use most often.

The only one I'd argue with is the Ghost. The thing is honestly pretty terrible. Very low on firepower. I've not used one in an actual battle yet, but I can't justify such a low damage output unless I'm running a mobile sparring force, trying to plink enemies to death from a distance to buy time for my other forces.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #67 on: 11 February 2011, 10:32:24 »
The Kopis is probably one of my favorite Battle Armor designs.  A squad of them put Ontos to shame. (Ontos can't fire from the third floor of an office building!)

The stock Ghost is pretty terrible, but the Federated Suns first stealth 'Mech was pretty terrible as well (stealth Stealth).  It's real bad, but it's effectively a technology testbed.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #68 on: 11 February 2011, 10:33:52 »
The stock Ghost is pretty terrible, but the Federated Suns first stealth 'Mech was pretty terrible as well (stealth Stealth).  It's real bad, but it's effectively a technology testbed.

Aw, I like the Stealth Stealth. It's the only Stealth that can do damage past twelve hexes.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #69 on: 11 February 2011, 11:52:21 »
Aw, I like the Stealth Stealth. It's the only Stealth that can do damage past twelve hexes.

Not true!

You can do a 14-hex charge with the regular Stealth!

 :D
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #70 on: 11 February 2011, 11:57:54 »
And likely do more damage than you would from it's weapons!  [rockon]
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #71 on: 11 February 2011, 12:03:56 »
And likely do more damage than you would from it's weapons!  [rockon]

Ain't no likely about it. A 13-hex charge will do, IIRC, 52 points of damage, compared to 26 for a baseline Stealth alphaing and hitting with every SRM.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #72 on: 11 February 2011, 12:05:57 »
Plus 10 points of fisty abuse.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #73 on: 11 February 2011, 12:06:29 »
Plus 10 points of fisty abuse.

That's kind of between you and the Stealth, Kit.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #74 on: 11 February 2011, 12:11:36 »
That's kind of between you and the Stealth, Kit.

Well, with this internet generation....
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #75 on: 11 February 2011, 13:41:03 »
This has gotten extremely uncomfortable.....  ;)
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #76 on: 11 February 2011, 14:34:43 »
This has gotten extremely uncomfortable.....  ;)

Imagine how Kit and the Stealth feel!
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #77 on: 11 February 2011, 15:08:03 »
Apparently pretty good..... :o
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #78 on: 11 February 2011, 15:26:25 »
It's a very one-sided relationship. I literally use the Stealth.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #79 on: 11 February 2011, 19:56:59 »
IndyRI: The Ghost isn't as bad as it seems, once you realize it has some nice traits. Carrying MMLs lets it use Inferno SRMs, giving it some value in hunting battle armor, infantry, and tanks. This isn't a great use of it, but it's one thing it can do.

Plus with the Anvil stocks in decline (not gone, but we're not getting any replacements)... FWL-s relies on the Bloodhound B2-HND and the Ghost for most of its ECM duties. The Grand Titan N11M helps with this somewhat, as does the TDR-11SE Thunderbolt, but the Ghost has its value simply because it's one more machine that can fill this role.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #80 on: 14 February 2011, 09:47:17 »
Well from a faction perspective it makes a certain amount of sense due to the need for a quick-response ECM carrier in the former FWL. It's just the weapons make-up I'm not thrilled about. Infernos are nice with the MMLs, but to get them into range you risk exposing yourself to the minimum range on your Light PPCs, as well as mitigating the usefulness of your stealth armor. If the LPPCs were switched out for, say, an extra ML and upgrading the MMLs to 7 tubes, you'd even have space left over for either additional weapons or extra electronics. Or, on the reverse side, you could convert the MML 3s to LRMs and drop the laser, and play around with a long-range plinking sniper. As it is though, the Ghost just lacks the ability to play any actual role. It's a generalist without the durability or utlity to be a good trooper. If it had good flavor to it it'd be alright, but as it stands, it's kind of boring, which is the worst crime a mech can commit.
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