Author Topic: How different were Ian and Hanse? (Read 18264 times)

Dread Moores · « **on:** 15 February 2011, 02:27:13 »

I've been playing around with the idea that Ian survived in 3013, staying in power as First Prince. Alongside two other minor changes (the Dragoons stay with the Clans when they return in 3009, and the Clans not showing up until much later), it's been rolling around in my mind as a possible AU. But as I'm not the most familiar person with Davion material, I figured I'd ask around here for those that are. How different were the brothers? Was Ian simply another flavor of Hanse? Would there have been significant changes to FedSuns policy or activities?

Davout73 · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 February 2011, 02:35:01 »

At least according to the House Book, Ian Davion wanted to be a soldier first, second, and maybe third. Leading/governing the FedSuns as First Prince was not something he took a seriously as being in the cockpit of his Atlas. If he were seriously inuured on Mallory's World though, whoi knows?

Davout73

Syzyx · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 February 2011, 02:35:55 »

As I understand it Ian was something of a hothead. He was clearly a lead from the front sort and was tremendously popular with the military. In these things he is significantly different from Hanse. Was he as brilliant in rat-bastardry as his younger brother? That I don't think has ever been really explored.

Drop Bear · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 February 2011, 02:54:53 »

he liked to lead with his chin and have a strait fight, he was more Victor than Victor, it's why the Cappie march got away from him and he had to send in Hanse to clean up the mess he let happen through neglect.

he was a Succession Warrior and his designated enemy was the Combine.

If he had lived it would have given Hanse a chance to finish cleaning up the Cappie March the NAIS would have seen it's funding grow less rapidly. when the Steiner Peace was proposed Ian (if still around) would have bean less unenthusiastic about and given it to Hanse to sort out leading to something less far reaching.

as to Hanses Spouse well he may have ended up with the Mother instead of the Daughter and a different Fed-Com as "Victor" would not inherit both realms unless something happens to Melissa and her Heirs. all depends on how long Ian lives.

Guardsman · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 February 2011, 03:30:13 »

You propose an interesting premise. Hanse would be around, to help support Ian. He would still have a very rat-bastardly, sorry, rat-dastardly group of advisors. Certain things would be different, I doubt the Federated Commonwealth would ever come to pass, but I could still some monumental gains either against the Capellans or the Dracs. Wherever they put Hanse, he would have done better than the guy who did that job in the real storyline. And the cabinet would have kept things fairly close to the original script. So yeah, itâ€™d be interesting to play out.

Dirk Bastion · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 February 2011, 03:43:39 »

Someone once said that Ian was what every Taurian thought a proper Davion ruler would be like: always embroiled in war, always in the seat of his Atlas, and incapable of dealing in peace and politics.

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

Guardsman · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 February 2011, 03:55:18 »

Quote from: Dirk Bastion on 15 February 2011, 03:43:39

Someone once said that Ian was what every Taurian thought a proper Davion ruler would be like: always embroiled in war, always in the seat of his Atlas, and incapable of dealing in peace and politics.

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

You know, I bet the Taurians would queue up to volunteer their worlds for the site of his death. It'd be a nice feather in their cap to off a Davion Prince. It'd do wonders for the recruitment drive.

Rorke · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 February 2011, 06:59:21 »

The difference is that in the 3rd SW, the Taurians had no Grover Shraplen.

ArkRoyalRavager · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 February 2011, 08:46:40 »

Thomas Calderon was even more rabidly anti-Davion than Grover Shraplen.

BlackAce · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 February 2011, 09:20:48 »

But neither was he as big a fool.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:03:13 »

Quote from: Dirk Bastion on 15 February 2011, 03:43:39

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

Misery? I thought Ian died on Mallory's World.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:08:27 »

I'm wondering if Hanse wouldn't have ended up in a role like Quintus Allard did for Hanse, playing spy games against Michael Hasek-Davion, the Capellans, and the Dracs. That leaves Ian to focus on the direct combat, and Hanse to even play a bit of the hero, especially if Max still pursued the double thing (but against Ian), as Hanse could be the one to discover it in time. There's also the interesting part of not having the Dragoons for the 4th Succession War (though to be fair, the Dragon never would have had them to base the Ryuken off of).

I know some of you mentioned the FedCom not happening, or happening with Katrina. I'd propose that if it happened it wouldn't be much more than a favored trade status, and supply and intel sharing arrangement. I'm not sure I would see it as anything more than a non-aggression pact with some extra benefits, rather than the superstate formation.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:16:33 »

That's another point that would probably suffer from some changes...Michael Hasek-Davion. I'd wonder, if Hanse were free to concentrate on affairs in the Capellan March, wouldn't Michael have been found out sooner, and perhaps with more direct evidence of his actions? And would Ian, as First Prince, have even allowed Michael's line to keep a hold of the Capellan March? Or would we see a new family pick up there as Duke?

Taurevanime · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:34:08 »

Actually I think a far more frightening thing were to happen for the Capellan March. That being that Michael Hasek-Davion does not make a play to become First Prince. Because before the only thing standing in his way was that he was direct in line after Hanse, seeing as Hanse had no heir. But now with Ian still being First Prince, the next in line is Hanse and then himself. With all the information saying that Michael was a really shrewd and intelligent person, I don't think he would have made a play for power when he had to try and off two Davions before he could assume the throne.
Don't get me wrong he would still be the typical Hasek and Capellan March ruler in that he thinks the First Prince is ignoring his side of the realm, especially since Ian is off fighting the Combine at almost every opportunity.

ArkRoyalRavager · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:43:32 »

He actually encouraged that kind of thinking among his subjects and sabotaged his own forces to make Ian's Draconis March campaigns look even better, so he definitely wouldn't be the typical Capellan March ruler who advocated more support from New Avalon at every opportunity.

Dirk Bastion · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 February 2011, 10:45:53 »

Quote from: Dread Moores on 15 February 2011, 10:03:13

Misery? I thought Ian died on Mallory's World.

You are right. My bad.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 February 2011, 13:05:07 »

You might check out the soon-to begin Fan Council 3010 down in the RPG boards. A lot of similarities to the situation you propose (Dragoons went off chasing Wolverines, and Mallory's World won't come up for 3 years so Ian's still the man).

Taurevanime · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 February 2011, 13:13:32 »

Quote from: ArkRoyalRavager on 15 February 2011, 10:43:32

He actually encouraged that kind of thinking among his subjects and sabotaged his own forces to make Ian's Draconis March campaigns look even better, so he definitely wouldn't be the typical Capellan March ruler who advocated more support from New Avalon at every opportunity.

No Michael Hasek-Davion came to be duke of the Capellan March the same year that Ian Davion died on Mallory's world. So the way he acted was all dictated by the fact that Hanse was the only one in succession before him. I do not see him as being a loyal son to the Davion throne as his son was in the canon, but I really do not expect him to sell out to the Capellans in an effort to become First Prince.

Another interesting issue that would come up is the Free Worlds League. Didn't Hanse fund some of the factions in the civil war there to keep it going and destabilise the realm? Would Ian approve of such tactics?

Guardsman · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 February 2011, 14:38:13 »

That is an interesting point. Michael Hasek-Davion would still have desired the throne, but presumably, he would have been even more subtle about it. For example, if he targeted Hanse, suddenly heâ€™s second in line. And then, all heâ€™d have to do was waiting for Ian to die in battle. In such an event, Iâ€™d see it far more likely that Michael became First Prince, or being found out as complicit in the assassination / attempted assassination of Hanse.

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 February 2011, 14:43:53 »

Or plays the longer, less selfish game of getting Morgan into Ian's inner circle. Insinuating that Hanse is too ambitious, Morgan is more loyal to Ian, etc, and displacing Hanse as heir. Granted, that'd probably be damned hard, but we don't really know much about the brothers' relationship, do we? It'd be fun to explore.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 February 2011, 14:50:08 »

Perhaps Michael plays more directly into an early version of Doppleganger. A Hanse versus Fake Ian civil war has some real interesting ramifications in the 10's or 20's. Still even leaves room to incorporate the more heroic 4th Succession War version of Morgan...having him dash off to some CapCon planet to find the actual Ian. Brother against brother, father against son? Maybe. There's possibilities there.

Guardsman · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 February 2011, 14:53:46 »

I still wonder how the Capellans made a working, functioning clone, yet the more advanced Feds canâ€™t cure Marikâ€™s sick boy?

Arkansas Warrior · « **Reply #22 on:** 15 February 2011, 14:55:49 »

They didn't. the 'clone' was a normal man, surgically altered into a body double, then brainwashed.

Iron Mongoose · « **Reply #23 on:** 15 February 2011, 15:55:34 »

I think that Ian's greatest skill in leading was that he was happy to deligate. No need to watch the Cappellan March personaly with Hanse on the job. My personal thought is that with his attention undevided, Hanse is able to do more to stop Hasek's plotting, and so the Cappellan March becomes more stable, not less, for Ian's leadership. Of course, with Ian and his millitary attention on the DC bourder, one can expect plenty of action there, if not nessissarily progress (Takashi is hardly a push over and Kat's unlikely to distract too much attention in the years leading up to her peace innitive in 3020). And as for the other parts of the nation, like the economy, they'd be in the hands of ministers who are likely to be more expert in their fields than a warrior prince anyway, and so again, probably better off, asside from the economic drain of a continual war with the combine that is.

False Son · « **Reply #24 on:** 15 February 2011, 16:08:39 »

So if the Dragoons go back to the clans after their time in DC employ, does the whole Misery debacle go down? Without Wolf's Dragoons making a mockery of Takashi DC is only hamstrung in the 4SW by Orochi's impedment. This makes for a very different universe indeed.

Reaver · « **Reply #25 on:** 15 February 2011, 16:30:33 »

If Ian doesn't die on Mallory's world, then its hard to see how the 4th Succession War happens at all. So the fact that the Dragoons aren't on the Combine border in 3028 is of less significance.

Do we have any information on the relationship between Hanse and Ian? Everything I've seen suggests that they were close and that Hanse had Ian's back, and most of the posts here have presumed it, but you've got to admit that having a magnificent bastard like Hanse watching your back is dangerous. That could mean that Ian gets worried about Hanse or Hanse gets tired to doing the laundry.

Taurevanime · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 February 2011, 17:33:02 »

Well Hanse was always the reluctant Prince, he wasn't the eldest son so he had his own plans for his life, he seemed content not living in the limelight of princehood. He was an ambitious person, but never to the point of say killing his brother.

An interesting possibility is. Ian has Hanse as one of his top advisers and Operation Doppelganger happens just like in canon, with Hanse being the target and not Ian. Now the Capellans have an agent as the First Prince's most trusted adviser.

FedSunsBorn · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 February 2011, 17:36:33 »

The only way I see Hanse becoming a threat to Ian's continued rule would be if Ian was running the FedSuns into the ground with his constant wars against the Draconis Combine. Otherwise, I believe Hanse would have been content to let Ian rule from the frontlines while Hanse cleaned up alot of the more political problems that Ian either ignored, forgot about or actually caused since I read somewhere that Ian was hotheaded. Of course, Hanse was no slouch in a fight either and probably would have gotten the rest of the FedSuns whipped into shape in no time. Alot of good "what if" possibilties if Ian had not died.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 February 2011, 18:05:29 »

Quote from: False Son on 15 February 2011, 16:08:39

So if the Dragoons go back to the clans after their time in DC employ, does the whole Misery debacle go down? Without Wolf's Dragoons making a mockery of Takashi DC is only hamstrung in the 4SW by Orochi's impedment. This makes for a very different universe indeed.

Actually, if they go back in 3009, which is what I originally had listed above...that's before Anton's Civil War and their service with the Combine. So there's two pretty major things there that have some big ripple effects. No Dragoons for Anton, no Ryuken based from the Dragoons, no Misery, no focus on the Dragoons by Takashi during the 4th SW (if there even is one).

Dread Moores · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 February 2011, 18:06:57 »

Also, didn't Hanse have somebody he was involved with (or maybe had a kid with) before Melissa? That would likely factor in as well, since Hanse wouldn't need to marry for the sake of the throne.

Edit: There's also some really interesting ripples that affect ComStar. Without the FedCom (which I don't see near as likely in this scenario), would the Star have given designs/tech to the Combine? If the Clans would return much later, as I threw out in the opening post, I'm not sure I see a need for Waterly to be quite as TV villain-esqe. So I'm not sure I see an Op Scorpion actually taking place. That leads further to the question of whether the FRR ever comes to be. There's a whole lot of effects from that one little change.