How different were Ian and Hanse?

[Dread Moores]

I've been playing around with the idea that Ian survived in 3013, staying in power as First Prince. Alongside two other minor changes (the Dragoons stay with the Clans when they return in 3009, and the Clans not showing up until much later), it's been rolling around in my mind as a possible AU. But as I'm not the most familiar person with Davion material, I figured I'd ask around here for those that are. How different were the brothers? Was Ian simply another flavor of Hanse? Would there have been significant changes to FedSuns policy or activities?

[Davout73]

At least according to the House Book, Ian Davion wanted to be a soldier first, second, and maybe third.  Leading/governing the FedSuns as First Prince was not something he took a seriously as being in the cockpit of his Atlas.  If he were seriously inuured on Mallory's World though, whoi knows?

Davout73

[Syzyx]

As I understand it Ian was something of a hothead. He was clearly a lead from the front sort and was tremendously popular with the military. In these things he is significantly different from Hanse. Was he as brilliant in rat-bastardry as his younger brother? That I don't think has ever been really explored.

[Drop Bear]

he liked to lead with his chin and have a strait fight, he was more Victor than Victor, it's why the Cappie march got away from him and he had to send in Hanse to clean up the mess he let happen through neglect.

he was a Succession Warrior and his designated enemy was the Combine.

If he had lived it would have given Hanse a chance to finish cleaning up the Cappie March the NAIS would have seen it's funding grow less rapidly. when the Steiner Peace was proposed Ian (if still around) would have bean less unenthusiastic about and given it to Hanse to sort out leading to something less far reaching.

as to Hanses Spouse well he may have ended up with the Mother instead of the Daughter and a different Fed-Com as "Victor" would not inherit both realms unless something happens to Melissa and her Heirs. all depends on how long Ian lives.

[Guardsman]

You propose an interesting premise. Hanse would be around, to help support Ian. He would still have a very rat-bastardly, sorry, rat-dastardly group of advisors. Certain things would be different, I doubt the Federated Commonwealth would ever come to pass, but I could still some monumental gains either against the Capellans or the Dracs. Wherever they put Hanse, he would have done better than the guy who did that job in the real storyline. And the cabinet would have kept things fairly close to the original script. So yeah, it’d be interesting to play out.

[Dirk Bastion]

Someone once said that Ian was what every Taurian thought a proper Davion ruler would be like: always embroiled in war, always in the seat of his Atlas, and incapable of dealing in peace and politics.

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

[Guardsman]

Someone once said that Ian was what every Taurian thought a proper Davion ruler would be like: always embroiled in war, always in the seat of his Atlas, and incapable of dealing in peace and politics.

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

You know, I bet the Taurians would queue up to volunteer their worlds for the site of his death. It'd be a nice feather in their cap to off a Davion Prince. It'd do wonders for the recruitment drive.

[Rorke]

The difference is that in the 3rd SW, the Taurians had no Grover Shraplen. 

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Thomas Calderon was even more rabidly anti-Davion than Grover Shraplen.

[BlackAce]

But neither was he as big a fool.

[Dread Moores]

Take that as you will. I think that he'll bite the dust in battle sooner rather than later, even if he survives Misery, his tendency to lead from the front would make that inevitable.

Misery? I thought Ian died on Mallory's World.

[Dread Moores]

I'm wondering if Hanse wouldn't have ended up in a role like Quintus Allard did for Hanse, playing spy games against Michael Hasek-Davion, the Capellans, and the Dracs. That leaves Ian to focus on the direct combat, and Hanse to even play a bit of the hero, especially if Max still pursued the double thing (but against Ian), as Hanse could be the one to discover it in time. There's also the interesting part of not having the Dragoons for the 4th Succession War (though to be fair, the Dragon never would have had them to base the Ryuken off of).

I know some of you mentioned the FedCom not happening, or happening with Katrina. I'd propose that if it happened it wouldn't be much more than a favored trade status, and supply and intel sharing arrangement. I'm not sure I would see it as anything more than a non-aggression pact with some extra benefits, rather than the superstate formation.

[Dread Moores]

That's another point that would probably suffer from some changes...Michael Hasek-Davion. I'd wonder, if Hanse were free to concentrate on affairs in the Capellan March, wouldn't Michael have been found out sooner, and perhaps with more direct evidence of his actions? And would Ian, as First Prince, have even allowed Michael's line to keep a hold of the Capellan March? Or would we see a new family pick up there as Duke?

[Taurevanime]

Actually I think a far more frightening thing were to happen for the Capellan March. That being that Michael Hasek-Davion does not make a play to become First Prince. Because before the only thing standing in his way was that he was direct in line after Hanse, seeing as Hanse had no heir. But now with Ian still being First Prince, the next in line is Hanse and then himself. With all the information saying that Michael was a really shrewd and intelligent person, I don't think he would have made a play for power when he had to try and off two Davions before he could assume the throne.
Don't get me wrong he would still be the typical Hasek and Capellan March ruler in that he thinks the First Prince is ignoring his side of the realm, especially since Ian is off fighting the Combine at almost every opportunity.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

He actually encouraged that kind of thinking among his subjects and sabotaged his own forces to make Ian's Draconis March campaigns look even better, so he definitely wouldn't be the typical Capellan March ruler who advocated more support from New Avalon at every opportunity.

[Dirk Bastion]

Misery? I thought Ian died on Mallory's World.

You are right. My bad.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You might check out the soon-to begin Fan Council 3010 down in the RPG boards.  A lot of similarities to the situation you propose (Dragoons went off chasing Wolverines, and Mallory's World won't come up for 3 years so Ian's still the man).

[Taurevanime]

He actually encouraged that kind of thinking among his subjects and sabotaged his own forces to make Ian's Draconis March campaigns look even better, so he definitely wouldn't be the typical Capellan March ruler who advocated more support from New Avalon at every opportunity.

No Michael Hasek-Davion came to be duke of the Capellan March the same year that Ian Davion died on Mallory's world. So the way he acted was all dictated by the fact that Hanse was the only one in succession before him. I do not see him as being a loyal son to the Davion throne as his son was in the canon, but I really do not expect him to sell out to the Capellans in an effort to become First Prince.

Another interesting issue that would come up is the Free Worlds League. Didn't Hanse fund some of the factions in the civil war there to keep it going and destabilise the realm? Would Ian approve of such tactics?

[Guardsman]

That is an interesting point. Michael Hasek-Davion would still have desired the throne, but presumably, he would have been even more subtle about it. For example, if he targeted Hanse, suddenly he’s second in line. And then, all he’d have to do was waiting for Ian to die in battle. In such an event, I’d see it far more likely that Michael became First Prince, or being found out as complicit in the assassination / attempted assassination of Hanse.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Or plays the longer, less selfish game of getting Morgan into Ian's inner circle.  Insinuating that Hanse is too ambitious, Morgan is more loyal to Ian, etc, and displacing Hanse as heir.  Granted, that'd probably be damned hard, but we don't really know much about the brothers' relationship, do we?  It'd be fun to explore.

[Dread Moores]

Perhaps Michael plays more directly into an early version of Doppleganger. A Hanse versus Fake Ian civil war has some real interesting ramifications in the 10's or 20's. Still even leaves room to incorporate the more heroic 4th Succession War version of Morgan...having him dash off to some CapCon planet to find the actual Ian. Brother against brother, father against son? Maybe. There's possibilities there.

[Guardsman]

I still wonder how the Capellans made a working, functioning clone, yet the more advanced Feds can’t cure Marik’s sick boy?

[Arkansas Warrior]

They didn't.  the 'clone' was a normal man, surgically altered into a body double, then brainwashed.

[Iron Mongoose]

I think that Ian's greatest skill in leading was that he was happy to deligate.  No need to watch the Cappellan March personaly with Hanse on the job.  My personal thought is that with his attention undevided, Hanse is able to do more to stop Hasek's plotting, and so the Cappellan March becomes more stable, not less, for Ian's leadership.  Of course, with Ian and his millitary attention on the DC bourder, one can expect plenty of action there, if not nessissarily progress (Takashi is hardly a push over and Kat's unlikely to distract too much attention in the years leading up to her peace innitive in 3020).  And as for the other parts of the nation, like the economy, they'd be in the hands of ministers who are likely to be more expert in their fields than a warrior prince anyway, and so again, probably better off, asside from the economic drain of a continual war with the combine that is.

[False Son]

So if the Dragoons go back to the clans after their time in DC employ, does the whole Misery debacle go down?  Without Wolf's Dragoons making a mockery of Takashi DC is only hamstrung in the 4SW by Orochi's impedment.  This makes for a very different universe indeed.

[Reaver]

If Ian doesn't die on Mallory's world, then its hard to see how the 4th Succession War happens at all.  So the fact that the Dragoons aren't on the Combine border in 3028 is of less significance.

Do we have any information on the relationship between Hanse and Ian?  Everything I've seen suggests that they were close and that Hanse had Ian's back, and most of the posts here have presumed it, but you've got to admit that having a magnificent bastard like Hanse watching your back is dangerous.  That could mean that Ian gets worried about Hanse or Hanse gets tired to doing the laundry.

[Taurevanime]

Well Hanse was always the reluctant Prince, he wasn't the eldest son so he had his own plans for his life, he seemed content not living in the limelight of princehood. He was an ambitious person, but never to the point of say killing his brother.

An interesting possibility is. Ian has Hanse as one of his top advisers and Operation Doppelganger happens just like in canon, with Hanse being the target and not Ian. Now the Capellans have an agent as the First Prince's most trusted adviser.

[FedSunsBorn]

The only way I see Hanse becoming a threat to Ian's continued rule would be if Ian was running the FedSuns into the ground with his constant wars against the Draconis Combine. Otherwise, I believe Hanse would have been content to let Ian rule from the frontlines while Hanse cleaned up alot of the more political problems that Ian either ignored, forgot about or actually caused since I read somewhere that Ian was hotheaded. Of course, Hanse was no slouch in a fight either and probably would have gotten the rest of the FedSuns whipped into shape in no time. Alot of good "what if" possibilties if Ian had not died.

[Dread Moores]

So if the Dragoons go back to the clans after their time in DC employ, does the whole Misery debacle go down?  Without Wolf's Dragoons making a mockery of Takashi DC is only hamstrung in the 4SW by Orochi's impedment.  This makes for a very different universe indeed.

Actually, if they go back in 3009, which is what I originally had listed above...that's before Anton's Civil War and their service with the Combine. So there's two pretty major things there that have some big ripple effects. No Dragoons for Anton, no Ryuken based from the Dragoons, no Misery, no focus on the Dragoons by Takashi during the 4th SW (if there even is one).

[Dread Moores]

Also, didn't Hanse have somebody he was involved with (or maybe had a kid with) before Melissa? That would likely factor in as well, since Hanse wouldn't need to marry for the sake of the throne.

Edit: There's also some really interesting ripples that affect ComStar. Without the FedCom (which I don't see near as likely in this scenario), would the Star have given designs/tech to the Combine? If the Clans would return much later, as I threw out in the opening post, I'm not sure I see a need for Waterly to be quite as TV villain-esqe. So I'm not sure I see an Op Scorpion actually taking place. That leads further to the question of whether the FRR ever comes to be. There's a whole lot of effects from that one little change.

[False Son]

Actually, if they go back in 3009, which is what I originally had listed above...that's before Anton's Civil War and their service with the Combine. So there's two pretty major things there that have some big ripple effects. No Dragoons for Anton, no Ryuken based from the Dragoons, no Misery, no focus on the Dragoons by Takashi during the 4th SW.

...but that wouldn't make sense.  Without completing their service either fighting for or against every house military the whole point of the Dragoons in the Inner Sphere is moot.  If there are no Dragoons to help Anton, the revolt prolly doesn't kick off.  If the revolt doesn't happen Janos and the League would be in much better shape.

And if they stay in the homeworlds in 3009 that means no battle against the ELH on Hesperus, and thus no severing othe ELH's relationship with House Steiner.  All things to think about.

[Dread Moores]

...but that wouldn't make sense.  Without completing their service either fighting for or against every house military the whole point of the Dragoons in the Inner Sphere is moot.  If there are no Dragoons to help Anton, the revolt prolly doesn't kick off.  If the revolt doesn't happen Janos and the League would be in much better shape.

And if they stay in the homeworlds in 3009 that means no battle against the ELH on Hesperus, and thus no severing othe ELH's relationship with House Steiner.  All things to think about.

Oh, there's definitely work that would need to be done, regarding why the Dragoons would stay at home on that particular supply run in '09. No doubt about that. It was simply the first supply run I noticed on the timeline, when looking in that era, as I was looking for a situation in which the Clans don't come into the picture until later (if at all).

Good catch on the ELH fight. I had totally forgotten about that.

[False Son]

Well, if the clans aren't entering the picture as canon then yeah, you can play with the Dragoons a bit more.  You could always say without Hanse's wedding on Terra Jaime Wolf had no opportunity to cause a scene and thus carried his grudge back to the homeworlds, end of story.

[Dread Moores]

Does Ian have motivating factors to actually accept Katrina's proposal? Is there any major reason for the Federated Commonwealth, rather than an expanded trade/non-aggression pact? I'm not sure I always understood Hanse's motivations for doing so, but Ian...perhaps even less so. He has Hanse behind him as someone who can take the throne, so there's less need for immediate dynastic succession.

[Guardsman]

Does Ian have motivating factors to actually accept Katrina's proposal? Is there any major reason for the Federated Commonwealth, rather than an expanded trade/non-aggression pact? I'm not sure I always understood Hanse's motivations for doing so, but Ian...perhaps even less so. He has Hanse behind him as someone who can take the throne, so there's less need for immediate dynastic succession.

Merging two realms, if it can be achieved, is always preferable to simply allying yourself with them. The problem is that no two realms could merge willingly that are flanked by another. You have to go across the divide. There’s too much bad blood for that to ever work.

[Oddball]

Hello.

I'm a little confused.  Many of you mentioned the Dragoons would not be with House Davion in 3028 if Ian had not died.  Could someone walk me through why?  Wouldn't the Dragoons have still wanted to be employed with each House, ending up with Kurita in 3025ish?  Wouldn't the Dracs still have hacked them off, and consequently wouldn't they still have sought asylum in the FS?  What am I missing?  Thanks.

[Dread Moores]

Oddball:

Alongside two other minor changes (the Dragoons stay with the Clans when they return in 3009, and the Clans not showing up until much later),

That's one of the things I had in the initial post, and is likely what folks are building off of when mentioning the Dragoons.

Merging two realms, if it can be achieved, is always preferable to simply allying yourself with them. The problem is that no two realms could merge willingly that are flanked by another. You have to go across the divide. There’s too much bad blood for that to ever work.

Merging realms certainly comes with benefits. Does it outweigh the potential problems? That's the question. And Katrina's initial proposals were not outright mergers, but peace proposals. Through later negotiations with Hanse, they certainly became a merger. That doesn't mean that Ian would feel the same way, as he doesn't have the immediate problem Hanse faced by having no heir. That was what I was thinking more of. Without the need for a dynastic union right that very moment, perhaps the talks take on a much slower tone. Start with improved trade treaties, favored nation status, open up the Lyran and Davion military markets to each other in a big way. Throw in some non-aggression pacts, maybe a few simple shared defense clauses or trading off successful mercenary unit contracts. But this would take place over a longer span of time, since Hanse is waiting in the wings, should Ian fall. It might actually lead to a stronger FedCom, since issues could be worked out in advance if the pace of the union is slower to develop. Just some random thoughts.

[Guardsman]

Oddball:

That's one of the things I had in the initial post, and is likely what folks are building off of when mentioning the Dragoons.

Merging realms certainly comes with benefits. Does it outweigh the potential problems? That's the question. And Katrina's initial proposals were not outright mergers, but peace proposals. Through later negotiations with Hanse, they certainly became a merger. That doesn't mean that Ian would feel the same way, as he doesn't have the immediate problem Hanse faced by having no heir. That was what I was thinking more of. Without the need for a dynastic union right that very moment, perhaps the talks take on a much slower tone. Start with improved trade treaties, favored nation status, open up the Lyran and Davion military markets to each other in a big way. Throw in some non-aggression pacts, maybe a few simple shared defense clauses or trading off successful mercenary unit contracts. But this would take place over a longer span of time, since Hanse is waiting in the wings, should Ian fall. It might actually lead to a stronger FedCom, since issues could be worked out in advance if the pace of the union is slower to develop. Just some random thoughts.

Wasn’t there quite a number of years between initial discussions and formal alliance being signed, plus Hanse waited until Melissa was seventeen or eighteen, didn’t he? She was a number of years younger when the treaty was actually signed. Nice of the old grandfatherly type, wasn’t it?

[Arkansas Warrior]

IIRC the initial talks were in '20 and the marriage was in '28, when Hanse and Melissa were 45 and 18, respectively.

[Guardsman]

IIRC the initial talks were in '20 and the marriage was in '28, when Hanse and Melissa were 45 and 18, respectively.

Nice work if you can get it.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Except for the early death part.

[Dread Moores]

Wasn’t there quite a number of years between initial discussions and formal alliance being signed

Definitely. I was just suggesting that perhaps this version would be more in the timeframe of decades versus years.

[Guardsman]

Except for the early death part.

He lived sixty-nine years, and was only cut so short due to the stress from the Clan Invasion. And he was arguably the finest ruler, of any House, that the Inner Sphere has ever known.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The average citizenry of New Avalon lives to over a hundred.  Double Hanse's years is not out of the question.

[Reaver]

Hello.

I'm a little confused.  Many of you mentioned the Dragoons would not be with House Davion in 3028 if Ian had not died.  Could someone walk me through why?  Wouldn't the Dragoons have still wanted to be employed with each House, ending up with Kurita in 3025ish?  Wouldn't the Dracs still have hacked them off, and consequently wouldn't they still have sought asylum in the FS?  What am I missing?  Thanks.

I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.

[Guardsman]

The average citizenry of New Avalon lives to over a hundred.  Double Hanse's years is not out of the question.

Yeah, but the best years are far behind you back then. It's like the people who are slowly killing themselves with cigarettes, booze, or drugs. They're taking years off their lives at the bad end.

[Dread Moores]

Yeah, but the best years are far behind you back then. It's like the people who are slowly killing themselves with cigarettes, booze, or drugs. They're taking years off their lives at the bad end.

If some of the descriptions out of JHS: Terra, regarding the Terran population, are any indication of what major industrialized worlds of the Inner Sphere can do in terms of medicine...honestly, 100 is the new 40.

[Guardsman]

If some of the descriptions out of JHS: Terra, regarding the Terran population, are any indication of what major industrialized worlds of the Inner Sphere can do in terms of medicine...honestly, 100 is the new 40.

That makes Phillip's Drummond's being a MechWarrior at 112 sound somehow less impressive.

[Dread Moores]

I actually thought it made it sound more believable. Keep in mind, there's also some hyperbole in my previous post. JHS: Terra does seem to show that ripe old age is quite a bit above what we might consider it today, at least for the Terrans. A little quote for refernce:

JHS: Terra pg. 166
While Terran medical knowledge has not advanced much beyond
that of the Star League, it is still sufficient to keep the average
Terran alive for 150 years. Middle age among Terrans is usually
considered to reach until the 110s or so; many adults start their
families in their 70s and 80s,

On a non-Terran capital world like New Avalon, you could probably cut those numbers down some. I'd still imagine they are higher than we see now. No idea how that would apply in the Clan homeworlds, but it helps me understand Jamie Wolf, or Drummond, or any of the others in a Mech cockpit at over 100 years of age.

[Guardsman]

I actually thought it made it sound more believable. Keep in mind, there's also some hyperbole in my previous post. JHS: Terra does seem to show that ripe old age is quite a bit above what we might consider it today, at least for the Terrans. A little quote for refernce:

On a non-Terran capital world like New Avalon, you could probably cut those numbers down some. I'd still imagine they are higher than we see now. No idea how that would apply in the Clan homeworlds, but it helps me understand Jamie Wolf, or Drummond, or any of the others in a Mech cockpit at over 100 years of age.

A lot of Clan Warriors don’t reach 25. The average Terran lives for 6 times that number. No wonder they want Terra so bad!

[Dread Moores]

Well, now you're talking about apples or oranges. Or civilians and soldiers in this case. :)

It would be interesting to see if there is an average age given for Clan civvies somewhere, to see what the differences are.

[Guardsman]

Well, now you're talking about apples or oranges. Or civilians and soldiers in this case. :)

It would be interesting to see if there is an average age given for Clan civvies somewhere, to see what the differences are.

It would definitely be lower. Terrans may have some form of Medicare, old age pensions. The Clans view that as a waste of resources.

[False Son]

I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.

But, the whole thing is that the feud between the Dracs and Dragoons was formally "announced" at Hanse and Melissa's wedding.  If Hanse and Melissa don't have their wedding Jaime doesn't berrate Takashi in front of everyone.  The same incident is when Jaime offers the Dragoons to Hanse, thus starting the whole Death to Mercenaries situation.  Maybe the Dragoons would have stuck around to get revenge... but would the 4th SW even happen without the great enemy Hanse to start it?

[Oddball]

I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.

Thanks that clears it up. 

But, the whole thing is that the feud between the Dracs and Dragoons was formally "announced" at Hanse and Melissa's wedding.  If Hanse and Melissa don't have their wedding Jaime doesn't berrate Takashi in front of everyone.  The same incident is when Jaime offers the Dragoons to Hanse, thus starting the whole Death to Mercenaries situation.  Maybe the Dragoons would have stuck around to get revenge... but would the 4th SW even happen without the great enemy Hanse to start it?

That makes sense. If there is no insult, then there is no Takashi crazily trying to kill the Dragoons during the 4th SW (if there was one) above all other concerns.  However, I kind of figure Jamie would have found a way to make the insult anyway...  It just would have been less dramatic.

[VF1LAM]

I'm not sure what Ian Davion looked like, but according to an illustration in the original Federated Suns sourcebook, Hanse Davion looked like Captain Kirk in 3013. ::)

[Guardsman]

I'm not sure what Ian Davion looked like, but according to an illustration in the original Federated Suns sourcebook, Hanse Davion looked like Captain Kirk in 3013. ::)

KHAAANNNN!

[Nibs]

KHAAANNNN!

MAXXXXXXXX!

[Guardsman]

MAXXXXXXXX!

Oh, quite right, Khan doesn't appear until 3050 or so.

[Demon55]

Ian died surrounded by his mech's cockpit and Hanse died surrounded by his office.  The later got ripped off and the former went out with style.

[Guardsman]

Ian died surrounded by his mech's cockpit and Hanse died surrounded by his office.  The later got ripped off and the former went out with style.

The Clans would have certainly preferred to go out like Ian Davion.

[Lore]

Ian died surrounded by his mech's cockpit and Hanse died surrounded by his office.  The later got ripped off and the former went out with style.

Unfortunately, I think Hanse died as he [later] lived. Too tied up with a desk-job.

[Guardsman]

Unfortunately, I think Hanse died as he [later] lived. Too tied up with a desk-job.

Yet, Hanse Davion will forever be remembered for the time he stood up to the Death Commando.

[jklantern]

Yet, Hanse Davion will forever be remembered for the time he stood up to the Comguard.

He did beat one of them with an arm.

[Guardsman]

He did beat one of them with an arm.

Of course, nobody in universe knew at the time it was the ComGuards.

[jklantern]

Of course, nobody in universe knew at the time it was the ComGuards.

Of course.  And either way, it's still pretty hardcore.  It's one of the reasons Hanse is one of the few Davions I actually like.  The dude had some brass ones.

[Arkansas Warrior]

He did beat one of them with an arm.

You know what that reminds me of?  Picture Hanse playing chess with Victor.  Dialogue ensues:
 
Melissa: He made a fair move. Screaming about it won't help you.

Morgan Hasek-Davion: (interrupting) Let him have it. It's not wise to upset Hanse.

Melissa: But sir, nobody worries about upsetting Victor.

Morgan: That's 'cause Victor don't pull people's arms out of their socket
when they lose. Hanse is known to do that.

Melissa: I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, Victor. Let
your father win.

[Guardsman]

Of course.  And either way, it's still pretty hardcore.  It's one of the reasons Hanse is one of the few Davions I actually like.  The dude had some brass ones.

Two of them, very large.

[Guardsman]

You know what that reminds me of?  Picture Hanse playing chess with Victor.  Dialogue ensues:
 
Melissa: He made a fair move. Screaming about it won't help you.

Morgan Hasek-Davion: (interrupting) Let him have it. It's not wise to upset Hanse.

Melissa: But sir, nobody worries about upsetting Victor.

Morgan: That's 'cause Victor don't pull people's arms out of their socket
when they lose. Hanse is known to do that.

Melissa: I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, Victor. Let
your father win.

Hehe.

[Taurevanime]

Victor had some big ones too for the whole assassination attempt on him during his visit to Luthien.

Back on topic. Morgan Hasek-Davion becomes another change in the universe I bet. With Ian still on the throne, Hanse won't have him assigned to the Davion Heavy Guards, nor will he be Hanse's designated heir.
So the question is. Will Morgan still become estranged from his father for being pro-Davion, or will he do the typical Hasek thing and go in the Syrtis Fusiliers rather than the Heavy Guards, so on and so forth. Something to think about.

[Dread Moores]

There's an interesting possibility there. Let's say that Hanse becomes Ian's second, a bit less of a direct action fellow, and more of a schemer. Sort of Ian's version of Quintus, as Quintus was for Hanse. Hanse could make the case to convince Ian to take Morgan with him, serving in the Draconis March against the Combine. It serves to undercut Michael's power structure a bit, and binds Morgan to Ian more directly.

If you want to go with a bit more of the space opera focus...that becomes all the more interesting if Max would pull off Doppleganger, and replace Ian in this case. Morgan and fake Ian against Hanse, who is forced to go to Michael for support? It's almost Free Worlds-esque. ;)

[Guardsman]

There's an interesting possibility there. Let's say that Hanse becomes Ian's second, a bit less of a direct action fellow, and more of a schemer. Sort of Ian's version of Quintus, as Quintus was for Hanse. Hanse could make the case to convince Ian to take Morgan with him, serving in the Draconis March against the Combine. It serves to undercut Michael's power structure a bit, and binds Morgan to Ian more directly.

If you want to go with a bit more of the space opera focus...that becomes all the more interesting if Max would pull off Doppleganger, and replace Ian in this case. Morgan and fake Ian against Hanse, who is forced to go to Michael for support? It's almost Free Worlds-esque. ;)

If Morgan Hasek-Davion grew upon New Syrtis rather than New Avalon, ooh, the possibilities. The man had talents, but he had no sinister ambitions. He was gallant. Put that same person into that den of vipers, being twisted and groomed by his father, he could have proven to be a bit of a Katrina Steiner-Davion.

[Iron Mongoose]

I see Max and Doppleganger mentioned often, but with Ian on the throne, would Max risk it?  After all, Ian was very committed to fighting the Snakes, and despite some significant fighting on the CC front (though if the Dragoons leave in 09, no New Argon) he never really had it in for the CC.  Hanse didn't either, but I think as a more sensable and more level headed leader, he represented a greater threat than single minded Ian.

I think with Ian on the throne, or more likely in his Atlas on the DC front, Max has a lot less of a reason to side with Takashi in any sort of alliance like Kyptan.  Janos may if faced with a Steiner Davion alliance, if Kat can pull it off with Ian at the helm, but he was always luke warm about it anyway.  The resualt is that the DC and FS are largely left to slug it out between themselves, I think.  Max sits back and works Janos over (with out with out the Dragoons, he'd try and play Anton somehow) and hopes that the Haseks keep Hanse too occupied to really do too much to them. 

Though with Max, anything's possible.

[Nibs]

I see Max and Doppleganger mentioned often, but with Ian on the throne, would Max risk it?  After all, Ian was very committed to fighting the Snakes, and despite some significant fighting on the CC front (though if the Dragoons leave in 09, no New Argon) he never really had it in for the CC.  Hanse didn't either, but I think as a more sensable and more level headed leader, he represented a greater threat than single minded Ian.

I think with Ian on the throne, or more likely in his Atlas on the DC front, Max has a lot less of a reason to side with Takashi in any sort of alliance like Kyptan.  Janos may if faced with a Steiner Davion alliance, if Kat can pull it off with Ian at the helm, but he was always luke warm about it anyway.  The resualt is that the DC and FS are largely left to slug it out between themselves, I think.  Max sits back and works Janos over (with out with out the Dragoons, he'd try and play Anton somehow) and hopes that the Haseks keep Hanse too occupied to really do too much to them. 

Though with Max, anything's possible.

Yup. Max would need to make a sane decision before he could use your logic.

[Guardsman]

Yup. Max would need to make a sane decision before he could use your logic.

Guardsman looks concerned. Are you on drugs? Mad Max does not make sane decisions, nor does he have any comprehension for this logic, of which you speak. :D

[Nibs]

Guardsman looks concerned. Are you on drugs? Mad Max does not make sane decisions, nor does he have any comprehension for this logic, of which you speak. :D

No one needs to be concerned about Nibs!  :D

And Max was perfectly sane. Just incompetent.

[Guardsman]

No one needs to be concerned about Nibs!  :D

And Max was perfectly sane. Just incompetent.

There was a time when he was competent, and quite sane, even potentially a devastating ruler. Didn't he contract a disease, after which he was very different. I remember reading something about in the House Liao book, the original one.

[Dread Moores]

Yeah, that disease was called the Fourth Succession War. Without it, I'd wager he'd be a very different ruler. And Iron Mongoose, you may well be right. Hanse was rather motivated to go after Max and the CapCon because of Doppleganger. Ian, on the other hand, was quite focused on the Dragon. Without Doppleganger, I don't know that either of the brothers would have concentrated there.

[Guardsman]

Yeah, that disease was called the Fourth Succession War. Without it, I'd wager he'd be a very different ruler. And Iron Mongoose, you may well be right. Hanse was rather motivated to go after Max and the CapCon because of Doppleganger. Ian, on the other hand, was quite focused on the Dragon. Without Doppleganger, I don't know that either of the brothers would have concentrated there.

Cute, but I was referring to an actual bit of plot from the canon.