Author Topic: How different were Ian and Hanse?  (Read 18265 times)

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #30 on: 15 February 2011, 18:14:52 »
Actually, if they go back in 3009, which is what I originally had listed above...that's before Anton's Civil War and their service with the Combine. So there's two pretty major things there that have some big ripple effects. No Dragoons for Anton, no Ryuken based from the Dragoons, no Misery, no focus on the Dragoons by Takashi during the 4th SW.

...but that wouldn't make sense.  Without completing their service either fighting for or against every house military the whole point of the Dragoons in the Inner Sphere is moot.  If there are no Dragoons to help Anton, the revolt prolly doesn't kick off.  If the revolt doesn't happen Janos and the League would be in much better shape.

And if they stay in the homeworlds in 3009 that means no battle against the ELH on Hesperus, and thus no severing othe ELH's relationship with House Steiner.  All things to think about.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #31 on: 15 February 2011, 18:26:15 »
...but that wouldn't make sense.  Without completing their service either fighting for or against every house military the whole point of the Dragoons in the Inner Sphere is moot.  If there are no Dragoons to help Anton, the revolt prolly doesn't kick off.  If the revolt doesn't happen Janos and the League would be in much better shape.

And if they stay in the homeworlds in 3009 that means no battle against the ELH on Hesperus, and thus no severing othe ELH's relationship with House Steiner.  All things to think about.

Oh, there's definitely work that would need to be done, regarding why the Dragoons would stay at home on that particular supply run in '09. No doubt about that. It was simply the first supply run I noticed on the timeline, when looking in that era, as I was looking for a situation in which the Clans don't come into the picture until later (if at all).

Good catch on the ELH fight. I had totally forgotten about that.

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #32 on: 15 February 2011, 19:21:18 »
Well, if the clans aren't entering the picture as canon then yeah, you can play with the Dragoons a bit more.  You could always say without Hanse's wedding on Terra Jaime Wolf had no opportunity to cause a scene and thus carried his grudge back to the homeworlds, end of story.
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #33 on: 15 February 2011, 19:34:26 »
Does Ian have motivating factors to actually accept Katrina's proposal? Is there any major reason for the Federated Commonwealth, rather than an expanded trade/non-aggression pact? I'm not sure I always understood Hanse's motivations for doing so, but Ian...perhaps even less so. He has Hanse behind him as someone who can take the throne, so there's less need for immediate dynastic succession.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #34 on: 15 February 2011, 21:37:26 »
Does Ian have motivating factors to actually accept Katrina's proposal? Is there any major reason for the Federated Commonwealth, rather than an expanded trade/non-aggression pact? I'm not sure I always understood Hanse's motivations for doing so, but Ian...perhaps even less so. He has Hanse behind him as someone who can take the throne, so there's less need for immediate dynastic succession.

Merging two realms, if it can be achieved, is always preferable to simply allying yourself with them. The problem is that no two realms could merge willingly that are flanked by another. You have to go across the divide. There’s too much bad blood for that to ever work.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Oddball

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • When we go into battle we play music, very loud.
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #35 on: 15 February 2011, 21:52:32 »
Hello.

I'm a little confused.  Many of you mentioned the Dragoons would not be with House Davion in 3028 if Ian had not died.  Could someone walk me through why?  Wouldn't the Dragoons have still wanted to be employed with each House, ending up with Kurita in 3025ish?  Wouldn't the Dracs still have hacked them off, and consequently wouldn't they still have sought asylum in the FS?  What am I missing?  Thanks.

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #36 on: 15 February 2011, 22:04:37 »
Oddball:

Alongside two other minor changes (the Dragoons stay with the Clans when they return in 3009, and the Clans not showing up until much later),

That's one of the things I had in the initial post, and is likely what folks are building off of when mentioning the Dragoons.

Merging two realms, if it can be achieved, is always preferable to simply allying yourself with them. The problem is that no two realms could merge willingly that are flanked by another. You have to go across the divide. There’s too much bad blood for that to ever work.

Merging realms certainly comes with benefits. Does it outweigh the potential problems? That's the question. And Katrina's initial proposals were not outright mergers, but peace proposals. Through later negotiations with Hanse, they certainly became a merger. That doesn't mean that Ian would feel the same way, as he doesn't have the immediate problem Hanse faced by having no heir. That was what I was thinking more of. Without the need for a dynastic union right that very moment, perhaps the talks take on a much slower tone. Start with improved trade treaties, favored nation status, open up the Lyran and Davion military markets to each other in a big way. Throw in some non-aggression pacts, maybe a few simple shared defense clauses or trading off successful mercenary unit contracts. But this would take place over a longer span of time, since Hanse is waiting in the wings, should Ian fall. It might actually lead to a stronger FedCom, since issues could be worked out in advance if the pace of the union is slower to develop. Just some random thoughts.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #37 on: 15 February 2011, 22:36:11 »
Oddball:

That's one of the things I had in the initial post, and is likely what folks are building off of when mentioning the Dragoons.

Merging realms certainly comes with benefits. Does it outweigh the potential problems? That's the question. And Katrina's initial proposals were not outright mergers, but peace proposals. Through later negotiations with Hanse, they certainly became a merger. That doesn't mean that Ian would feel the same way, as he doesn't have the immediate problem Hanse faced by having no heir. That was what I was thinking more of. Without the need for a dynastic union right that very moment, perhaps the talks take on a much slower tone. Start with improved trade treaties, favored nation status, open up the Lyran and Davion military markets to each other in a big way. Throw in some non-aggression pacts, maybe a few simple shared defense clauses or trading off successful mercenary unit contracts. But this would take place over a longer span of time, since Hanse is waiting in the wings, should Ian fall. It might actually lead to a stronger FedCom, since issues could be worked out in advance if the pace of the union is slower to develop. Just some random thoughts.

Wasn’t there quite a number of years between initial discussions and formal alliance being signed, plus Hanse waited until Melissa was seventeen or eighteen, didn’t he? She was a number of years younger when the treaty was actually signed. Nice of the old grandfatherly type, wasn’t it?
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #38 on: 15 February 2011, 22:39:10 »
IIRC the initial talks were in '20 and the marriage was in '28, when Hanse and Melissa were 45 and 18, respectively.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #39 on: 15 February 2011, 22:52:45 »
IIRC the initial talks were in '20 and the marriage was in '28, when Hanse and Melissa were 45 and 18, respectively.

Nice work if you can get it.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #40 on: 15 February 2011, 22:55:52 »
Except for the early death part.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #41 on: 15 February 2011, 23:06:33 »
Wasn’t there quite a number of years between initial discussions and formal alliance being signed

Definitely. I was just suggesting that perhaps this version would be more in the timeframe of decades versus years.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #42 on: 15 February 2011, 23:06:54 »
Except for the early death part.

He lived sixty-nine years, and was only cut so short due to the stress from the Clan Invasion. And he was arguably the finest ruler, of any House, that the Inner Sphere has ever known.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #43 on: 15 February 2011, 23:20:16 »
The average citizenry of New Avalon lives to over a hundred.  Double Hanse's years is not out of the question.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Reaver

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 615
  • 10 XP from 2nd level commoner
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #44 on: 15 February 2011, 23:23:11 »
Hello.

I'm a little confused.  Many of you mentioned the Dragoons would not be with House Davion in 3028 if Ian had not died.  Could someone walk me through why?  Wouldn't the Dragoons have still wanted to be employed with each House, ending up with Kurita in 3025ish?  Wouldn't the Dracs still have hacked them off, and consequently wouldn't they still have sought asylum in the FS?  What am I missing?  Thanks.

I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.
The Federated Suns.  Exporting freedom, whether we have it or not, whether you want it or not.
--Pyro

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #45 on: 15 February 2011, 23:36:44 »
The average citizenry of New Avalon lives to over a hundred.  Double Hanse's years is not out of the question.

Yeah, but the best years are far behind you back then. It's like the people who are slowly killing themselves with cigarettes, booze, or drugs. They're taking years off their lives at the bad end.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #46 on: 15 February 2011, 23:52:48 »
Yeah, but the best years are far behind you back then. It's like the people who are slowly killing themselves with cigarettes, booze, or drugs. They're taking years off their lives at the bad end.

If some of the descriptions out of JHS: Terra, regarding the Terran population, are any indication of what major industrialized worlds of the Inner Sphere can do in terms of medicine...honestly, 100 is the new 40.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #47 on: 16 February 2011, 00:05:11 »
If some of the descriptions out of JHS: Terra, regarding the Terran population, are any indication of what major industrialized worlds of the Inner Sphere can do in terms of medicine...honestly, 100 is the new 40.

That makes Phillip's Drummond's being a MechWarrior at 112 sound somehow less impressive.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #48 on: 16 February 2011, 00:41:29 »
I actually thought it made it sound more believable. Keep in mind, there's also some hyperbole in my previous post. JHS: Terra does seem to show that ripe old age is quite a bit above what we might consider it today, at least for the Terrans. A little quote for refernce:

Quote
JHS: Terra pg. 166
While Terran medical knowledge has not advanced much beyond
that of the Star League, it is still sufficient to keep the average
Terran alive for 150 years. Middle age among Terrans is usually
considered to reach until the 110s or so; many adults start their
families in their 70s and 80s,

On a non-Terran capital world like New Avalon, you could probably cut those numbers down some. I'd still imagine they are higher than we see now. No idea how that would apply in the Clan homeworlds, but it helps me understand Jamie Wolf, or Drummond, or any of the others in a Mech cockpit at over 100 years of age.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #49 on: 16 February 2011, 00:55:19 »
I actually thought it made it sound more believable. Keep in mind, there's also some hyperbole in my previous post. JHS: Terra does seem to show that ripe old age is quite a bit above what we might consider it today, at least for the Terrans. A little quote for refernce:

On a non-Terran capital world like New Avalon, you could probably cut those numbers down some. I'd still imagine they are higher than we see now. No idea how that would apply in the Clan homeworlds, but it helps me understand Jamie Wolf, or Drummond, or any of the others in a Mech cockpit at over 100 years of age.

A lot of Clan Warriors don’t reach 25. The average Terran lives for 6 times that number. No wonder they want Terra so bad!
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Dread Moores

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2201
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #50 on: 16 February 2011, 00:57:54 »
Well, now you're talking about apples or oranges. Or civilians and soldiers in this case. :)

It would be interesting to see if there is an average age given for Clan civvies somewhere, to see what the differences are.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #51 on: 16 February 2011, 01:02:50 »
Well, now you're talking about apples or oranges. Or civilians and soldiers in this case. :)

It would be interesting to see if there is an average age given for Clan civvies somewhere, to see what the differences are.

It would definitely be lower. Terrans may have some form of Medicare, old age pensions. The Clans view that as a waste of resources.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

False Son

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6461
  • Kot Blini
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #52 on: 16 February 2011, 01:10:43 »
I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.

But, the whole thing is that the feud between the Dracs and Dragoons was formally "announced" at Hanse and Melissa's wedding.  If Hanse and Melissa don't have their wedding Jaime doesn't berrate Takashi in front of everyone.  The same incident is when Jaime offers the Dragoons to Hanse, thus starting the whole Death to Mercenaries situation.  Maybe the Dragoons would have stuck around to get revenge... but would the 4th SW even happen without the great enemy Hanse to start it?
TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER


Destroy what destroys you

Oddball

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • When we go into battle we play music, very loud.
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #53 on: 16 February 2011, 08:28:34 »
I don't think its "the Dragoons wouldn't be with House Davion", although that was decided in the scenario laid out.  Rather, the idea is that 3028 isn't a significant year.  If Hanse isn't the ruler of the Fed Suns, then Katrina Steiner's offer for alliance presumably goes elsewhere than alliance into the Fed-Com.  Ergo, no 4th Succession War, and no particular distinction for the Dragoons.

Although I suppose you could propose that, had the Dragoons remained in the Fed Suns, they might have helped spark a major border war between the Fed Suns and the Combine.  What effect that would have had on the major players of the canon 4th Succession War is anyone's guess.

Thanks that clears it up. 

But, the whole thing is that the feud between the Dracs and Dragoons was formally "announced" at Hanse and Melissa's wedding.  If Hanse and Melissa don't have their wedding Jaime doesn't berrate Takashi in front of everyone.  The same incident is when Jaime offers the Dragoons to Hanse, thus starting the whole Death to Mercenaries situation.  Maybe the Dragoons would have stuck around to get revenge... but would the 4th SW even happen without the great enemy Hanse to start it?

That makes sense. If there is no insult, then there is no Takashi crazily trying to kill the Dragoons during the 4th SW (if there was one) above all other concerns.  However, I kind of figure Jamie would have found a way to make the insult anyway...  It just would have been less dramatic.

VF1LAM

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3676
  • Fifth Crucis Lancers
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #54 on: 16 February 2011, 08:34:41 »
I'm not sure what Ian Davion looked like, but according to an illustration in the original Federated Suns sourcebook, Hanse Davion looked like Captain Kirk in 3013. ::)
Federated Commonwealth -- One more MechAssault if you want to be free!


Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #55 on: 16 February 2011, 14:00:00 »
I'm not sure what Ian Davion looked like, but according to an illustration in the original Federated Suns sourcebook, Hanse Davion looked like Captain Kirk in 3013. ::)

KHAAANNNN!

Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Nibs

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1790
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #56 on: 16 February 2011, 16:25:14 »

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #57 on: 16 February 2011, 17:35:16 »
MAXXXXXXXX!

Oh, quite right, Khan doesn't appear until 3050 or so.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded

Demon55

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2597
  • Planning wisely.
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #58 on: 16 February 2011, 22:22:06 »
Ian died surrounded by his mech's cockpit and Hanse died surrounded by his office.  The later got ripped off and the former went out with style.

Guardsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
  • Sang-wei Christopher Vose
Re: How different were Ian and Hanse?
« Reply #59 on: 16 February 2011, 22:26:30 »
Ian died surrounded by his mech's cockpit and Hanse died surrounded by his office.  The later got ripped off and the former went out with style.

The Clans would have certainly preferred to go out like Ian Davion.
Dan "Albatross" Schulz
(
1979 - 8 November 2009)
You won't be forgotten,
You will live on forever,
So long as the internet exists,
We shall remember you, Albatross.
1st Chesterton Guards
Regiment/Veteran/Fanatical
100% Strength | 100% Upgraded