Author Topic: An Exercise in the Hypothetical: The Delayed Clan Invasion and the Inner Sphere  (Read 8183 times)

abou

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1897
A few years ago there was a thread on the Axman and someone made a really keen observation: it was a 'mech designed for the previous war. And that got me thinking about what the Inner Sphere would look like without a Clan Invasion or at least one delayed by ten to fifteen years or more. And I think this takes on a lot of aspects for a potential 5th SW.

Most relevant to the game is where does technology and design go. Do battlemechs that are sort of maligned actually end up shining in a more level playing field. For example, does the Wolf Trap succeed as a light 'mech hunter and end up being embraced by the DCMS? How does the Axman perform against other heavy 'mechs when it doesn't have to fight Thors and Mad Cats? Perhaps we would not see designs such as the Bushwacker and battle armor development is severely delayed without the contributions of stolen Clan technology.

I imagine eventually 'tech advancement happens across the spectrum with the IS filling out the full roster of ER lasers, streak SRMs, and autocannon varieties. At the same time, would we be seeing weapons such as the heavy and light PPCs, PPC capacitor, or the light and heavy gauss rifles without the damage output and weight savings from Clan counterparts as a benchmark? Does some of the wackier tech show up? What about a weapon such as the binary laser cannon?

With all the recovered tech and new designs, I imagine warfare would be more intense than it had been in a long while. In retrospect, the 4th SW and War of '39 were relatively short affairs. Yet that doesn't even get into warships. Without the existential threat of the Clans, would ComStar be willing to share information and access to the large drives needed to move the warships?

And then the biggie would be politics and war!

The FedCom would be the side to beat, but I also imagine they would want to be gunning for the Combine after being humiliated in '39. When this war would happen is hard to say, but if it were not for the Clans then sometime soon after 3050. And with a less existential threat is Hanse Davion able to avoid a heart attack with less stress? What about Victor being stationed on Trell I and does he actually enter the war? In many respects, I would think that internal stresses of the FedCom would come to the fore depending on how the war goes -- eg. Free Skye, the Draconis March, rumblings in the Sarna March from Maskirovka -- all of which could provide a more reasonable pretense for a civil war if it were to happen.

The situation with the Combine would fall onto the enmity between Takashi and Theodore and how that plays out. Without the Clans and victories against them, Theodore might not have another clear opening to override his father. One thought I had would be if Theodore could somehow flip the script on the relations between Rasalhague and the FedCom. That would certainly be clever and unexpected. The FRR might not provide major assistance, but could stymie Lyran efforts into the DC. A major reversal of international relations could hurt the FedCom. Maybe ComStar is involved in changing allegiances between the DC and FRR. Which then gets us to ComStar...

ComStar's relations could tighten with the DC further and further providing the latter a much needed boost. However, if ComStar's bias were discovered the repercussions could reverberate throughout the IS. Does this land Theodore in trouble? How does the FedCom handle this? Would this be the downfall of CS and a different pathway to the WoB? Would the IS seize the HPG stations? Would CS tie the DC and FWL together in an alliance using leverage on "Thomas Marik"?

The FWL, however, might finally be in a spot to seriously participate in a 5th SW. Under the direction of Thomas, they have their economy in order and a strong federal government after the Andurien crisis. Perhaps a move to restore the Bolan Thumb could put a wrench in anything the FedCom would plan against the DC.

Finally, this gets us to the CapCon. And oddly enough, I think the CapCon is the safest of them all. Romano has basically made the CC a fortress. I do not imagine their neighbors would seriously consider attacking them outside of raids. However, I do not know if the CCAF is in any serious shape to attempt to conquer worlds. I imagine, however, there would be a serious shadow war between the CC and St. Ives. That shadow war could culminate in the same events of assassination or not. I do wonder if the ascension of Sun Tzu to the Celestial throne would delay or change what would become Xin Sheng. Perhaps the CC would not become so overtly Chinese (maybe Sino is the better adjective). Maybe there would be a reunification. Also, I think the new generation of house scions would not be so dismissive of Sun Tzu without an Outreach summit where he could put on an act for them.

To conclude, I think this would have been a fun alternative history to play in. I think I would like to see the IS powers actually get their hands on HPG tech. That was something being alluded to since the House Davion sourcebook. It would only make sense to finally get there. Maybe that could start a sort of Jihad event, but not to the same degree as we would see. But yeah, that is just me musing. Sorry if it came off a bit -- or a lot -- rambling and poorly proofread.

PS. The Periphery would probably stay as is. I mean, the Taurians are paranoid as always. What are you going to do?

RifleMech

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4486
Neither Hance nor Takashi and Theodore were interested in fighting another war. That's they they posted their sons out in the Periphery. It was an unspoken agreement to let them fight the next war.  So if the Clan Invasion had just happened 15-20 years later, I think that they would have faced more recovered and IS created tech that had  been more wide spread. I also think it'd be possible some militia's would be using cast off prototype tech from the War of 39. I'm not sure the IS would have gotten beyond that point in tech development without a war though. As is the fighting would be much more difficult for the Clans as the initial tech gap wouldn't be as wide.


If there was another IS wide war, I think it'd be a spill over from the CC trying to reclaim the St Ives in the 60's. The FC would naturally come to their defense. I think the CC would get help from the MC and the TC. You'd also have a reverse of troop movement from canon in the FC as troops from the Lyran side go to fight the Taurians on the Davion side.

I'm not sure the FWL would have gotten involved. Maybe take a few worlds they'd lost and then sue for peace. I think the DC might also try stay out of it. They have an unspoken truce already with the FC. Plus with the RR blocking the Lyran border that lets the FC put more troops on the Davion side of the Kuritan Border. That'd make fighting harder for the DC. I also don't think the RR would get involved as they also don't have anything to gain. Unless of course they chose to pick a fight against a distracted DC over more worlds.

Comstar I think would try to help the CC by supplying them with tech and units. Possibly even warships if things got bad enough. I think they'd also try to push the FWL, RR, and DC into the fight. Maybe even threatening a black out if they don't. They will blackout the FC but Hanse would have prepared for that and use the fax machines. He might even kick Comstar out. I also think he might be willing to unofficially help the other powers if it meant hurting Comstar. Should the other Houses get involved though it'd be a messy fight.

In this case, I could see a push towards more advanced tech. It's possible that the IS could have all the tech they do by the Jihad or at least the Improved Clan Weapons and the Prototypes from Operation Klondike. If there were Battle Armor I think it'd be limited to Exoskeletons though.

I would also like to think that there would have been some research put into LAMs.  They Clans wouldn't have destroyed the factory so they'd still be produced. I can easily see the other Houses wanting their own  LAM factories. I don't know that they'd get that far but I can see them trying. They are amazing scouts.

If things go like above the Clans I think, They run into an IS already at war with advanced weapons. That would give the Clans a seriously difficult fight. Even if the fight isn't IS wide. Advance tech will spread. Plus the other Houses would have been churning out war material as fast as possible, just in case. The best I can see is the Clans getting as far as they did in canon by calling up more Clans to help with the invasion.

Of course when the Clans do invade the Wolf's Dragoons would try to call for a cease fire among the IS Houses to inform them who the new invaders are. Comstar I think would also start trying to broker a peace between the House and move the ComGuards to the frontlines. If there were a Tukayyid I think it'd be made up of the ComGuards and a Coalition of House troops. I'm not sure they'd be the 2nd Star League or not but I think it''d be the start of it.

Fear Factory

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4070
  • Designing the Enemy
I know we've had this discussion in person a few times.

It would have been neat to see the base tech from city tech some time to move around for a bit longer. Also, it would have given some time for the FRR to take root as one of the major houses of the Inner Sphere.
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

abou

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1897
It's hard to imagine something wouldn't bring the FedCom and DC into war though. It is easy to imagine a Sandoval or a Warlord inciting some sort of conflict at the least.  Sure, the heirs were kept off the front lines in a move to prevent war, but that is hardly how things work out in the end.

R.Tempest

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 197
 Comstar's activity would entirely depend on whether Myndo Waterly is still Primus. If she's been replaced (and I can't think of a reason she would be) then maybe Comstar will get more involved otherwise it will be business as usual.
 As a related question: Is the Concord of Kapteyn still in effect? It's been a while since I read through War of '39 but I don't recall their being much assistance for the Combine from the League or the Confederation during that conflict.

abou

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1897
The Concord of K was never officially dissolved, but was never fully utilized either. I think there is certainly room for it to play a major roll in a "what if" scenario. The only agent that ever successfully infiltrated ComStar was Sharilar Mori from the DC. Then you throw in Thomas plus the FWL and I think you have a net that binds these powers together a bit tighter to counteract the FedCom.

Starfury

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 791
Much also depends on Katherine Steiner Davion's actions in wanting to run the Federated Commonwealth.  If another succession war breaks out, does she blow up both Hanse and Melissa and then take over while Victor is fighting Kurita and Marik?  In addition, what does the Master do to strengthen the Kapetyn Accords so the war hits the right targets for the Third Transfer?  Does St. Ives decide to launch a preemptive strike against the Capellan Confederation since the FedCom can't help them, or get used as a staging ground for another invasion to finish the CappyCons once and for all?

And what about the Periphery? Does Taurian paranoia lead to supporting whichever powers attack the Fedrats in their new conflict? Does the Magistracy expand into unclaimed space and take advantage of Marik or the Capellans? Or do the ambitions of the Marian Hegemony build a new copy of TOG from Renegade Legion by conquering the Ilyrian Palantine, the Lothian League, and head into conflict with the Magistracy? Does Niops link up with one of the biggest fish and help spread the technology of the Helm Core to the rest of the states? What do the Northen Periphery powers do?

Starfury

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 791
And during this exercise, does Kurita learn how to put DHS on the mechs that need them, and do we ever get a good Goliath or Quickdraw refit?

Warship

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • Once more into the fire
A few ideas:

1.  With the extra ten years, Inner Sphere nations may have enough time to bring their weapons closer to Clan standards.
2.  Comstar, fearing the potential loss of their communications monopoly, might become more flexible in their dealings with
     the Great Houses.  This assumes Myndo blows a fuse suffering a debilitating stroke and is replaced by Focht.
3.  Political marriages occur.  Omi marries Victor, Hohiro marries Isis Marik, Sun Tzu marries Katherine.  Pre-WWI Europe. 
     All of the realms are united via marriage.  A new Golden Age of peace and scientific expansion occurs.  With three or
     more of the bloodlines combined, the surname of Cameron could be adopted.  The obvious choice would be the
     offspring of Victor and Omi.  Plans could then be made for the Marik and Liao lines to be added, once the kiddos grow
     up.  The idea of a unified Inner Sphere takes hold.
4.  Warship production, assuming no setbacks via Comstar, explodes allowing for perhaps 50 or more warships to exist
     by 3060.
5.  Periphery nations, not wanting to be left out, join in. 
6.  Wolf's Dragoons quietly alert the IS as to who they truly are.  This encourages cooperation between the realms.  A
     buildup of troops and war matériel begins.
7.  The invasion begins.  After a number of successful planetary invasions, the Clans run into warships fleets from the
     combined IS powers, Comstar included.  The Clans discover the IS practices real war with Clan Jumpships destroyed
     outright allowing Clan Dropships to be hunted down and destroyed short of their next targets.  The Invading Clans
     call for their warships to be brought down en masse, even allowing non-Invading Clans to partake. 
8.  Salvage taken so far by the IS forces increases the hunger and cooperation between the IS forces for more.  The
     superior numbers of IS forces drives back the invasion.  Interrogation of captured Clan warriors and personnel gives
     birth to a crusade against the Clans.  By 3070, all Clan Homeworlds are under occupation.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Alright . . . a few things in motion/happen before or without the Clans.

First, as mentioned Theo & Hanse sent their sons to the Periphery to let the next war pass on to their heirs.

Second, Romano is still trying to kill her sister & Justin.  Her final success is only tangentially related to the Clans- aka, Justin pulled analysts of following the CC to look at the new threat called the Clans.

Third, regional movements/powers still exist- Kelswa-Steiner's Tamar rebuild, Free Skye, James Sandoval & Drac March hate/fear, Takashi still runs his competing warlords paradigm, and of course the League's internal politics cause infighting.

Fourth, Joshua Fake-Marik is still ill but will die sooner because he does not travel to the NAIS.  Isis Legit-Marik is designated as a back-up heir but she will not meet Sun-Tzu.

Fifth, the tech recovery has been progressing with ComStar unable to completely stymie the development but the IS will be limited to Star League developed weapons- it means some sizes of LBX & UAC are not available to be recovered.  GDL may attempt to build Battle Armor, but would probably only have the Scouts- may not if they needed salvage Elementals to figure out the pieces.  Warships may happen but there is no drive b/c they would not have something to compete with (Clan ships) and the IS powers will not be handed keys to the design (ComStar tech transfer).

Sixth, the Dragoons maintain their feud with the Dragon, do not reveal their Clan tech (and thus keep building stockpiles), and do not take in bondsmen that lead to the Dragoons civil war.  Likely stay with their long term contract to the FedCom.

Seventh, no Omnis.  First Gen Omnis were captured Clan designs, most of them from the Battle for Luthien, where the salvage was heavily analyzed with each Omni a outsized IS built version.

Eighth, ComStar is still covertly hostile to the rest of the IS but only the DC has inside information.  The ComGuard are still kept hidden as much as possible, especially their tech edge.  Waterly is Primus and working against Hanse/FedCom.

Ninth, Arc Royal does not become a mercenary center- it remains home to the Kell Hounds, but its no longer a border magnet.

What it means for warfare-  The IS will not place as much emphasis on packing long range weapons to compete with the Clan's range advantage in cERLL, cLRMs, cERPPCs, cGauss. and small ACs along with later ER ATMs.  I think this means that you would see changes in designs like the Falconer or Gunslinger- designs meant to compete with the Clans for range & mobility.  I do know we would not see a Rakshasa outside of general development- if it did happen it would be different for the 2nd way the IS mimic'd the Clans- speed.  The no Clans Rakshasa would likely be 4/6 rather than 5/8 . . . and it might jump, being called something like the 'Super Catapult.'  The speeds set for mechs with the Succession Wars do not really change- so 4/6 for heavies mostly and 5/8 for mediums . . . take most the designs faster than that and slow them down to put more weapons on them.

Some events that are going to be changing . . .

Sun-Tzu takes over from the quickly cooling Romano . . .  but the Clans are not present as a threat, so he has to move a LOT more carefully up against Hanse- who while he may not want to fight the DC never said a thing about hacking off more from the Cappies- and Sun-Tzu will not have the convenient Op Bulldog/Serpent taking Victory & Kai out of the IS for him to move against SIC.  We also do not get the ripples from Word of Blake causing him to look to the MoC to form an alliance . . . but its a logical move and I think might have occurred eventually.  The real question is does the CC have the tech research/recovery to off to the MoC as payoff to join in alliance?  They will not have House Ijori raiding a Clan OZ or any other unit trying to get tech.  The Cappies would also be risking a harsh FedCom response by raiding them enough for the tech they need so the League might be a better target to get samples.  Rather than stirring the Chaos March (which would not exist) I expect Sun-Tzu to be supporting Kelswa-Steiner's Tamar rants and the Free Skye movement . . . perhaps even supporting some FRR nutcase wanting to take more Tamar worlds from the Lyran part of the FC.  Supporting rogue FRR faction invading the remaining Tamar worlds, with Kelswa-Steiner pushing to annex back all the worlds he lost to tie up the AFFC- especially of the DC gets involved- would give him the opportunity to try to retake the SIC.

No matter what happens, IMO it would be in Sun-Tzu's character to try to rebuild his shattered realm.

I think Thomas will consolidate his power in the League . . . which might lead to a League-FedCom war if tensions rise- it also gives him another means to consolidate that power with 'foreign' enemies.  IF Sun-Tzu goes after SIC and runs into a AFFC response to end the Confederation, the League would have to cross the border to take what they could from the failing state and preserve as much strategic power outside the FedCom's hands.

Other interesting question is . . . if the AFFC gets involved against the League, does Theodore change his mind?  would it get the TC to jump in to retake their conquered worlds?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I pretty much agree almost entirely with Colt.

Far to many "changes" happened BECAUSE of the clans.

The entire Outreach Nobles & IS Trade Agreements between nations isn't going to happen.

You won't get the 3060 weapons breakthroughs in most cases because you won't have Clan Tech to use for ideas.

You'll get SLDF tech continuing to be produced & distributed but at a slower rate than we saw in canon since there was no rush & no cooperation.

No Omni's, No Mechs based off Clan Concepts or to deal w/ Clan Forces (Like the Above mentioned Rakshasa, but also stuff like the Komodo)

At best we might see the FC put Nighthawks back into production for Spec Ops units like the Infiltrator was, but you won't see the various other Light-Assault sized suits.

Maybe someday, 20 years later, someone comes up with a Light suit that is the stealthy big brother to the NightHawk, basically the Achilles for example.

No marriages of Isis or Omi.   Probably not even a Hanse heart attack since he wouldn't have been up late working OT stressed by the invasion & Scorpion.
It might still happen but it might be in the day time & medics might have gotten to him, etc etc.
At worse we see a late 50's era Victor taking over partial leadership of half the Realm while Hanse spends more time w/ Melissa on the opposite but still rotating throne.

Kat doesn't have to political instability of the Invasion timeline to put her into power even if she still tries an assassination.

Thomas was busy letting Merc out of their contracts & with Joshua due to die sooner he'll be in mourning & in no mindset to launch any Guerrero.

Sunny will eventually remove mommy from power but won't have a FWL ally to try to get frisky with.
Maybe instead he goes after St. Ives earlier but that ends up backfiring with no SLDF Peacekeepers to Utilize & the full weights of the Sarna March forces intact.

The DC was STILL recovering economically from the Wo39 when the Clans invaded so I don't see Teddy/Takashi getting frisky with the FC at all.
If anything, I see the FC doing some very small actions much like they did in the 3040's seeking to retake some of the worlds they lost in the 4th SW & Wo39, but slow & steady, no 5th SW.

We see that along the Lyran Border with Aubisson, Skondia, Alphecca in the 3040s.

I'm only surprised we didn't see Quentin & Marduk retaken in that same time frame for their Factories.


Tech you likely will still get..........   C3 obviously since it was Pre-Clans.   Also the Jihad era PPC revolution since it was based off SLDF tech.
Maybe MRMs,  Maybe RACs/LACs.   Also Heavy/Light Gauss.
Eventually the IS might come up with the expanded AC classes for LBX/Ultra, just not by 3058.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37365
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Yeah, I just don't see Quentin staying in DC hands in this case...

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Oh, what I meant for the Falconer . . . instead of being 5/8/5 with a ERPPC, Gauss Rifle and 4 MLs it might be . . . ERLL, Gauss Rifle, 2 ERML, 2 ML, 1 more DHS and 1t more armor- basically something that will fight at 10-15 hexes or closer rather than sparing at 20-22 with a Clan design.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
 The Free Worlds League Militia would be the most technologically advanced military in the Inner Sphere. They already were at the time of the Clan Invasion. Many of what it designed to export, would not exist.

 The Capellan Confederation would be rather moribund.

 The realms that form the Federated Commonwealth would be busy creating a better integrated. Victor might receive an education on how to be a serious statesman.

 Takashi would still be around.
« Last Edit: 12 February 2020, 18:21:37 by Minemech »

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Not sure how you got the first one, the Clan Invasion forced the FedCom to share what they had learned from the NAIS & Helm Core with the League.  Not being at war allowed them to implement and become the arms producer for those fighting against the Clans.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I think the League already had a copy from the DC in the early 3040's.

They had lots of 3050 designs coming on line starting in 3045/46.

The invasion slowed down their own upgrades as much of it was shipped out.

But to say they would be the most advanced is a stretch.

The FC had the copy first & even before they got it were already working on DHS/CASE through the NAIS books.

The FC has something like 3 of the 4 Largest Mech manufactures in the IS inside its borders.  (Top 2 for sure)
  So they would have been well on their way to upgrading their mechs & have some of the earliest examples of production runs in 3042, IIRC.

Not to mention if anyone was going to get Dragoon knowledge in this hypothetical delay, it would have been the FC who they were contracted through & got their home world from..

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
 Much of the drive behind FedCom mech design was the Clan invasion. Many iconic mechs would never have need to be developed, such as the AFFC's Falconer, or even the FWLM's Albatross. You would likely see more Free Worlds League trooper mechs armed with Gauss Rifles (They were already heading that way with the Tempest), and more FedCom mechs equipped with ECM capabilities (NARC, and C3 get annoying). The DCMS are the wildcards, as they would lack omnis, but they can be surprisingly creative.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Not sure I'm seeing the FWL develop a fascination with the Gauss Rifle more than the Lyrans/Davion who have always been BigGun/Daka lovers.

Honestly, w/o the Clan Invasion, TRO3055/58 non-SLDF/Clan section would have been a 20 page document.

I think a whole lot of those mechs wouldn't have been developed.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Yeah, the 3050s trend with the FWL was . . . LRM developments, maybe Ultra ACs, and using NARC.  I also think we might have seen more ECM on FWL mechs to carry the ECCM role out against the Cappies.

What mechs would we have not seen from 55/58/60?
Bushwhacker- still under development as a failed prototype since Coventry would not have Clan designs to apply feature fixes
Rakshasa- no Timber Wolf, like I said at most a 'Super Cat' or Catapult II at 4/6/4 . . . but not likely
Falconer-  Maybe with XL engines allowing the speed to be cavalry, but like I mentioned the weapons load would be less long ranged focused
Watchman & Sentry-  No replacements needed on the DC border
Penetrator- heavier jumping Warhammer?  As someone said, its pretty much a WHM-6D upgrade
Kimodo- no Elementals to chase
Lineholder-  Chaos March does not develop
Grand Crusader/Raijin - No WoB
pretty much all of 3060
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
 The whole reason the Light Gauss Rifle was developed was in hopes of putting the IS model within Clan standards. The FWLM first tested the Gauss on the Goliath, then moved it into platforms like the Tempest. You could argue that they were using mixes of AC10s, Large Lasers, and PPCs on their mechs, but so was everyone else at the time. TRO 3058 was a watershed work that created many stereotypes that are unfortunate.
 
Not sure I'm seeing the FWL develop a fascination with the Gauss Rifle more than the Lyrans/Davion who have always been BigGun/Daka lovers.
If you compare TRO 3058 with TRO 3025, you will find enormous inconsistency, not because the states did not have developed doctrine, but rather because TRO 3058 played favorites, to the point that the FWLM was basically left out. If you remove 3058 from your mind, and only use the TROs 3025, 3050, and 3055 to determine what future mechs would look like, 3058 is bonkers, outside of the IS omnis. In 3060, the FWLM was granted UAC 10s, which could compete with Gauss Rifles, but were different, yet that did not last past that book.

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
 Now you could argue that TRO 3058's formatting of the BattleTech universe was a necessary evil, that ultimately made states more interesting. The influences, positive, and negative, of given TROs are probably best saved for other threads.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I'm still not seeing it just with the Goliath & Tempest.


The FC for example from the same TROs


3050 :  Jaggermech-DG, Marauder-5S, Victor-9K/D, Banshee-5S
3055 :  Hollander, Falconer, Wardog, Gunslinger


There was plenty of Gauss love going around before TRO3058 came about.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
And the League was developing their LRM tech in the 30s & 40s- NARC, Artemis IV, Swarm ammo and Semi-G.  For instance, I would buy the League building the Apollo and Yeoman in this AU since it extends their LRM builds.  The Rifleman 5M would still be a Marik machine too.

In canon, they go LRM, ERLL, Light Guass & UAC/10 with alternate missile ammos also in the works.  The light gauss might drop out and the UAC/10 would be delayed IIRC- so more UAC/5s.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
I don't see the LGR even being developed  (Before the late part of the century anyway).

Ultra-10 & other "clan" upgrades of SLDF Tech, like the larger Streak racks etc etc I would see being around about 10-20 years later than they were introduced.  So end of the Jihad (70's)

That gives the IS a solid 20+ years of practice with SLDF tech & C3/TSM before they start researching into even more technical advancments.

I think maybe the 1 thing that "might" get developed still would be RAC/LAC since IIRC that was research based on the LB10X using lighter alloys, but even that is a stretch.


Basically without the Clans to even let the IS know that there is something better out there already to push them into research overdrive,  I think 20 years is as short of a delay as we might see & could easily be 50 years in some cases.  Which isn't extreme given the SLDF wouldn't release there best tech to the Houses for 50 years after each discovery & the Houses weren't out duplicating things in under that time from anything I've read.


I think TRO:3060 tech would have been more like TRO3085.

TRO3055/58 wouldn't exist other than a few units that could maybe combine parts of 55/58/60 into an entire TRO of what the IS might have created by about 3060-ish in that time range, w/o the Clan Invasion to spur them on.


The SLDF models would have been brought back still (Pillager, Excalibur, Lynx, Specter, etc etc)
Maybe a few new from scratch mechs just like how the Axeman, Wolftrap, Mauler were revealed in TRO3050, but not nearly the volume we saw.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
So I just went & looked at TRO3055 IS Light Mechs section.

10 Mechs there.

Of those 10,  I honestly can't say more than 4 of them would have been created w/o Invasion pushing them onward.


Tarantula,  Hitman,  Venom,  & possibly Scarabus


The rest just seem to overlap too much with existing designs or were flat out inspired to face the clans.


And frankly, I can't say that I'd miss any of them if they hadn't been invented.



3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

massey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2445
You'd probably have a lot more upgrade kits for 3025 mechs.  Without the Clan Invasion, you don't have massive numbers of older machines wiped out.  In real world terms, the Invasion provided a convenient excuse to write a bunch of new TROs (and eventually to stop showing any Unseen mechs).  So many regiments got annihilated that they had to push a bunch of new designs out the door.  Without the Invasion, there's no reason to build a bunch of new mechs when you can just upgrade old ones.

I think you'd basically see the 3050 upgrades (though maybe a little better thought out with no rush) gradually spreading throughout the Inner Sphere.

Politically, Hanse might want one more bite at the apple.  Does he go after the Combine again, or try to finish off the Capellan Confederation once and for all?  Does he pick a new target and try to conquer the Free Worlds League?  The only problem is I think the 3 non-FedCom empires can't sit still if he launches another attack.  Because at that point they'll know that it's only a matter of time before he comes after them.

And of course, on Outreach you've still got Jaime Wolf, who has to be wondering when the other shoe is going to drop. 

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
I could see Hanse go after the TC, either after the Magistry joins the Capellans in alliance or in preparation for Inner Sphere operations.

Other hand . . . after Sun Tzu kills Romano would be a excellent time to run over that cripple.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
I'm still not seeing it just with the Goliath & Tempest.


The FC for example from the same TROs
3050 :  Jaggermech-DG, Marauder-5S, Victor-9K/D, Banshee-5S
Alright, you can cross out the Victor, as the only AC/20 toting mech that did not swap for a Gauss was the Hunchback, and it would not have been a terribly good platform for that weapon. Was the Jagermech DG from the Upgrades? I only have 3050R on hand, but it largely interchangeable with 3050. The MAD 5S was the Steiner equivalent to the League Goliath, down to the single ton of ammo. As for the Banshee, that thing was a monster, and well within the spirit of its predecessor. 

Quote
3055 :  Hollander, Falconer, Wardog, Gunslinger


There was plenty of Gauss love going around before TRO3058 came about.
The Wardog was used by everyone after the Irregulars discovered its specs at a Star League base they rediscovered due to a clan related storyline. The Hollander was made, because they realized that lights were not getting any damage off against clan mechs, but hoped that they could use the Kit Fox technique of an overarmed light to cause some pain. The Falconer, and Gunslinger were made explicitly to fight clanners, and like the Hollander, would probably have never come into fruition without the Clan Invasion. Fighting Clan mechs was hard, they had good movement, and far stronger damage, even with mediocre weapon layouts. The Executioner's description says it all.

 By contrast, TRO 3058 implies that the FedCom had specs for powerful Gauss boats all along, thus the desperation behind these designs was brushed aside. This completely rewrote the narrative behind the force design of the BattleTech universe.

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2764
So I just went & looked at TRO3055 IS Light Mechs section.

10 Mechs there.

Of those 10,  I honestly can't say more than 4 of them would have been created w/o Invasion pushing them onward.


Tarantula,  Hitman,  Venom,  & possibly Scarabus


The rest just seem to overlap too much with existing designs or were flat out inspired to face the clans.


And frankly, I can't say that I'd miss any of them if they hadn't been invented.
The Hammer fluff never made sense to me. The Tarantula, and Venom are descent mechs. The flavor text of the Hollander tries to explain away a crisis in light mech design, they are totally outclassed by the clans, unable to inflict even light damage in return.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13088
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Alright, you can cross out the Victor, as the only AC/20 toting mech that did not swap for a Gauss was the Hunchback, and it would not have been a terribly good platform for that weapon. Was the Jagermech DG from the Upgrades? I only have 3050R on hand, but it largely interchangeable with 3050. The MAD 5S was the Steiner equivalent to the League Goliath, down to the single ton of ammo. As for the Banshee, that thing was a monster, and well within the spirit of its predecessor. 
 The Wardog was used by everyone after the Irregulars discovered its specs at a Star League base they rediscovered due to a clan related storyline. The Hollander was made, because they realized that lights were not getting any damage off against clan mechs, but hoped that they could use the Kit Fox technique of an overarmed light to cause some pain. The Falconer, and Gunslinger were made explicitly to fight clanners, and like the Hollander, would probably have never come into fruition without the Clan Invasion. Fighting Clan mechs was hard, they had good movement, and far stronger damage, even with mediocre weapon layouts. The Executioner's description says it all.

 By contrast, TRO 3058 implies that the FedCom had specs for powerful Gauss boats all along, thus the desperation behind these designs was brushed aside. This completely rewrote the narrative behind the force design of the BattleTech universe.


1.  The Atlas-7S kept its AC20.   The Axeman was made w/ an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle.   Why would the Victor have been inappropriate w/ an AC20 when it turned around & went back to an AC20 is more than 1 later model?

2.  Sooo, you get to disregard all 8 examples of FC usage of the Gauss Rifle PRE-3058 & keep your 2 to show a precedent?
Okay, I'm done talking about this now.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo