Author Topic: An Exercise in the Hypothetical: The Delayed Clan Invasion and the Inner Sphere  (Read 8177 times)

abou

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A few years ago there was a thread on the Axman and someone made a really keen observation: it was a 'mech designed for the previous war. And that got me thinking about what the Inner Sphere would look like without a Clan Invasion or at least one delayed by ten to fifteen years or more. And I think this takes on a lot of aspects for a potential 5th SW.

Most relevant to the game is where does technology and design go. Do battlemechs that are sort of maligned actually end up shining in a more level playing field. For example, does the Wolf Trap succeed as a light 'mech hunter and end up being embraced by the DCMS? How does the Axman perform against other heavy 'mechs when it doesn't have to fight Thors and Mad Cats? Perhaps we would not see designs such as the Bushwacker and battle armor development is severely delayed without the contributions of stolen Clan technology.

I imagine eventually 'tech advancement happens across the spectrum with the IS filling out the full roster of ER lasers, streak SRMs, and autocannon varieties. At the same time, would we be seeing weapons such as the heavy and light PPCs, PPC capacitor, or the light and heavy gauss rifles without the damage output and weight savings from Clan counterparts as a benchmark? Does some of the wackier tech show up? What about a weapon such as the binary laser cannon?

With all the recovered tech and new designs, I imagine warfare would be more intense than it had been in a long while. In retrospect, the 4th SW and War of '39 were relatively short affairs. Yet that doesn't even get into warships. Without the existential threat of the Clans, would ComStar be willing to share information and access to the large drives needed to move the warships?

And then the biggie would be politics and war!

The FedCom would be the side to beat, but I also imagine they would want to be gunning for the Combine after being humiliated in '39. When this war would happen is hard to say, but if it were not for the Clans then sometime soon after 3050. And with a less existential threat is Hanse Davion able to avoid a heart attack with less stress? What about Victor being stationed on Trell I and does he actually enter the war? In many respects, I would think that internal stresses of the FedCom would come to the fore depending on how the war goes -- eg. Free Skye, the Draconis March, rumblings in the Sarna March from Maskirovka -- all of which could provide a more reasonable pretense for a civil war if it were to happen.

The situation with the Combine would fall onto the enmity between Takashi and Theodore and how that plays out. Without the Clans and victories against them, Theodore might not have another clear opening to override his father. One thought I had would be if Theodore could somehow flip the script on the relations between Rasalhague and the FedCom. That would certainly be clever and unexpected. The FRR might not provide major assistance, but could stymie Lyran efforts into the DC. A major reversal of international relations could hurt the FedCom. Maybe ComStar is involved in changing allegiances between the DC and FRR. Which then gets us to ComStar...

ComStar's relations could tighten with the DC further and further providing the latter a much needed boost. However, if ComStar's bias were discovered the repercussions could reverberate throughout the IS. Does this land Theodore in trouble? How does the FedCom handle this? Would this be the downfall of CS and a different pathway to the WoB? Would the IS seize the HPG stations? Would CS tie the DC and FWL together in an alliance using leverage on "Thomas Marik"?

The FWL, however, might finally be in a spot to seriously participate in a 5th SW. Under the direction of Thomas, they have their economy in order and a strong federal government after the Andurien crisis. Perhaps a move to restore the Bolan Thumb could put a wrench in anything the FedCom would plan against the DC.

Finally, this gets us to the CapCon. And oddly enough, I think the CapCon is the safest of them all. Romano has basically made the CC a fortress. I do not imagine their neighbors would seriously consider attacking them outside of raids. However, I do not know if the CCAF is in any serious shape to attempt to conquer worlds. I imagine, however, there would be a serious shadow war between the CC and St. Ives. That shadow war could culminate in the same events of assassination or not. I do wonder if the ascension of Sun Tzu to the Celestial throne would delay or change what would become Xin Sheng. Perhaps the CC would not become so overtly Chinese (maybe Sino is the better adjective). Maybe there would be a reunification. Also, I think the new generation of house scions would not be so dismissive of Sun Tzu without an Outreach summit where he could put on an act for them.

To conclude, I think this would have been a fun alternative history to play in. I think I would like to see the IS powers actually get their hands on HPG tech. That was something being alluded to since the House Davion sourcebook. It would only make sense to finally get there. Maybe that could start a sort of Jihad event, but not to the same degree as we would see. But yeah, that is just me musing. Sorry if it came off a bit -- or a lot -- rambling and poorly proofread.

PS. The Periphery would probably stay as is. I mean, the Taurians are paranoid as always. What are you going to do?

RifleMech

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Neither Hance nor Takashi and Theodore were interested in fighting another war. That's they they posted their sons out in the Periphery. It was an unspoken agreement to let them fight the next war.  So if the Clan Invasion had just happened 15-20 years later, I think that they would have faced more recovered and IS created tech that had  been more wide spread. I also think it'd be possible some militia's would be using cast off prototype tech from the War of 39. I'm not sure the IS would have gotten beyond that point in tech development without a war though. As is the fighting would be much more difficult for the Clans as the initial tech gap wouldn't be as wide.


If there was another IS wide war, I think it'd be a spill over from the CC trying to reclaim the St Ives in the 60's. The FC would naturally come to their defense. I think the CC would get help from the MC and the TC. You'd also have a reverse of troop movement from canon in the FC as troops from the Lyran side go to fight the Taurians on the Davion side.

I'm not sure the FWL would have gotten involved. Maybe take a few worlds they'd lost and then sue for peace. I think the DC might also try stay out of it. They have an unspoken truce already with the FC. Plus with the RR blocking the Lyran border that lets the FC put more troops on the Davion side of the Kuritan Border. That'd make fighting harder for the DC. I also don't think the RR would get involved as they also don't have anything to gain. Unless of course they chose to pick a fight against a distracted DC over more worlds.

Comstar I think would try to help the CC by supplying them with tech and units. Possibly even warships if things got bad enough. I think they'd also try to push the FWL, RR, and DC into the fight. Maybe even threatening a black out if they don't. They will blackout the FC but Hanse would have prepared for that and use the fax machines. He might even kick Comstar out. I also think he might be willing to unofficially help the other powers if it meant hurting Comstar. Should the other Houses get involved though it'd be a messy fight.

In this case, I could see a push towards more advanced tech. It's possible that the IS could have all the tech they do by the Jihad or at least the Improved Clan Weapons and the Prototypes from Operation Klondike. If there were Battle Armor I think it'd be limited to Exoskeletons though.

I would also like to think that there would have been some research put into LAMs.  They Clans wouldn't have destroyed the factory so they'd still be produced. I can easily see the other Houses wanting their own  LAM factories. I don't know that they'd get that far but I can see them trying. They are amazing scouts.

If things go like above the Clans I think, They run into an IS already at war with advanced weapons. That would give the Clans a seriously difficult fight. Even if the fight isn't IS wide. Advance tech will spread. Plus the other Houses would have been churning out war material as fast as possible, just in case. The best I can see is the Clans getting as far as they did in canon by calling up more Clans to help with the invasion.

Of course when the Clans do invade the Wolf's Dragoons would try to call for a cease fire among the IS Houses to inform them who the new invaders are. Comstar I think would also start trying to broker a peace between the House and move the ComGuards to the frontlines. If there were a Tukayyid I think it'd be made up of the ComGuards and a Coalition of House troops. I'm not sure they'd be the 2nd Star League or not but I think it''d be the start of it.

Fear Factory

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I know we've had this discussion in person a few times.

It would have been neat to see the base tech from city tech some time to move around for a bit longer. Also, it would have given some time for the FRR to take root as one of the major houses of the Inner Sphere.
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abou

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It's hard to imagine something wouldn't bring the FedCom and DC into war though. It is easy to imagine a Sandoval or a Warlord inciting some sort of conflict at the least.  Sure, the heirs were kept off the front lines in a move to prevent war, but that is hardly how things work out in the end.

R.Tempest

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 Comstar's activity would entirely depend on whether Myndo Waterly is still Primus. If she's been replaced (and I can't think of a reason she would be) then maybe Comstar will get more involved otherwise it will be business as usual.
 As a related question: Is the Concord of Kapteyn still in effect? It's been a while since I read through War of '39 but I don't recall their being much assistance for the Combine from the League or the Confederation during that conflict.

abou

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The Concord of K was never officially dissolved, but was never fully utilized either. I think there is certainly room for it to play a major roll in a "what if" scenario. The only agent that ever successfully infiltrated ComStar was Sharilar Mori from the DC. Then you throw in Thomas plus the FWL and I think you have a net that binds these powers together a bit tighter to counteract the FedCom.

Starfury

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Much also depends on Katherine Steiner Davion's actions in wanting to run the Federated Commonwealth.  If another succession war breaks out, does she blow up both Hanse and Melissa and then take over while Victor is fighting Kurita and Marik?  In addition, what does the Master do to strengthen the Kapetyn Accords so the war hits the right targets for the Third Transfer?  Does St. Ives decide to launch a preemptive strike against the Capellan Confederation since the FedCom can't help them, or get used as a staging ground for another invasion to finish the CappyCons once and for all?

And what about the Periphery? Does Taurian paranoia lead to supporting whichever powers attack the Fedrats in their new conflict? Does the Magistracy expand into unclaimed space and take advantage of Marik or the Capellans? Or do the ambitions of the Marian Hegemony build a new copy of TOG from Renegade Legion by conquering the Ilyrian Palantine, the Lothian League, and head into conflict with the Magistracy? Does Niops link up with one of the biggest fish and help spread the technology of the Helm Core to the rest of the states? What do the Northen Periphery powers do?

Starfury

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And during this exercise, does Kurita learn how to put DHS on the mechs that need them, and do we ever get a good Goliath or Quickdraw refit?

Warship

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A few ideas:

1.  With the extra ten years, Inner Sphere nations may have enough time to bring their weapons closer to Clan standards.
2.  Comstar, fearing the potential loss of their communications monopoly, might become more flexible in their dealings with
     the Great Houses.  This assumes Myndo blows a fuse suffering a debilitating stroke and is replaced by Focht.
3.  Political marriages occur.  Omi marries Victor, Hohiro marries Isis Marik, Sun Tzu marries Katherine.  Pre-WWI Europe. 
     All of the realms are united via marriage.  A new Golden Age of peace and scientific expansion occurs.  With three or
     more of the bloodlines combined, the surname of Cameron could be adopted.  The obvious choice would be the
     offspring of Victor and Omi.  Plans could then be made for the Marik and Liao lines to be added, once the kiddos grow
     up.  The idea of a unified Inner Sphere takes hold.
4.  Warship production, assuming no setbacks via Comstar, explodes allowing for perhaps 50 or more warships to exist
     by 3060.
5.  Periphery nations, not wanting to be left out, join in. 
6.  Wolf's Dragoons quietly alert the IS as to who they truly are.  This encourages cooperation between the realms.  A
     buildup of troops and war matériel begins.
7.  The invasion begins.  After a number of successful planetary invasions, the Clans run into warships fleets from the
     combined IS powers, Comstar included.  The Clans discover the IS practices real war with Clan Jumpships destroyed
     outright allowing Clan Dropships to be hunted down and destroyed short of their next targets.  The Invading Clans
     call for their warships to be brought down en masse, even allowing non-Invading Clans to partake. 
8.  Salvage taken so far by the IS forces increases the hunger and cooperation between the IS forces for more.  The
     superior numbers of IS forces drives back the invasion.  Interrogation of captured Clan warriors and personnel gives
     birth to a crusade against the Clans.  By 3070, all Clan Homeworlds are under occupation.

Colt Ward

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Alright . . . a few things in motion/happen before or without the Clans.

First, as mentioned Theo & Hanse sent their sons to the Periphery to let the next war pass on to their heirs.

Second, Romano is still trying to kill her sister & Justin.  Her final success is only tangentially related to the Clans- aka, Justin pulled analysts of following the CC to look at the new threat called the Clans.

Third, regional movements/powers still exist- Kelswa-Steiner's Tamar rebuild, Free Skye, James Sandoval & Drac March hate/fear, Takashi still runs his competing warlords paradigm, and of course the League's internal politics cause infighting.

Fourth, Joshua Fake-Marik is still ill but will die sooner because he does not travel to the NAIS.  Isis Legit-Marik is designated as a back-up heir but she will not meet Sun-Tzu.

Fifth, the tech recovery has been progressing with ComStar unable to completely stymie the development but the IS will be limited to Star League developed weapons- it means some sizes of LBX & UAC are not available to be recovered.  GDL may attempt to build Battle Armor, but would probably only have the Scouts- may not if they needed salvage Elementals to figure out the pieces.  Warships may happen but there is no drive b/c they would not have something to compete with (Clan ships) and the IS powers will not be handed keys to the design (ComStar tech transfer).

Sixth, the Dragoons maintain their feud with the Dragon, do not reveal their Clan tech (and thus keep building stockpiles), and do not take in bondsmen that lead to the Dragoons civil war.  Likely stay with their long term contract to the FedCom.

Seventh, no Omnis.  First Gen Omnis were captured Clan designs, most of them from the Battle for Luthien, where the salvage was heavily analyzed with each Omni a outsized IS built version.

Eighth, ComStar is still covertly hostile to the rest of the IS but only the DC has inside information.  The ComGuard are still kept hidden as much as possible, especially their tech edge.  Waterly is Primus and working against Hanse/FedCom.

Ninth, Arc Royal does not become a mercenary center- it remains home to the Kell Hounds, but its no longer a border magnet.

What it means for warfare-  The IS will not place as much emphasis on packing long range weapons to compete with the Clan's range advantage in cERLL, cLRMs, cERPPCs, cGauss. and small ACs along with later ER ATMs.  I think this means that you would see changes in designs like the Falconer or Gunslinger- designs meant to compete with the Clans for range & mobility.  I do know we would not see a Rakshasa outside of general development- if it did happen it would be different for the 2nd way the IS mimic'd the Clans- speed.  The no Clans Rakshasa would likely be 4/6 rather than 5/8 . . . and it might jump, being called something like the 'Super Catapult.'  The speeds set for mechs with the Succession Wars do not really change- so 4/6 for heavies mostly and 5/8 for mediums . . . take most the designs faster than that and slow them down to put more weapons on them.

Some events that are going to be changing . . .

Sun-Tzu takes over from the quickly cooling Romano . . .  but the Clans are not present as a threat, so he has to move a LOT more carefully up against Hanse- who while he may not want to fight the DC never said a thing about hacking off more from the Cappies- and Sun-Tzu will not have the convenient Op Bulldog/Serpent taking Victory & Kai out of the IS for him to move against SIC.  We also do not get the ripples from Word of Blake causing him to look to the MoC to form an alliance . . . but its a logical move and I think might have occurred eventually.  The real question is does the CC have the tech research/recovery to off to the MoC as payoff to join in alliance?  They will not have House Ijori raiding a Clan OZ or any other unit trying to get tech.  The Cappies would also be risking a harsh FedCom response by raiding them enough for the tech they need so the League might be a better target to get samples.  Rather than stirring the Chaos March (which would not exist) I expect Sun-Tzu to be supporting Kelswa-Steiner's Tamar rants and the Free Skye movement . . . perhaps even supporting some FRR nutcase wanting to take more Tamar worlds from the Lyran part of the FC.  Supporting rogue FRR faction invading the remaining Tamar worlds, with Kelswa-Steiner pushing to annex back all the worlds he lost to tie up the AFFC- especially of the DC gets involved- would give him the opportunity to try to retake the SIC.

No matter what happens, IMO it would be in Sun-Tzu's character to try to rebuild his shattered realm.

I think Thomas will consolidate his power in the League . . . which might lead to a League-FedCom war if tensions rise- it also gives him another means to consolidate that power with 'foreign' enemies.  IF Sun-Tzu goes after SIC and runs into a AFFC response to end the Confederation, the League would have to cross the border to take what they could from the failing state and preserve as much strategic power outside the FedCom's hands.

Other interesting question is . . . if the AFFC gets involved against the League, does Theodore change his mind?  would it get the TC to jump in to retake their conquered worlds?
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

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I pretty much agree almost entirely with Colt.

Far to many "changes" happened BECAUSE of the clans.

The entire Outreach Nobles & IS Trade Agreements between nations isn't going to happen.

You won't get the 3060 weapons breakthroughs in most cases because you won't have Clan Tech to use for ideas.

You'll get SLDF tech continuing to be produced & distributed but at a slower rate than we saw in canon since there was no rush & no cooperation.

No Omni's, No Mechs based off Clan Concepts or to deal w/ Clan Forces (Like the Above mentioned Rakshasa, but also stuff like the Komodo)

At best we might see the FC put Nighthawks back into production for Spec Ops units like the Infiltrator was, but you won't see the various other Light-Assault sized suits.

Maybe someday, 20 years later, someone comes up with a Light suit that is the stealthy big brother to the NightHawk, basically the Achilles for example.

No marriages of Isis or Omi.   Probably not even a Hanse heart attack since he wouldn't have been up late working OT stressed by the invasion & Scorpion.
It might still happen but it might be in the day time & medics might have gotten to him, etc etc.
At worse we see a late 50's era Victor taking over partial leadership of half the Realm while Hanse spends more time w/ Melissa on the opposite but still rotating throne.

Kat doesn't have to political instability of the Invasion timeline to put her into power even if she still tries an assassination.

Thomas was busy letting Merc out of their contracts & with Joshua due to die sooner he'll be in mourning & in no mindset to launch any Guerrero.

Sunny will eventually remove mommy from power but won't have a FWL ally to try to get frisky with.
Maybe instead he goes after St. Ives earlier but that ends up backfiring with no SLDF Peacekeepers to Utilize & the full weights of the Sarna March forces intact.

The DC was STILL recovering economically from the Wo39 when the Clans invaded so I don't see Teddy/Takashi getting frisky with the FC at all.
If anything, I see the FC doing some very small actions much like they did in the 3040's seeking to retake some of the worlds they lost in the 4th SW & Wo39, but slow & steady, no 5th SW.

We see that along the Lyran Border with Aubisson, Skondia, Alphecca in the 3040s.

I'm only surprised we didn't see Quentin & Marduk retaken in that same time frame for their Factories.


Tech you likely will still get..........   C3 obviously since it was Pre-Clans.   Also the Jihad era PPC revolution since it was based off SLDF tech.
Maybe MRMs,  Maybe RACs/LACs.   Also Heavy/Light Gauss.
Eventually the IS might come up with the expanded AC classes for LBX/Ultra, just not by 3058.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Yeah, I just don't see Quentin staying in DC hands in this case...

Colt Ward

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Oh, what I meant for the Falconer . . . instead of being 5/8/5 with a ERPPC, Gauss Rifle and 4 MLs it might be . . . ERLL, Gauss Rifle, 2 ERML, 2 ML, 1 more DHS and 1t more armor- basically something that will fight at 10-15 hexes or closer rather than sparing at 20-22 with a Clan design.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Minemech

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 The Free Worlds League Militia would be the most technologically advanced military in the Inner Sphere. They already were at the time of the Clan Invasion. Many of what it designed to export, would not exist.

 The Capellan Confederation would be rather moribund.

 The realms that form the Federated Commonwealth would be busy creating a better integrated. Victor might receive an education on how to be a serious statesman.

 Takashi would still be around.
« Last Edit: 12 February 2020, 18:21:37 by Minemech »

Colt Ward

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Not sure how you got the first one, the Clan Invasion forced the FedCom to share what they had learned from the NAIS & Helm Core with the League.  Not being at war allowed them to implement and become the arms producer for those fighting against the Clans.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

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I think the League already had a copy from the DC in the early 3040's.

They had lots of 3050 designs coming on line starting in 3045/46.

The invasion slowed down their own upgrades as much of it was shipped out.

But to say they would be the most advanced is a stretch.

The FC had the copy first & even before they got it were already working on DHS/CASE through the NAIS books.

The FC has something like 3 of the 4 Largest Mech manufactures in the IS inside its borders.  (Top 2 for sure)
  So they would have been well on their way to upgrading their mechs & have some of the earliest examples of production runs in 3042, IIRC.

Not to mention if anyone was going to get Dragoon knowledge in this hypothetical delay, it would have been the FC who they were contracted through & got their home world from..

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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 Much of the drive behind FedCom mech design was the Clan invasion. Many iconic mechs would never have need to be developed, such as the AFFC's Falconer, or even the FWLM's Albatross. You would likely see more Free Worlds League trooper mechs armed with Gauss Rifles (They were already heading that way with the Tempest), and more FedCom mechs equipped with ECM capabilities (NARC, and C3 get annoying). The DCMS are the wildcards, as they would lack omnis, but they can be surprisingly creative.

Hellraiser

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Not sure I'm seeing the FWL develop a fascination with the Gauss Rifle more than the Lyrans/Davion who have always been BigGun/Daka lovers.

Honestly, w/o the Clan Invasion, TRO3055/58 non-SLDF/Clan section would have been a 20 page document.

I think a whole lot of those mechs wouldn't have been developed.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Colt Ward

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Yeah, the 3050s trend with the FWL was . . . LRM developments, maybe Ultra ACs, and using NARC.  I also think we might have seen more ECM on FWL mechs to carry the ECCM role out against the Cappies.

What mechs would we have not seen from 55/58/60?
Bushwhacker- still under development as a failed prototype since Coventry would not have Clan designs to apply feature fixes
Rakshasa- no Timber Wolf, like I said at most a 'Super Cat' or Catapult II at 4/6/4 . . . but not likely
Falconer-  Maybe with XL engines allowing the speed to be cavalry, but like I mentioned the weapons load would be less long ranged focused
Watchman & Sentry-  No replacements needed on the DC border
Penetrator- heavier jumping Warhammer?  As someone said, its pretty much a WHM-6D upgrade
Kimodo- no Elementals to chase
Lineholder-  Chaos March does not develop
Grand Crusader/Raijin - No WoB
pretty much all of 3060
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Minemech

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 The whole reason the Light Gauss Rifle was developed was in hopes of putting the IS model within Clan standards. The FWLM first tested the Gauss on the Goliath, then moved it into platforms like the Tempest. You could argue that they were using mixes of AC10s, Large Lasers, and PPCs on their mechs, but so was everyone else at the time. TRO 3058 was a watershed work that created many stereotypes that are unfortunate.
 
Not sure I'm seeing the FWL develop a fascination with the Gauss Rifle more than the Lyrans/Davion who have always been BigGun/Daka lovers.
If you compare TRO 3058 with TRO 3025, you will find enormous inconsistency, not because the states did not have developed doctrine, but rather because TRO 3058 played favorites, to the point that the FWLM was basically left out. If you remove 3058 from your mind, and only use the TROs 3025, 3050, and 3055 to determine what future mechs would look like, 3058 is bonkers, outside of the IS omnis. In 3060, the FWLM was granted UAC 10s, which could compete with Gauss Rifles, but were different, yet that did not last past that book.

Minemech

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 Now you could argue that TRO 3058's formatting of the BattleTech universe was a necessary evil, that ultimately made states more interesting. The influences, positive, and negative, of given TROs are probably best saved for other threads.

Hellraiser

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I'm still not seeing it just with the Goliath & Tempest.


The FC for example from the same TROs


3050 :  Jaggermech-DG, Marauder-5S, Victor-9K/D, Banshee-5S
3055 :  Hollander, Falconer, Wardog, Gunslinger


There was plenty of Gauss love going around before TRO3058 came about.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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And the League was developing their LRM tech in the 30s & 40s- NARC, Artemis IV, Swarm ammo and Semi-G.  For instance, I would buy the League building the Apollo and Yeoman in this AU since it extends their LRM builds.  The Rifleman 5M would still be a Marik machine too.

In canon, they go LRM, ERLL, Light Guass & UAC/10 with alternate missile ammos also in the works.  The light gauss might drop out and the UAC/10 would be delayed IIRC- so more UAC/5s.
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Hellraiser

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I don't see the LGR even being developed  (Before the late part of the century anyway).

Ultra-10 & other "clan" upgrades of SLDF Tech, like the larger Streak racks etc etc I would see being around about 10-20 years later than they were introduced.  So end of the Jihad (70's)

That gives the IS a solid 20+ years of practice with SLDF tech & C3/TSM before they start researching into even more technical advancments.

I think maybe the 1 thing that "might" get developed still would be RAC/LAC since IIRC that was research based on the LB10X using lighter alloys, but even that is a stretch.


Basically without the Clans to even let the IS know that there is something better out there already to push them into research overdrive,  I think 20 years is as short of a delay as we might see & could easily be 50 years in some cases.  Which isn't extreme given the SLDF wouldn't release there best tech to the Houses for 50 years after each discovery & the Houses weren't out duplicating things in under that time from anything I've read.


I think TRO:3060 tech would have been more like TRO3085.

TRO3055/58 wouldn't exist other than a few units that could maybe combine parts of 55/58/60 into an entire TRO of what the IS might have created by about 3060-ish in that time range, w/o the Clan Invasion to spur them on.


The SLDF models would have been brought back still (Pillager, Excalibur, Lynx, Specter, etc etc)
Maybe a few new from scratch mechs just like how the Axeman, Wolftrap, Mauler were revealed in TRO3050, but not nearly the volume we saw.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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So I just went & looked at TRO3055 IS Light Mechs section.

10 Mechs there.

Of those 10,  I honestly can't say more than 4 of them would have been created w/o Invasion pushing them onward.


Tarantula,  Hitman,  Venom,  & possibly Scarabus


The rest just seem to overlap too much with existing designs or were flat out inspired to face the clans.


And frankly, I can't say that I'd miss any of them if they hadn't been invented.



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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

massey

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You'd probably have a lot more upgrade kits for 3025 mechs.  Without the Clan Invasion, you don't have massive numbers of older machines wiped out.  In real world terms, the Invasion provided a convenient excuse to write a bunch of new TROs (and eventually to stop showing any Unseen mechs).  So many regiments got annihilated that they had to push a bunch of new designs out the door.  Without the Invasion, there's no reason to build a bunch of new mechs when you can just upgrade old ones.

I think you'd basically see the 3050 upgrades (though maybe a little better thought out with no rush) gradually spreading throughout the Inner Sphere.

Politically, Hanse might want one more bite at the apple.  Does he go after the Combine again, or try to finish off the Capellan Confederation once and for all?  Does he pick a new target and try to conquer the Free Worlds League?  The only problem is I think the 3 non-FedCom empires can't sit still if he launches another attack.  Because at that point they'll know that it's only a matter of time before he comes after them.

And of course, on Outreach you've still got Jaime Wolf, who has to be wondering when the other shoe is going to drop. 

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I could see Hanse go after the TC, either after the Magistry joins the Capellans in alliance or in preparation for Inner Sphere operations.

Other hand . . . after Sun Tzu kills Romano would be a excellent time to run over that cripple.
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Minemech

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I'm still not seeing it just with the Goliath & Tempest.


The FC for example from the same TROs
3050 :  Jaggermech-DG, Marauder-5S, Victor-9K/D, Banshee-5S
Alright, you can cross out the Victor, as the only AC/20 toting mech that did not swap for a Gauss was the Hunchback, and it would not have been a terribly good platform for that weapon. Was the Jagermech DG from the Upgrades? I only have 3050R on hand, but it largely interchangeable with 3050. The MAD 5S was the Steiner equivalent to the League Goliath, down to the single ton of ammo. As for the Banshee, that thing was a monster, and well within the spirit of its predecessor. 

Quote
3055 :  Hollander, Falconer, Wardog, Gunslinger


There was plenty of Gauss love going around before TRO3058 came about.
The Wardog was used by everyone after the Irregulars discovered its specs at a Star League base they rediscovered due to a clan related storyline. The Hollander was made, because they realized that lights were not getting any damage off against clan mechs, but hoped that they could use the Kit Fox technique of an overarmed light to cause some pain. The Falconer, and Gunslinger were made explicitly to fight clanners, and like the Hollander, would probably have never come into fruition without the Clan Invasion. Fighting Clan mechs was hard, they had good movement, and far stronger damage, even with mediocre weapon layouts. The Executioner's description says it all.

 By contrast, TRO 3058 implies that the FedCom had specs for powerful Gauss boats all along, thus the desperation behind these designs was brushed aside. This completely rewrote the narrative behind the force design of the BattleTech universe.

Minemech

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So I just went & looked at TRO3055 IS Light Mechs section.

10 Mechs there.

Of those 10,  I honestly can't say more than 4 of them would have been created w/o Invasion pushing them onward.


Tarantula,  Hitman,  Venom,  & possibly Scarabus


The rest just seem to overlap too much with existing designs or were flat out inspired to face the clans.


And frankly, I can't say that I'd miss any of them if they hadn't been invented.
The Hammer fluff never made sense to me. The Tarantula, and Venom are descent mechs. The flavor text of the Hollander tries to explain away a crisis in light mech design, they are totally outclassed by the clans, unable to inflict even light damage in return.

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Alright, you can cross out the Victor, as the only AC/20 toting mech that did not swap for a Gauss was the Hunchback, and it would not have been a terribly good platform for that weapon. Was the Jagermech DG from the Upgrades? I only have 3050R on hand, but it largely interchangeable with 3050. The MAD 5S was the Steiner equivalent to the League Goliath, down to the single ton of ammo. As for the Banshee, that thing was a monster, and well within the spirit of its predecessor. 
 The Wardog was used by everyone after the Irregulars discovered its specs at a Star League base they rediscovered due to a clan related storyline. The Hollander was made, because they realized that lights were not getting any damage off against clan mechs, but hoped that they could use the Kit Fox technique of an overarmed light to cause some pain. The Falconer, and Gunslinger were made explicitly to fight clanners, and like the Hollander, would probably have never come into fruition without the Clan Invasion. Fighting Clan mechs was hard, they had good movement, and far stronger damage, even with mediocre weapon layouts. The Executioner's description says it all.

 By contrast, TRO 3058 implies that the FedCom had specs for powerful Gauss boats all along, thus the desperation behind these designs was brushed aside. This completely rewrote the narrative behind the force design of the BattleTech universe.


1.  The Atlas-7S kept its AC20.   The Axeman was made w/ an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle.   Why would the Victor have been inappropriate w/ an AC20 when it turned around & went back to an AC20 is more than 1 later model?

2.  Sooo, you get to disregard all 8 examples of FC usage of the Gauss Rifle PRE-3058 & keep your 2 to show a precedent?
Okay, I'm done talking about this now.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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so more UAC/5s.
UAC5s were used to replace the regular AC/5s on the Hermes II, and Shadow Hawk, and to increase the firepower and range of a Cicada. They were a cheap upgrade, and should not be seen as more.

Minemech

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1.  The Atlas-7S kept its AC20.   The Axeman was made w/ an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle.   Why would the Victor have been inappropriate w/ an AC20 when it turned around & went back to an AC20 is more than 1 later model?

2.  Sooo, you get to disregard all 8 examples of FC usage of the Gauss Rifle PRE-3058 & keep your 2 to show a precedent?
Okay, I'm done talking about this now.
I did not cross out the Banshee, I was admiring it. Frankly you are going to have to accept that 3055 goes to great lengths to explain that all FedCom designed Gauss boats in it were only made because the clans were scary. It does so in all three. The fourth was mismarked.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2020, 20:18:29 by Minemech »

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I’d be interested in hearing people’s thoughts on what would happen with Operation Scorpion, the real Thomas Marik, and the fake Marik puppet at the head of the League.
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Minemech

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1.  The Atlas-7S kept its AC20.   The Axeman was made w/ an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle.   Why would the Victor have been inappropriate w/ an AC20 when it turned around & went back to an AC20 is more than 1 later model?

I missed this on my screen scroll. That Atlas does seem to retain the AC/20, whilst rolling in erroneous upgrades.
 I think that AC/20s are better for some mechs, so you are preaching to the choir on the Victor. Part of 3050 was what is called "New toy syndrome." Technologies were applied to designs where they were not terribly useful. Others seem to have been applied for picket duty, with the idea of upgrading them later on.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2020, 20:37:52 by Minemech »

Minemech

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 That said, I do think that there would have been Gauss armed FedCom mechs without the Clan invasion, I just do not think that they would have looked like the Gunslinger, or the Hollander. I also think that they would have been competent and dangerous, possibly including that King Crab variant. There probably would have been greater proliferation of Arrows by most militaries also. The question is without the clans, how influential would the Knights of the Inner Sphere been?

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I’d be interested in hearing people’s thoughts on what would happen with Operation Scorpion, the real Thomas Marik, and the fake Marik puppet at the head of the League.

Scorpion was executed b/c Tukayyid was going off . . . so it never happens, and without Word of Blake does the Master ever matter?

IF we ended up with a 5th Succession War- say after the FC decides to finish the Cappies and the other two decide to get involved- then I think you might have seen Scorpion dusted off.
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Without looking up who made what, is it possible any of the FC mechs used Gauss Rifles made in the FWL? That would be in keeping with the FC buying weapons from the FWL.

massey

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 By contrast, TRO 3058 implies that the FedCom had specs for powerful Gauss boats all along, thus the desperation behind these designs was brushed aside. This completely rewrote the narrative behind the force design of the BattleTech universe.

Yeah, that's part of the post-Invasion retcon.  If I had to explain it away, I'd say that the big 3058 gauss mechs had probably been out of production for so long that they'd been forgotten about.  They were all basically late-Star League era wonder toys that only got built for a few years before the Succession Wars kicked off.  Historically they'd have been a fairly minor footnote, never manufactured in large enough numbers to survive into later eras, and too expensive to really be justified. 

Even notes saying that the Devastator started production in 3048 can be explained away by saying it was extremely low-rate production.  Which really makes sense, because the "cram as many gauss rifles as possible" method isn't necessarily the most effective design.  It's helpful versus the Clans, because of their great ranges.  But pre-Invasion, the Inner Sphere fought differently.  The gauss boats don't actually churn out as much damage as an old tech Stalker.

Until the Clans came around with their high-speed, long-range method of fighting, there was nothing pushing the Inner Sphere to adopt those types of designs.

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IMO the Devastator-2 is different than the Thunderhawk because you have the PPCs and MLs, its a better machine for fighting the IS than the Clans.  The DVS-1 was in production earlier IIRC.

But yeah, plumbing the Gauss Rifle FedCom designs . . . basically the Nightstar, Thunderhawk, and Devastator are the new builds, but the Lyran half of the FedCom was putting one on everything.

I think ranged fire will still skew designs towards that but not as extreme as the Invasion- the fighting increases from lance on lance to battalion on battalion with supports battles.  Designers would still want long ranged fire so they can mass it, but the balance calculations would be different . . . like the Devastator-2 mounts PPCs rather than ERPPCs to be able to maintain the rate of fire with heat limitations.  The mech cannot bear the heat burden of the ERs b/c its crit packed, so it was better to give it regular PPCs.  Or you are more likely to see the Nightstar 9FC as the primary model rather than the one we got b/c the Clans.

TRO 3058 to me was blowing off the dust from Helm recorded SL gauss designs b/c they were no longer desperate and were looking for better answers than their make-do during the Clan invasion.
Colt Ward
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In the 3040s-mid 3050s, the Gauss competed with the LB-10X AC as a main gun for troopers. Other popular alternatives were twin ER Large lasers, an ER PPC (Or 2), or a Large Pulse Laser.  The Lyran side seemed to have eschewed the LB-10X.

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Some of that IMO reflects the fractured nature of the League, but pre-LGR when I think FWL, its Large Lasers and LRMs.  I suggested the UAC/5 since we get it with several designs and if substituted for the Clan derived UAC/10 would also cover a lot of ground.  I can only think of a few League designs that were using Gauss Rifles, and the ERPPC would be present just for the Awesomes being able to finally get PPCs of any type being built again.

Actually, interesting FWL question . . . would we have seen a MAD-4M based off the -4X rather than a -5M?

For all that the FedCom, League and Dracs are the strongest realms with no Clan invasion, what happens 3050-3070 would IMO depend on Sun Tzu & the Capellan Confederation.  No Clan distraction, no cover of legitimacy from a 2nd Star League, possibly Hanse still kicking past 3050, and no Clan pushed arms race- how can Sun-Tzu get his Xin Sheng going?

Sunny would be the pivot point that kicked off a 5SW IMO.
Colt Ward
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I give it even money if we see ER medium, ER Small, Streak 4 and Streak 6 in 10 years. Similar for the rest of the A/C families. You can bet that SLDF King Crab drivers looked at those Hermes punks with their spiffy new Ultra A/C 5's and asked, "Why can't I have Ultras?"  That's not a case of needing the Clans to push innovation. That's just a matter of "we haven't figured it out yet."

Other's have said that mechs, especially the heavy cav role, won't be quite as fast. I agree that most of the weight savings would go into weapons. Everyone had gotten along just fine without maxed armor on everything for centuries.  The 3050 crop would see a lot more firepower, but not much change in armor levels.  So a lot of mechs are going to die, pretty quickly. But then I expect development to kind of mirror the main timeline. Designers will start to explore other corners of the iron triangle.   Eventually we have a swing back to SFE's, like in TRO3060.   

C3 would never have taken off.  It was almost exclusive to DCMS for a long time, even with the Outreach agreement.  But the only reason the DCMS used it was because they were at a disadvantage against the Clanners.  In a "fair" fight against AFFC units, few if any samurai would "stoop" to using C3. 

Technologies we would not see are light gauss, and heavy/light PPC.  Okay, maybe the light PPC might show up, if that's an outgrowth of the snubbie, which was developed back during the Star League.  The hPPC was a direct answer to the ruinous cERPPC, and the light gauss was an attempt to match the Clan gauss.  I'm not sure about HGR and iHGR.   Light engines probably wouldn't happen, and neither would heavy or light ferro fiberous.
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Minemech

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Some of that IMO reflects the fractured nature of the League
Actually it was an issue afflicting every state. Part of choosing a main gun is dependent upon a mech's profile, and the initial upgrades of many mechs in 3050 were upped versions of the same things. The LB-10X had a special utility in that it was a magnificent tool for combined arms, something that the Lyran side did not seem to appreciate, yet the Davion side immediately exploited on its troopers like the Enforcer, or Centurion.

Minemech

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  I suggested the UAC/5 since we get it with several designs and if substituted for the Clan derived UAC/10 would also cover a lot of ground.  I can only think of a few League designs that were using Gauss Rifles, and the ERPPC would be present just for the Awesomes being able to finally get PPCs of any type being built again.


Quote
Actually, interesting FWL question . . . would we have seen a MAD-4M based off the -4X rather than a -5M?
Is this more of a question of if the League would update the Binary Laser? I think that it is likely.

Quote
For all that the FedCom, League and Dracs are the strongest realms with no Clan invasion, what happens 3050-3070 would IMO depend on Sun Tzu & the Capellan Confederation.  No Clan distraction, no cover of legitimacy from a 2nd Star League, possibly Hanse still kicking past 3050, and no Clan pushed arms race- how can Sun-Tzu get his Xin Sheng going?

Sunny would be the pivot point that kicked off a 5SW IMO.
Xin Sheng would have to trap the AFFC units into committing war crimes against civilians, and then broadcast them all over the Inner Sphere. He would have to respond in a limited, and proportionate manner, and hope that the outrage acts as cover. It would not be enough to retake commonalities, but it could nab items if successful.

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Good point about the light engines, but I am not sure about the different FF armors.  Both of them to me would be efforts to adjust the armor side of that design triangle.  Something that would be interesting . . . would we get the Enhanced ERPPC the Widowmakers developed?

C3 would never have taken off.  It was almost exclusive to DCMS for a long time, even with the Outreach agreement.  But the only reason the DCMS used it was because they were at a disadvantage against the Clanners.  In a "fair" fight against AFFC units, few if any samurai would "stoop" to using C3. 

This I disagree with, because Theodore was Gunrei and in charge of the DCMS . . . now, would the Sword of Light regiments get C3i?  No, but the Ghost, Ryuken and Genoshya would take those mechs.  The DCMS having a split personality between the samurai and warfighters existed before the Clans ever showed up, Theo was involved in sparking it during the War of 3039.


Xin Sheng was about a rebirth of Capellan pride . . . not sure how getting war crime'd would do that for the CapCon.  Sunny would have a very limited opening to gain victories to usher in that rebirth . . . in fact all I can think of unless the FedCom gets really wrapped up or distracted on the Clan Invasion level would be to ally with the Magistracy and invade parts of the TC.  Just do not hit any FedCom border worlds where the nukes are waiting for Hanse's boys.

Or go for the diplomatic coup and bring in the New Detroit area as a new commonality.  Gives you the public message 'Look- we are so great these folks came back centuries after we abandoned them to rejoin the great Confederation!'
Colt Ward
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Xin Sheng was about a rebirth of Capellan pride . . . not sure how getting war crime'd would do that for the CapCon.  Sunny would have a very limited opening to gain victories to usher in that rebirth . . . in fact all I can think of unless the FedCom gets really wrapped up or distracted on the Clan Invasion level would be to ally with the Magistracy and invade parts of the TC.  Just do not hit any FedCom border worlds where the nukes are waiting for Hanse's boys.

Or go for the diplomatic coup and bring in the New Detroit area as a new commonality.  Gives you the public message 'Look- we are so great these folks came back centuries after we abandoned them to rejoin the great Confederation!'
The cultural propaganda side of Xin Sheng would go along, just as other Liao have used the tactic before. Xin Sheng, without the reconquest, would be a footnote.

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Depends on how its spun and how the Mask sets up the discontented to be fodder for the 'Victorious Capellans' propaganda mill.  The New Colonies Region, Aurian Coalition, and further into the Periphery is the 'safest' direction the CapCon can go to help build national pride and retake what was lost.

After that, formenting a Skye rebellion (and how would that work in '57 & '65) or the Tamar/FRR competing claims distracting the FedCom might let him take a stab at the SIC.  But to be successful, I think the Allard-Liao family would have to be taking a family photo on metal risers on wet ground and the extension cord runs through a puddle next to them.  Reabsorb the SIC to be under the Liao family.

Would Kai have ever become Champion?
Colt Ward
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Depends on how its spun and how the Mask sets up the discontented to be fodder for the 'Victorious Capellans' propaganda mill.  The New Colonies Region, Aurian Coalition, and further into the Periphery is the 'safest' direction the CapCon can go to help build national pride and retake what was lost.

After that, formenting a Skye rebellion (and how would that work in '57 & '65) or the Tamar/FRR competing claims distracting the FedCom might let him take a stab at the SIC.  But to be successful, I think the Allard-Liao family would have to be taking a family photo on metal risers on wet ground and the extension cord runs through a puddle next to them.  Reabsorb the SIC to be under the Liao family.

Would Kai have ever become Champion?
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Good point about the light engines, but I am not sure about the different FF armors.  Both of them to me would be efforts to adjust the armor side of that design triangle.  Something that would be interesting . . . would we get the Enhanced ERPPC the Widowmakers developed?
  If I was running the lab, you can bet we would have explored the different FF armors.  And light PPCs and heavy ppcs, and then when the snubnose came out, I would have tried to make a heavy snubbie. But I'm that kind of researcher. 

Results are still hard to predict.  A colleague was telling me how our university became a center for research in a particular field just because there was the right concentration of various specialists.  It came down to somebody was having lunch with a friend from another department one day.  Suddenly people over in chemistry are writing papers that are tangentially related to research being done over Agricultural Engineering, then a couple papers come out of the bio department.  Then the comp sci folks hear about this really thorny computer modeling problem, and think they can get a paper out of it.

A jump like the Enhanced ER PPC would require that kind of synthesis.  The hPPC is much bigger and heavier, but the EERPPC is the same size yet hits harder.  That's a sea change.


This I disagree with, because Theodore was Gunrei and in charge of the DCMS . . . now, would the Sword of Light regiments get C3i?  No, but the Ghost, Ryuken and Genoshya would take those mechs.  The DCMS having a split personality between the samurai and warfighters existed before the Clans ever showed up, Theo was involved in sparking it during the War of 3039.
I generally agree with you on the units you listed, but there are a lot of other units in the DCMS.  Most folks in the Legion And most of those troops probably dream about scoring transfers to the Sword of Light. The Ryuken might get on board wtih C3, but Genoshya seems more more conservative.   The Legion of Vega would be all over C3.  And what's interesting is that as people transfer back to their old units after serving their penence in the Legion, they might bring new ideas and tech with them. 
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Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Hellraiser

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Without the Outreach conference....   I see C3 as being a niche tech that about 1/3 of the DC uses & no one else in the IS has even heard of for a good 20 years.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Maingunnery

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Some of that IMO reflects the fractured nature of the League, but pre-LGR when I think FWL, its Large Lasers and LRMs.  I suggested the UAC/5 since we get it with several designs and if substituted for the Clan derived UAC/10 would also cover a lot of ground.  I can only think of a few League designs that were using Gauss Rifles, and the ERPPC would be present just for the Awesomes being able to finally get PPCs of any type being built again.

Actually, interesting FWL question . . . would we have seen a MAD-4M based off the -4X rather than a -5M?

For all that the FedCom, League and Dracs are the strongest realms with no Clan invasion, what happens 3050-3070 would IMO depend on Sun Tzu & the Capellan Confederation.  No Clan distraction, no cover of legitimacy from a 2nd Star League, possibly Hanse still kicking past 3050, and no Clan pushed arms race- how can Sun-Tzu get his Xin Sheng going?

Sunny would be the pivot point that kicked off a 5SW IMO.
I think that the FC is going to be the aggressor for the 5SW, with them putting 'new' powerful designs into production as a preparation to invade. 
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massey

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Without the Clans hitting the LC half of the FedCom, I don’t think the Capellans are going to have any prayer of retaking worlds from the Fed Suns.  The Clans threw everything out of whack and distracted half of the Inner Sphere from their traditional rivalries.  Any attempt to counter-invade would be met by Davion smackdown.

In fact, if Hanse wanted to kick off a 5th Succession War, that might be how he’d have to do it. Lure the Capellans into attacking first so that he can act justified when he smashes their realm.

Colt Ward

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I think that the FC is going to be the aggressor for the 5SW, with them putting 'new' powerful designs into production as a preparation to invade.

Except in 3049 Hanse clearly stats that he and Theo have a tacit agreement to let the FS-DC wars pass to a new generation.  Which means if he DOES plan some action, its not against the DC unless something drastically changes IMO and it would be something fast or small so it would be over with before the DC/League can take advantage.  I mean from the FedCom angle, invading the Taurians would make a good training exercise except for that whole fanatics with nukes and a paranoid Calderon thing.

Unless Thomas power weakens for some reason which invites a push from the LC portion.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Daryk

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The Capellans would absolutely be an easier target than the Taurians.

Maingunnery

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Except in 3049 Hanse clearly stats that he and Theo have a tacit agreement to let the FS-DC wars pass to a new generation.  Which means if he DOES plan some action, its not against the DC unless something drastically changes IMO and it would be something fast or small so it would be over with before the DC/League can take advantage.  I mean from the FedCom angle, invading the Taurians would make a good training exercise except for that whole fanatics with nukes and a paranoid Calderon thing.

Unless Thomas power weakens for some reason which invites a push from the LC portion.
No need to say "except", I never suggested the DC.

But a side-note, if another state falls to the FC, such as the CC, then the other players (DC, FWL, Periphery, ComStar?) would be forced to form a new pseudo 'Star League' to counter FC aggression.
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Minemech

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Without the Outreach conference....   I see C3 as being a niche tech that about 1/3 of the DC uses & no one else in the IS has even heard of for a good 20 years.
A formidable technology when employed correctly. It is fair to assume that the states will be raiding each other consistently, but at a careful pace, so they may gain the right understanding to do so.

Minemech

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Yeah, that's part of the post-Invasion retcon.  If I had to explain it away, I'd say that the big 3058 gauss mechs had probably been out of production for so long that they'd been forgotten about.  They were all basically late-Star League era wonder toys that only got built for a few years before the Succession Wars kicked off.  Historically they'd have been a fairly minor footnote, never manufactured in large enough numbers to survive into later eras, and too expensive to really be justified. 

Even notes saying that the Devastator started production in 3048 can be explained away by saying it was extremely low-rate production.  Which really makes sense, because the "cram as many gauss rifles as possible" method isn't necessarily the most effective design.  It's helpful versus the Clans, because of their great ranges.  But pre-Invasion, the Inner Sphere fought differently.  The gauss boats don't actually churn out as much damage as an old tech Stalker.

Until the Clans came around with their high-speed, long-range method of fighting, there was nothing pushing the Inner Sphere to adopt those types of designs.
Unfortunately, they became seen as defining designs, rather than a desperate response to a problem.

Hellraiser

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When you say "always had them" are you saying they had them from the time of the SLDF?

My understanding was the 3058 mechs were also included in the Helm Core but never had downgraded L1 versions that stayed in partial production.  (Except the Lynx, IIRC)

They were only put back into production after factories were repaired around the same time the IS was also looking at new mech (3055) designs.

They were not purely exclusive to the FC, though they did get quite a few.  Probably to offset the flood of Omni's the DC got.
DC was making the Lynx.
CC was making the Pillager.
CS was making the Excalibur.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Minemech

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When you say "always had them" are you saying they had them from the time of the SLDF?

My understanding was the 3058 mechs were also included in the Helm Core but never had downgraded L1 versions that stayed in partial production.  (Except the Lynx, IIRC)

They were only put back into production after factories were repaired around the same time the IS was also looking at new mech (3055) designs.

They were not purely exclusive to the FC, though they did get quite a few.  Probably to offset the flood of Omni's the DC got.
DC was making the Lynx.
CC was making the Pillager.
CS was making the Excalibur.
House Davion got the Devastator specs from a SLDF base, before getting their hands on the Core. They apparently had quietly upgraded them in time for the Clan invasion. They did so soo quietly, that they themselves seemed unaware that they were even fielding upgraded Devastators at the time.
 
 

Minemech

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The Pillager was a late addition to the SIC. I should note that the SIC was really into upgunned, and overarmored mechs, because they knew that the Capellan Confederation was gunning for them. They were also into jump jets. It is true that it was retro-Star League, but it still entered production in the late 3050s.
« Last Edit: 22 February 2020, 22:26:24 by Minemech »

Minemech

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 The Excalibur broke many a Comstar Player's heart, because it had the armor of a Hermes II. Comstar players were used to a lack of armor, but that one overdid it. Gauss snipers can get away with less armor, but there are minimum armor/firepower ratios needed for survival. In fact, it does not have enough armor to guard your LRM boats.

Kujo

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3039 would so the Combine is more trouble then they are worth at the moment, so if I was Hanse I would continue Galahad exercises, integrate the Sarna March, build up the infrastructure of the Cappellan and Tamarind Marches (also build fighter carriers and transport jumpships rather then battle wagons or even Fox class corvettes) and say 3055, Galahad becomes operation Crushed Dao and roasted Turkey.  Build up forces and finish off the CC and shatter the Free Worlds league (by taking a third to half of it).  Hell leave some CC worlds open for the Taurians to take and have them choose between an easy set of conquests or being the 'next' march of the Federated Commonwealth while giving the MOC assistance with the FWL.  Sure the Combine will attack, and that's why you have roughly six regiments of Wolf's Dragoons to have them replay misery with.  You lose likely 20 worlds from the Draconis and Skye Marches while you gain roughly 300 or 400 from the CC and FWL.  You have the FWL where the CC was after the 4th war (if not already shattered into smaller, more easily conquerable states), the CC is GONE, you may of made a friend with the MOC, and the Taurians will have to use their limited armed forces to integrate Cappellan worlds that have been oppressed by the likes of Romano Liao.  FWL-CC would be where I would focus on, as well as ensure I have the Jumpships to do it and the bait to pull the minor powers if not to my side to something much more productive for them and I.  Thank you.
For the FEDCOM For the Archon-Prince

Daryk

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Heck, if you're going to stomp the Capellans, all you'd have to do is promise Andurien their freedom to continue on into the FWL...

Colt Ward

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Heck, if you're going to stomp the Capellans, all you'd have to do is promise Andurien their freedom to continue on into the FWL...

a la Tikonov Free Republic?  It will have been 10-15 years since they rose up . . .
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."