Where Are The People Movers?

[SCC]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

[Daryk]

Seekers are kind of expensive, but might have the capacity you need.  Also, instead of people in cargo bays, I (and others) have figured you can install "Bay" quality quarters in conex boxes in the cargo bay (along with additional water and air recycling, also in conex boxes).  It's less uncomfortable, and burns through less in the way of consumables.

[The_Caveman]

A single converted Mule could haul 1700 people in Steerage-grade quarters. Just how many personnel do you need to move?

Assuming a tail:tooth ratio of about 10:1 you could support a reinforced 'Mech regiment with one such vessel and still have room for bulk cargo. Or have three of them hanging from a single Invader carrying 500 people each and 6000 tons of cargo.

For military purposes I figure that's what most transport ships look like: permanently or temporarily converted cargo ships.

[SCC]

Seekers are kind of expensive, but might have the capacity you need.  Also, instead of people in cargo bays, I (and others) have figured you can install "Bay" quality quarters in conex boxes in the cargo bay (along with additional water and air recycling, also in conex boxes).  It's less uncomfortable, and burns through less in the way of consumables.

The rules I mentioned above pretty much spell out that turn cargo bays into infantry bays with 0 problems, which is why I picked them.

A single converted Mule could haul 1700 people in Steerage-grade quarters. Just how many personnel do you need to move?

Assuming a tail:tooth ratio of about 10:1 you could support a reinforced 'Mech regiment with one such vessel and still have room for bulk cargo. Or have three of them hanging from a single Invader carrying 500 people each and 6000 tons of cargo.

For military purposes I figure that's what most transport ships look like: permanently or temporarily converted cargo ships.

It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

[Daryk]

The section on personnel in cargo bays talks about three different levels of accommodations, and each has its own rate of consumable consumption.  Infantry bays are the middle level.

[Jellico]

It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

The advantage of the military haulers is the repair bay and combat drops.

In a permissive environment it is just a matter on unloading times.

[SCC]

There are two problems with using military DS:
1) Little to no cargo space and generally no ability to carry passengers.
2) With the way CO handles force ratings unless we're prepared to accept an unusually high level of modification of DS things get interesting.

To deal with the lack of bays I was looking at purchasing several Wayland Mobile Bases, and/or designing a support vehicle to lug around some cubicles.

[The_Caveman]

Well again, how many people are we talking about moving? Without knowing the size of your force this is a "how long is a piece of string" problem.

[idea weenie]

The rules I mentioned above pretty much spell out that turn cargo bays into infantry bays with 0 problems, which is why I picked them.
It't not just personnel, this is going to be the sole DS for my entire force, if I score it.

Just remember it is a Mule, not a combat Dropship.  It will have less acceleration and armor than a Leopard Dropship, and any Mech Bays will either be dropping Mechs off only when grounded, or you have to install doors for mechs to deploy from.  ASF bays similarly will need to use cranes to deploy and recover ASF.

I recommend mainly Garrison/cadre contracts, so you don't have to worry about your only (weak/slow) ride being shot down.

If you can upgrade it over time to have better protection that is good, though a dedicated combat Dropship would be better.

[snewsom2997]

I would maybe look at a Condor (Always in Production), or its Cargo variant the Stork (Produced After the Jihad). If using a Condor strip out the Vehicle an Infantry Bays and replace with 1st and 2nd Class Passenger Berths. I would rather have 2-3 Condors transporting my tail instead of a single Mule. Unless transporting AStechs or Grunt Infantry I would stay away from steerage passenger berths. If you want to make some side money on your Contract there is also a Condor Variant called the Dove (Produced Since the SW) which is a Hospitalship. For garrison Contracts in the Outback or Periphery having a large medical staff to provide healthcare for locals builds some nice bridges. While on contract you can also lease intra system, and intra planetary transport. Loads of Livestock, water/ice, ores, timber, etc. If you have your own jumpship, you can make that interplanetary transport. 

Plus with the Condor Family of Dropships you will have interchangeable parts, and it will reduce the types of spare parts you would have to carry, easier to source parts too, Condors are common droppers. The Dropship is produced by the Combine and the FW.

[truetanker]

Ugh... so many bad choices...

WHY?

Why so many " strip this " or " strip that "?

Ugh... headaches... please shoot me now...

List of Combat dropships with Infantry carrying capacity.

Drost IIA ~ 2 bays of 5 Platoons each... ( A platoon can be 30 or down ) That's 300 people!
Czar ~ 2 bays of 18 Platoons each... ( Hope you can add... ) That's 1,080... so she's old, so what?
Vulture ~ A bay of 6 Platoons... But... but... it's a Primitive. (whiney sniffle) So, their very effective! Better cause you don't expect 3025 era weapons on an ancient unit!

TT
 :thumbsup:

[Talen5000]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

Where are they? Largely non existent. Interstellar travel is expensive and dangerous and doesn't really offer a lot that you cannot find on your home world or, failing that, in system.

Having said that, if you want to move lots of people it can be done. There are colonisation ships after all and they have to move a few thousand people at a time. The Bears had the Leviathans - but I still think they had to have simply installed 250,000 cryo pods on that thing.

In the end, it comes down to how many people do you have to move? Over what distance? What length of time?To what degree of comfort? And do you have the time needed to convert whatever DropShips you have - not so much in the way of putting in walls and a bed, but installing life support and facilities to sustain the number of people you have to transport.

And no - cryo stasis isn't an option for the IS.

Your best bet is probably hiring out extra liners and dividing existing cabin space and cargo space, and install some portable life support equipment.

[Dave Talley]

i advise a union for the mechs and fighters,
and the seeker for all else, my favorite DS
use the container quarters as mentioned above,
the nice part is if its a long term contract they can haul the
containers out and reconnect them in a warehouse or hangar
for a base

[The_Caveman]

List of Combat dropships with Infantry carrying capacity.

Drost IIA ~ 2 bays of 5 Platoons each... ( A platoon can be 30 or down ) That's 300 people!
Czar ~ 2 bays of 18 Platoons each... ( Hope you can add... ) That's 1,080... so she's old, so what?
Vulture ~ A bay of 6 Platoons... But... but... it's a Primitive. (whiney sniffle) So, their very effective! Better cause you don't expect 3025 era weapons on an ancient unit!

Those are all bad choices for a mercenary unit, where "home" and "transportation" are very likely to be the same thing. Infantry bays are bare-minimum life support and living space. You get a sleeping rack and a footlocker and air that won't kill you but smells like 300 other dudes. No recreation or training facilities, no dining facilities, no office space for logistics personnel, and even shower and toilet facilities are going to be the bare minimum to prevent disease and no more. JumpShip crews aren't going to be happy with you either when 300 mercs start demanding time on their grav deck.

If you expect people to live aboard-ship for months at a time (which is very likely the case when your merc outfit is getting shipped halfway across the IS for a contract) without a mutiny brewing, you need to provide at least steerage quarters.

This thread pops up every few months. The consensus is that infantry bays are the minimum requirement to keep people aboard long-term without killing them, they're not a solution to base housing.

You can fit steerage quarters for two people in a 10-ton shipping container. That's likely the most common solution, and it's still rather spartan. You're talking about two people sharing a 320 sq ft studio apartment. Infantry bays would put 56 people in that same space.

[SCC]

This thread pops up every few months. The consensus is that infantry bays are the minimum requirement to keep people aboard long-term without killing them, they're not a solution to base housing.

I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

[The_Caveman]

Given that some of that tonnage is going to be furniture, water for bathing, breathable air and spare gas for pressurization, and other stuff that doesn't really benefit from advancing technology, I doubt that SL tech makes any real improvements on the density of people you can pack into the ship. More likely it improves their quality of life. SL-era steerage quarters are probably more like 3025 second-class (in amenities, not space) and so on.

[Colt Ward]

The other thing to think of . . . is this is a wargame.  I do not remember seeing the troop transport conversion of the QE or other liners listed in Jane's Fighting Ships.  So just like we were originally told 'there are other cargo DS out there' and 'other variants of the Union exist carrying all sorts of X, Y & Z' we should also have additional civilian shipping present (remember, the biggest bottleneck was always JS collars since late Succession Wars).  We get some of the first answer (other cargo DS) with the fluff on the DroST talking about how it was cloned across the Inner Sphere and Periphery by other producers . . . so you may have a 'Dragonfly' class Dropship built out in the Concordat by VMI's plant on Illiushin, but its a clone/license of the DroST and they can interchange parts.  We did get the Jumbo along with other designs, and I would take the Jumbo every time over the Mule for three simple reasons- 1) thicker armor, 2) small craft bays, 3) more cargo space.

[Daryk]

*snip*
You can fit steerage quarters for two people in a 10-ton shipping container. That's likely the most common solution, and it's still rather spartan. You're talking about two people sharing a 320 sq ft studio apartment. Infantry bays would put 56 people in that same space.
*snip*

60, actually.  The maximum size of a platoon is 30, so two platoons of Foot Infantry is 60.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it's comfortable.

[Colt Ward]

60, actually.  The maximum size of a platoon is 30, so two platoons of Foot Infantry is 60.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it's comfortable.

It could be plenty comfortable . . . b/c personal space would be measured by volume, which we do not use for AT2.

[Hellraiser]

So doing some campaign thinking and I thought that it might be easier/cheaper to get a couple of civilian DropShips, one cargo and one passenger, to move my force around. The problem with this is rather simple: There don't seem to be any large-scale passenger carrying DropShips. Sure there's the Monarch and Princess, but their neither what I would call common nor what I imagine a merc unit would use to move it's people around.

So what should I do? The easiest answer would seem to be use the Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays rules, which involves dividing total personal by 28 and then multiplying by 5 to figure out how many tons the bays would occupy and then subtracting that from cargo space, possibly making this a permanent modification.

1.  How large is the unit.

2.  This is just for World to World transport right?   Your not living out of it right?    (That was mentioned above as possible but I think its a bad idea so clarifying.)

[Daryk]

It could be plenty comfortable . . . b/c personal space would be measured by volume, which we do not use for AT2.

True, but having done deck plans based on the canon dimensions of DropShips, I'm inclined toward about 8 per TEU (double stacked racks) to be even close to "comfortable".  You could make that 12 (triple stacked racks), but I don't know how "comfortable" that would be.  Submarine crews have long chosen sleeping in the torpedo room (a space with an active watch stander) to hot racking (time sharing bunks).  The most cramped I've personally experienced was racks stacked four high on a WWII era minesweeper, and the communal head still had a trough urinal.  My teenage self didn't think it was too bad, but that was a pretty low bar.

[Robroy]

True, but having done deck plans based on the canon dimensions of DropShips, I'm inclined toward about 8 per TEU (double stacked racks) to be even close to "comfortable".  You could make that 12 (triple stacked racks), but I don't know how "comfortable" that would be.  Submarine crews have long chosen sleeping in the torpedo room (a space with an active watch stander) to hot racking (time sharing bunks).  The most cramped I've personally experienced was racks stacked four high on a WWII era minesweeper, and the communal head still had a trough urinal.  My teenage self didn't think it was too bad, but that was a pretty low bar.

I did a six month cruise in a 120 man bearth with triple stacked bunks. I did not think it to bad, but I also had 12-16 hour work days to. I guess it is also depends on other things to do. Things to keep everyone occupied.

[Daryk]

The Air Department on all the carriers I served aboard seemed very keen to work all their Sailors as hard as possible.  The theory seemed to be if they allowed any spare energy to their crew, there would be trouble... This included arranging chow to be served where the flight deck folks could get to it without going down to the mess decks...

[The_Caveman]

The Air Department on all the carriers I served aboard seemed very keen to work all their Sailors as hard as possible.  The theory seemed to be if they allowed any spare energy to their crew, there would be trouble... This included arranging chow to be served where the flight deck folks could get to it without going down to the mess decks...

And this on a vessel where it's at least technically possible to go outside and get some fresh air once or twice a day. Submariners do without it, of course, but their crews are smaller than surface ships of the same size and I have to imagine more or less hand-picked for their ability to operate in those conditions.

What do you do with 300 mercs who are stuck with a refrigerator's worth of personal space for 90 days at a time? Even with the sim pods running 24/7 and everyone doing shifts in the 'Mech bay, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling or monotonous busywork. Which, to be fair, is what I'm told military life is mainly about, but BTU mercs are also generally the kind of people who weren't cut out for the regular army. I foresee a morale crisis.

[Daryk]

Yes, submarine crews are hand picked, and small enough that you're either on watch, doing maintenance, eating or sleeping for the vast majority of your time.

[Colt Ward]

What do you do with 300 mercs who are stuck with a refrigerator's worth of personal space for 90 days at a time? Even with the sim pods running 24/7 and everyone doing shifts in the 'Mech bay, that's a lot of thumb-twiddling or monotonous busywork. Which, to be fair, is what I'm told military life is mainly about, but BTU mercs are also generally the kind of people who weren't cut out for the regular army. I foresee a morale crisis.

Which is where you get some hilarious random events in HBS- like bowling down the hallways, tinkering with a weapon, or one last night was creating a catapult out of pasta.

[Sartris]

people in the BTU turn into meat logs onboard spaceships. You just dump them into a mule like minnows in a tank. The strat ops rules just force you to feed them now  :D

[The_Caveman]

people in the BTU turn into meat logs onboard spaceships. You just dump them into a mule like minnows in a tank. The strat ops rules just force you to feed them now  :D

You know.... with the Clanners' taboo about aging, you'd think they'd looooove them some cryo-pods. Any time you're on a long space voyage you popsicle up and keep those dreaded solahma years a little further away.

Which is where you get some hilarious random events in HBS- like bowling down the hallways, tinkering with a weapon, or one last night was creating a catapult out of pasta.

Of course the Argo is a luxury liner compared to 300 dudes stuffed into the belly of a DroST. Given the size of the ship relative to the size of the crew, the cabins must seem palatial to anyone who's lived aboard a Leopard for a few years.

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure Cray trotted out all the numbers and the DS all have LOTS of volume . . . in some cases too much really.  As for the Argo?  Well you have those hab pods, but I usually do not get the 3rd one refurb'd nor do I get the 3rd set of 6 mech cubicles done.  Which I grant is b/c I am cheap and exploiting some things in the game I would not in regular BTU- I can only drop 4 mechs, maybe have 4 in a row twice for a total of 8, so why do I need 18 mechs on standby?  Heck, first time through the campaign I only kept 10 up in the cubicles.

But for RP in the wider BTU?  I go back to modern personnel management and one of the things I read in old WEG's Star Wars Pirate & Privateers.  The main privateer in that discusses crew management with a simple agreement that he heats his ship at a higher temperature than the military standard of the Alliance or Empire, and yes he fed his crew better with more fresh food than was typical in military or commercial ships.  Unlike the military, his crew were volunteers who signed up and after a cruise if they did not like the conditions they could have gone elsewhere.  Better living conditions and food, while having upfront costs paid off in the long run by keeping the crew happy & eager which meant they did not have turnover so he was able to keep his crew as they gained experience.  Aside from the hot/cold being reversed- I think William Keith/Ian Douglas Warstrider's normal space heat build up is more accurate for operating ships- it all to me makes sense.  Even in the military you can see better commanders make efforts to get their troops better food- either hotter, fresher, or supplemented- when its possible.  Making sure the mess section has hot fresh coffee and cold beverages for midnight watches is a good sign compared to walking in the CQ to find old/cold stale coffee in a pot left over from the working day.  For field exercises, getting ice when possible out to as many vehicles & crews.  Heck, I heard about one battery on base that had something happen to their mess section so the CO & 1SG ordered pizza to be delivered . . . they drove up to the delivery car which had driven out to a empty field to meet the hummer.

So for me, part of my RP'ing as the commander of a merc unit is to provide better living conditions than they might get as part of the regular forces.  For example, squad sized rooms rather than platoon bays in long term garrison.  Shipping a container that is for R&R- work out equipment (some of which will can be used in micro-g), projector (which can be used in the mech bay on a hatch) which is also useful for briefings, some sports equipment, climbing gear, and others.

Then again, they have two dropships- a Fortress and a Mule convert.  The Mule is for support & follow-on (more infantry & armor) forces so it has more quality of life facilities than the Fortress which is a attack ship.

I honestly think when they wrote some of the troop transport fluff, they were watching some of the WWII Pacific movies where the troops were stacked with barely any space . . . and no one thought out the calculations Cray trotted out to project their density for volume.

[idea weenie]

I think this happens not only because there aren't any cannon people movers, but also because DS designs tend to be on the small end of the scale (A Leopard can move all of 900 people with it's bays converted to quarters). The fact that SL tech doesn't increase the number of people you can cram into a given space likely doesn't help, and is also somewhat weird then you think about it.

How does that work?   A Leopard is 1900 tons, and the smallest Quarters is 5 tons.  Stripping out all 4 Mech bays and both ASF Bays means you have 900 tons available, meaning you can carry 180 people.  But even then I don't see any mention of cargo space, and you would use .9 tons of Supply every day to keep people alive.


For using bays:
5 tons for an Infantry Bay, providing transport capacity of 30 people, or 6 people per ton.  I recommend 40 days of Food/oxygen per person, so that is ~2 tons per person.  Add another quarter ton for their luggage.  So that is ~2.42 tons per person, rounding up to 2.5 to make the math easy and even allow for dedicated crew members (i.e. stewards).  I wonder if there is a bilge/recycling setup on that Dropship with a few Spare Steerage Quarters whose only job is to recycle the wastes slowly but steadily.  The Dropship's own internal supplies would get replenished this way, and any downtime while in port will have the Dropship processing wastes this way to clean out its tanks, and offloading to the local sewage system if practical.

(Leopard would be able to carry 360 people like this)

You might even have variants of Bays similar to modern air liners or cruise ships.  The basic people get 1/6 of a ton, business might get 1/3 of a ton, and the nobility might get a full ton (and charged appropriately).  These reflect greater comfort/amenities/extra crew assigned to these people.


For using Quarters:
Off-hand, you budget 5.5 tons per person you want to transport, using RAW.  The 5 tons is for the Steerage Quarters, and the quarter ton is for the 50 days of food/oxygen to keep them alive.  The remaining .25 tons is for their cargo (luggage, and other stuff they need shipped).  If the passengers need less cargo for their luggage, you can use the freed up cargo space for other paying freight.

(Leopard would be able to carry 163 people like this)

(At 108 days, the bays mass 1/6 of a ton and need 5.4 tons of Food/Oxygen.  Quarters mass 5 tons and need .54 tons of Food/Oxygen.  This is where Quarters finally are better than Bays.)