Clan Streak LRMs ?

[Col Toda]

Why do I not see this often in Aerospace units ?
Same for IS Light Gauss Rifles an small pulse lasers ?
To a lesser extent Thunderbolts .

[Jellico]

A waste of tonnage for the most part.

ECM works differently in aero so generally Artemis IV and V gives better bang for the buck.

The nice feature of LGRs in aero is extreme range. Extreme range is +6 To hit so basically useless. So there are better 12 ton ballistic options. I think I only ever used it on a FWL DropShip as a flavor item because it shouldn't be in combat.

Small Pulse lasers have very short range and minimal damage. E.g. a MPL has the same range but does 6 and weighs 2. A SPL does 3 and weighs 1, but takes up 2 weapon slots.
There is a use for it as a one shot per turn anti missile system, but the pulse part doesn't work there so Small Lasers and Machine Guns are better and AMS is multi shot and king.

[Hellraiser]

And I think the various PPC's match T-Bolts in Range/Damage w/o needing ammo.

[Col Toda]

Jellico hit on some points .  The small pulse point was made . The light Gauss Rifle was not if he only seen it in action in one example . As for Streak and Bang for the buck I would think any weapon that only fires when it hits would allow very minimal ammo tonnage. So if the LRM missed 1/3 of the time I think it would be about even in bang for the C Bill .

[Jellico]

I think that you misunderstood me. I have installed and got published Light Gauss Rifles on one DropShip, the Seleucus, and on checking one small craft the Caerleon. This was done as a flavor weapon because normally there are better options. This is based on previous combat experience with, and analysis of Light Gauss Rifles in a aerospace context.

[Col Toda]

Ok you now made your point about the Light Gauss Rifle as a lack luster less than great option .

But  Better Bang for the Buck for Artemis IV and V  VS Streak ?  That is a little harder Sell as Streak Ammo  is only expended if it hits . So if LRM miss half the time then and Artemis Ammo Cost 4X+ standard ammo costs then then the margin of bang for buck is lower . Even if it is still more expensive the half the tonnage needed for ammunition may still make it a better choice for Aerospace as the LRM + Artemis is carrying tonnage for ammo that misses .  LRM 20 Plus Artemis is what 16 point of damage and  as Streak is 20 before AMS ? The extra Weapon Weight has to be truly much greater if you only have to carry less ammo for the same number of hits . 

If it was a truly clear and easy question to answer by the numbers particularly when some drop ships have huge LRM ammo in the magazine I would not have put the question up in the first place . My problem is I have played so little Aerospace I do not know a realistic miss ratio in combat an therefore cannot come up with a solution myself . Hence this post . 

Has Anyone used Streak LRM in Aerospace ? How did it perform ? Has anyone done a Cost VS Efficiency analysis .  Does it depend on how tight the allotted ammo tonnage is ? ie Does not make sense for War Ships ; may make sense for Drop Ships ; Makes Sense on Small Craft and Aerospace Fighters ?  .  I can see it would not make sense on a War Ship or Jump Ship just because of Scale but anything lighter not so much clear ?  Is their a  breakpoint or No Point  ? Or is it  just a  Mass issue  ?   Because of Aerospace Thresholds for Critical hits I was always shocked never having see the Streak LRM 10 ; 15 ; or 20 on any Aerospace Canon asset ?

[Jellico]

Well the answer is yes?

There has been playtesting and analysis. There are a couple of Streak LRM fighters around.

The easiest answer is about the thresholds. LRMs do a threshold of 5, even if the total hit in one location is 20.

The complexity comes in as there are 4 types of LRM and 4 variants. Given that the differences between them aren't linear it is hard to have a general rule because there are several exceptions. EG SLRM5s are uniquely lighter than LRM5Vs.

As a rule Streak LRMs are heavy for the damage that they do compared to other LRMs. There is no indirect fire and EMC works differently so Artemis gets buffed.

Ammo savings are correct. From memory your cut off of about 33% accuracy is right. Mathematically that gets murky really quickly because it is so situational.

[SCC]

ASF don't have ammo minimums like DS, correct? 'Cause if that rule does apply ammo savings are pointless.

[Jellico]

TW level ammo doesn't even track ammo. But yes, you can have less than 10 rounds of ammo on an ASF.


Okay. I have got to my notes. I am attaching an excel sheet.


The big variables are the assumptions about heat and ammo. The more you assume that a Streak LRM won't fire, thus saving heat and ammo tons the more damage per ton they do. In this circumstance they are consistently better except at near 100% accuracy.

On the other hand, if you assume that the heat is being absorbed by the free engine heat sinks the Streaks are below the Artemis options except for the case of LRM5s. Then the bare LRM5 is the best option.


So. In an Aerospace environment it all depends upon the availability of free heat sinks. If you are paying for heat sinks Streak LRMs are worth while. If you are not paying for heatsinks there are better options. So yes, we could probably use more Streak LRMs. Especially on larger platforms. So there is probably some bias involved at the design level. OTOH modeling the effects of eg 20 free heatsinks in a 30 heat sink budget gets really messy.



And a little follow up. Don't forget the psychological effect of an accuracy bonus. Often you can achieve more damage with a less accurate but more damaging weapon. OTOH being able to hit something, anything, is incredibly satisfying. It gives the Artemis V a little bonus over the Streak LRMs.

[Hellraiser]

I know the OP asked about ASF, but I really like these more on mechs or even tanks.

Something about the ability to force a PSR in a single role from 21 hexes w/ a Streak-20 just makes me happy.

I feel like a good home for a Streak-20 would be in the turret of a fast medium hovertank.

Harass from 21 hexes every turn & never worry about wasting ammo.

That seems like a fun option that would work well.

[Jellico]

I would be very tempted to go straight LRMs on a tank.

See above about how free heat sinks punishes Streak LRMs. For the tonnage of a Streak LRM20 with 6 rounds you can get 2 LRM15s with 32 rounds. With spare tons in the turret ring for some back up lasers.

Personally I like Streak LRMs on Mechs. Specifically troopers.

[Hellraiser]

Oh, I know standard LRMs throw more weight, but then they all have to connect.

I like the idea of forcing that PSR on a single to hit roll.

No Multiple Hit Rolls & Multiple Cluster Rolls.

Just a guaranteed PSR every time.

And any SHS a tank might have should be used for a pair of Medium Lasers anyway as you said.

Even a mech with 10 DHS on it should be using up those with energy weapons initially, then add on the Streak-20.

[Col Toda]

Thank you all for the input .

  The Streak LRM supplementing high heat weapons that take up most of the free heat sinks sounds very good.

 I was planning on designing something with Laser AMS and ER large pulse lasers with Streak 20s as a package on a military drop ship . Many Drop ships has the free Heat sinks to fire 2 or 3 firing arcs before heat is an issue :  Streak use can up gun those arcs or allow more arcs to come into play particularly in long range engagents in muliple arcs .

Streak LRMs is available well before Artemis V and far more likely aquireable for a mix tech inner sphere unit than an Artemis V fire control and ammo .

I do not agree with tanks using. Streak LRM 20s . A combat vehicle Ammo Crit blows up all ammo on the unit so if it 1 ton ok as it may be less than 1 ton when it blows up if it is more it is wasteful . A tank with CASE the launcher is Salvageable .  A standard LRM can have mission specific ammo particularly Mine Clearing ammo to create quick holes in minefields for you other units to exploit .  Mechs are different as they can have CASE II or CASE in muliple sections .

[RifleMech]

TW level ammo doesn't even track ammo. But yes, you can have less than 10 rounds of ammo on an ASF.


Okay. I have got to my notes. I am attaching an excel sheet.


The big variables are the assumptions about heat and ammo. The more you assume that a Streak LRM won't fire, thus saving heat and ammo tons the more damage per ton they do. In this circumstance they are consistently better except at near 100% accuracy.

On the other hand, if you assume that the heat is being absorbed by the free engine heat sinks the Streaks are below the Artemis options except for the case of LRM5s. Then the bare LRM5 is the best option.


So. In an Aerospace environment it all depends upon the availability of free heat sinks. If you are paying for heat sinks Streak LRMs are worth while. If you are not paying for heatsinks there are better options. So yes, we could probably use more Streak LRMs. Especially on larger platforms. So there is probably some bias involved at the design level. OTOH modeling the effects of eg 20 free heatsinks in a 30 heat sink budget gets really messy.



And a little follow up. Don't forget the psychological effect of an accuracy bonus. Often you can achieve more damage with a less accurate but more damaging weapon. OTOH being able to hit something, anything, is incredibly satisfying. It gives the Artemis V a little bonus over the Streak LRMs.

 :o
Since when is ammo not tracked in TW?  ???

As for the heat thing, what?    ???  I thought Streaks only generated heat when they fired. No fire. No heat. How are they punished? As far as I can tell that's a bonus, especially for a unit with an already taxed cooling system.


Personally I think it'd depend on the mission. If I'm on a long range mission with little or no resupply I'd want some Streaks to make every shot count.

That would obviously depend on what would fit in the units. I wouldn't replace every launcher with a streak though. Sometimes you might want to miss.

[Jellico]

Thinking of capital scale ammo tracking.

As for the heat. They benefit a craft with an already taxed coolant system. That was my point. Until you clear 20 points of heat there is no benefit to streaks beyond the guarantee 20 points of damage.

[RifleMech]

However their use allows you to use weapons with greater heat or more weapons.

[Jellico]

Using a Streak 20 as an example those extra 5 tons can buy 3 Double Heat Sinks an extra ton of ammo and an Artemis V.

Practically the same damage and you won't suffer the heat spikes a Streak lock will generate.

You need to create a situation where the to-hit mods are high (Streak not firing often) and the heat sinks are taxed for the Streak system to come into its own.