Author Topic: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born  (Read 57009 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #120 on: 20 May 2019, 00:19:18 »
If they were running the primary config, they were probably starting to run out of ammo for at least one or two of their weapons, as well.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #121 on: 20 May 2019, 07:43:36 »
I always figured that the thing is crazy tough... if your baseline for comparison is the Hellbringer.

Now, now. Hellbringers are considerably tougher than one might think. For one, they usually have enormous heat problems, so every turn that a section gets blown off, it just activates a new weapon or two that it couldn't use before! See? It's unpredictable and wily!  ;D
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Moonsword

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #122 on: 21 May 2019, 08:21:35 »
Now, now. Hellbringers are considerably tougher than one might think. For one, they usually have enormous heat problems, so every turn that a section gets blown off, it just activates a new weapon or two that it couldn't use before! See? It's unpredictable and wily!  ;D

That makes it sound like some sort of "destructible" action figure with new features as you take it apart.  That's one way to describe it, I suppose, although I imagine the MechWarriors driving them might not appreciate being in the latest Diamond Shark toy promotion.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #123 on: 21 May 2019, 10:43:23 »
'Jade Falcon Hellbringers- easiest source of parts for Linebackers and Cauldron-Born!'  -Failed 3060s advertising slogan for Clan Diamond Shark mech sales to Falcons.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #124 on: 22 May 2019, 04:52:09 »
If I were in charge of designing, say, a video game and we were trying to capture the spirit of the designs rather than the specifics of the rules, the Hellbringer would be the design where a bunch of clever engineers said
"look, 'mech survivability in combat is a holistic science.  Think of the survivability onion; you try to avoid detection, if you can't avoid detection, you try to avoid acquisition, if that doesn't work, you try to avoid getting hit, if that doesn't work you try to avoid the hits from penetrating into important systems, and if that doesn't work, you try to avoid the loss of critical systems causing destruction of the unit.  There's more to survivability than just armor thickness.  This Hellbringer is designed around integrated stealth, ECM, active protection and smart redundancy.  It's much more mass-efficient, and ultimately more effective than just blindly slapping on more armor!"

and whoever was in charge of procurement bit this, hook line and sinker.  Then, after Operation REVIVAL, a new request came up the chain to the design teams:

"Survivability onion theory is A PACK OF STUPID LIES.  BLINDLY SLAP MORE ARMOR ON MY MECH RIGHT NOW YOU BOUNDING STRAVAGS!"

The Hellbringer would be the fancy gadget design that mates advanced technology and dubious assumptions as though the very ghost of Robert McNamara were consulted for the project, while the Ebon Jaguar would be the return-to-basics design.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #125 on: 22 May 2019, 08:02:46 »
For my money, cavalry BattleMechs like the Hellbringer are closer to Jackie Fisher's battlecruiser ideal than what you're talking about.  They don't omit armor entirely but they favor heavier weapons and speed to its detriment, relying on positioning to generate sufficient misses for survivability and outmaneuver the real heavyweights.  'Mechs like the Falconer and the Timber Wolf epitomize this theory compared to 4/6 SFE heavies, relying on the XLFE and accepting it tradeoffs in cost and vulnerability to range far and wide over the battlefield with powerful weapons capable of tearing apart lighter 'Mechs or confronting even their betters with careful and audacious handling.

Taking that analogy further, the Hellbringer is the Courageous or Furious of that particular family tree.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #126 on: 22 May 2019, 09:51:47 »
Then you run into the problem of the Hellbringer having two ERPPCs- to take those long range positioning shots- and 14 DHS, oops.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #127 on: 22 May 2019, 09:54:50 »
For my money, cavalry BattleMechs like the Hellbringer are closer to Jackie Fisher's battlecruiser ideal than what you're talking about.  They don't omit armor entirely but they favor heavier weapons and speed to its detriment, relying on positioning to generate sufficient misses for survivability and outmaneuver the real heavyweights.  'Mechs like the Falconer and the Timber Wolf epitomize this theory compared to 4/6 SFE heavies, relying on the XLFE and accepting it tradeoffs in cost and vulnerability to range far and wide over the battlefield with powerful weapons capable of tearing apart lighter 'Mechs or confronting even their betters with careful and audacious handling.

Taking that analogy further, the Hellbringer is the Courageous or Furious of that particular family tree.

Hang on, I'm loading SSW to see if I can convert a Hellbringer into a proper aircraft carrier.  ;D

Nah, I actually agree with you, for the most part. The trick is, a battlecruiser was designed to be able to outrun what it couldn't outfight, and vice versa. A Hellbringer... really can't claim that. it's quick, for sure, and it has enough guns to level a city block in a couple of short minutes, but there's plenty of Mechs- even in its own TRO- that pace it (or even outrun it) and simply flat-out are better-armed. Hell, two pages earlier in the book is the Stormcrow- granted, not many machines since have outmatched that one, comparisons to one of the best Omnis in existence aren't really fair, but there it is- the Hellbringer/battlecruiser concept dies before it really is even off the ground. (That most configurations then make the mistakes of having too few heat sinks or reliance on close-combat brawling weapons- on a Mech that doesn't have the armor to brawl- is just criminal.)
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #128 on: 22 May 2019, 10:44:22 »
As a member of a Clan that prefers rational speed and not a Hellion speed freak, I really like the arrival of the supercharger in later eras.  I am not sure that each chassis has a config with a SC, but a cERLL, UAC/2&5, ATM, LB-5X Hellbringer with a SC would be more useful than the LB-20X Hellbringer . . .
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #129 on: 22 May 2019, 18:17:07 »
For my money, cavalry BattleMechs like the Hellbringer are closer to Jackie Fisher's battlecruiser ideal than what you're talking about.  They don't omit armor entirely but they favor heavier weapons and speed to its detriment, relying on positioning to generate sufficient misses for survivability and outmaneuver the real heavyweights.  'Mechs like the Falconer and the Timber Wolf epitomize this theory compared to 4/6 SFE heavies, relying on the XLFE and accepting it tradeoffs in cost and vulnerability to range far and wide over the battlefield with powerful weapons capable of tearing apart lighter 'Mechs or confronting even their betters with careful and audacious handling.

Taking that analogy further, the Hellbringer is the Courageous or Furious of that particular family tree.


With the gameplay rules as written, yes, the Hellbringer doesn't have any obvious systems to avoid dying, and it seems a bit like a battlecruiser, or maybe an M18 Hellcat or something along those lines.

Where that particular analogy breaks down is the construction rules.  Heavy tanks and main battle tanks are on the order of 40%-60% armor by mass, and battleships are about 30%-40%.  Without resorting to hardened armor, battlemechs max out at 20% armor by mass.  Skimping on armor on an armored fighting vehicle or warship is an attractive (although historically dubious) gamble.  There's a lot of weight that can be eliminated or put into other things if a trade-off in survivability is accepted.  With the CBT mech construction rules, if the mech doesn't have max armor it's because the designers have a hole in their heads.  Or perhaps that they should have a hole in their heads.  Stripping armor is unlikely to free up enough room to increase the speed by another bracket.  It might free up enough to shoehorn in one more big gun, but really, most of the time it's just used to squeeze in some additional secondary armament.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #130 on: 22 May 2019, 20:23:52 »
... I was about to post how bipolar this forum is going from bashing optimized machines to bashing under optimize machine but I then realized this has nothing to do with the original topic.
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Ghost_msl

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #131 on: 23 May 2019, 07:08:21 »
I still think flipping the names for the Kingfisher and Cauldron Born makes more sense.
The Kingfisher is a zombie build and the Cauldron Born has the bird legs.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #132 on: 23 May 2019, 08:41:49 »
Then you run into the problem of the Hellbringer having two ERPPCs- to take those long range positioning shots- and 14 DHS, oops.

So? You're not required to fire both peepers every turn, even a Jaguar would allow to only unleash one headcapper every third turn or so.

Besides, the Great Father and his scientist caste gave you sweat pores for a reason. Use them.

Hang on, I'm loading SSW to see if I can convert a Hellbringer into a proper aircraft carrier.  ;D

Drone Command Console, and a cargo bay for one or two of those tiny airships from HB: Kurita. Give the mech hands so you can carry one more and call it a deck park. :)
« Last Edit: 23 May 2019, 08:44:27 by Weirdo »
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #133 on: 23 May 2019, 12:12:25 »
Two ER PPCs and 14 DHS is +4 at a run.  What's wrong with that? ???  No penalties after one turn of shooting is "ideal" as far as I'm concerned.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #134 on: 23 May 2019, 12:26:34 »
It's better than the +6 heat the Cauldron-Born B would be at after the same maneuver (to try and get this thread back on topic).
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #135 on: 23 May 2019, 12:47:07 »
The Cauldron Born has the armor to be slower the next turn while the Hellbringer does not have it to consistently do that, while I am in the bracket school for heat management I do think you should be able to fire all your long range and still be able to walk for a two or three turns without slowing.  So 2-2-1 patterns appeal to me, while for instance on the B firing both ERPPCs and slowing is a problem . . . though having armor to absorb the hits having slowed and likely the target being into twin LPL range kind of mitigates it.  I would prefer it had ERMLs than MPLs to give it a better heat profile for those longest range weapons- or better, a ERLL instead of one of the ERPPCs for the same DHS improvement.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #136 on: 23 May 2019, 13:17:07 »
I still think flipping the names for the Kingfisher and Cauldron Born makes more sense.
The Kingfisher is a zombie build and the Cauldron Born has the bird legs.

The Ebon Jag and Kingfisher where introduced in two different books (Luthien (93) and the Black Thorns (94) respectfully) so saying there was a name mix up is a stretch. If we are going to nitpick about names, don't think the name Kingfisher works for ether mech.

Simply calling it the Jaguar works. I mean, how many call the Grendel the Mongrel? 
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #137 on: 23 May 2019, 13:24:02 »
Calling it the Ebon Jaguar works, I guess, but now we've got the completely unrelated Jaguar quad mech.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #138 on: 23 May 2019, 13:58:53 »
Calling it the Ebon Jaguar works, I guess, but now we've got the completely unrelated Jaguar quad mech.

Oh yeah, keep forgetting about that one.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #139 on: 23 May 2019, 13:59:36 »
I like making an ER PPC boat out of the Cauldron Born.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #140 on: 23 May 2019, 14:07:11 »
Make it a lighter & faster MAD IIC?  Not much secondary weapons or even JJ . . . but 3 ERPPCs, 2ERML and everything else into DHS- not sure the crits allow it.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #141 on: 23 May 2019, 14:09:55 »
Oh yeah, keep forgetting about that one.

It's a very odd duck, that's for sure.

It's also tiny- the mini is able to stand on top of a XNT-60 Xanthos mini.  Hmm, now I just need some sort of Battle Armor to stack on top of it to make a Battletech version of the Musicians of Brenen.

Anyway, back to the Cauldron-Born I really, really can't understand what the though process behind the B variant was.  Why give it four long-range energy weapons when it doesn't even have the heat dissipation to use two of them?
« Last Edit: 23 May 2019, 14:15:52 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #142 on: 23 May 2019, 14:20:36 »
Because the tech was ordered to mount energy weapons. He was told nothing about mounting extra heat sinks.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #143 on: 24 May 2019, 00:39:46 »
I actually like the B a lot.  Sure, it could be improved by dropping... almost anything to allow it to properly utilize the primary armament more liberally.  But consider:

-The armament consists of CLPLs and CERPPCs, two of the most broken weapons in the game.  The fact that it utilize the primary armament on cooldown doesn't really hurt it that much because the weapons it has are brutal enough as is.  It can use the LPLs every turn while only suffering movement heat, which is 2 10 point chunks of damage to an effective medium range of 20 hexes, and it moves 5/8.

-The armament is mostly in the arms, so it's a good battle armor carrier.

-It has BAP, so it can even sorta work as a BA support/BA hunter.  LPLs and MPLs are pretty hard on BA.

-If you do decide to do something stupid by shooting more than two guns at once, there's no ammo onboard to explode.

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #144 on: 24 May 2019, 07:47:10 »
It's also handy in case you have a habit of getting a limb blown off by random chance early in a battle (HI THERE, NEIGHBORINOS!)- yeah, you lost a big chunk of firepower, but since you couldn't really use more than half of it at a time anyway you're not really all that hindered now- you still have a pair of nasty long-range energy weapons to throw at your enemy even though your right arm is on the ground smoldering. Kind of like the Blood Kite- shoot pieces off, and it just shrugs and switches to another weapon instead. (Which doesn't mean it's still not a little wasteful, mind you, but it's AN advantage, if not an ideal one. We're making lemonade here.)
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #145 on: 24 May 2019, 08:58:34 »
While clearly not the best out there for the job, the B could also pull semi-decent duty as a swamp hunter. When wading the light probe can detect units above and below the water, the pulse lasers are decent at killing infantry hiding in the undergrowth, and if you go hull down, you can put a LOT of hurt into a submerged target while not needing as many heat sinks.

Actually, if you combine all that with the light TAG for quickly smashing anything that proves itself dishonorable...I really think the Cauldron-Born B is meant to win a second Wolcott. It's not perfect for the role, but it actually comes kinda close, while still adhering to Jaguar sensibilities.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #146 on: 24 May 2019, 09:16:56 »
It's also handy in case you have a habit of getting a limb blown off by random chance early in a battle (HI THERE, NEIGHBORINOS!)- yeah, you lost a big chunk of firepower, but since you couldn't really use more than half of it at a time anyway you're not really all that hindered now- you still have a pair of nasty long-range energy weapons to throw at your enemy even though your right arm is on the ground smoldering. Kind of like the Blood Kite- shoot pieces off, and it just shrugs and switches to another weapon instead. (Which doesn't mean it's still not a little wasteful, mind you, but it's AN advantage, if not an ideal one. We're making lemonade here.)

Not so different from a Hellbringer after all.  :D

But seriously, don't underestimate an enemy that doesn't slow down as damage accumulates.  Most Mechs lose firepower as they're dismembered.  Configs like the B or the Hellbringer Prime have the gas pedal to the floor from the word go until the mech is gone.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #147 on: 24 May 2019, 10:07:55 »
Not so different from a Hellbringer after all.  :D

But seriously, don't underestimate an enemy that doesn't slow down as damage accumulates.  Most Mechs lose firepower as they're dismembered.  Configs like the B or the Hellbringer Prime have the gas pedal to the floor from the word go until the mech is gone.

Absolutely. If you'll pardon my jumping games for a moment, it's what used to be so scary about Wolf and Bear units in MW:DA's later years. Wolves, as they took damage, would often gain new and surprising abilities, simulating (I always felt) the Mech taking damage and having to switch to another tactic to replace damaged equipment. The Bears... the more damage a Bear unit took, the angrier and angrier it would get, the stats getting scarier and scarier with each hit until it died. You either killed a Bear with overwhelming force all at once, or risked it turning into an arctic-camo nightmare.

The Cauldron Born B, the Blood Kite, really one can even point at the old Catapult, all have that same kind of dynamic- as they lose limbs or equipment (or just run out of ammo for some), they're forced to switch from one role to another- and become almost entirely different units as a result. It's not always a good thing- a little smarter thinking in the Cauldron Born B's case could make it able to use more of what it has rather than force redundancy in some of its gear- but it can make for some really dynamic and interesting units, as opposed to effective but monotone units like the Archer or Hellstar.
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Colt Ward

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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #148 on: 24 May 2019, 10:13:05 »
We need a new 3100s Sea Fox config . . . Watchdog CEWS, Supercharger, TAG, iNARC, Radical Heat Sink System . . . can Blue Shield be pod mounted? maybe some ER Large Pulse in the arms, iHMLs in the torso w/CASE II . . .

Yeah, I remember reading some discussions of the Steel Wolves early on where it was discussed that you wanted to hit for example Inova Wolf's Mad Cat Mk II, you wanted to put X damage on it to push it past the 'tune up' two, three or four klicks on where it got better before it started sliding back down.
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Re: (Another) Mech of the Week - The Cauldron Born
« Reply #149 on: 27 May 2019, 20:24:55 »
pretty sure blue shield needs to be on the base chassis and can't be podded

 

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