Why didn't Clan tech spread in the Combine more quickly?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  I've wondered why the retcon to have Clans stop producing them since they're better than the Standard versions?

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

Scientist: We have finished the first prototype of the Hyperblazooka and it is mounted on your Warhawk.
Warrior: What, that ugly thing? I will not have my foes ridiculing me due to a silly looking weapon.
Scientist: But...but...It is the most powerful weapon ever devised, it fires a stream of plasma-bonded antimatter. This is also just a prototype.
Warrior: I do not care, it looks like a huge flower, and a purple one, at that -Unacceptable!
Scientist: But...
Warrior: Dispose of it, and go work on something that will make my Omni look really cool, because that is most important.

[Alexander Knight]

Well, it's also that the Warriors insisted on researching what was most important to them.  The genetic recombination techniques for better sibkos.

[grimlock1]

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

Scientist: We have finished the first prototype of the Hyperblazooka and it is mounted on your Warhawk.
Warrior: What, that ugly thing? I will not have my foes ridiculing me due to a silly looking weapon.
Scientist: But...but...It is the most powerful weapon ever devised, it fires a stream of plasma-bonded antimatter. This is also just a prototype.
Warrior: I do not care, it looks like a huge flower, and a purple one, at that -Unacceptable!
Scientist: But...
Warrior: Dispose of it, and go work on something that will make my Omni look really cool, because that is most important.

And we wonder why the Society was planning a coup....

I've wondered why the retcon to have Clans stop producing them since they're better than the Standard versions?

But they are inferior to Clan-spec gear.  The Clans use standard Intro and Star League gear in solahama units and second line, because they have lots of stuff laying around in Brian Caches. As to why phase out the Improved or Prototype stuff?  The Clans have never been fluffed as having a massive industrial base and a factory is a big investment.  There is a logic to shutting down the Enhanced ER PPC line, retooling and starting to crank out Clan spec ER PPCs, rather than build a new factory and maintaining both production lines. Not saying it's the right call but there is some planning involved.

[Elmoth]

The "looking good" did not prevent the fielding of the Dasher, so I am unsure about that reasoning....

[truetanker]

Hey it goes " Beep- Beep " and you can't get out of second gear cause you passed that rambler...

TT

[truetanker]

Double post...

TT

[RifleMech]

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

True and I would think Warriors would welcome a cheap easy upgrade that would make older units more effective.

But they are inferior to Clan-spec gear.  The Clans use standard Intro and Star League gear in solahama units and second line, because they have lots of stuff laying around in Brian Caches. As to why phase out the Improved or Prototype stuff?  The Clans have never been fluffed as having a massive industrial base and a factory is a big investment.  There is a logic to shutting down the Enhanced ER PPC line, retooling and starting to crank out Clan spec ER PPCs, rather than build a new factory and maintaining both production lines. Not saying it's the right call but there is some planning involved.

I don't have an issue with phasing out the prototypes. That's bound to happen. That it happens so quickly seems a bit odd to me.

As for the Improved Weapons, the Improved Missile Systems I can see disappearing quickly. The Improved Gauss Rifle too. Clan versions beat them all the time. The other Improved weapons I can see staying around. Like I said above, they're a great way to upgrade older units. Replacing Standard with Improved frees up tonnage to be used on other things. They can also use alternative munitions which the LBX and Ultras can't. That may not be so great compared to Cluster Rounds but the extra tonnage can be used to double the unit's endurance. I think that's a good thing. 

Plus it's a missed opportunity. Imagine full Clan Spec Autocannons. Not Improved SLDF models but full Clan Tech. The Protomech ACs give us a look at what could have been.  They'd be amazing.

[glitterboy2098]

My own headcanon is that the Inner Sphere had just spent a mega-buttload of money to upgrade their production facilities, and upgrading to Clan tech would have required an even greater expenditure.  Sometimes you just have to be content with what you've got.

Imagine you're Duke von Sauerkraut, ruler of 5 planets and 2 Battlemech factories.  The year is 3055.  The Clan Invasion has ended, and you've mortgaged yourself to the hilt to refit your old Battlemaster and Shadow Hawk factories so they're now producing Falconers and Rakshasas.  It might take 30 years before you're back to profitability, but you've got some locked-in government contracts so it should be okay.  It isn't just your factories that have been upgraded -- your cousin Duke von Schnitzengruben just built an orbital endo-steel facility from scratch.  That thing won't be paid off for a century, but again he's got some guaranteed contracts that'll keep it producing for at least that long.

Are any of these guys going to want to rebuild everything again for the latest shiny technology?  I mean Inner Sphere endo-steel is just as good as Clan tech as long as you aren't trying to cram an insane equipment load into a mech.  An IS Gauss Rifle is just as good as the Clan version, just heavier.  It's probably a lot cheaper to just buy more Battlemechs than it is to refit all these factories again.  Yeah, Clantech is awesome, and any mechwarrior will tell you that.  But to the beancounters, it's hard to justify completely rebuilding your infrastructure after you just did it.

and it gets worse when you consider that for most of the inner sphere, Comstar was not just the phone company, it was the savings and loan bank as well. the reliable loans needed to upgrade your factories wouldn't be available from comstar until after the schism..  so you'd have to use the central bank of your successor state, which is going to be not only less secure than a comstar one but also surrounded with a lot more fine print putting the successor state in control of the result.

after the schism, comstar just isn't as reliable as a bank anymore, so even though the loans would not be avaialble, fewer people would be likely to take them. especially after the WoB take over comstar's facilities and operations in parts of the IS, making it uncertain whether your loan would remain in comstar hands.

with with major political changes every decade, this economic uncertainty would remain a constant.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The "looking good" did not prevent the fielding of the Dasher, so I am unsure about that reasoning....

  Somebody approved of making Protomechs look like D&D figs...The Dasher's appearance might have been to shame Light pilots...

[massey]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.  The Dasher looks kickass.

[glitterboy2098]

clearly the Dasher was part of a clever stratagem meant to deceiver the enemy regarding the size of the mech. principle as seen here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVIvmOPHOQ

[Jellico]

To directly answer why the Combine didn't get Clantech when the Nova Cats joined up, its because the Cats didn't want to hand it over. They had switched sides with the idea that they would be a fully independent power, but the Combine put them in the position of samurai vassals. Their superior equipment was one of the only bargaining chips that they had, and they were loathe to give it up. So they played the game of "we need to keep our production to replace our losses" balanced against "we don't have enough military strength to do it all on our own". The idea of being able to get the Combine to fork over the resources to kick start their industry like Arc Royal did, but the Combine weren't nearly so generous/easy to con.

From the Combine perspective they were trying to gain Clan technology, but couldn't risk letting the Nova Cats become the primary military force inside their borders. From the Nova Cat's perspective they had to rebuild their Touman enough to maintain their status, but not offend the Combine enough that they were cut off or attacked. So instead of getting a massive shot in the arm from hosting a Clan the Combine got stuck herding Cats.

The new TRO has something to say on that.

[Trailblazer]

  Somebody approved of making Protomechs look like D&D figs

Hahahaha well said  :thumbsup:  God I hate the TRO 3060 art

[codigo]

I disagree. If you handed took the entire technical data package for Intel's latest chip, hopped in a time machine and gave it to AMD of 20 years ago, they would be a couple years before they could get it into production.  It's not a matter of making a Clan spec medium laser.  It's a matter of making the tools to make the tools to make that Clan spec laser.   Phalen described the workshops on the Dire Wolf as being far superior to anything he encountered in the Sphere.
Not only is it a matter of the tools to make the tools, working with new materials means a learning curve.    Clan Endo and FF are more compact, suggesting greater density and strength.  How do you drill a hole in that stuff now?  There are a thousand little lessons like this that only come with experience, as you tool up for full rate production.

I disagree with your disagreement. Operation BULLDOG saw to the annihilation of clan Smoke Jaguar. With that, the Star League had access to the whole of Huntress, the jaguar's homeworld.

The SLDF had access to Huntress orbital factories and all the personnel used to manufacture clan technologies. It is one thing to reverse engineer something without knowing what processes were used to create it. It is another to have access to the factories, the scientists and technicians needed to do it.

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

Nah. Having the IS tech lagging behind the clans, even 100 years after Operation Bulldog its an editorial decision. For me, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

  Agreed, it worked for the Allies after WW2...

[RifleMech]

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

I think it would depend in part on how well they were treated. Then again the scientists may think they're above the IS and intentionally drag their feet. After all the warriors didn't listen to them and look what happened. The IS barbarians defeated them. Why should they willingly work with their inferiors to bring them up to their level?

[grimlock1]

I disagree with your disagreement. Operation BULLDOG saw to the annihilation of clan Smoke Jaguar. With that, the Star League had access to the whole of Huntress, the jaguar's homeworld.

The SLDF had access to Huntress orbital factories and all the personnel used to manufacture clan technologies. It is one thing to reverse engineer something without knowing what processes were used to create it. It is another to have access to the factories, the scientists and technicians needed to do it.

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

Nah. Having the IS tech lagging behind the clans, even 100 years after Operation Bulldog its an editorial decision. For me, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

You raise some excellent points.  From the context of 3150, yeah, there's no really good reason to have Clan tech be uncommon in the front line units of the major powers.  It should be practically the norm. Second line units should see a smattering of Clan tech. After all, is it really worth replacing the IS endo steel in a 300 year old Starslayer that's on some backwater?  Just upgrade the large lasers, and give it 2 more heat sinks. I think you will still see IS-grade stuff being sold to minor powers and small mercs.  More modern equivalents of the Sentry and Watchman. There's always someone out there on a budget.

I think this will happen because it's not just about the cost of the mechs and weapons.  The cost of upgrading your factory, while invisible to us players, can be considerable. If your profit margins are slim enough, you might not be able to afford shutting down your ER Medium Laser factory to retool it for producing Clan ER Medium Lasers. Given the size the Inner Sphere, there will be a non-trivial number of manufacturers who, for one reason or another, stick with what they've been building.

This wasn't as big an issue when the Clans transitioned from IS to "proto-Clan" to proper Clan tech.  Their industrial base was far smaller, and they had a more or less "command" economy. Factory managers don't need to worry about generating a profit for the board of directors or being able to pay their workers.

[dgorsman]

This wasn't as big an issue when the Clans transitioned from IS to "proto-Clan" to proper Clan tech.  Their industrial base was far smaller, and they had a more or less "command" economy. Factory managers don't need to worry about generating a profit for the board of directors or being able to pay their workers.

Or competing with other factories/purchasers for rare or difficult to process materials.  It's either available and defended through trials, or not available.  There's little to no "I can pay X amount more than the next guy without losing money".

[idea weenie]

  I think this will happen because it's not just about the cost of the mechs and weapons.  The cost of upgrading your factory, while invisible to us players, can be considerable. If your profit margins are slim enough, you might not be able to afford shutting down your ER Medium Laser factory to retool it for producing Clan ER Medium Lasers. Given the size the Inner Sphere, there will be a non-trivial number of manufacturers who, for one reason or another, stick with what they've been building. 

There should have been a few factories in each Successor State that were privately funded by the Successor Lord, and upgraded to produce Clan tech.  Not a lot, and the factories would have had to be quietly upgraded, but it would allow a slow replacement of components on that House's Battlemechs.

So IS and SL tech might be a bit more free among the mercenaries and militia defenders, but at the core of each House's strength are elite units with Clantech.

Figure each planet has a few IS grade weapons they can produce for their local militia, and strapped onto IndustrialMechs.  The local capitals are capable of equipping their Battlemechs with Star League technology.  The House's capital has a few factories to produce Clantech.

But all of those SL-capable factories also have spare parts nearby to upgrade them to Clantech capability, and those SL components are marked as to be sent to certain worlds that are producing IS tech.  Decision for when and where the upgrades should go are based on data from HPG messaging, but as soon as the HPG network shut down, everyone kicked off their own private wars.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

[grimlock1]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

Curse you and your Doylist reasoning! ;D

[idea weenie]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

This is the Combine, so wouldn't white be a color of death?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

This is the Combine, so wouldn't white be a color of death?

Sssshhhhh! That would go beyond the usual, factional window-dressing...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

True and I would think Warriors would welcome a cheap easy upgrade that would make older units more effective.

  If they were rational, perhaps, but you always have those who demand expensive, difficult to manufacture items, because they place little value on labor and materials, as the lower castes exist to serve the people in charge and nothing else gives them meaning.

[RifleMech]

  If they were rational, perhaps, but you always have those who demand expensive, difficult to manufacture items, because they place little value on labor and materials, as the lower castes exist to serve the people in charge and nothing else gives them meaning.

Very true. As such it should vary among the Clans as their demands vary.