Poll

So, a retcon happens: How significant should it be?

[Story] Minor. (Examples: Statistical data or imagery changes that tweak universe factoids but have little impact on story. Changes to population numbers, economic factors, planetary data, force sizes, the look of the Unseen, etc.)
166 (20.1%)
[Story] Modest. (Examples: A single event outcome changes that ripples through the story but doesn't change balance of power that much, such as Ian Davion not dying on Mallory's World or GDL surviving Hesperus II)
95 (11.5%)
[Story] Major. (Examples: A major event or series of events change entirely--or fail to occur--that results in a new balance of power, such as the Fourth War being aimed at Kurita instead of Liao, or Kurita winning the Davion War of Succession)
56 (6.8%)
[Story] Severe. (Examples: A fundamental change is made to the entire balance of the setting, such as the destruction of the SLDF before its Exodus preventing the creation of the Clans, or the deletion of any of the five Great Houses from canon.)
23 (2.8%)
[Story] Extreme. (Examples: The universe is rewritten from scratch; nothing is guaranteed and all previous canon is null and void.)
34 (4.1%)
[Story] NONE! (I DON'T CARE IF IT MAKES NO DAMNED SENSE! CHANGE A THING AND IT'S WAR, HERB! WAAAAAR!)
37 (4.5%)
[Game] Minor. (Examples: Minor rules changes and bug-fixes are made, such as a change to some modifiers, redistribution of units on RATs, change of the hex scale.)
134 (16.2%)
[Game] Modest. (Examples: A swath of rules tweaks are made that shifts game balance to a small degree or changes one aspect of design, such as a rewrite of large spacecraft construction, or a change in dice mechanics from D6 to D12.)
147 (17.8%)
[Game] Major. (Examples: Game play is overhauled on numerous fronts by a series of sweeping tech and rules changes, such as eliminating ProtoMechs/battle armor/WarShips entirely from the setting, eliminating hexes or hit locations from play.)
38 (4.6%)
[Game] Severe. (Examples: An entire core aspect of the game is rewritten or deleted, such as eliminating all non-'Mech units from play, replacing the core game with a Quick-Strike version of itself, eliminating construction/customization rules.)
11 (1.3%)
[Game] Extreme. (Examples: The game is rewritten from scratch; all rules and stats written from before this change are rendered wholly incompatible and anything goes--up to and including BattleMechs themselves.)
30 (3.6%)
[Game] NONE! (KEEP YOUR PAWS OFF THOSE GAME RULES, YOU DAMN, DIRTY APES!)
55 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 452

Author Topic: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?  (Read 38539 times)

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #60 on: 24 September 2012, 04:00:29 »
That's what Quickstrike is for.  You can run a Batallion-level game in a few hours there.
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Atlas3060

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #61 on: 24 September 2012, 06:38:19 »
And which is why I think Quickstrike should be seperate from Battletech proper.
That way the game can be a flexible, fast, and more pickup/play version compared to the original.
It is similar to the Dark Age game in terms of pace yet still keeps to the Battletech flavor of initiative plus no random boosters.  :)
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #62 on: 24 September 2012, 08:40:59 »
  I put minor because of the one thing that made me much more incensed--Natasha K's death.  On the lame scale of 1-10 this ranked 37.  Okay she knew it was her last stand and we knew it was her last stand.  It would not have hurt anything to have a star or 2 of "red-shirt" JF's put down before Joanna shows up.  And come on, jump jet to the face  :D  That's all I'm going to say about that.


yeah
I wanted to see Jo and Nasty literally cripple each others mechs then
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Diablo48

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #63 on: 25 September 2012, 00:48:15 »
That's what Quickstrike is for.  You can run a Batallion-level game in a few hours there.

Hm, this is making me wonder how long it would take to run a battalion vs. battalion game now.  I should probably set up a pair of MegaMek bots to duke it out some time and see how long it takes.  I think it could be interesting to see how the larger force sizes affect things.


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William J. Pennington

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #64 on: 25 September 2012, 04:52:08 »
I'm good up to severe/severe. not saying we have to go that far, but if TPTB determine they can make a better game, and preserve a good story, I'm willing.

Just because they retcon stuff, doesnt mean my books burst into flame.  I can enjoy my novels and sourcebooks forever; if the chance to change gives the chance for as good, or even better stories, I'm all for that too.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #65 on: 25 September 2012, 05:51:55 »
Hm, this is making me wonder how long it would take to run a battalion vs. battalion game now.  I should probably set up a pair of MegaMek bots to duke it out some time and see how long it takes.  I think it could be interesting to see how the larger force sizes affect things.

In full-on BattleTech?  I've done them over the course of a few nights.  A Regiment on Regiment game is a bit much though...
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Diablo48

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #66 on: 25 September 2012, 14:53:40 »
In full-on BattleTech?  I've done them over the course of a few nights.  A Regiment on Regiment game is a bit much though...

How long did that take?  Part of why I am curious is to see how large battles like that would affect ammunition consumption because I have noticed that I need more ammo for company-scale games than lance-scale or duels.


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faraday77

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #67 on: 25 September 2012, 16:35:59 »
I voted Modest in both categories, although I tend to Severe in specific cases. The following is pure stream of consciousness, I apologize in advance for the wall of text.

Rules
-Stop honoring the FASA tradition of publishing another 'patch' as a new edition or at least really trim the fat/streamline game and equipment rules for once. If you don't want to do this then publish QS in a separate book.
-Go D8 or D10 - we've only gotten 2D6 and base 4+ because a) other dice were hard to come by in the mid '80 and b) because FASA knew the bell curve thanks to their work on Traveller.
-Drop the tired 'no old weapon is ever obsolete' paradigm. There will always be someone using the older equipment simply because it's cheaper, easier to get/keep or just because they don't have anything better. And while you're at it, stop putting so much weight on trying to balance equipment by tonnage and crits - that's what BV is for.
- Light/Heavy Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, MRM, Primitive 'Mechs...all of them are perfect for the lower tech AoW and Succession War eras, so use them accordingly.
-Rework Autocannons to make them viable (drop LACs, fold LB-X and Ultras into a iAC series and give them access to all alternate ammunitions).

Story
Stuff like Natashas death, or finding the Homeworlds thanks due to a traitor instead of having the Explorer Corps vindicate their raison d'être, or disbanding the Second Star League for no real reason? Lame. I started to lose interest in the official timeline (and BT in general) around 3058, because a lot of the things happening felt incredibly forced and broke immersion for me.
Gone.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #68 on: 25 September 2012, 17:52:41 »
How long did that take?  Part of why I am curious is to see how large battles like that would affect ammunition consumption because I have noticed that I need more ammo for company-scale games than lance-scale or duels.

3 days at a con.  And we didn't really finish it...
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Diablo48

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #69 on: 25 September 2012, 22:26:40 »
3 days at a con.  And we didn't really finish it...

Wow.  Well, it definitely looks like I will have to run my own ammo endurance test at some point, so I will need a few days that I can leave my computer working to grind through the battle.


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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #70 on: 25 September 2012, 22:36:38 »
Minor for both. Maybe there are some reaons for some minor - modest changes. Better transperancy for Beginners and faster gameplay for company's sized battles.
With that in mind and without change the complete game it should be possible to find new friends and costumer for the universe without loosing the fan base.

I don't want a complete new game!

Extreme retcon means stop playing "our" game - it means playing and buying a new game, so please change the name Battletech for better understanding if you plan major changes!


p.s. a useful retcon would be: Dead of Natasha by Jump Jet!  I will never ever forgive this. :D
« Last Edit: 25 September 2012, 22:39:55 by Shohiro Satori »
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #71 on: 25 September 2012, 23:04:18 »
p.s. a useful retcon would be: Dead of Natasha by Jump Jet!  I will never ever forgive this. :D

At least have her crawl out of her bashed up mech before she gets torched by the jump jet. }:)
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spacewolflord

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #72 on: 26 September 2012, 17:33:05 »
For story only Modest since the story is the story.  Fixing weirdness and inconstancy are always wonderful but some times that changes things.  And adding in neat new tidbits would please me greatly.

For Rules, Major.  Changing the dice system so it can have a greater range of variable would be nice.  As in some systems/Weapons are D6s, other D12s maybe a few D20s as well.  Just wiping out unit types would be uncool for so many people.  Having a good reason to take something other then mechs that is balanced would be nice. Combined Arms for the win!  And a more user friendly universal make your own death machine rules.  ICE powered Ultra Lights with Snub Nosed AC2 would be fun!

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Xotl

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #73 on: 27 September 2012, 15:40:41 »
Not a big fan of story changes - the universe works well for me in that regard.  But something relatively small wouldn't really break things for me.

As for game mechanics, I went with Major, specifically because of the mention of deleting select unit types.  That's something I've wanted to see since Total Warfare and TechManual came out - IMHO there's just too many units next to no one cares about, but which require not only their own rules section detailing how they work in general, but also constant cross-referencing in many of the other rules sections (e.g. Protomechs on a roof on Sunday move like this, but Support Vehicles move like this), not to mention the space they take up in Technical Readouts.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #74 on: 27 September 2012, 16:53:14 »
While I technically voted "None" in the other thread, that's because the retcons I'd like to see aren't intrinsically tied to any one period or another.

For story:
I'd like to see population numbers a little bit smaller to half-way support the generally tiny armies of the successor states.
I'd like to see more jump ships.  Interstellar trade makes relatively little sense with how little cargo gets moved between planets.
I'd like to see more instances of varied tech levels among factions, instead of the relatively rigid Clan -> Major Inner Sphere -> Periphery.

For gameplay:
Ranges.  Just... ranges.  Honestly, they don't even hae to change.  There just has to be a reason that they're so truncated beyond "because gameplay".
Large aerospace unit construction rules.  It's trivially easy to build absolutely anything that can wipe the floor with anything in canon.  So trivially easy, in fact, that it makes me wonder who the hell is designing these things to be so deliberately inefficient.  The scale of them just makes it hideously easy to break the game.  This includes Dropships and larger craft.
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monbvol

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #75 on: 27 September 2012, 18:01:04 »
I'd actually go so far as to suggest as small as ASFs need some construction/game rules changes.  Everything bigger, absolutely they need changed without being slaved in any way to the old stats.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #76 on: 27 September 2012, 21:39:52 »
As for game mechanics, I went with Major, specifically because of the mention of deleting select unit types.  That's something I've wanted to see since Total Warfare and TechManual came out - IMHO there's just too many units next to no one cares about, but which require not only their own rules section detailing how they work in general, but also constant cross-referencing in many of the other rules sections (e.g. Protomechs on a roof on Sunday move like this, but Support Vehicles move like this), not to mention the space they take up in Technical Readouts.

I'd love to see all vehicles unified under a single set of (moderately basic) construction and gameplay rules.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #77 on: 28 September 2012, 10:13:32 »
A lot of the late rules got complex really fast especially since starting from Total Warfare on, you basically had rule book refering to other rule books. Once we started having Extended Range Pulse... things were going too far for me. There were tons of new ammo and tech I didn't even bother looking at. I didn't even pick up the new Tech Manual to avoid getting confused. It was a pain in the butt to see other people busting out hyper-advanced tech in games and using tactics I had no idea were coming based on wonky tech.

In regards to the story. I woldn't want to have to redo everything. A series of "Corrections" to keep people or units alive post Jihad is feasible, but I wouldn't want to have to redo the game. I mean, each game we play is basically a What if scenario. How many sanctioned games were played were the events from location to location were different? It's why we play the game, but that doesn't mean what was written post-event needs to change.

We tried to play a post Jihad game once, the problem we had was that we had no justifiable reason to really start a war. :P We Just finished a major war and each faction took the time to rebuild :) It made sense to us. We were making trades and getting along. :) I like that B-Tech has their major wars, then their brush wars.

If drastic changes are needed, it should be in the post-jihad era. I see all the things about getting rid of protos and I can live with that change, but the warship haters have to acknowledge that warships have been and should always be a part of intergalactic combat. I was so glad when the clans came back and we started having warships again. Not only that, it's fun. I developed my own quick strike rules for Naval Combat just so that we could have big battles quickly :)

Anywho. In the end. I support the game and like the concept and stories :)

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monbvol

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #78 on: 28 September 2012, 12:54:24 »
It is not that I hate Warships.  I just understand to make them work in a sane and sensible manner their construction rules need a major overhaul and divorcing from any and all previously published stats to do it.

Diablo48

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #79 on: 28 September 2012, 14:28:35 »
The other thing I think WarShips need is another look at scale.  The lengths are essentially mandatory due to the way DropShips have to attach, but make no sense whatsoever with the canon masses so I feel like there should be an order of magnitude revision to give WarShips a lot more mass.


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Van Gogh

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #80 on: 28 September 2012, 15:33:44 »
I may sound a bit more radical than the average, but if the stroy can be changed, then I'm in favor of a complete and deep change, almost a new storyline, perhaps more in line with the current aesthetics of the rules (more combined-arms with a 'Mech core), with results closer to what we know after all these years of playing the game (a Waps is impressive to a civilian, but it still cannont rule over a whole city, especially when PBIs wait for him with RPGs), solving the FASA-legacy problems ("""FASAnomincs""" for example, unseens, tweakings of technology introduction dates...).
The current one is still very nice (lovec how the Jihad was handled, as well as the transition to the Republican era), though, so perhaps both can be run in parallel ?

However, rules are more set, so apart from bugs and exploits patching, I'd lean towards keeping them... Playing the board game, as it is, is what glue the community :)

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #81 on: 29 September 2012, 01:31:13 »
Personally I love the fiction, RPG, and most aspects of the game, but I would love to see a quick strike release, I believe it should be a separate line much as Dark Age during the Fanpro days, maybe not a replacement for the original rules (they do allow allot more RP opportunities) but as a solid war-game to be played as such, I use quick strike as a way to resolve battles with AToW and it works well enough, but it depends heavily on the group.  And I'd love to see more focus on Quick Strike, is my big thing with the rules (5 really thick hardbound books is allot to talk new players into wrapping their heads around, even Total Warfare seems like too much to most people I've introduced BT to)

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #82 on: 30 September 2012, 04:11:12 »
I want to see the rules change to reflect the idea that weapon types all work the same way. I want an unjam roll on the UACs, most certainly. I want either a minimum range slapped on Clan LRMs, or a reduction on IS LRMs.

Fluff wise? I want 3057 gone. AND I want 2750's warships gone. Neither of them fit well, in my opinion. Unseen? Gone. Star Lord and Far Country? Gone. (Star Lord can be re-written, had a neat premise, but sub standard execution).

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #83 on: 30 September 2012, 09:36:24 »
I don't think the story should be changed one whit, though I'm for tweaking numbers like populations, force sizes, etc..  However, I'm all for changing the game wholesale both for me :) and to be more competitive in the modern gaming environment. With the mentioned jump to 3250, it would be perfect time. If something more akin to Leviathans was put in place (or at least something more elegant than the established system), allowing for larger and/or faster battles as the standard, I'd be a happy camper.  Proper stat conversion rules would also be a necessary development upon release, possibly even good sized freebie PDF conversions of the machines from select old TROs to keep vets from stampeding away.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #84 on: 30 September 2012, 14:32:34 »
History: I'm for major changes for appeal to new folks as long as some core elements stay the same.

Rules: Give me weapons tweaks, hex scale changes, earlier debuts for certain items, and other creative use of what's already there so that older published stuff can still function (if not well). Changes to heat, ranges, special rules, etc. are fine, but leave tons and crits alone so that only one predictable section of the record sheet changes.

Examples:

Fix the 2 LRM-5 vs. LRM-10 issue via tweaks to heat output on the LRM-5, relying on limited weapon slots to reign things in on the vehicle end. No construction rules change, but there is a change to optimal use.

Fix ballistic weapons through changes in performance and ammo availability. Leave tons and crits the same.

Certain items, such as OS launchers, that don't actually work, unfortunately need to be redone wholesale, but they tend to appear on few enough units that this should be OK.

Give us innovations based on simple tech (RL's VGL's artillery cannons, etc.) earlier in the timeline and spread them wider, including "logical extension" items like MRM's, L/HPPC's, LAC's, etc. that don't represent real breakthroughs, just changes in thinking and emphasis.

Thoroughly segregate tech bases without balancing them against each other in a "zero-sum" way, rather make new tech totally superior, but more expensive in whatever balance point system is used and leave it at that.

Accomplish this by making the new balance system "results based" i.e. I don't care what a unit is made out of. Look at the final product:  How fast can it move + how hard is it to kill + how hard can it hit at each range = how much it's worth.


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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #85 on: 30 September 2012, 15:06:08 »
This is tough.   On the story front it might be wise to make BT the future of 2012.  The backstory the future of the80's is hard for younger people to understand.   It is complicated by the fact that at some point the reason for the future of the80's was lost. Tech stoped advancing the way it should.  But I ould change the core of the story till the end of the Jihad

Gamewise.  I hate to say this but once the core rule books are done I would love to see a major change.   I would like to see a game pushed for playing battalion or larger scale games.   I love to do this with the current rules but it overwelms most people.   That said construction and customiztion should always be a part of any BT game. 

I will never stop playing BT as it stands today. But I belive that a larger market of young gamers exist for a game of large scale mech combat.   

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #86 on: 30 September 2012, 15:50:23 »
Minor changes all around.  I love this game and the story as is and I do not want to learn it all over again.  I hate reboots, especially when the original got it right the first time.
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TylerDurden

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #87 on: 30 September 2012, 15:55:41 »
But I belive that a larger market of young gamers exist for a game of large scale mech combat.

That's why Battle Force rules exist, quiaff?
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #88 on: 30 September 2012, 16:07:56 »
That's why Battle Force rules exist, quiaff?

One battleforce's support traditionaly hasn't been great.   Honestly I am wanting more of a market push of rules like quick strike as a mini game not a board game

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 2): How BIG a change are we talking...?
« Reply #89 on: 30 September 2012, 17:14:19 »
I agree, quick strike seems like a good cross between Battle Tech and Battle Force.  I really want to play it some day.
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