Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising

[Stormfury]

Can you cite a source on whether they WERE censured for war atrocities?  Just curious as to whether there is a source that does not conflict with your double negative.

...most people saw the bombardment of Robsart as revenge for Taurian actions in combat- starting with the decimation of the Davion naval contingent over Tentativa in 2577, and including several atrocities committed by Taurian fighting forces... The most infamous atrocity committed by Periphery forces remains the tainting of the water supply on Brussart by Taurian guerillas before they abandoned its major cities... the Taurians also occasionally staged "human wave" attacks, in which irregular bands of men, women, and sometimes even children advanced en mass...

Sorry, I can't provide a source, seeing as I take the lack of mention of nuclear weapons during the Reunification War as indication that there were no nuclear weapons used.

They were an accepted and common weapon and tactic at the time. Them not employing nuclear weapons would be so far out of the norm (and Taurian character) that a lack of nuclear weapons being used should certainly rate a mention.

[Taurianspy]

RAE,

You hit it on the head actually.  Overzelous, maybe, Reckless no.

Taurian society appears to be based on Utilitarian and Valorous behavior.  I will tentatively point in the direction of John Stuart Mill in an effort to help those that do not understand Taurian society.  Only in understanding the utilitarian way, can you understand the aspect of individual loss for the betterment of the whole.  And, if that loss is deemed valorous in the eyes of the state, a Taurian will do it.  This is where you get the overzelous (atleast as viewed by others).  But, utilitarianism does not promote waste, therefore recklessness creates waste and it is frowned upon in a utilitarian society.

I like examples so here they come.

Hadji Doru was in a position to take control of the TC and many wonder why he did not.  Because he is a utilitarian.  Although he had the power, he could not be responsible for creating a civil war that would have ensued if he did take power.  The loss to the TC would have been greater than the loss to the TC by supporting Jeffery Calderon in a peaceful change of power.  The second equation is the gain by the TC if Hadji Doru took over power in comparison to the gain to the TC if Jeffery Calderon took power.  Had Jeffery Calderon not been apart of the equation, the TC would likely be ruled by the Doru family now.  So, as disappointed as I was in the leaving of Hadji Doru, I do understand why he left.  Fortunately, the DA timelime links a Doru to the TC leadership, so we should have good things to look forward to.  But remember, as a utilitarian, the gain of a Doru as a leader needs to outweight the cost of gaining that leadership in order for the leadership change to happen.

The utilitarian principle as it applies to the Taurian soldier.  In giving my life, is the cost of my life worth the gains or reduction of suffering of the Taurian people.  That is the decision made by a Taurian soldier.  In destroying what we have built, we are removing resources that our enemies can use to do us, the Taurian people harm.  Even in death, can I decrease the pain of the Taurian people.  The cost of a fireship weight against the destruction of a Battleship and the cooralation of the damage that the battleship will likely do in comparison to the damage the fireship will likely do.   The TC has always been a society based on utilitarianism.

Look up Mill, and if you think you got him figured out, look up Bentham.  lol.

[Deadborder]

I'm just counting the posts until the first Offical Warning.

[Taurianspy]

I find the Brussart incident a bit on the ammusing side actually.  I can just picture the Taurian ghosts now with their guns pointed at the SLDF soldiers and forcing them to drink the water.  The aspect that the attack was against military personnel and the civilains were removed does not put it high on my list as an atrocity.

The bombardment against Robsart does not indicate the use of nuclear weapons, but it does grant acceptance as an atrocity because the bombardment was against a civilian population alla Botony Bay, Edo and Kentarus.

The human wave attacks were typically, ie other than occasionally, performed by the Taurian population.  A population that was trained while serviving their mandatory service to the TDF in exchange for a free advanced education.  A population that came to the defense of their nation.  A population that would less likely be identified as a civilian force and more as a partisan or militia force, ie Noble troops.

The occational use of women and children as human barriers in itself is not an atrocity.  The atrocity is the fact that any military personnel would advance through the civilian unarmed barrier rather than retreat through a unblocked path and pursue another avenue is the atrocity.

[Taurianspy]

I'm just counting the posts until the first Offical Warning.

You can stop counting, it was a couple posts above yours, lol

[Medron Pryde]

Taurianspy's way of saying it does conform with the idea that Taurian nobility is rarely rich, most often having gained their rank through actions, and not gaining vast tracts of lands and such with it.  In short, Taurian nobility are those who have proven themselves to their countrymen, not simply those who are rich and can buy whatever they want.

As for comparisons between the War of Terran Aggression and Word of Blake Jihad...The Taurians fought well and bloody in the first.  They fought a scorched earth campaign where they made certain that the Terrans got as little support from captured worlds as possible.  The citizens took up arms as well, defending their homes, and then MINING those homes when forced to retreat.  I don't know much about the Jihad, but according to what others say, the Taurians attacked worlds and nuked or poisoned inhabited cities full of civilians, or otherwise slaughtered noncombatants.  IF this is the accurate description of what happened, there is no comparison between the two wars when it comes to Taurian conduct.

BTW, I'm still waiting for a citation that the Taurians were censured for war atrocities after the War of Terran Aggression.

[Stormfury]

It has been provided.

I find the Brussart incident a bit on the ammusing side actually.  I can just picture the Taurian ghosts now with their guns pointed at the SLDF soldiers and forcing them to drink the water.  The aspect that the attack was against military personnel and the civilains were removed does not put it high on my list as an atrocity.

Actually, the Tarian forces tainted the water as they abandoned Brussart. The guerilla forces abandoned the defence of the cities, the cities were not abandoned in the sense you are applying. It was indiscriminate, but the SLDF objected to it because it was their personnel dying.

The occational use of women and children as human barriers in itself is not an atrocity.  The atrocity is the fact that any military personnel would advance through the civilian unarmed barrier rather than retreat through a unblocked path and pursue another avenue is the atrocity.

The section I excerpted goes on to say that the mobs were armed, carrying both firearms and satchel charges. The basic idea, as expanded upon later on that page, was to exact such a psychological toll on SLDF (and League-allied forces) that they would give up on the Reunification War. In essence, they were trying to damage the morale of the attacking forces by deliberately confronting them with what would otherwise be non-combatants and forcing them to fire.

[Liam's Ghost]

Point of order, Brussart came after the bombarding of Robsart.

[Stormfury]

Can't see a date listed for Brussart in H: MPS, but it does note that the reprisal attack against Robsart (2581) occurs some four years after the first Taurian war crimes (2577).

It is also probably worth saying that the target of a proscribed attack is irrelevant. It is the weapon itself, not the manner in which it is used, that defines such things.

[Dirk Bastion]

They were an accepted and common weapon and tactic at the time. Them not employing nuclear weapons would be so far out of the norm (and Taurian character) that a lack of nuclear weapons being used should certainly rate a mention.

That's not a source, that's conjecture.
Considering that seemingly every other atrocity during the Reunification war gets trotted around in detail in the several Periphery books (or in this thread, even), the nonmention of nuclear weapons supports my conjecture more than yours, imo.

[Liam's Ghost]

Can't see a date listed for Brussart in H: MPS, but it does note that the reprisal attack against Robsart (2581) occurs some four years after the first Taurian war crimes (2577).

It is also probably worth saying that the target of a proscribed attack is irrelevant. It is the weapon itself, not the manner in which it is used, that defines such things.

Earlier sources (periphery 1 and Star League sourcebook) say Brussart came later, in fact in retaliation for Robsart. Also, the Ares Conventions were suspended at the start of the fighting, before any Taurians had a chance to commit war crimes. The Star League set the rules by declaring no rules, and the Taurians complied.

The Taurians weren't above fighting dirty, however. The Star League's case, on the other hand, is painfully flimsy. The League started the war (even the famous Case Amber was triggered by a Davion first strike). The League threw out the rulebook, then the league got all huffy when the Taurians took them at their word.  ;D

[Stormfury]

That's not a source, that's conjecture.

No, that is what was common for the time. Nuclear weapons were used in space, and in other actions if they were required. The Clans are noted for turning their back on the use of such tactics, one of their very few deviations from the worship of the Star League.

Considering that seemingly every other atrocity during the Reunification war gets trotted around in detail in the several Periphery books (or in this thread, even), the nonmention of nuclear weapons supports my conjecture more than yours, imo.

For war crimes, perhaps. From the information in H: MPS, there are a number of undocumented incidents and so no concrete information one way or the other. In a general sense (space combat, etc) the use of nuclear weapons by both sides is a given. I took this

The use of nukes in the Reunification War never happened.

to mean you were arguing they had never been used at any point, rather than for attacks on non-combatants or what-have-you. So probably just talking past each other there :P

Earlier sources (periphery 1 and Star League sourcebook) say Brussart came later, in fact in retaliation for Robsart.

Fair enough. I have the Star League .pdf, but I hat, hate, hate  >:( reading those things. I have a Thing about reading what was intended to be a book by scrolling, and my laptop likes Adobe Acrobat about as much as I do...

Also, the Ares Conventions were suspended at the start of the fighting, before any Taurians had a chance to commit war crimes. The Star League set the rules by declaring no rules, and the Taurians complied.

Even so, it was the Taurians rather than the League making more frequent use of such tactics.

The League started the war (even the famous Case Amber was triggered by a Davion first strike).

Eh... accidentally (or "accidentally-on-purpose") the Taurians breached the Malagrotta agreement prior to that. Whilst I can understand wanting to be left alone and accept that the Star League should have just let the Periphery do its own thing, if you're going to play "I'm not touching you" there may well be consequences... especially if you anger a larger, more powerful nation with an even more dangerous best friend. Not too bright all around, there.

[Liam's Ghost]

At Malagrotta the Taurians attempted to withdraw peacefully and were fired upon. They offered restitution and were rebuffed. Had it been a regular border thing, it would have passed without incident, probably faster than the numerous cross border raids that occur all the time.

Instead, the Star League decided it (and the snowball incident in the Outworlds) was a suitable pretext to invade the periphery, and suspend the Ares Convention. And not just the involved periphery states, but the Magistracy of Canopus as well, which had no triggering event.

If a bunch of ships just popping into a star system, getting jumped, and trying to withdraw is grounds for all that... well, that's an awful low threshold for total war.

As for the Taurian actions, the SLDF made the rules. Or rather the lack thereof. The Taurian Concordat's only other option was surrender, which just ain't Taurian.

[Stormfury]

The Taurian WarShips claimed to be "lost." One vessel accidentally Jumping into a highly contentious demilitarised zone is on the extreme edge of plausibility and would have provoked a major diplomatic incident. Three or more vessels (two Wagon Wheels and one other WarShip at least) arriving together, not so much. They also hung around long enough to be detected and for a Davion fleet to mobilise.

With action against the Outworlds Alliance already in full swing, it is very difficult to see the arrival of Taurian vessels at Malagrotta as anything other than deliberate provocation. I suspect they were hoping to simply annex Malagrotta rather than touch off a major border dispute, but the intent is still there.

In BT, when you Jump you have to input your coordinates and make certain calculations. At some point one of the three plus Captains or Navigators should have said "Uh, guys... this is a DMZ, are we really sure we want to violate the treaties in place by going there?". Mis-Jumps either result in going nowhere or arriving late, not popping up somewhere you didn't intend to be, after all.

[Liam's Ghost]

Regardless, declaring war, declaring total war, and just for kicks also declaring war on the neighboring completely uninvolved state?

[Stormfury]

The Magistracy of Canopus? Yeah. The Outworlds Alliance copped it over some pretty poor intelligence work, the Magistracy of Canopus were minding their own business, and the Rim Worlds (or at least, the leadership of the Rim Worlds) were in favour of becoming a part of the Star League.

However, the Concordat had been building up militarily and were beginning to act aggressively towards the Suns.

Ultimately what it comes down to is Cameron's vision of a united humanity (albeit united his way and under his banner). Not the best of justifications, I agree, but it is what it is.

Despite the declaration of "total war", the Star League invaders conducted a remarkably clean operation. They were subjected to a number of provocations from the Taurian defenders (including Taurian militants killing Taurian civilians, as on Brussart) and aside from Robsart declined to retaliate.

In general, though, greater and more poetic minds than I have put it like this, and I completely agree:

"War is the greatest plague that can afflict humanity, it destroys religion, it destroys states, it destroys families. Any scourge is preferable to it."

But then, this is BattleTech, so...

[Medron Pryde]

Actually, it is very easy to explain a "misjump" into Malagrotta.  I once actually wrote a story (never published) that has been nulled out by the change in ships involved in recent fiction.  But the basic premise still works.  ;)

Imagine a squadron of ships getting ready to jump, sharing navigation data as they calculate their jump.  Somewhere along the way, one numeral gets flipped (was it an accident or did somebody plan it?), the error propagates into the other calculations, all ship computers agree on the final destination, and the jump is initiated.

They arrive, not where they meant to be, their stellar navigation database now corrupted, and start asking where they are.  The Davion planet, fearing invasion, doesn't answer and instead calls in naval support.  Boom boom happens.

As for the Star League running a "clean war."  Hah.  The Davion troops in the Outworlds and the Marik forces in the Magistracy were pretty clean.  I don't know much about the Drac forces.  The Star League forces that hit the Outworlds were so sadistic in wiping out either 10% or 90% (I can't remember off the top of my head) of the population of entire planetary systems that they became known as Forlough's Baby Killers.  And when the Davions got stopped cold by the Taurians, Forlough was sent to fight THEM and we got to see what happened on the Taurian front.

BTW - still waiting for a citation that the Star League (or anybody) censured the Taurian Concordat for war crimes.  I have seen examples of what ComStar of 3025 considers war crimes, but I have seen nothing so far that suggests the Star League Council (or anybody else) voted through a Bill of Censure against the Taurian Concordat for war crimes.  Please show that citation if you have it.

Also, please provide any source for Taurians killing other Taurians during the Star League Invasion.

[Dirk Bastion]

In a general sense (space combat, etc) the use of nuclear weapons by both sides is a given. I took this to mean you were arguing they had never been used at any point, rather than for attacks on non-combatants or what-have-you. So probably just talking past each other there :P

Yes, that seems to be the case. My original response was denying that the Taurians used nukes Jihad-era style during the Reunification War, especially since the post I responded to seemed to take pride in it.

[Korzon77]

yeah, Forlough is very much kitten eating evil-- his tactics remind one of either the Japanese in China in the 1930's or the German's on the Eastern Front.  The fact that he wasn't brought back, very quickly, indicates that either the SL didn't care-- or was utterly stupid (or didn't know). 

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Didn't the Malagrotta Incident got cleared up already? The Taurians themselves secretly admitted they wanted to test Davion resolve, so they deliberately "mis-jumped" Warships into a DMZ. This is all from the Taurian section of FM:P.

I'm curious, how much forces do they have still in their disposal? I count less than 6 regiments from M&M, but with all these sudden explosion of newTech toys being used by the Taurians, i wonder how can the Taurians still be reduced to such a small size by 3130.

[Taurianspy]

Stormfury,

I don't suppose that your quote went something like this;

"...When First Lord Cameron renounced the tenets of the Ares Convention in 2579, his enemies followed suit.  The most common horror was the massacre of civilians on many Periphery worlds and the wholesale destruction of their farmland and their industries..." Star League Sourcebook, Horrors of War, pg.49

The following paragraph talks about periphery tactics, in the context of 'periphery troops'.

Here comes your armed women and children;

"...On Maia, women and children lined the thoroughfares leading to the planet's capital, blocking the advance of the 28th Diomede Regulars while a savage artillery barrage rained down on the confused attackers."  The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30

And here is SLDF Retribution;

"...Despite Franklin's victory, the hundreds of casualties prompted the Admiral to commit a rash act of retribution.  Her orbital bombardment of Robsart's capital killed over 30 thousand civilians..."  The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30

The following paragraph;

"In July 2581, the Fourth Corps, advancing on Brussart, learned how hard the Taurians had taken the destruction on Robsart.  Though the 16th and 19th Tamara Regulars were expecting a costly encounter on the plains of Abraham, they found the area empty as they reached the cities Malachi and Remington.  The Taurians [not Taurian military] had seemingly abandoned the cities, presumably to hide in the hills.  Within a week after their unopposed occupation of the cities, over three-fourths of the invasion force died from massive doses of slow acting poison that had been introduced into their supplies..."  The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30



I think that pretty much clears up the perception deficit on Taurian war atrocities during the Reunification War.  I hope you can learn from this.  One with such great convictions should have those convictions based on facts, and not false hopes.  Least thy strength be squandered on untenable position.

Fret not my student, for I am only human just as you.  As you learn and grow, I become senile and forgetful.  You will one day surpass me, just not today.

I can only wish that when that day comes, I have the graces to admit defeat and move on.  Now, that is a lesson we all can learn from.

[Stormfury]

"...When First Lord Cameron renounced the tenets of the Ares Convention in 2579, his enemies followed suit.  The most common horror was the massacre of civilians on many Periphery worlds and the wholesale destruction of their farmland and their industries..." Star League Sourcebook, Horrors of War, pg.49

So, that will be two years after, and presumably in response to, the use of such tactics by the TDF (2577, p. 19 H: MPS), then?

"...On Maia, women and children lined the thoroughfares leading to the planet's capital, blocking the advance of the 28th Diomede Regulars while a savage artillery barrage rained down on the confused attackers."  The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30

One example of an unrelated action does not refute what H: MPS has to say on the matter.

"In July 2581, the Fourth Corps, advancing on Brussart, learned how hard the Taurians had taken the destruction on Robsart.  Though the 16th and 19th Tamara Regulars were expecting a costly encounter on the plains of Abraham, they found the area empty as they reached the cities Malachi and Remington.  The Taurians [not Taurian military] had seemingly abandoned the cities, presumably to hide in the hills.  Within a week after their unopposed occupation of the cities, over three-fourths of the invasion force died from massive doses of slow acting poison that had been introduced into their supplies..."  The Periphery Sourcebook, Debacle, pg.30

Two cities in one region.

I think that pretty much clears up the perception deficit on Taurian war atrocities during the Reunification War.  I hope you can learn from this.  One with such great convictions should have those convictions based on facts, and not false hopes.  Least thy strength be squandered on untenable position.

One quote that demonstrates the SLDF put up with the Taurians committing war crimes for two years before deciding enough was enough, another that was completely unrelated to the point you're attempting to make, and a third that doesn't actually say what you think it does?

[Taurianspy]

MPS Handbook quotes to settle many statements.

"...“the Malagrotta Crisis”—a misguided Federated Suns assault on Taurian naval vessels that had strayed into the Malagrotta system and panicked a Davion mining outpost on a titanium-rich local moon..."  pg.17

"The Concordat suffered fewer atrocities [than the Outworld Alliance], but one infamous incident stands out as among the most senseless civilian massacres of the Reunification War. After winning a vicious naval battle for control of the Robsart system in 2581, Admiral Janissa Franklin of the SLDF ordered the orbital bombardment of Robsart’s capital city. Thirty thousand civilians died in the conflagration, which was widely viewed as payback for stiff Taurian resistance. Certainly, this assault had no military justification;  Admiral Franklin had just broken the back of the Taurian Navy. Across the Periphery, most people saw the bombardment of Robsart as revenge for Taurian actions in combat—starting with the decimation of the Davion naval contingent over Tentativa in 2577, and including several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces throughout the bitter Concordat campaign."  pg 19.

The complexity of the last sentence can be confusing, but the reference of 2577 is linked to Tentativa [Case Amber].  By referring to my previous link, those "several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces"  are post Robsart bombardment and they sorta loose the magnitude the MPS writer portrays with sweeping generalization.  Shall we see the difference;

"The most infamous atrocity committed by Periphery forces remains the tainting of the water supply on Brussart by Taurian guerrillas
before they abandoned its major cities. This act inflicted a slow and agonizing death on the planet’s SLDF conquerors. The Taurians also occasionally staged “human wave” attacks, in which irregular bands of men, women and sometimes even children advanced en masse on
SLDF ’Mechs and motorized units with satchel charges and wild rebel yells. The perpetrators of these suicidal assaults died in droves, yet they kept on coming."  pg.19

I really don't need to go any further. 

[Taurianspy]

Didn't the Malagrotta Incident got cleared up already? The Taurians themselves secretly admitted they wanted to test Davion resolve, so they deliberately "mis-jumped" Warships into a DMZ. This is all from the Taurian section of FM:P.

I'm curious, how much forces do they have still in their disposal? I count less than 6 regiments from M&M, but with all these sudden explosion of newTech toys being used by the Taurians, i wonder how can the Taurians still be reduced to such a small size by 3130.

I admit on the FM:U, I do not have it available at this time, its getting late and I'm heading to bed.  I will verify my response tomorrow.  But, as I remember it, although the TC was in the area of Malagrotta staging probing response maneuvers, the intent was not to cross the border, only to provoke a response to their presence in that area.  By the response, you can gather intelligence of what is in the area of defense.  It is the same tactic in reverse that the Taurians used in Case Amber that gave the perception that limited forces were in the area.  It is a naval maneuver most naval personnel are accustom to performing. The maneuver is usually followed by leaving the area once the intelligence is gathered.  The intent is typically not intended to cross the borders and create an international incident.

The TC is a reduced size due to losses coming up in the near future to Davion attacks, and the territorial loss to the Davions in some form cause the TC to continue splintering.  Beyond popular believe, the TC was founded on voluntary inclusion, and if planetary bodies that maintain their own sovereignty wish to leave, TC basic freedoms allow them to leave. 

[Stormfury]

"...“the Malagrotta Crisis”—a misguided Federated Suns assault on Taurian naval vessels that had strayed into the Malagrotta system and panicked a Davion mining outpost on a titanium-rich local moon..."  pg.17

That is the Periphery/Taurian IC interpretation of events. Needless to say, Handbook: House Davion has a very different take on the event. In any case, there is no way for the vessels to have truly wound up there by accident; you can only plot a Jump to a position you have co-ordinates to. They knew they were making a Jump to Malagrotta.

The complexity of the last sentence can be confusing, but the reference of 2577 is linked to Tentativa [Case Amber].  By referring to my previous link, those "several atrocities inflicted by Taurian fighting forces"  are post Robsart bombardment and they sorta loose the magnitude the MPS writer portrays with sweeping generalization.  Shall we see the difference;

There is no complexity involved. The Taurian attacks began in 2577; it was not one incident but many that caused the reprisal at Robsart.

I admit on the FM:U, I do not have it available at this time, its getting late and I'm heading to bed.  I will verify my response tomorrow.

There is nothing in FM: P or FM: U that says different; the Taurian story is that they were there by accident. However, the Malagrotta incident occurred after the Taurians attacked Davion naval forces while they fought the Capellan Confederation (FM: P, p. 47). The Suns actually thought they were fighting pirates that continued to attack them, and discontinued their operations to concentrate on the Confederation.

But, as I remember it, although the TC was in the area of Malagrotta staging probing response maneuvers, the intent was not to cross the border, only to provoke a response to their presence in that area.  By the response, you can gather intelligence of what is in the area of defense.

If you are going to deliberately provoke your enemy into seeing what they will do about it, maybe you had better be prepared for them to, you know, do something about it?

[ArkRoyalRavager]

CHeck FM:P again. I believe it is one of the Blakist remarks or by the Taurians themselves that documents were found buried by the TDF stating they wanted to test Davion resolve by deliberately "mis-jumping" into Malagrotta.

[Stormfury]

Yeah, but the official story is still that it was accidental, and they still disavow any responsibility. I find the Taurian take on it to be fig-leaf justification after the fact, but even Brenda Calderon's records are phrased ambiguously. Ultimately, they're going to keep pointing the finger at the Davions no matter what.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Which is a sad thing. I dont wish to start any flame wars here, just stating the facts on who actually provoked who.

[Stormfury]

I agree. With both sentiments.

[HuronWarrior]

Hey Taurians, hows the Dark Age going? Any news on the relations and governments of the Calderon Protectorate and Concordat proper?