Author Topic: HBS Battletech - The Argo  (Read 16595 times)

Joskney

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HBS Battletech - The Argo
« on: 01 May 2018, 19:05:19 »
The Argo is a sweet design for a non-warship.  Who's brainchild is this ship and why don't we have more like them?  ALL dropship transports have a rotating, gravitation ring that transfers for flight, 2 docking points and 'mech bays?   Since my gear is buried in the garage for the last 7 years,  any reverse Aerotech builders out there want to help??
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #1 on: 01 May 2018, 19:51:54 »
The major problem with reverse engineering it is that it is presently rules-illegal. You can't have a dropship with Docking Collars or a grav deck.
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Joskney

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #2 on: 01 May 2018, 23:05:42 »
So build it as a core-less warship.  Come now, it is a challenge for you all.  YOU are just trying to get me to dig in my garage!! ARE YOU in league with my wife?!
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #3 on: 02 May 2018, 00:43:46 »
Perhaps the larger issue with sticking to the rules-as-is is figuring out how the KF boom works.

Figuring out how to allow daisychaining DropShips to DropShips to JumpShip docking collars without breaking the lore could be difficult.

Then again, maybe the Argo is a Behemoth sized DropShip and it's just physically big enough to house a custom "Leopard Transport Bay" the way smaller DropShips can house Small Craft Bays.  Hold it physically within the hull of the Argo rather than stuck on to the side like in the HBS animation.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #4 on: 02 May 2018, 01:06:49 »
The grav deck would seem less of a engineering problem and more of a "why bother" problem. Most dropships have little reason to have one.

Dropships can also just dock with each other in space.

If they're all docked together, and the argo is docked to a jumpship for a jump, it's a little trickier. I would imagine it as the Argo functioning something like a "patch cable" between the kf-boom of the jumpship and the other dropships connected to it, allowing for a direct connection between every dropship and the jumpship.  I would assume that the total mass of the dropships connected to this pile of ships would have to be no more than the maximum mass the jumpship could normally dock (each docking collar on a jumpship can only transport up to 100,000 tons).

So what I would imagine is actually a relatively standard dropship, maybe a bit more expensive for our "patch cable" style KF boom. Throw in a grav deck, maybe make it on the order of 30,000 tons (or smaller even. The smaller the Argo, the bigger the ships it can support). The grav deck implies it hangs around in space a lot, so thrust is probably minimal. Basically, we've practically got a space station here. Or a sort of addon intended to increase the value of smaller jumpships and dropships by expanding available collars.

Then again, maybe the Argo is a Behemoth sized DropShip and it's just physically big enough to house a custom "Leopard Transport Bay" the way smaller DropShips can house Small Craft Bays.  Hold it physically within the hull of the Argo rather than stuck on to the side like in the HBS animation.

Unfortunately, that won't work. If your dropship has a KF Boom, it has to use a KF boom equipped docking collar. 

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #5 on: 02 May 2018, 01:18:08 »
The major problem with reverse engineering it is that it is presently rules-illegal. You can't have a dropship with Docking Collars or a grav deck.
The only way to make this is with apocryphal 'Monitor' rules. I think I posted one of these way back when it was first mentioned.


EDIT: I did and it can be found HERE
« Last Edit: 02 May 2018, 01:19:45 by Sharpnel »
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #6 on: 02 May 2018, 01:19:15 »
Kinda in the rabbit hole.

So assuming the patch cable thing is how it works, we're also left to wonder why the Argo never took off, or what other limitations it might have. I would suspect cost is one big one. Another might be that it requires a higher level of technology than the succession wars inner sphere could replicate. A third might be inherent limitations.

I'm leaning towards it not being cost effective, and also there being a hard limit, like if you try to chain more than one argo together, the jumps get excessively melty.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #7 on: 02 May 2018, 01:22:27 »
The only way to make this is with apocryphal 'Monitor' rules. I think I posted one of these way back when it was first mentioned.

Or a space station, which can carry docking collars, grav decks, and be transported through hyperspace (though obviously not with dropships docked to its collars).

It works fine if you just cross out the word dropship and replace it with space station.

EDIT: Honestly, reading what Sarna has to say, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't just be a space station. The only thing about it that doesn't fit those criteria is the whole "transporting dropships along with you when you jump" element.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2018, 01:24:48 by Liam's Ghost »
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #8 on: 02 May 2018, 01:34:00 »
Visually, the Argo takes up two docking collars.  Therefore one could argue that the Leopard being "docked" is a visual fudge, and rules-wise, the Argo and the Leopard each take a separate collar.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #9 on: 02 May 2018, 02:05:16 »
Given that the grav deck has no impact on gameplay, you can handwave it as fluff on a DropShip.
By the way, the novel The Price of Glory features a JumpShip (unnamed, and of unspecified class) that rotates its two DropShips on monofilament cables for artificial gravity so the concept as such isn't entirely new.

You cannot, however, dock a DropShip to anything but a JumpShip core for jumping. No daisy-chaining. The rules and explanations may be vague as to how exactly KF fields, KF booms and docking collars work (and how the K-1 DropShuttle fits into the picture, see this thread); but in any case it's been emphasized by TPTB that Argo-style daisy chaining is impossible.
You can of course always invent new rules, and retcon the setting to say it is possible after all. But in this particular case, it turns the idea on its head that JumpShips are a bottleneck in interstellar transportation. The entire FASAnomics of space travel was built on the idea that you need to connect a DropShip directly into a JumpShip hardpoint.

Finally, core-less WarShips are called Monitors in BattleTech, and TPTB have gone to great lengths to firmly establish that the idea isn't viable. See Monitor (naval concept).
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #10 on: 02 May 2018, 02:24:42 »
but in any case it's been emphasized by TPTB that Argo-style daisy chaining is impossible.

Not that I doubt you, but could you provide a source?

Quote
You can of course always invent new rules, and retcon the setting to say it is possible after all. But in this particular case, it turns the idea on its head that JumpShips are a bottleneck in interstellar transportation. The entire FASAnomics of space travel was built on the idea that you need to connect a DropShip directly into a JumpShip hardpoint.

We've already established that making the "daisy chain" doesn't go along with current rules, and nobody is arguing otherwise. I think you're overstating the impact its existence would have, though. There are a lot of ways it could turn out to not be worth the effort, even if it's handy in certain narrow cases. Also, you used the word FASAnomics, which feels like an effort to shut down discussion. The very concept of FASAnomics is the notion that battletech's economy doesn't make sense, so claiming anything as a linchpin that holds it together is just silly.

Even so, if the "daisy chain" (personally, I still prefer the term patch cable) turns out to be real, it still has to be widely available enough, sufficiently easy to manufacture, and sufficiently cost effective to be worth pursuing. We have no indication at the moment that it's any of those things.

EDIT: I feel it worth re-iterating that we know almost nothing at all about what the Argo can actually do. All of our worst predictions and theories are pretty much just speculation base on virtually no details and the fact that it's called a "dropship".
« Last Edit: 02 May 2018, 02:28:14 by Liam's Ghost »
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #11 on: 02 May 2018, 13:40:01 »
Meh, my headcannon is that the Argo is (rules-wise) carrying 2 Leopards as cargo, not "daisy-chaining docking collars".  Given the extreme disparity in size, I think this makes more sense - just REALLY big shuttles. :)

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #12 on: 02 May 2018, 14:21:56 »
Meh, my headcannon is that the Argo is (rules-wise) carrying 2 Leopards as cargo, not "daisy-chaining docking collars".  Given the extreme disparity in size, I think this makes more sense - just REALLY big shuttles. :)
By that rationale, a Behemoth should be able to carry 39 Leopards - a suggestion that pops up from time to time. TPTB have ruled this to be impossible but haven't given a detailed explanation why, except game balance.
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #13 on: 02 May 2018, 15:05:21 »
Another way to wrangle the KF problem to make the Argo work is to imagine the parasitic craft to not actually be a Leopard but instead a hypothetical dropship-sized "small craft" without its own KF boom... still large enough to deliver 4 BattleMechs to the field but small enough to fit inside the Argo/Argo's KF boom field.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #14 on: 02 May 2018, 20:24:46 »
maybe we need new rules for something like this next TRO?
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #15 on: 02 May 2018, 21:12:58 »
Another way to wrangle the KF problem to make the Argo work is to imagine the parasitic craft to not actually be a Leopard but instead a hypothetical dropship-sized "small craft" without its own KF boom... still large enough to deliver 4 BattleMechs to the field but small enough to fit inside the Argo/Argo's KF boom field.

So the Dropshuttle design?  The largest ones were up to 5000 tons, larger than a Union Dropship.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #16 on: 02 May 2018, 21:18:46 »
Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #17 on: 02 May 2018, 21:38:31 »
I wonder if the Argo was intended to be a JumpShip (perhaps subcompact like those BugEye spyships or whatever they were called) by HBS very early on. This would fit its intended mission as dedicated exploration ship with its own DropShips and gravdecks, and it might explain why it has certain visual similarities to the JumpShip depicted in the game.
(I also wonder if the thing was originally meant to carry three Leopards for a company's worth of 'Mechs, as it is the game has way too much pilot and 'Mech space available as you can only take a lance to a mission, HBS did mention having explored variety of unit sizes.)

Otherwise, i think even the game called the ship a mobile space station. Obviously this does not still allow daisychaining KF-field but it sorta does explain the gravdecks and the Argo not being a real DropShip as it never lands anywhere.

As for the KF-field extension, perhaps the Star League did figure out a method for that, one that was tested on the Argo but then forgotten for whatever reason (or abandoned for side-effects, like Star League Black Boxes were, supposedly).

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #18 on: 02 May 2018, 21:39:30 »
Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.

Have they, though?  Sure KF booms inside KF Booms is a nonstarter.. but DropShips carry 100-200 ton spacecraft that lack KF booms all the time in the form of ASFs and Small Craft.  Sure there's the problem of there generally being no infrastructure to support dropship sized craft that lack KF booms.. but there's no academic reason a custom DropShip can't have a custom parasitic 4000 ton craft so long as it lacks a KF boom?

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #19 on: 02 May 2018, 21:46:43 »
I wonder if the Argo was intended to be a JumpShip (perhaps subcompact like those BugEye spyships or whatever they were called) by HBS very early on. This would fit its intended mission as dedicated exploration ship with its own DropShips and gravdecks, and it might explain why it has certain visual similarities to the JumpShip depicted in the game.
(I also wonder if the thing was originally meant to carry three Leopards for a company's worth of 'Mechs, as it is the game has way too much pilot and 'Mech space available as you can only take a lance to a mission, HBS did mention having explored variety of unit sizes.)

Otherwise, i think even the game called the ship a mobile space station. Obviously this does not still allow daisychaining KF-field but it sorta does explain the gravdecks and the Argo not being a real DropShip as it never lands anywhere.

As for the KF-field extension, perhaps the Star League did figure out a method for that, one that was tested on the Argo but then forgotten for whatever reason (or abandoned for side-effects, like Star League Black Boxes were, supposedly).

I want to say that when they first introduced the Argo and were explaining it, they described it as a one-of-a-kind Star League experimental exploratory craft that was a hybrid JumpShip/Space Station. No idea why they changed it to be a mere DropShip.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #20 on: 02 May 2018, 21:52:20 »
Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.

True, but if the Argo was from before the modern Jumpship/Dropship combo, then it would be jumping on its own, and carry the Dropshuttles.  The Dropshuttles deliver the Mechs to the planet's surface and back.

Basically, the Argo is a Primitive Jumpship, and the Dropshuttles are what are used instead of Dropships.  The advantage is that you don't need to worry about KF setups in the Dropshuttles.  The downside is that they take up a lot of room inside the Argo.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #21 on: 02 May 2018, 21:53:06 »
I want to say that when they first introduced the Argo and were explaining it, they described it as a one-of-a-kind Star League experimental exploratory craft that was a hybrid JumpShip/Space Station. No idea why they changed it to be a mere DropShip.
Did they now... explains a great deal.

As for it becoming a DropShip... For one thing, they wouldn't have space to depict actual JumpShips really, or they'd be limited for very short time while the player doesn't yet have Argo.
And then there's the KF core. I reckon it really would need a compact or sub-compact core to work were it an intra-system-traveling JumpShip like WarShips. But if it were a sub-compact, it might not mesh well with the universe, being technically/arbitrarily a WarShip. An unique DropShip is likely to meld into the universe better than being the sole active "WarShip" in the entire Inner Sphere and Periphery circa 3025.

True, but if the Argo was from before the modern Jumpship/Dropship combo, then it would be jumping on its own, and carry the Dropshuttles.  The Dropshuttles deliver the Mechs to the planet's surface and back.

Basically, the Argo is a Primitive Jumpship, and the Dropshuttles are what are used instead of Dropships.  The advantage is that you don't need to worry about KF setups in the Dropshuttles.  The downside is that they take up a lot of room inside the Argo.
Only it is explicitly from later Star League time, not a primitive thing.
Plus the Leopard is a Leopard...

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #22 on: 02 May 2018, 22:09:01 »
So build it as a core-less warship.  Come now, it is a challenge for you all.  YOU are just trying to get me to dig in my garage!! ARE YOU in league with my wife?!

Whatever you do... just make sure she doesn’t speak to mine. Then we’ll BOTH be cleaning stuff out!

Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

On another note - my Argo has a zero-G pool...


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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #23 on: 02 May 2018, 22:11:39 »
After reading the Sarna description I'd call it a space station.
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #24 on: 02 May 2018, 22:22:47 »
Only it is explicitly from later Star League time, not a primitive thing.
Plus the Leopard is a Leopard...

I could see someone pulling the KF boom out of their Leopard if they expected it to only operate in concert with the Argo, and the Argo itself was jump transportable.

I mean, I wouldn't do it, but then I'd also either park my Lostech star league era space base a long way away from where it might get shot at, or sell it to an interested party and pocket the extra cash. Either way, the ability to transport the Argo itself would be used as little as possible.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #25 on: 02 May 2018, 22:29:56 »
Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

That's implied, but not outright declared. For example, the moon where you pick it up is airless, and ships like the Behemoth can land there as well, IIRC.

I view it as a DropShip that violates the Gravdeck rule. Easiest thing to do.
I see utility for it within the exploratory framework.
- Having a mothership that can stay in orbit indefinitely is useful
- Gravdecks allow you to acclimate your crew to differing gravities without relying on thrust to do that job
- Being able to dock and support smaller DropShips is very desirable in situations where you're the only vessel for lightyears (beyond the JumpShip that's a week or more away from you)

Basically, an Argo is as all-in-one as they could make it, bringing the capabilities of a large vessel to the relatively small and mobile package of a DropShip. You send one of those along with an Invader, and that expedition can do everything.


Quote
On another note - my Argo has a zero-G pool...

It will every time it's in orbit and the decks don't spin. ;)

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #26 on: 03 May 2018, 01:07:06 »
Weren't there two of these DropShips built? I vaguely remember that there were.
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #27 on: 03 May 2018, 01:51:45 »
Weren't there two of these DropShips built? I vaguely remember that there were.

Yep. The other was christened the Myrmidon and was sabotaged before launch, leading it to be scrapped before it ever took flight.

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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #28 on: 03 May 2018, 17:33:34 »
In game, since I don't have it yet, is the Argo ever depicted as actually being attached to a JumpShip of some kind?  If so, that's fine, but treating it as a JumpShip instead of a DropShip or station, even a compact core JumpShip (ie. WarShip) with a fractional thrust transit drive (1/2) or stationkeeping drive would cover pretty much all the design oddities we've seen.
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Re: HBS Battletech - The Argo
« Reply #29 on: 03 May 2018, 17:41:17 »
In game, since I don't have it yet, is the Argo ever depicted as actually being attached to a JumpShip of some kind?

Yes. They make it look like it docks to 2 docking collars.

It's capable of 2G thrust after you invest in improving it.

The solution is just ignore Paul.