Author Topic: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game  (Read 3897 times)

beachhead1985

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For the past couple of odd weekends, or about two months, I have been running a quick and easy game called: RECON.

RECON has a lot of benefits to it; it's quick to learn and easy to play and character creation can be summed up onto 1 page, with an accompanying 15-20 pages of skills.

I did a lot to make the game run smoother; I made cheat sheets for myself, totally re-worked weapon stats and produced character creation and skill list handouts. As RECON has some skills work TOTALLY different from others, multiple copies are essential.

The result is that my neat little 4-man team is ready for the big leagues and transfer out of the 26th "Americal" Division to a more elite outfit as part of a trade by their boss.

But why i am writing is to talk about a neat aspect of the skill and attribute mechanics.

RECON is a percentile-based system (my preference) and both attributes (there are only 3) and skills are determined by rolling a D100 of any form (most role-playing is actually directed by your chosen aligment, not your stats).

The crux of the matter is that this means you can roll a starting character with a 100 or a 01 in something.

Now in attributes, if your character rolls any one stat below a 30 or has a sum total of all three stats adding up to 100 or less; you can *Choose* to roll a new character. I allowed re-rolls of individual stats before 30 or you can keep them.

This results in Characters who can begin play as immensely capable, but adds a safety net to prevent everything but a sort of incompetence-by-choice. I actually get why someone would keep a 4-F character, as one of my NPCs naturally rolled up 100s in two stats.

Then he rolled a 01 for airborne.

Oh yes. No safety net for jumping from planes.

Skills are determined the same way. Except for a few that you either have or don't (like suppressors) or that are determined by your stats, most skills have a minimum competancy; meaning if you roll below that, then you get bumped up to that level. Say it's 35 and you roll a 28? Bump it to a 35.

Improvement of stats and skills is both possible and reasonable. Some skills even have a familiarity mechanic; such as with firearms: where you have a fixed base-skill and your upgrades only kick into a specific model of some type of firearm you are familiar with. So Billy Jack rolled a 63 in Assault Rifle; he has a 63 with all unfamiliar assault rifles. He has three ranks (5% each improvments) in M16 and One in AK-47. So his skill with an M16 is a culmative 78, but drops to 68 with that AK he picked up escaping from the VC prison camp. But, he's Billy Jack; so he has great unarmed.

I have gradually come to the realization that this might be an excellant mechanic upon which to base a battletech RPG.

Now, previously; I have made and run a simplified version of MechWarrior 1st Edition I called MW:EZ, but it suffered from much the same handicap many RPGs do, especially ones which are attached to fluff universes; the game rarely matches the experience as advertised in the fiction.

"Advertised in the fiction?" You say. "But the fiction is not intended as an accurate advertisement for gameplay."

Then, IMHO; you need to adjust one of those things. I know, I know; we have this whole Art > Fluff > Rules thing. Well I have my issues with that; I think that the rules should be informed by the fluff and the art because the background works in-practice as a kind of long-sell ad for the game itself. How do this affect BT RPGs? I was struck how at least as far back as MW3E, it was possible to easily generate characters (and easier with NPCs) who would have no trouble moving in the rarefied circles the novels presented; minor and major nobles and the like. This gave the PCs the capacity to influence events on the strategic scale with their actions and I have known many players for whom the maximum level of influence onthe highest levels of the world they play in is their goal. MW3E, at the least delivered this and maybe it was more accessible in MW2E, as well. I found in MW1E, that the rules were there, but it actually made more sense to play and try and gain landholdings and get into the upper classes that way, than do it in character creation.

What they didn't deliver was the staple of the fluff; reasonably to highly-competant characters right out of the CC process. I found that any characters would need A LOT of work and experience before they compared with even a Rando Cardrissian from the novels. Starting skill caps were tough to meet and even attempting to create a character with the kind of range of skills a MechWarrior would need to have outside the cockpit rapidly resulting in some falling-down-stupid character builds which were either marginal in a few key disciplines, but couldn't be trusted with the simplest tasks outside of their assigned combat role or useless jacks-of-no-trades with a wider range, but no depth in any given skill.

Now, looking back to RECON; I see a lot of paralelles to what the Fluff promised and a lot of what I want to see right out of the gate.

First of all; a quick to learn, easy to play system where a new guy dropping in to try it out is not buffaloed by the daunting prospect of either the mechanics or CC.

Secondly; rolling for attributes and skills and providing a minimum threshold easily provides characters who are naturally great in certain, fundamental ways. The costly buy-off and complex mechanics of the natural apptitude and improved attribute traits are eliminated. Now the trope of the character who really is naturally good at something right out of the gate is in reach.

Thirdly; the awkward connection between attributes and stats is gone. Since you don't invest in one attribute at the cost of another; no-one is cutting their throat with the skills later. In RECON; the "GOD ATTRIBUTE" is strength, where in high-RP games it is normally Intelligence or Charisma and in most shooting games it is Agility. RECON has strength play into a wide variety of secondary, derived stats; including your health, speed (oddly) and carrying capacity. I never liked games where you needed; for instance a high charisma to intimidate people.

Fourth, and something dearly missing from the game is a mechanic like RECON uses for weapons, applied to Mechs. I think it makes sense that a MechWarrior would be used to or have a preference for a given ride. I loved that in MW3E where they broke piloting into bipeds and quads.

Fifth and for the meat of a real RPG: Combat. Combat's basic mechanic in RECON is easy to work with; it hits the right balance between sufficiently deadly to be meaningful (especially because of how injuries handicap you), reasonable enough to keep any player from feeling futile in a firefight and with enough slack for a player to learn a lesson, without loosing a character from it.

But, and to be very clear here; this would TOTALLY change the BT: RPG experience. You could easily wind up with a Character who is very, very good at something (Like firing a 'Mech's weapons) right out of the gate. It stretches probability to imagine someone making a character as good a pilot *and* gunner as Kai was at his best right out of the gate, but you could always wind up with someone nearly as good in one of those things right of the bat.

A lot of what we're used to in a BT: RPG is unnecessary or counterproductive here; no need to manage age so closely for instance. You can handily make a character who is an old pirate right off the bat as easily as an 18-year old hayseed fresh of the AgroMech. A lot of what we are used to having rules for would be reduced to roleplaying.

I'm interested to hear what people think.

Thanks for your time.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Daryk

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #1 on: 21 March 2019, 18:11:45 »
Given my other posts around here, you probably know what I'm going to say.  I like AToW's character creation.  To me, it generates characters that are well rounded, and grow organically out of their backgrounds.  It is entirely possible to make characters very good at one or two things "right out of the gate".  I recommend checking out Takiro's Sohei thread as an example of what is possible.

CoreWatch

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #2 on: 21 March 2019, 20:47:46 »
Good evening gents,

I'll play the devil's advocate or more accurately the neutral ground interpreter on this topic as I see value in all game systems truthfully.

First off, let me say that I have no personal experience with the game system that you are referencing... RECON. And after a quick google search of it, I assume you're referring to the Palladium Deluxe Revised RECON... though feel free to correct me if I am wrong. However, for similar experiences, I have played and GM'd about 50 other game systems over a 35+ year period of time since I've started RPG's back in the early 1980s, even a few of the other Palladium games and Cthulhu. So I can at least marginally say that I can see the appeal to the simple d100 percentile that you're going for. Though I'm not overly convinced its the best foray for adaptation into Battletech/Mechwarrior without a lot of work into adapting it properly.

Now, obviously, this forum here is dedicated to the Battletech universe and more specifically this subforum is the AToW RPG. And most likely you're going to find that more folks here are going to lean toward the idea of using this particular game system, which arguably does have a more lengthy character creation system and definitely a heftier learning curve. Daryk is right in the fact that if done right and responsibly that it can create a fairly well-rounded character that you as a player or even a GM can and will garner a sense of accomplishment having created it assuming you learn the process and the system in its entirety properly as you go thru it. In addition, once you master it, you'll be able to quickly help others to accomplish the same process in time. Plus the side benefit of the system was that it integrates fairly well into the stompy Battletech part of the game fairly well too.

I guess the bottom line of any game system is that simply for any group of people who are coming together to have fun with that system as a whole. And some groups do not want to spend 1-4 hours making characters with tons of charts, home-brewed spreadsheets, and book chapters that require a near PhD level of math and reading to understand every aspect of the character creation process or at the very least to have that one person who does so in the group relies on him/her to be the know it all to have to spend all their time creating their players characters for them. Now I don't say any of this to be mean so please do not take this as such if it hits home on any level, I'm just being truthful. Some gamers just want simple, some want detail, some want finesse, and some want intrigue, and some require a bit of that all in a mix of an RPG that makes it easy for them to understand and play!

So having said that... I suggest that if you find that this RECON game or any other RPG out there fits the role of a functional substitute for the Mechwarrior element of your Battletech universe then I say to take advantage of it for you and your players.

After all, the golden rule is to have fun!

Cheers!
-CoreWatch

beachhead1985

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #3 on: 22 March 2019, 20:28:52 »
Given my other posts around here, you probably know what I'm going to say.  I like AToW's character creation.  To me, it generates characters that are well rounded, and grow organically out of their backgrounds.  It is entirely possible to make characters very good at one or two things "right out of the gate".  I recommend checking out Takiro's Sohei thread as an example of what is possible.

Truthfully; Kristen Dagley has a really great spreadsheet that makes the process just fly. But it lacks that walk up and play aspect. A cool thing here is that I've been able to invite people from work to drop in and have a realistic expectation of getting them playing in under an hour.

And I also admit that KD effectively rounded off my previous biases of making generally incompetant characters. Previously; I expected all MW characters to start off nearly useless. KD's system showed me that when wielded by someone who gets the ATOW system, you can indeed make someone who is competant in a spectrum of things or really good at a few.

What I am finding I love about RECON though is that it builds characters from the standpoint of; "This guy DID pass basic." They start with a selection of skills (as in MW3e-ATOW), but they have a good chance of being not laugh-out-loud useless at most of them. I find most RPGs drop the ball on this and turn out PCs who should never have been allowed out of mom's house, let alone on an adventure, expect for one or two things they do well. I am running into this HARD with my current DND game too.

So my PCs start out strong enough to literally pass muster and then odds are that each will have a couple of skills they are good to excellant at to get them through the game alive. That fits the feel that the fluff of BT has led me to come to expect.

 

Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

beachhead1985

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #4 on: 22 March 2019, 20:30:57 »
I assume you're referring to the Palladium Deluxe Revised RECON... though feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Yes and I seriously recommend it.

It needed a little tweaking to make it flow, but if you want to try it, I will happily send you all my stuff. It totally delivers on what it promises with, I note; some work by the GM. I did have to redo the weapons list from the ground up.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Daryk

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #5 on: 23 March 2019, 08:42:38 »
I'm glad KD's spreadsheet helped you see AToW can (and does, when wielded correctly) turn out characters who "can pass basic training" (and beyond).  Truly, AToW isn't THAT complex.  No, it's not "roll some dice and play" easy, but I think it has a good balance, and the life module system can really make well rounded characters.

CoreWatch

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #6 on: 24 March 2019, 01:10:38 »
Yes and I seriously recommend it.

It needed a little tweaking to make it flow, but if you want to try it, I will happily send you all my stuff. It totally delivers on what it promises with, I note; some work by the GM. I did have to redo the weapons list from the ground up.

If you could or would share access to your RECON stuff via Dropbox, Google Drive or some similar web hosting service that you use I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. While I can't say that I would use it as a replacement for the Mechwarrior system, as I and my players genuinely like this system now that we understand and know it. But then again I do know my players enjoy trying new systems with different genres as well and from time to time we try new things out, so I could give it a try in time.

No worries if you can't... the choice is yours.

Cheers!
-CoreWatch

beachhead1985

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #7 on: 28 March 2019, 23:05:59 »
If you could or would share access to your RECON stuff via Dropbox, Google Drive or some similar web hosting service that you use I wouldn't mind taking a look at it. While I can't say that I would use it as a replacement for the Mechwarrior system, as I and my players genuinely like this system now that we understand and know it. But then again I do know my players enjoy trying new systems with different genres as well and from time to time we try new things out, so I could give it a try in time.

No worries if you can't... the choice is yours.

Cheers!
-CoreWatch

Glad to share!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wj1xs7xbd8df20/RECON%20Character%20Creation%20Cheat%20Sheet.pptx?dl=0 CC Cheat Sheet
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycuflrafnfnazx5/RECON%20Cheat%20Sheets%20with%20borders.pptx?dl=0 GM's Cheat Sheets, with borders
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wp3rb4acn3z7d21/RECON%20Cheat%20Sheets.pptx?dl=0 Same W/O Borders
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4oo7wmq4g62j1d/Recon%28b%29.pdf?dl=0 Characters sheets found online 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/892tf8moypkslpj/Recon%28f%29.pdf?dl=0 Character Sheets Found Online 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6n96c52ok8y6sh1/recon-merc-character-sheet-bunkerclub55.pdf?dl=0 different Character Sheet optimized for Merc Campaigns
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hw28z9aj5hy7l11/Revised%20Weapons%20for%20RECON.xlsx?dl=0 Revised weapons. This also has some infor from my campaign and includes things like what is in the 196 Light Infantry Brigade's QM Depot and the conversion mechanic for the economic aspect i introduced to my players.


Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

CoreWatch

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #8 on: 31 March 2019, 21:57:34 »
Thanks!

I'll check it out and see if my group is interested in giving it a try sometime!

Cheers!
-CoreWatch

beachhead1985

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #9 on: 31 March 2019, 23:38:09 »
Enjoy!
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

guardiandashi

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #10 on: 26 June 2019, 00:34:33 »
if you are looking for a mostly % based game that's a bit more complicated than what the Recon sounds like, you may want to take a look at the RPG's that came out a few years ago for the warhammer 40k universe.

I skimmed the books and it looks like chars have several stats and skills that range from well it varies
in rogue trader for instance the stats basically are 2d10+25
and the example char had weapon skill, ballistic skill, strength, toughness, agility, intelligence, perception, willpower, and fellowship

anyway I am a fan of using either ATOW, or MechWarrior second edition but that's just my preferences.

I have played a number of palladium rpg's mostly rifts, robotech (or macross II) and some heroes unlimited, having access to ninjas and super spys can make a good addition to heroes unlimited.

as a kind of odd thing my favorite RPG system for star wars is the D6 one from West End Games I don't actually like the D20 system for high tech settings as IMO the skill system (especially in 3.0/3.5) is broken (yay rogues end up with skills galore, and everyone else gets hosed)
but I admit I tend to like playing characters that have a large skill selection

beachhead1985

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Re: Modeling Talent and natural Aptitude in a role-playing game
« Reply #11 on: 27 June 2019, 08:19:27 »
if you are looking for a mostly % based game that's a bit more complicated than what the Recon sounds like, you may want to take a look at the RPG's that came out a few years ago for the warhammer 40k universe.

I skimmed the books and it looks like chars have several stats and skills that range from well it varies
in rogue trader for instance the stats basically are 2d10+25
and the example char had weapon skill, ballistic skill, strength, toughness, agility, intelligence, perception, willpower, and fellowship

anyway I am a fan of using either ATOW, or MechWarrior second edition but that's just my preferences.

I have played a number of palladium rpg's mostly rifts, robotech (or macross II) and some heroes unlimited, having access to ninjas and super spys can make a good addition to heroes unlimited.

as a kind of odd thing my favorite RPG system for star wars is the D6 one from West End Games I don't actually like the D20 system for high tech settings as IMO the skill system (especially in 3.0/3.5) is broken (yay rogues end up with skills galore, and everyone else gets hosed)
but I admit I tend to like playing characters that have a large skill selection

You're talking about the games that...someone?...lostthe rights to continue making? Do I recall that right?

I agree D20 Star Wars was junk. Never played the D6 version. Did play the most recent RPG and quite liked it.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

 

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