Author Topic: Inventions regarding heat management  (Read 1547 times)

Garagegamer

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Inventions regarding heat management
« on: 06 April 2024, 17:00:25 »
So why is heat still a thing 600+ years after the invention of mechs?
I am really curious from a gameplay standpoint why heat management hasn't been cured in the game.
From a gameplay standpoint I think it would help newer players get into the game.

Paul

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #1 on: 06 April 2024, 17:09:14 »
So why is heat still a thing 600+ years after the invention of mechs?

Plot.

Quote
I am really curious from a gameplay standpoint why heat management hasn't been cured in the game.

Because the people in charge consider it a crucial part of the gameplay fun to have to manage heat.
I strongly agree with them, as do many players.


Quote
From a gameplay standpoint I think it would help newer players get into the game.

Then select 'Mechs that are heat neutral. Plenty of those.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #2 on: 06 April 2024, 17:25:33 »
It's a balancer, without heat pretty much everything would use energy, and there wouldn't be any design depth. If you dislike heat, use vehicles those are all heat-neutral feel free to Alpha each time.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #4 on: 06 April 2024, 18:28:37 »
Technology can’t overcome fundamental physical limits:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics#:~:text=The%20laws%20of%20thermodynamics%20are,thermodynamic%20systems%20in%20thermodynamic%20equilibrium

Pretty much this.  Battletech is a relatively "hard" sci fi universe so there's no magic heat-free materials.  Mostly.
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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #5 on: 06 April 2024, 19:36:45 »
And with DHS, heat management isn't cured but it's a hell of a lot easier.
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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #6 on: 06 April 2024, 19:44:49 »
And with DHS, heat management isn't cured but it's a hell of a lot easier.

And then you add in Coolant Pods  :smilie_happy_thumbup:


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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #8 on: 06 April 2024, 22:00:21 »
over all, heat management is part of the game, it's a limiter on mechs, and the advent of double heat sinks proves that if the inner sphere ever developed tech that reduced the heat of weapons, they'd just put more weapons on.
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DevianID

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #9 on: 07 April 2024, 01:31:07 »
over all, heat management is part of the game, it's a limiter on mechs, and the advent of double heat sinks proves that if the inner sphere ever developed tech that reduced the heat of weapons, they'd just put more weapons on.
The chemical laser slightly reduced heat compared to regular lasers, and the blackhawk/nova mounts 12 of them.  The IS, with all the medium laser spam Komodos, Crusaders, Thuderbolts, Hunchbacks, Gauntlets, ect would absolutely go nuts with them after seeing the new Nova shoot once at -1 heat per laser.

BrianDavion

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #10 on: 07 April 2024, 04:22:22 »
The chemical laser slightly reduced heat compared to regular lasers, and the blackhawk/nova mounts 12 of them.  The IS, with all the medium laser spam Komodos, Crusaders, Thuderbolts, Hunchbacks, Gauntlets, ect would absolutely go nuts with them after seeing the new Nova shoot once at -1 heat per laser.

sure but the chem laser requires ammo instead. a chem laser is basicly a short range AC 5.
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Aotrs Commander

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #11 on: 07 April 2024, 07:35:27 »
To "cure" heat, you would have to completely rewrite BattleTech entirely from the ground up. Firstly, the immediate problem is that it would that require you to essentially re-write all the lore, which has that conceit built-in, or if you (onl" introsuce it in the post IllClan timeline, you obivate everything before that future date when you decide heat has been "fixed" (which amounts to the same thing).

But let's ignore that massive gaping problem for a moment and just look at the mechanical situation.

Every BattleMech would have to be re-designed.

Without the check of heat, all mechs would tend towards max armour and the optimum energy weapons; expect to see much more emphasis to go the Blackhawk/ Swayback route or the much-maligned Hellstar route. (As both mechanically and in terms of in-universe logic, otherwise is deliberately nerfing yourself and militaries aren't that stupid that consistently); without the limitations of heat, LRMs would be literally the only ammunition dependant weapon that would be worth producing, only because they are capable of engageing outside direct-of-sight. The guass rifle would be instantly obsolete, as you can mount two ER PPCs for less tonnage and space (on either tech base). Even AC 20s, too; why bother with 5 extra damage to one location, when for less tonnage and far less space you can have +50% damage overall? And even heavy Guass Rifles get replaced by three ER PPCs instead.

The Hellstar, from being the best heat-neutral ER PPC platform, would be A Good Starting Point. (Take off twenty double heat sinks, that's another three ER PPCs right there...)

So, what do you do instead? You could say "vehicles are heat-neutral, so that's fine..." Except they aren't. Vehicles are explictly REQUIRED to mount enough heatsinks to be heat neutral (or have power amplifiers or both, I forget which), solely because the conciet of the game was to have them in a supporting role and thus explictly NOT to have the added complexity of them having a heatscale too. (There's no earthly reason aside from that why vehicles couldn't be given a heatscale and that option. Hell, at one point, I literally made some house rules to that effect that to mechanically treat them as equals, which was extensive as simply the effort to kludge-up record sheets in the mid-90s without a computer, armed only with photocopies, scissors, tipex and pritt-stick...)

But if you implemented that, it begs the question of why not just use the already-existing heat-neutral mechs or make your own variants for when you are introducing new players or when playing yourself. (I mean, for that matter, literally the first thing I did after getting my boxed set was start making my own Clan homebrew mechs (parts then played by LEGO spacemen) deilberately alpha-capable...) That is by far the easiest solution to the stated problem of the presumably localised problem of "I have new players that can't manage the heat system." (Since a lot of new players coming to the game will be coming from the computer games and I assume are expecting heat management...)

Okay, so that solution is probably not worth doing, then; what if instead you say "well, instead you make power plants produce an energy rating and make energy weapons have a power draw as a balance instead." But... How it that different from the heat system, fundementally?

By the time you have answered the question of "but what if I want to turn these guns off to shoot these other guns" and "but what happens when I try to plug everything in at once anyway" and have replaced the heat scale with the "power drain" scale when the powercore shuts down because you pushed it too hard rather than overheated, you will have gotten back 90% of the heat system anyway at the loss of some of the unique BattleTech flavor anyway.

And there's the rub. If you take away heat management, you have lost some of the critical flavour for BattleTech - as both a fictional universe AND as a set of rules. You would have Age-of-Sigmar'd BattleTech's fanbase and, if the recent survey is any inidication, tweaked off a significant portion of the fanbase.

(Let's be real - CGL is never going to even look in the direction of these solutions anyway, for the obvious reasons. Heat is here to stay in BattleTech, whether or not any particular player's feeling towards it.)

I'll be honest, though, I feel like taking away the heat management aspect from BattleTech is like taking the critical hit table away from Rolemaster; it's a not insignificant part of why you play the rules in the first place. BattleTech as a set of rules sits in an odd position. The base rules are rather dated (flip-side - they also haven't changed significantly in 40 years). The heat system adds another, is fairly small, tactical decison making level, but one that is, to my knowledge, pretty unique. (But if someone doesn't find that compelling personally, that's fine; not every set of rules has to cater to everyone.) The supplementary rules material makes BT much more fleshed-out than most other wargames rules and considers a lot of aspects that other rules don't, like dead ground (which to my knowledge, I can only think of Maneouvre Group which also considers that); but those are exactly the sort of rules you WON'T be using with new players, which was one of the conceits for getting rid of heat.

So by the time you have stripped away the heat management system (making a system which has less interesting decisions to make, and decisions, not dice-rolls, are what makes a good set of rules) and are ignoring the ancillary areas, you are left with a fairly mediocre set of rules which is out-performed by newer sets of rules. And what you have left is not really BattleTech.

If it not for the flavour I wouldn't play BattleTech myself (and in fact, when I'm not using my mechs I don't; hell, even when I do play BT, I've butchered a lot of the base engine rules with pasted-on bits of Maneouvre Group, as no set of rules has ever survived contact with me without moderate to extreme houserules).

So one might beg the question, at that point, as to whether it would not be better to just use a different set of rules to start with for those toys, rather than try removing a fundemental core aspects of the BattleTech rules and trying to fill-in the cracks. (As not even GW have yet managed the feat of sending people round your house to punish you for using their figures in not the proscribed fashion, though they do seem to be working up to it.) I couldn't personally recommend any sets of mecha-orientated rules from the recent time, I'm afraid (hybridisation aside, regular Sci-Fi Maneouvre Group is definitiely NOT that as walkers tend to suffer from being too tall at half the relative size of BattleMechs!). I presume One Page Rules may have something, I suppose, but I am afraid I am definitively put off by any set of rules which claims to be that short.

(To be precisely clear, this last paragraph is absolutely not me saying "Garagegamer go play some other game," I'm just trying to follow the logicial ramifications of removing heat from BattleTech,  I'm trying to get at that at the point the theorhetical person has changed BattleTech from being BattleTech, they might as well have changed to a not-BattleTech set of rules. I mean, if someone really hated the heat system that much it was a deal-breaker for them, that would be an option, certainly, but I didn't get that impression from the OP.)

Paul

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #12 on: 07 April 2024, 09:02:56 »
To "cure" heat, you would have to completely rewrite BattleTech entirely from the ground up.

No, you just need a new piece of equipment. Triple strength heat sinks. Quad strength. Whatever. Heat management is easy to solve from a rules perspective.
The issue is entirely about whether you *ought* to solve the heat problem.

Also, the OP isn't talking about retconning heat out of the universe, he's asking why tech hasnt been developed that does that.

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Aotrs Commander

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #13 on: 07 April 2024, 12:47:01 »
No, you just need a new piece of equipment. Triple strength heat sinks. Quad strength. Whatever. Heat management is easy to solve from a rules perspective.
The issue is entirely about whether you *ought* to solve the heat problem.

That would arguably be worse, since it would largely get you the bulk of the problems with removing it entirely (triple heat singles reduce a heat neutral ER PPC to 11 tons, less than a gauss rifle, meaning that for Clantech at least they are still redundant and by the time you add quad heat sinks, a CLAN guass rifle is more tonnage (with ammo and a single ton's worth of heat snks to be heat-neutral) than it is to have a heat-neutral IS ER PPC and its capacitor (7+1+5 => tons). The Hellstar still gets more ER PPCs. And then you get the mess of trying to work out what kind of crit slots such a system would have, as you could run the risk of making them so bulky that they would be laregly worthless except for the inside engine ones... It would still be a big mess, mayeb not AS bad as obiviating heat entirely, but you still have the heat system in place largely vestigially, which is a worse place for the rules to be.

BT's weapon factors were able to accept DHS sinks (and some people are still very much against those), but a jump further than that and the numbers do start to break down more fundementally, as noted.

So not really, no, there is not a "simple" solution than doesn't fundementally chance the game balance; not without having to likewise make a drastic change to the way the weapons themselves are balanced.

(That's as far as I'm going to look into the numbers mechanics, because not the fan-rules board and I'm not going to even try to make something I think it unworkable workable.)

Also, the OP isn't talking about retconning heat out of the universe, he's asking why tech hasnt been developed that does that.

They mentioned it in regards to the game (not solely just the lore) in regards to making purportedly easier to onboard new player if heat mechanics were "cured", so I addressed that part; in that there are planety of purely game-mechanical reasons to answer that heat isn't a problem that needs to be (or even could be at all easily) "solved."

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #14 on: 07 April 2024, 12:52:51 »
I've wondered if it isn't easier to think of "heat" as power requirements. Moving and firing weapons requires power. A 'Mech's engine generates ten "power units" per turn. You can add more power amplifiers for on ton on crit, or a double strength version for more crits. Using more power than you generate results in poorer performance for you 'Mech in subsequent turns. It's the same thing with a different name.

Wolf72

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #15 on: 07 April 2024, 15:00:53 »
burning brain cells here, but isn't that like SFB? ... you had a certain amount of warp(?) points to use towards, weapons, shields, movement, etc.
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JoeJones

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #16 on: 07 April 2024, 15:33:06 »
burning brain cells here, but isn't that like SFB? ... you had a certain amount of warp(?) points to use towards, weapons, shields, movement, etc.

SFB’s Energy Allocation Form is like the unholy offspring of Battletech’s heat system and tax forms. SFB was the first (and only, so far) wargame I’ve played where a calculator was recommended, if not vital, to get through a turn.

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #17 on: 07 April 2024, 18:03:43 »
I mean, the laws of physics mean "heat" as a rule is never fully solved. As soon as you invent heat control systems that can control the heat of existing weapons, someone will say "why not build a cannon that fires SUNS at each other, literally!" and you're right back to needing eighteen of your quintuple heat sinks to fire one main weapon

Wolf72

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #18 on: 07 April 2024, 20:30:12 »
SFB’s Energy Allocation Form is like the unholy offspring of Battletech’s heat system and tax forms. SFB was the first (and only, so far) wargame I’ve played where a calculator was recommended, if not vital, to get through a turn.

I played with my brother in the mid 90's.  Did not need a calculator (fairly sure, but that was a while ago), we played one ship each with 3-4 players.  BUT pretty sure we only used shields, movement, weapons, and drones.  I know we used a grease pencil to mark off damage and what not.

Regardless, there was some mental math stamina required there.
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Paul

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #19 on: 07 April 2024, 21:08:46 »
And then you get the mess of trying to work out what kind of crit slots such a system would have, as you could run the risk of making them so bulky that they would be laregly worthless except for the inside engine ones... It would still be a big mess, mayeb not AS bad as obiviating heat entirely, but you still have the heat system in place largely vestigially, which is a worse place for the rules to be.

I think you're rather missing the point I'm trying to make.
<edit: Or I'm totally missing your point.

You stated that you'd have to rewrite BT from the ground up to cure heat.
My position is that if it was decided to 'cure' heat starting at some point in the storyline, you simply make some gear that's so good that heat stops being a gameplay element. If the 10 heatsinks you start with sink 30, 40, 10,000,000 heat, whatever the magical number is, once you decide you want them to work that way, they do. That's how rules work. No "rewrites from the ground up" needed.

Now, I think that would be a really bad decision, but it's absolutely trivial to achieve. The OP wanted to know why this wasn't done yet.


Quote
there is not a "simple" solution than doesn't fundementally chance the game balance; not without having to likewise make a drastic change to the way the weapons themselves are balanced.

Sure. But that's not the question. If you wanted to remove heat from the equation, you simply remove it. Piece of cake.
On a meta level, it means whole classes of weapons stop being optimal to install in pretty much any circumstance. That's true every time there's a new disruptive tech. That wasn't the question.

« Last Edit: 07 April 2024, 22:00:40 by Paul »
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RifleMech

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2024, 06:42:48 »
If heat were to be removed, ballistic weapons would need compensation.  The only way I can think of is for them to fire more rapidly than energy weapons. The drawback is that they run out of ammo faster, until ammo gets improved allowing for more shots per ton.

I can see Triple and Quad Heat Sinks and they would be as game changing as DHS were. Their bulkiness would limit what could use them but they'd still be big game changers. Ballistics would also need to be improved at the same time to keep things balanced.

Also, I have often wondered why vehicles don't use the heat scale, even optionally. We do have fluff about vehicles having heat issues. We even have art for the heat suits Demolisher crews wear. An optional rule to allow us to play those problems out on the table top shouldn't be a big problem.

Garagegamer

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #21 on: 08 April 2024, 09:09:24 »
I think you're rather missing the point I'm trying to make.
<edit: Or I'm totally missing your point.

You stated that you'd have to rewrite BT from the ground up to cure heat.
My position is that if it was decided to 'cure' heat starting at some point in the storyline, you simply make some gear that's so good that heat stops being a gameplay element. If the 10 heatsinks you start with sink 30, 40, 10,000,000 heat, whatever the magical number is, once you decide you want them to work that way, they do. That's how rules work. No "rewrites from the ground up" needed.

Now, I think that would be a really bad decision, but it's absolutely trivial to achieve. The OP wanted to know why this wasn't done yet.


Sure. But that's not the question. If you wanted to remove heat from the equation, you simply remove it. Piece of cake.
On a meta level, it means whole classes of weapons stop being optimal to install in pretty much any circumstance. That's true every time there's a new disruptive tech. That wasn't the question.

Yeah pretty much from my perspective I'm going to introduce that the ilclan era fixes heat somehow. I like the idea that energy henceforth becomes the limiter. I mean for teaching people and the lore and the also factor that technology generally improves I'd say 600 years is a perfect number to say hey these mechs are like no heat but you loose 20% of tonnage or something to just remove it from the game.

So in the future
What if we were like this engine has x many watts? And the engine b has so many watts? If they made the game around energy wouldn't that make it more fun to customize mechs and give people more freedom?

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #22 on: 08 April 2024, 09:19:01 »
Heat management is and will continue to be a big damn problem in space operations.

Our spacecraft now have exposed radiators which are critical to operation, and can you even imagine the difficulties that will cause when space combat becomes a thing, especially if energy weapons are used.  As an aside, waste heat is another reason among many why stealth in space is impossible, just life support running is a heat problem.

So actually not, heat is a big damn problem in the real world, and 600 years in the future won't magically solve that.  Because everything worth doing causes waste heat.

Paul

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #23 on: 08 April 2024, 09:47:20 »
Yeah pretty much from my perspective I'm going to introduce that the ilclan era fixes heat somehow. I like the idea that energy henceforth becomes the limiter. I mean for teaching people and the lore and the also factor that technology generally improves I'd say 600 years is a perfect number to say hey these mechs are like no heat but you loose 20% of tonnage or something to just remove it from the game.

So in the future
What if we were like this engine has x many watts? And the engine b has so many watts? If they made the game around energy wouldn't that make it more fun to customize mechs and give people more freedom?

I think all of that goes deep in to custom rules territory, which generally gets threads moved to the forum for those.

I think as a concept, what you're pursuing will drastically change the game, and personally, not for the better.
But if you and your group like this stuff, that's a lot more important than what some guy on a forum has to say about it.

Regarding the 600 years: a common part of the BT story is that there *hasn't* been forward progress. The Succession Wars *regressed* things heavily, such that older was usually better. We've seen a lot of advancement in the last 100 game years, but all of that basically got us back to where the SL was, plus some actual advances. It's possible the new era can be used for more advancement, it could also be used to encourage more regression. We will have to see what happens.
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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #24 on: 08 April 2024, 11:40:04 »
Yeah pretty much from my perspective I'm going to introduce that the ilclan era fixes heat somehow. I like the idea that energy henceforth becomes the limiter. I mean for teaching people and the lore and the also factor that technology generally improves I'd say 600 years is a perfect number to say hey these mechs are like no heat but you loose 20% of tonnage or something to just remove it from the game.

So in the future
What if we were like this engine has x many watts? And the engine b has so many watts? If they made the game around energy wouldn't that make it more fun to customize mechs and give people more freedom?

So what's the penalty for going over? Heat is fun in part because you can choose to ignore it and do way more damage in a burst in exchange for taking penalties in the future. Or you might unexpectedly take an engine crit or break some heat sinks and now your perfect heat curve has gone all pear-shaped. Replacing that with an engine that can only supply so much energy just means that you can only shoot X guns. It's like running a heat-neutral flashbulb but somehow even more boring than what is already the lamest thing in the game.


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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #25 on: 08 April 2024, 11:53:39 »
And Radical Heat Sinks

The next step will be Totally Radical Heat Sinks.
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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #26 on: 08 April 2024, 17:14:21 »
burning brain cells here, but isn't that like SFB? ... you had a certain amount of warp(?) points to use towards, weapons, shields, movement, etc.
SFB’s Energy Allocation Form is like the unholy offspring of Battletech’s heat system and tax forms. SFB was the first (and only, so far) wargame I’ve played where a calculator was recommended, if not vital, to get through a turn.
I played with my brother in the mid 90's.  Did not need a calculator (fairly sure, but that was a while ago), we played one ship each with 3-4 players.  BUT pretty sure we only used shields, movement, weapons, and drones.  I know we used a grease pencil to mark off damage and what not.

Regardless, there was some mental math stamina required there.

The concept of Energy Allocation is also present in Federation Commander, where it is significantly streamlined relative to what is required over in Star Fleet Battles. For example: FC has no difference between warp and impulse power, so certain weapons which require warp power to arm in SFB (such as photon torpedoes) can be armed from any source in FC.

But in terms of technology levels, there are significant differences in terms of what you can do with such power - be it in SFB or in FC.

Non-Tactical Warp (Impulse-only) ships are severely limited in terms of movement at the "standard" hex scale used for both SFB and FC, and in terms of what kind of "sub-light" weapons and system they can equip.

In the Early Years of Tactical Warp Drive, the "W-" and "Y-era" ships had certain speed caps, as well as limits on how much power they could put into their "warp-class" heavy weapons (not least since there were no overloads).

"Modern" ships - such as the Federation CA and the Klingon D7 - are much more flexible by comparison.

While in the era of first-generation X-ships, it would seem at first glance that the added warp engine power would make the biggest difference. Yet one should not overlook the ability of X-batteries to store three points of power, granting X1-ships far more reserve power than their non-X counterparts. But still, they do need to keep track of their energy allocation, not least since even X-batteries (in SFB) cannot hold warp power from one turn to the next.

Notably, there are cases where certain ships cannot be upgraded further than they were historically. For example: most dreadnoughts and other larger warships cannot be built or converted into first-generation X-ships.

-----

Bringing things back to this universe: just as internal combustion engine-powered IndustrialMechs fall short of fusion-powered RetroTech BattleMechs, and how those in turn are outclassed even by the onset of BAR 10 armour, so too is there a shift in dynamics when 'Mechs of each era are pitted against one another. But they all fall into the same underlying game mechanisms, along with more advanced technologies of later eras.

So the question might be: what would a new tier of BattleTechnology look like, were it to fit within the confines of both Total Warfare and Alpha Strike levels of play - to include factoring in some kind of heat dynamic?

I'm wary of speculating on such designs in this thread, lest it trigger an Exodus to the Fan Designs sub-board. But I do wonder if it might require such 'Mechs to be designed and built from the ground up. As in, whatever systems they were to be equipped with - weapons, armour, engines, heat sinks, control interfaces, etc. - could not be retrofitted to older units. Or, for a game which goes out of its way to keep certain older designs viable through multiple Eras of play, might that in and of itself be a step too far?

(On a side note: I wonder if this was something we might have seen in the old tme-jump-to-3250 proposal, or if even that new tech was intended to be installable on older designs.)
« Last Edit: 08 April 2024, 17:18:44 by Nerroth »

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #27 on: 09 April 2024, 08:26:41 »
The next tier of Battletech tech is probably targeting and electronics.

Something that can hit the turret of a tank (deliberately missing the hull) at a kilometer can hit the head of a mech at a kilometer.

This will reduce the primary advantage of a mech - ablative hit locations - and warrant the "piling on of armor into critical locations and dispensing with unnecessary bulk".

This will make combat vehicles more powerful than Mechs (due to that exact ability), but will do nothing to mitigate their logistics requirements, making Mechs still the offensive rading and orbital drop attackers extraordinare, but in a conventional situation, artillery and armor will be stronger. Infantry, too, will be stronger - being able to put a hypothetical Arrow V into a 'mech's head with a well-aimed TAG is a frightening thought.

IMHO if you improved targeting you would show the need for combined arms, with mechs a vital part of a larger force.

VanVelding

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #28 on: 09 April 2024, 13:30:42 »
It seems to be a conflation of the question about the reality of heat management ("600+ years") with the in-game purpose and disadvantages of it ("gameplay standpoint").

The Reality of Military Heat Management
In universe, it is a little curious. We don't really think of modern tanks, ships, or jets as having to manage heat buildup during active combat as a direct result of weapons fire and general machine performance.

Now that we're tackling about it though, I would be surprised if it wasn't an issue on modern, mechanized battlefields. Ballistic weapons are hot. Engines are hot. Engine rooms are definitely hot. Human bodies are also kind of warm. Seal all that heat up in armor and hull plating you have to deal with it.

Ships (and presumably planes) get some help by having a nice, fluid medium passing at a good clip, but something like a battlemech moving fairly slowly on land and carrying thermodynamic inefficiencies from very powerful, future equipment could very reasonably have that issue.

But the technological paradigm of the future can hold multitudes, especially if we're already using battlemechs. It's reasonable that advances in thermal efficiency or regenerative heat or heat dissipation could mitigate that issue.

HARM to Table
In game, heat is a resource. Well, coolness is a resource. Like movement points, ammunition, and armor, a player uses as much of it as they can as wisely as they can. Do you overheat in the chance of doing a little more damage because your to-hit numbers are good this turn? Do you take a +1 to your AMM to get 3 more MP? Do you risk your armor by charging your Charger?

The heat system comes with a built-in risk versus reward mechanic, which makes it a bit different from other resources, but the point of a game system with different resources is that each of them spends differently. In that respect, the heat system gives players additional, unique choices to make during play and is good.

And yes, an energy system would work very similarly.

If the heat system doesn't work for your new players, then don't use it. Simple as. Don't expect BV to work for you, but have some fun. Try Alpha Strike if it's a general complexity issue.
Co-host of 17 to 01 and The Beige and The Bold. I also have a dusty old blog about whatever comes to mind vanvelding.blogspot.

Wolf72

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #29 on: 09 April 2024, 15:30:32 »
...
In universe, it is a little curious. We don't really think of modern tanks, ships, or jets as having to manage heat buildup during active combat as a direct result of weapons fire and general machine performance.
...

I would say that we have developed some inherent heat dissipation abilities.  Fans near engines/air cooled, internal air flow, water cooling, a radiator (aka heat sink).  The level of energy BTU (no relation to that other BTU) is a lot more than modern day stuff.

I also thought that mech's internal myomers  built up heat easily, especially with internal weapon systems, so all that musculature and mobility (even you Urbie) comes at a significant cost.
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Aotrs Commander

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #30 on: 09 April 2024, 16:00:22 »
BT armour has to be designed to RESIST heat, since it's ablative and has to be proof against energy weapons that deliver heat. And thermodynamics don't really let you have it both ways, so in order to keep the lasers from easily melting through the armour, the armour isn't going let heat out the other way.

Is there an arguement that there ought to be a minor factor that as you punch more holes in a mech and blow bits off, it might cool easier? Sure, but a) that would be insanely complex and b) it could easily be such a comparitively small value that is doesn't matter. (Ditto the reverse for residualy heat from getting pummellled by repeated PPC fire ought to make it harder to shed heat.) Does that arguement break down a birt when you consider fire still heats mechs and that water doesn't evaporate a lot when a hot mech stands in it? Yeah, little bit, but you're then getting to the point of balancing a realistic thermodynamic situation without unknown technology or having an actually playable game.

As my Dad (a former aerospace engineer who did mathmatical modelling for a living) says; all simulations are wrong; some simulations are useful.

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #31 on: 10 April 2024, 06:47:29 »
Modern military equipment does absolutely have heat problems - anyone with a computer with a GFX processor who plays high-end games will tell you that electronics generate huge amounts of heat.

There are even computer brands that have notoriously bad heat management in their electronics (Dell, not to name names) for certain (not all!) products.

For this reason, rooms dedicated to electronic systems are often cooled past what is comfortable for humans - I wear a sweater in my building's server room or else I am shivering, and I *like* the cold.

General308

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2024, 15:53:27 »
Plot.

Because the people in charge consider it a crucial part of the gameplay fun to have to manage heat.
I strongly agree with them, as do many players.


Then select 'Mechs that are heat neutral. Plenty of those.

I think you summed it up perfectly.       And like  you said if you don't want to deal with Heat their are plenty of  Heat neutral mechs.


General308

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #33 on: 11 April 2024, 15:59:51 »
So why is heat still a thing 600+ years after the invention of mechs?
I am really curious from a gameplay standpoint why heat management hasn't been cured in the game.
From a gameplay standpoint I think it would help newer players get into the game.


Here is a question for you why cure it?    Your only reason given is you seem to think newer players are not able to learn the rule for heat.   Why would that be a problem for anyone to learn?   Why would you want to remove game balance?   Why would you not just pick heat nuteral designs if dealing with heat is hard for you?

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #34 on: 12 April 2024, 12:23:22 »
I think OP is borrowing the idea from video games, where maximum engine power is a common limiting factor. In Front Mission you start out with access to the worst parts, and over the course of the story, you get better and better stuff until you are running around in Zenith Mk V chassis with ten times the health and 20 times the reactor output as the junker you started in. That's good for a video game because those are built around a progression track. The point of BT isn't "start out with the worst equipment and play until you have the best equipment then kill the final boss" though, so it doesn't fit. It's not a game with a single linear experience that you gain power steadily while playing.


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BrianDavion

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #35 on: 12 April 2024, 15:35:58 »
I think OP is borrowing the idea from video games, where maximum engine power is a common limiting factor. In Front Mission you start out with access to the worst parts, and over the course of the story, you get better and better stuff until you are running around in Zenith Mk V chassis with ten times the health and 20 times the reactor output as the junker you started in. That's good for a video game because those are built around a progression track. The point of BT isn't "start out with the worst equipment and play until you have the best equipment then kill the final boss" though, so it doesn't fit. It's not a game with a single linear experience that you gain power steadily while playing.

Indeed, and to a degree it CAN be, in that you can start out in a campaign in a basic stinger or wasp and slowly work your way up, but the tech progression from say.... a introtech STG-3R to a  100 ton clan tech customized  iron cheetah (just to use one of the latest 100 ton mechs we've gotten) can be pretty big. but battletech is also a war game so balancing factors are needed for those NOT playing a campaign play
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VanVelding

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #36 on: 12 April 2024, 21:08:52 »
I think OP is borrowing the idea from video games...It's not a game with a single linear experience that you gain power steadily while playing.
You can imagine OP is using a concept which doesn't hold up to examination, but that sounds a lot like a straw man argument.

OP was straightforward about how they feel that heat was a technologically solvable problem and that it was a hurdle to new players they experience when teaching new players.

The first is a reasonable argument which the equally-reasonable world of Battletech has eschewed.

The second is an observed obstacle to introducing new people to the game.

OP is asking questions about a reasonable shift in the technological paradigm and challenges they face in getting new players into the game. Is the answer to that "OP probably plays too many power fantasy video games"?

Hint: it isn't
Co-host of 17 to 01 and The Beige and The Bold. I also have a dusty old blog about whatever comes to mind vanvelding.blogspot.

RifleMech

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #37 on: 13 April 2024, 16:32:28 »
Heat is a balance thing like armor vs guns. Bigger guns results in better/more armor which results in bigger guns and so on. It's the same with heat. Better heat sinks results in higher heat generating weapons. We've seen that with SLDF and Clan tech. I don't see why that wouldn't continue with triple and quad heat sinks or whatever.

As for playing, as others have said, the OP should use heat neutral designs until the new players get more experience. If they just skip heat flashbulbs end up completely dominating everything. That'll take away from the fun.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #38 on: 15 April 2024, 12:45:15 »
You can imagine OP is using a concept which doesn't hold up to examination, but that sounds a lot like a straw man argument.

OP was straightforward about how they feel that heat was a technologically solvable problem and that it was a hurdle to new players they experience when teaching new players.

The first is a reasonable argument which the equally-reasonable world of Battletech has eschewed.

The second is an observed obstacle to introducing new people to the game.

OP is asking questions about a reasonable shift in the technological paradigm and challenges they face in getting new players into the game. Is the answer to that "OP probably plays too many power fantasy video games"?

Hint: it isn't

Wow, you sure are straw manning hard by attaching moral judgments to my words there. Welcome to ignore.


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General308

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #39 on: 15 April 2024, 14:43:07 »
Wow, you sure are straw manning hard by attaching moral judgments to my words there. Welcome to ignore.


In fairness to him you are not really replying or answering peoples questions to you.  Which kind of creates a situation were people have to make their own judgement of were you are coming from.

Moonsword

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Re: Inventions regarding heat management
« Reply #40 on: 15 April 2024, 15:16:45 »
Enjoy your thread lock for moderator review, and I hope the enforced cooling off improves your heat management.