Author Topic: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like  (Read 1919 times)

Thunderbolt

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what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« on: 07 September 2019, 09:51:12 »
Futurists forecast the mid-term future (+centuries) of earth civilization to be something like the Expanse, with societies & economies spreading throughout the Solar system (Kardashev-I).  Gradually (+millennia), dispersed settlements & industrial sites will accumulate until Sol is surrounded by a Dyson Swarm (Kardashev-II):



With essentially 100% of Sol's power output harvested, the only room for continued growth would be in other star systems.  The Dyson Swarm, essentially a space-worthy fleet of long-term sustainable mobile space habitats, would reduplicate itself... and the copies would migrate en masse to some suitable second star system.

If so, actual interstellar space-travel is not undertaken by lone explorer craft, but by massed "Zentraedi fleets" of specialized Dyson Swarm vessels ("Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria, Magellan's fleet, Vespucci's fleet, and everyone else's too"):



Such mobile Dyson Swarm super-armadas would arrive in the target destination system like "locusts descending on all Egypt at once" (and by "locust" we mean "Locust CV" aerodyne class worldship larger than an aircraft carrier), appropriately positioning pre-specialized units designed for processing rocky terrestrial inner system worlds, others for siphoning hydrogen fuel from gas giants in mid system, still others for electrolyzing icy outer system objects, all essentially simultaneously throughout the star system.



Plausibly, there would initially be some "rest, refit, repair" phase immediately after the enormous interstellar undertaking.  But with surprising swiftness, the Swarm would quickly proceed to processing system material, and constructing the next wave of colony craft.

If so, once a civilization reaches K-II level, they possess the equivalent of mobile Dyson Swarms, which can completely enshroud target destination star systems immediately upon arrival.  Such that Visited star systems would immediately "go dark & drop off the radar" without any of the gradual dimming (theoretically) detectable in the original home star system, on the progression from K-I to K-II, ages & eons before.

If you don't detect an emerging K-I on its way to K-II, in its original needle-in-a-cosmic-hay-stack system, thereafter your only evidence would be galactic lights "shutting down like an EMP knocked out the power grid".

Offer that inter-galactic colonization would involve numerous such Dyson Swarms, which would plausibly make "galaxy fall" somewhere in the outer reaches and start "chewing their way inwards"

Daryk

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #1 on: 07 September 2019, 10:15:30 »
Interesting idea!  Transiting from star to star would require extreme patience, not to mention supplies...

Ogra_Chief

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #2 on: 07 September 2019, 10:44:33 »
So basically Tyranids, of the Human variety. I like it.... nom nom nomm.  :thumbsup:
BattleTech @CGL_BattleTech · Jul 17
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Matti

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #3 on: 07 September 2019, 10:51:48 »
Some interesting ideas for novels and stuff there. Still would need some recon and exploration before swarm can even depart.
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Sartris

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #4 on: 07 September 2019, 11:04:28 »
thanks, it's terrifying!

Some interesting ideas for novels and stuff there. Still would need some recon and exploration before swarm can even depart.

there's recon and then there's recon

i imagine a civilization capable of such a system would be able to probe potential targets with relative ease

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Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #5 on: 07 September 2019, 11:15:55 »
Interesting idea!  Transiting from star to star would require extreme patience, not to mention supplies...
safety in numbers ?

yes, does seem reasonable that the armada would transit on some sort of nominal power level, by the time you're a K-II and span an entire system, you have millennia or more of astrographical records, you would know essentially exactly where the nearby star system was, is, and will by the time of your arrival, and you'd know how to "lead the receiver" and deliver your fleet right to the correct future system location

doesn't seem like lots of midcourse corrections would be required... would you be accelerating the entire time?

Maybe you actually would send trailblazers ahead, to reach & enter the destination system, and set up some sort of "decelerators" such that you could propel your fleet from your departure system, using departure system energy...

travel the fleet on ballistic trajectories...

and "catch" them with "reverse accelerators" set up in the destination system ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDR4AHYRmlk

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #6 on: 07 September 2019, 11:30:42 »
i'm an extreme amatuer in science so bear with me

would such a society be forced to modularize itself? by my understanding of relativity accelerating to high speeds basically would separate such a culture into a bizarre mix of time pockets. sort of a travelling caravan of world-ships that would quickly drop out of cultural sync with each other very quickly (or slowly depending on where you're standing).

depending on the acceleration, i could see entire segments of terrestrial fleet commands being completely dedicated to legacy missions that would pop out hundreds or thousands of years after launch from the perspective of those on the ground, preserving the linguistic and societal norms of the mission commanders. unless of course everything is automated or maintained by a skeleton crew that can't break off into its own interstellar roving dyson state

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Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #7 on: 07 September 2019, 11:33:36 »
Remote recon required, preceding pioneers probably?

---

Much more creative, yet does consider self-replicating space vessels, which could be sent on ahead to prep destination systems for human colonists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEUKRHGgAg

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #8 on: 07 September 2019, 11:38:03 »
i'm an extreme amatuer in science so bear with me

would such a society be forced to modularize itself? by my understanding of relativity accelerating to high speeds basically would separate such a culture into a bizarre mix of time pockets. sort of a travelling caravan of world-ships that would quickly drop out of cultural sync with each other very quickly (or slowly depending on where you're standing).

depending on the acceleration, i could see entire segments of terrestrial fleet commands being completely dedicated to legacy missions that would pop out hundreds or thousands of years after launch from the perspective of those on the ground, preserving the linguistic and societal norms of the mission commanders. unless of course everything is automated or maintained by a skeleton crew that can't break off into its own interstellar roving dyson state
well, I guess it depends how long the travel legs are, if it's just from system to proximate system 5-10 lyr distant, one hop even at lightspeed would only cause as many years of asynchrony?

Daryk

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #9 on: 07 September 2019, 11:39:31 »
Thunderbolt, it looks like an interesting video, but a warning that it's (the "interstellar highway" video, since you posted again TWICE since I started typing this... off to check that second video...) 25 minutes long would have been appreciated.  Also, where is the author from?  He seems to have an odd pronunciation of the letter "r".  I can't quite place it (it's definitely not Japanese, and the name suggests somewhere in Europe... it's also completely distracting me from the content at the moment).

Sartris already hit on the "accelerating the entire time" issue, but even aside from that, time dilation alone is going to create temporal separation of the various colonies (made even worse by successive generations).

Speaking of successive generations, the whole idea could ultimately link to the "panspermia" theory.  If all you're trying to do is spread "complex life", your energy requirements go WAY down...

Kidd

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #10 on: 07 September 2019, 11:52:06 »
Kardashev grade is off by 1

So in short, the answer to the Fermi paradox, is that the galaxy is being conquered by a swarm of invading ships which can form a more or less instantaneous Dyson sphere blocking observation of the invasion?

A tad farfetched without teleportation of some kind.

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once a civilization reaches K-II level, they possess the equivalent of mobile Dyson Swarms, which can completely enshroud target destination star systems immediately upon arrival.

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #11 on: 07 September 2019, 12:31:48 »
Thunderbolt, it looks like an interesting video, but a warning that it's (the "interstellar highway" video, since you posted again TWICE since I started typing this... off to check that second video...) 25 minutes long would have been appreciated.  Also, where is the author from?  He seems to have an odd pronunciation of the letter "r".  I can't quite place it (it's definitely not Japanese, and the name suggests somewhere in Europe... it's also completely distracting me from the content at the moment).

Sartris already hit on the "accelerating the entire time" issue, but even aside from that, time dilation alone is going to create temporal separation of the various colonies (made even worse by successive generations).

Speaking of successive generations, the whole idea could ultimately link to the "panspermia" theory.  If all you're trying to do is spread "complex life", your energy requirements go WAY down...
https://www.isaacarthur.net/

His name is Isaac Arthur, and he just sounds like that  :)

certainly cryogenic stasis for prolonged interstellar travel times could create significant asynchronies

time dilation would only occur if the trek took place at transluminal speeds, in which case the biggest discrepancy would be the light-travel-time of the journey -- the spacefarers experience negligible proper time, everyone else ages the light-travel-time they perceive the trekkers to take to the destination system.  If you could get to Proxima centauri at lightspeed, you'd experience no proper time en route, whilst everyone else would think a few years had elapsed

Daryk

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #12 on: 07 September 2019, 12:44:03 »
Interesting... the site says he's from Ohio.  I have to admit, I've never heard another American with that particular pronunciation of "r"...

Cultural discrepancies would certainly occur even without transluminal speeds.  The isolation is what does it.

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #13 on: 07 September 2019, 13:07:53 »
Interesting... the site says he's from Ohio.  I have to admit, I've never heard another American with that particular pronunciation of "r"...

Cultural discrepancies would certainly occur even without transluminal speeds.  The isolation is what does it.
kinda like the BTU w/ IS, Periphery, Clans et al

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #14 on: 07 September 2019, 13:09:45 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrWF4nOyC8

talks about derelict vessels, stations & planets

you can always crank up playback to 1.75x or even 2x and just churn through it

Daryk

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #15 on: 07 September 2019, 13:31:43 »
To your first reply: Exactly!

After listening to two of his videos all the way through, I can say they're definitely interesting, but man... the "r" thing is killing me.

Ogra_Chief

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #16 on: 07 September 2019, 13:55:39 »
I enjoy Isaac Arthur's content immensely, his earlier stuff is very grounded, he's a bit of a YouTube celeb now. So, his content has changed a bit, more 'what if's,' but still great to play in the background.
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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #17 on: 07 September 2019, 20:40:26 »
Or you could leave on your long trip only to arrive and find out your ancestors managed to get FTL travel working and beat you to the punch. Then what do you do?

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #18 on: 07 September 2019, 22:09:30 »
Or you could leave on your long trip only to arrive and find out your ancestors managed to get FTL travel working and beat you to the punch. Then what do you do?
make room for your cousins' quick arrival ?  :D

Thunderbolt

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #19 on: 07 September 2019, 22:23:08 »
Just a quick musing on "interstellar highways" and clearing out AU-wide lightyears-long debris-free space corridors between inhabited systems...

think it turns out you have to "doubly lead" your target star system.  In football, the speed of light is effectively infinite, so WYSIWYG, you know where your receiver is "now", so all you have to do is forecast their future position ("single lead throw", "receiver present to receiver future")

Over interstellar distances, what you see is what was once upon a time in the past ("receiver past"), forcing you to predict the present position ("receiver present") and then on top of that forecast their future position ("receiver future") where the destination system will be, when your fleet of "space sweepers" finishes boring its tunnel through the interstellar medium (ISM)

more like playing football, swimming pool "Marco Polo" style, the QB yells "Marco" with eyes closed, the receiver shouts "Polo", the QB eventually gets the echoed reply, from where the receiver was in the past ("receiver past")…

has to predict where the receiver is actually right now ("receiver present")…

and then forecast where they will be when the Hail Mary finally arrives ("receiver future")

have to "doubly lead" the destination system, from past position visible (currently) on the departure system sky, to predicted present position at time of fleet launch, to forecasted future position at time of fleet arrival

You would send your "space sweepers" to clear out a debris free tunnel through the ISM to the forecasted future position of the destination system, so you wouldn't run into any kind of Passengers situation

Ogra_Chief

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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #20 on: 07 September 2019, 22:30:55 »
Or you could leave on your long trip only to arrive and find out your ancestors managed to get FTL travel working and beat you to the punch. Then what do you do?

Fight the last battle, retire and make babies. Just like in 'The Forever War'. That book has great time dilation examples.
BattleTech @CGL_BattleTech · Jul 17
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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #21 on: 07 September 2019, 22:34:56 »
I always pictured an alien invasion looking a lot like an AC-130 vigorously attacking.
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Re: what an actual Alien invasion would (maybe) look like
« Reply #22 on: 14 September 2019, 13:44:37 »
Or you could leave on your long trip only to arrive and find out your ancestors managed to get FTL travel working and beat you to the punch. Then what do you do?

Honor Harrington book series had this sort of scenario pop up, where STL ships arrived at their destination, to find another colony of claim-jumpers had beaten them there.  The colony ship didn't have the resources to fight the locals, so had to go on to another system (which they weren't as well equipped to colonize), and when they arrived there might be another colony already there.

For the Manticore colony foundation, one stunt they did was put part of the money into the STL colony ship, and the rest into a trust fund, whose purpose was to protect the colony from claim-jumpers.  So once the slow-boat arrived, they found a colony already present, with a pair of frigates patrolling the system to protect the colony.