BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: chanman on 10 April 2012, 19:50:08
-
Vehicle of the Week: Vedette Medium Tank
Overview
Vedette: a mounted sentinel stationed in advance of pickets (Merriam-Webster). In essence, a position that a commander assigns to troops he doesn’t like in the hope that their screaming will provide early warning of a surprise attack. For those unfamiliar with the name, it is pronounced ‘Red Shirt’.
By all accounts, the Vedette, originally designed by the prolific folks at New Earth Trading Company (NETC), is a thoroughly genericized and commoditized product by the 31st century. TRO 3026R goes so far as to claim that the Vedette is actually a commonly recognized unit of measure among vehicle crews; an anecdote that brings to mind morbid Sherman crews trying to figure out just how many of them were going to bite it in order to clear out an entrenched Tiger in bocage country.
The Vedette is amazingly prolific. Showing up just about everywhere, the Vedette has reached the point where it might be more accurately described as a generic vehicle class like APCs or missile carriers. TRO:3039 goes so far as to claim that it is easily the most popular tank in every successor state. Aside from NETC, it is also produced (as of 3055) by Quikscell, Benson and Bjorn (inside the Ghost Bear OZ), Hellespont, United Outworlders Corporation, Pinard Protectorates Ltd, and Vandenberg Mechanized Industries. Arcturan Arms would enter the fray in the mid-3080’s with a bizarre attempt to pimp a shitcan.
And The Powers That Be said: Let There Be Cannon Fodder
The classic Vedette is simply armed and armoured. A Class-5 autocannon in the turret and a bow-mounted machine gun comprises the entirety of the Vedette’s armament-a configuration seen as far back as the Renault FT-17s of World War One and that no one has bothered to diverge from since 1940. The AC/5 is equipped with a single ton of ammunition, while a ton of machine gun ammunition ensures a plentiful supply of lead for varminting duties.
This is where we first encounter the Vedette’s multitude of variations. Depending on if you are using TRO:3026R, TRO:3039, or RS:3039, the original Vedette may have the machine gun in the front (3026 and RS:3039) or turret (TRO:3039) and may be equipped with either a half ton (both TROs – making the design underweight) or a full ton of ammo (RS:3039). Since the RS:3039 version is the only one that isn’t underweight, we’ll go with that one.
The Vedette is powered by a simple internal combustion engine that gives it a brisk 5/8 movement profile and all the rough terrain abilities conferred by a tracked motive system. Six tons of standard armour protect the Vedette, bizarrely spaced almost evenly around the tank with 20 points of armour on its turret, front hull, and rear hull, with 18 points protecting the flanks, an odd armour scheme even for the Battletech universe.
Two popular variants are noted to show up in pre-Succession War times. Both retain the same engine and armour as the original.
The Vedette Medium Tank (AC2) replaces the AC/5 with the smaller autocannon and a turret-mounted SRM-2, resembling the turret of many modern Infantry Fighting Vehicles. Liao troops are reported to be fond of a variant that replaces the autocannon with two medium lasers and uh… another ton of machine gun ammo. With energy weapons and that much ammunition, this one’ll let you oppress those durn peasants until the cows come home. And then you can oppress them too!
Foundtech: Now more Cannon per Fodder!
TRO:3039 explains that the main effect of the Helm memory core on Vedettes was by making it possible for even MORE manufacturers to tool up production. By 3058 though, NETC were forced to improve their Vedettes in order to compete with… other Vedettes. Turns out that although NETC had managed to hold on to the Intellectual Property rights to the Vedette for centuries, they had decided to license the design to Sian-based Hellespont industries. Hellespont then proceeded to violate their licensing agreement and withhold royalties while refusing to cease sales, forcing NETC to compete with their licensee. (No mention is made of any other Capellan-based Vedette manufacturers).
Noted here is that the original NETC upgrade switches to an Ultra AC/5, but keeps the bow machine gun, and uses Ferro-fibrous armour to add a measly two points of armour to the front.
The most common upgrade to the Vedette resembles the NETC upgrade, but drops the machine gun and upgrades the armour to 6.5 tons of Ferro-fibrous, still laid out fairly evenly at 25 points front/turret, 24 rear, and 21 side. Despite being marginally more survivable, this upgrade forces the Vedette into a pure anti-vehicle/anti-mech role, removing its most essential tool for keeping civil order.
Hellespont goes in the other direction and uses a LB-5x instead of the Ultra autocannon in order to bring back the machine gun so dearly missed by CCAF units in charge of keeping the downtrodden masses properly downtrodden, forgoing the flexibility of a second ton of autocannon ammo in favour of the trusty old machine gun.
The two more advanced NETC variants both reduce the armour in favour of more firepower. The RAC model is armed solely with a turret-mounted RAC/5 with two tons of ammo. In order to stuff this gun in, the armour was thinned to 22 points on the bow, but only 12 points on the turret, 14 on the sides, and 10 at the rear. The good news is that ammunition endurance is unlikely to ever be an issue.
Even more radical, the Light Gauss reduces armour even more to 11 points on the front and sides and 10 points on the turret and rear, creating the Battletech equivalent to US WW2 tank destroyers like the M10 Wolverine or M18 Hellcat. A single Light Gauss Rifle with a ton of ammo equips the Light Gauss Vedette, and a crew that wants to live long enough to use up all 16 shots would be well advised to use their tank’s range and speed judiciously so that they might be able to avoid ever using its armour (and therefore, actually survive an engagement).
Pimp a shitcan! OR Entirely missing the point of the Vedette
First up on our list of crazy variants is “Doris’ Delight” making use of 8.5 tons of ferro-fibrous to dramatically improve protection to 40 front, 30 side, 28 turret, and 24 rear. The hull machine gun is replaced with a ER Medium laser and the turret carries a gauss rifle with two tons of ammo. It all moves faster at 6/9 too. All this made possible through the use of a 300XL engine salvaged off a destroyed mech. Created by Duran “Bootleg” Daley, this monstrosity can’t be compliant with the AFFS’ battlefield salvage policies and Daley’s handle doesn’t help matters. Creator and machine disappeared during the fighting on New Avalon during the Jihad.
Chronologically, the next Vedette to take shape is the as-yet unnamed fuel cell powered Blakist model. Its design idiosyncrasies are enough to make one wonder if the Blakist design bureau’s cafeteria offered a mandatory all-you-can-eat paint chip buffet. The weight savings are spent entirely on weapons – the armour appears to be standard plate and is distributed identically to the 3025 models. For weapons, the main gun is upgraded to an attention-getting LB-10x and two tons of ammo, while a C3 slave allows better coordination. CASE and a bow-mounted AMS system help improve protection a bit. The bow machine gun gets swapped for a heavy machine gun with half a ton of ammo, a questionable choice given the HMG’s deficiencies. The sanity-questioning portion of the weapons suite though are a pair of SRM-2s feeding off a single ton of ammo, with one mounted in the turret, and the second in the rear. Did someone feel there was a glaring need to be able to fart rockets? With the same protection, the ability to act as a C3 spotter, and a much more potent main gun, expect the fuel cell Vedette to attract enemy attention that it is ill-prepared to survive.
From there on, new Vedettes take a turn from questionable to downright trippy. Apparently created by refit centers on Arcturus staffed by the Arcturan Hallucinogenic Enthusiasts Society, the V-GX7 sports such enhancements as dual turrets, a Bombast laser, and uh… a supercharged extra-light fusion engine. Yeah. This Vedette also sports reactive armour, with 25 points on the front, 23 points on the sides and rear, and 21 points on each turret. The second turret, by the way, houses a light autocannon/5, while the bow machine gun is replaced with a pair of magshot gauss rifles. With the supercharger engaged, the V-GX7 can hit 108 km/h, but otherwise keeps the same movement profile of regular Vedettes. Because it would otherwise have trouble hitting a barn from the inside with the Bombast laser, a targeting computer is included in this pimped-out shitcan. Just… don’t ask about the price.
After the refit shop blokes had finished convincing the Arcturan Arms executives of the merits of their bold new vision for where the Vedette (undoubtedly at a presentation enhanced by complimentary psychoactive compounds), the poor engineers of Arcturan Arms were forced to convert the V-GX7 into something resembling a production vehicle. Gone were the extravagant powertrain, secondary LAC turret, targeting computer, and unstable armour, replaced with a fuel cell engine and 5 tons of heavy ferro spread out 22 front, 20 side, 19 rear, and 18 turret. What remains is a bombast laser in the turret and a pair of bow Magshots, unnecessarily protected by CASE. True, the bombast laser will now have trouble hitting anything at full power, but at least prospective customers might actually be able to afford purchasing the Vedette V7. Even if it does possess the Poor Workmanship quirk, it should feel like a step up to any customer used to Quikscell-produced products.
Vedetta: Is the Vedette right for you?
Despite being the apparent ‘standard’ by which tanks are judged, Vedettes simply aren’t for everybody. Well, okay. Vedettes ARE for everybody, but not for everything. To determine if the Vedette is right for YOU, fill out the following questionnaire:
I am looking to equip:
a) A flagship house formation
b) An elite mercenary regiment
c) Hordes of barely literate thugs militia with which to oppress the peasantry
My armour crews can generally be summed up as:
a) The sons and daughters of the nation, to be afforded the very best
b) Valuable battle-hardened veterans who have survived countless battles
c) Barely literate thugs with which to oppress the peasantry
The most likely opposition I will face would be:
a) Another house’s massive invasion force
b) Clan shock troops
c) Pirates and rebellious peasantry
When push comes to shove, I will be fighting:
a) A long, violent campaign of attrition
b) A few short, intense battles
c) Decades of low-intensity counter-insurgency operations
The technological infrastructure of my world/city/nation-state is:
a) Almost as advanced as anyone has been since the fall of the Star League
b) Heavily industrialized, even if not quite cutting-edge
c) Barely literate thugs with which to oppress the peasantry
All kidding aside (let’s just pretend the Bombast laser versions don’t exist, mmkay?), the Vedette is all about the basic technology and mass numbers. I’d discount the official ultra autocannon version out of hand. Go with the NETC or Hellespont variants that keep that useful machine gun. The LBx version can serve as a light flak machine or a vehicle hunter with the cluster shot, but you won’t be able to carry both slugs and cluster rounds at the same time, not that the loss of a single 5 point hit is particularly noticeable. Better to try for the TACs. The 3025 medium laser variant is interesting, but inefficient. It’s short-ranged and requires power amplifiers and heat sinks to put out the kind of firepower a Stinger carries. The Word of Blake Vedette is best avoided. With its heavy BV cost, odd secondary armament, and light armour, they represent an easy target for an opponent looking to remove mobile firepower from your force for minimal investment of effort.
Should you ever need to actually use the Vedette in combat, remember that there is strength in numbers. It may be a fifty ton vehicle, but in terms of firepower, it should be treated like a low-end light mech. This tank is badly hobbled by the value that BV2 places on armour. Any BV2, weight, or force-size multiplier balanced game is a game no Vedette has a place in. There are more versatile vehicles that give more utility for the BV.
Frankly, from the moment the Myrmidon became available, the Vedette has been completely superseded for combat operations. The Myrmidon is under twice the BV2 than the level 1 Vedette, carries 50% more armour, moves just as fast, has a main gun that fire nearly as far for twice the damage, and with the SRM, can lay low more infantry faster with frag rounds. Oh, and it’s under double the price of the original Vedette too.
What the Vedette IS perfect for is as cheap NPC unit for a GM to throw at players. They’re not outright suicide machines like SRM carriers and they have incredibly granular lethality. Just keep adding Vedettes to the Big Bad’s redshirt army until you achieve the right level of challenge for the PCs. With a single LRM-20 on par with a Vedette lance for firepower, the Vedettes will give PCs something to shoot up, but will take a few tries to put down. Similarly, any conventional army that the PCs might be aiding can be built by incorporating massive numbers of Vedettes. Just don’t try to use them to dislodge say… an entrenched Demolisher II in bocage country if you need them as active units instead of as smoking wrecks.
If tanks were burgers, the Vedette would be the plain McDonald’s hamburger: A completely unremarkable but serviceable lowest-common denominator vehicle to be chewed up and forgotten. It costs more BV2 or C-bills than you’d like for what it offers in return, and does a lot to perpetuate the attitude that tanks are inferior to mechs.
As a mediocre machine offering poor value, the Vedette earns a evil despot score of C. Use only if you want to gear your mooks up just like every other two-bit despot out there. For those looking for the latest and greatest vehicular method with which to oppress the peasantry, tune in next week.
-
Paint your Vedettes white with little bits of black trim, and an imperial sigil on the nose. They are, from utility to population, the Star Wars Stormtrooper of the CBT verse. And they're about as useful - you can oppress some Jawas with them but not any real threat.
-
Paint your Vedettes white with little bits of black trim, and an imperial sigil on the nose. They are, from utility to population, the Star Wars Stormtrooper of the CBT verse. And they're about as useful - you can oppress some Jawas with them but not any real threat.
You'll like my pick for next week's subject. O:-)
-
Vehicle of the Week: Vedette Medium Tank
Vedetta: Is the Vedette right for you?
Despite being the apparent ‘standard’ by which tanks are judged, Vedettes simply aren’t for everybody. Well, okay. Vedettes ARE for everybody, but not for everything. To determine if the Vedette is right for YOU, fill out the following questionnaire:
I am looking to equip:
a) A flagship house formation
b) An elite mercenary regiment
c) Hordes of barely literate thugs militia with which to oppress the peasantry
My armour crews can generally be summed up as:
a) The sons and daughters of the nation, to be afforded the very best
b) Valuable battle-hardened veterans who have survived countless battles
c) Barely literate thugs with which to oppress the peasantry
The most likely opposition I will face would be:
a) Another house’s massive invasion force
b) Clan shock troops
c) Pirates and rebellious peasantry
When push comes to shove, I will be fighting:
a) A long, violent campaign of attrition
b) A few short, intense battles
c) Decades of low-intensity counter-insurgency operations
The technological infrastructure of my world/city/nation-state is:
a) Almost as advanced as anyone has been since the fall of the Star League
b) Heavily industrialized, even if not quite cutting-edge
c) Barely literate thugs with which to oppress the peasantry
You seem to have an unrealistically high opinion of troops assigned Vedettes. :)
They do have some value as anti-air platforms (soley because they tend to have decent range on the main gun), and basic Rifle infantry shouldn't try to get directly in front of the machinegun, but mostly they serve as filler for a unit of real tanks.
-
Are any of the more reasonable variants carrying an FE in any form?
-
Are any of the more reasonable variants carrying an FE in any form?
Interestingly, no. Vedettes come in ICE, Fuel Cell, or XLFE, but no standard fusion engines.
Regarding AA - they do make decent platforms, but with only one ton of ammo, flak ammo for the standard AC/5 is actually a pretty good idea since it also does full damage when oppressing the peasantry as long as you don't mind doing half damage to any other ground targets. It is also noted as uncommon and so, probably more expensive and supply-constrained than vanilla HE slugs though.
Ditto the LB-5x variant from Hellespont. The UAC/5 variants miss out on being able to use flak or cluster ammo.
-
You'll like my pick for next week's subject. O:-)
Ignis?
-
Ignis?
VV1 Ranger
-
From there on, new Vedettes take a turn from questionable to downright trippy. Apparently created by refit centers on Arcturus staffed by the Arcturan Hallucinogenic Enthusiasts Society, the V-GX7 sports such enhancements as dual turrets, a Bombast laser, and uh… a supercharged extra-light fusion engine. Yeah. This Vedette also sports reactive armour, with 25 points on the front, 23 points on the sides and rear, and 21 points on each turret. The second turret, by the way, houses a light autocannon/5, while the bow machine gun is replaced with a pair of magshot gauss rifles. With the supercharger engaged, the V-GX7 can hit 108 km/h, but otherwise keeps the same movement profile of regular Vedettes. Because it would otherwise have trouble hitting a barn from the inside with the Bombast laser, a targeting computer is included in this pimped-out shitcan. Just… don’t ask about the price.
Keith Laumer Bolo: "I shall call him... Mini-Me"
honestly i'm surprised there was never a variant of the baseline vehicle that went to a lighter main gun in order to fit in an Infantry bay.. it would make a wonderful cheap IFV.
-
The range does indeed make the Vedette a servicable AA tank. I'd actually use the AC/2 version for this, since flak ammo makes you EXTREMELY capable of laying down the Lawn-Dart rolls, and you're only losng one point of damage against ground units. The speed is also handy, as you can quickly reposition to cover different parts of a battlefield. The LB-5 is also very nice, though I see that one as being most useful at swatting helos, since you can probably count on at least a couple rotor hits with every shot. Given the AFFS's new preference for lots of VTOLs and hovercraft to carry their oh-so-terrifying battlesuit hordes, an LB5-X Vedette or two is probably an extremely good idea for many Capellan units.
VV1 Ranger
[rockon]
-
The range does indeed make the Vedette a servicable AA tank. I'd actually use the AC/2 version for this, since flak ammo makes you EXTREMELY capable of laying down the Lawn-Dart rolls, and you're only losng one point of damage against ground units. The speed is also handy, as you can quickly reposition to cover different parts of a battlefield. The LB-5 is also very nice, though I see that one as being most useful at swatting helos, since you can probably count on at least a couple rotor hits with every shot. Given the AFFS's new preference for lots of VTOLs and hovercraft to carry their oh-so-terrifying battlesuit hordes, an LB5-X Vedette or two is probably an extremely good idea for many Capellan units.
[rockon]
Honestly, if I was looking to make the Davions think twice about raiding, I'd combine missile-heavy aerospace fighters and T-augs. Use light fighters to keep the dropper escorts turning and burning gas while you extrapolate their trajectory. Once the attackers are committed or landed and cycling the CAP, blanket the parking/parked droppers and everything around them with mines. You either delay deployment of ground forces while they clear the mines or inflict free damage. Either way, it keeps 'em busy while your follow-up wave brings the iron. (Torrent strike package, maybe?)
Even the crappiest mech or tank on the ground beats a premier unit that can't make it out of its dropship
-
The LB-5X Vedette is the one I want to see converted to a FCE, since I think it would have the most benefit to the design with the ability to make it a decent combat variant. The weight would go to extra ammo and armor, like a lot of designs.
Conversely, I have wanted to see LAC/5 and LAC/2 versions of the Vedette. I made some up, and with rapid fire AC rules they can get annoying (death of 1k cuts) for a mech force. I think, when I looked at it you could use a LAC/5, LRM5 and MG on one with a bit of an armor improvement- especially if you went FCE.
-
Any guess on why there isn't a LPPC variant yet?
-
Hmm . . . a Plasma Rifle variant would make sense IMO.
-
Sometimes usd to field a company of them under BV1 to annoy the hell out of my opponent. Considering the BV for said company was about the same as a high end mech while the firepower was about the same and the speed and survive ability for the whole company were actually better than a lone mech it wasn't a bad option. Haven't tried it in BV2 yet so I have no Idea how it will match up.
-
Given the descriptions in various TROs, I really have to wonder what is more popular. Crewing a Vedette, or serving on a J27 Ammo Carrier.
-
@plasma rifle, not enough tonnage, would need FCE or SFE at least
-
Very nice article. O0
I love a cheap Vedette lance for an armor company.
Fast, expendable and long-ranged for some quick fire support.
-
An entertaining fluff tank, though that hull design - especially that shell trap at the front if the hull - drives me crazy.
-
Is it wrong to want a battalion of vedettes in which to throw at people at games? Just the sheer number of such a design might be enough to give someone a heart attack.
-
The only thing that really irritates me with this tank is that it's overweight - 45 tons would give you another half ton while saving cash! >:(
Otherwise, it's a faster, better armored Scorpion. Which, given that the Scorpion is the other obvious choice for militia units, probably explains a lot of the Vedette's success! After all, I bet most tank crews will be strongly in favor of 6 tons armor and 86 kph speed over 4 tons armor and 64 kph speed!
-
@plasma rifle, not enough tonnage, would need FCE or SFE at least
Huh? The gun itself weights 6 tons, which is 2 less than the AC/5. Add a ton of ammo to get the same sort of length of fire and your still a ton light?
-
The most common upgrade to the Vedette resembles the NETC upgrade, but drops the machine gun and upgrades the armour to 6.5 tons of Ferro-fibrous, still laid out fairly evenly at 25 points front/turret, 24 rear, and 21 side. Despite being marginally more survivable, this upgrade forces the Vedette into a pure anti-vehicle/anti-mech role, removing its most essential tool for keeping civil order.
I just want to point out that the 3058 Ultra model IS the one made by Hellespont.
The article seems to imply otherwise.
Though it doesn't look like they made it for long since they swapped to LBX a decade later.
This tank is badly hobbled by the value that BV2 places on armour. Any BV2, balanced game is a game no Vedette has a place in. There are more versatile vehicles that give more utility for the BV.
I don't know, at 400-550 BV they aren't all bad.
I think the big key is making sure you get the use of that 5/8 out of them.
I like the regular AC versions 2 & 5 for Flak & Precision ammo usage.
Though I'm probably a bit biased since my old MW1 campaign was based out of New Earth in the late 80's.
The Fuel Cell model is certainly different, I'm unsure how I feel about it yet.
A few things I'd have really liked to see for the Vedette.
L1 variant w/ LRM15 & 2 tons ammo
L1 variants w/ MG in the Turret. (2 MGs & 1/2 the ammo)
L2 variants using the RAC-2, LAC-5, or MML's. (w/ FFA or HFFA)
-
Huh? The gun itself weights 6 tons, which is 2 less than the AC/5. Add a ton of ammo to get the same sort of length of fire and your still a ton light?
Plasmas use Heatsinks
-
ah, lol, overlooked that
-
VV1 Ranger
Oooh, the War Crime On Wheels.
As far as the Vedette goes, I think the LPPC+5HS swap and a bitty power amp is brilliant. It still leaves you half a ton to use on other things, and since heat isn't a concern for tanks there's no reason NOT to shoot - even on 12s.
-
I've always seen tanks like the Vedette as fodder units, there to be put into scenarios as a way to make it easier to defeat the opfor.
Very few players go out of their way to insert them into their forces unless they're looking for init sinks.
-
As far as the Vedette goes, I think the LPPC+5HS swap and a bitty power amp is brilliant. It still leaves you half a ton to use on other things, and since heat isn't a concern for tanks there's no reason NOT to shoot - even on 12s.
Interesting, trades specialty ammo for endurance, not a bad idea depending on the mission/usage.
-
The 5-X variant looks like something I would seriously consider adding to a real unit to provide cheap support. Sure the firepower is terrible, but the flexibility of the cluster gun should make it worth the low price tag so long as you keep it safe with units that can actually fight.
Another interesting thought is that the Bears do control a Vedette line, and the design mentality here fits very well with the typical Clan attitude towards vehicles so we could see a IIC at some point. My money is on a 5-X and UAC 5 variant with ICEs and standard armor to keep the price down, but there are a lot of possibilities out there.
-
Another interesting thought is that the Bears do control a Vedette line, and the design mentality here fits very well with the typical Clan attitude towards vehicles so we could see a IIC at some point. My money is on a 5-X and UAC 5 variant with ICEs and standard armor to keep the price down
I honestly can say, I hope we don't.
The investment in retooling the factory to get a slightly better AC for what is supposed to be a cheap garrison unit is a waste of resources IMHO.
I actually like the idea of Dominion units being mixes of clan & is tech.
Front Line Omnimechs & Elementals while still using L1 tech Tanks & PBI for militia/PGC duties.
-
Interesting, trades specialty ammo for endurance, not a bad idea depending on the mission/usage.
Isn't that a bit ambitious for a Vedette? Marketing it that way might dupe the crews into thinking they might survive a battle once in a while. }:)
-
I honestly can say, I hope we don't.
The investment in retooling the factory to get a slightly better AC for what is supposed to be a cheap garrison unit is a waste of resources IMHO.
I actually like the idea of Dominion units being mixes of clan & is tech.
Front Line Omnimechs & Elementals while still using L1 tech Tanks & PBI for militia/PGC duties.
I know what you mean, and that was the reason I was thinking of sticking with standard components. That lets you keep using IS production lines and just tacking on Clan made weapons at the end for a major performance boost with minimal cost.
-
I honestly can say, I hope we don't.
The investment in retooling the factory to get a slightly better AC for what is supposed to be a cheap garrison unit is a waste of resources IMHO.
I actually like the idea of Dominion units being mixes of clan & is tech.
Front Line Omnimechs & Elementals while still using L1 tech Tanks & PBI for militia/PGC duties.
Problem here is your wanting them to keep producing a standard IS AC/5 . . . which if something needs a gun, they will not want to mount on anything else. The Bears are much better served by retooling any line that makes the AC/5 into a Clan LB-5X or Clan UAC/5- which can be podded for Omnis even!- than keep producing AC/5s.
Does this mean the Bears should refit old Vedettes with Clan LB-5X? No . . . as you said that defeats the purpose.
Then again, I am thinking of having my mercs refit Vedettes . . . particularly to Fuel Cell power, LBX, MML and now the LPPC versions . . . though I only have 2 lances of Vedettes.
It does give me an idea for NPC opposition mercs though.
-
The Capellans presumably have a lot of these to go with their Pos. How do they compare, and if you were an armor commander given a battalion of each, how would you utilize them?
-
The Capellans presumably have a lot of these to go with their Pos. How do they compare, and if you were an armor commander given a battalion of each, how would you utilize them?
Pos are the Shermans, Vedettes are the Stuarts :D
-
Pos are the Shermans, Vedettes are the Stuarts :D
Po's are the Tiger I's, Vedettes are the Panzer IV's, Scorpions are the Panzer III's... and if you buiy your proxies from GHQ, that can be literal.. :)
-
You know? I started thinking what could be nasty surprise in Bear Vedette IIC.
Some way to stuff a HAG20 in there... Would need to do some serious weight-shavings all over, but it'd sure give some surprise 'Sya Hello to our little Firnds' moment for, say, a Robe unit with several vehicles... :D
-
I just want to point out that the 3058 Ultra model IS the one made by Hellespont.
The article seems to imply otherwise.
Though it doesn't look like they made it for long since they swapped to LBX a decade later.
It's not mentioned which variant Hellespont was originally licensed to produce, or if it was licensed to produce all of the existing variants up to that point. TRO3058U specifies that the LB-5x variant is a Hellespont creation sold exclusively to Trinity Alliance members though.
It would make good ranged support for the equally basic Pos. Cluster death!
One other thing I didn't touch on - the SRM-2 on the AC/2 version is good for setting fire to things if you're using the supposedly rare inferno ammo. Aside from that... frag grounds for riot control, I suppose.
-
You know? I started thinking what could be nasty surprise in Bear Vedette IIC.
Some way to stuff a HAG20 in there... Would need to do some serious weight-shavings all over, but it'd sure give some surprise 'Sya Hello to our little Firnds' moment for, say, a Robe unit with several vehicles... :D
That would work as well, although it might draw more attention than the Vedette can take. Of course, that does mean your less expendable units are not taking as much fire and it would fit with the typical Clan vehicle strategy of having more guns than sense so I could definitely see it happening. It would not even take that much effort because the HAG is lighter than the LGR (although the ammo does make up the difference) and we already have a canon LGR variant to work from.
-
Any guess on why there isn't a LPPC variant yet?
They're all in use on more survivable platforms. Like the Stinger.
-
Standard AC/5s let you use flechette ammo. Oppress your peasantry more efficiently!
-
You know? I started thinking what could be nasty surprise in Bear Vedette IIC.
Some way to stuff a HAG20 in there... Would need to do some serious weight-shavings all over, but it'd sure give some surprise 'Sya Hello to our little Firnds' moment for, say, a Robe unit with several vehicles... :D
Heck, replace the engine with a FCE and you should be able to stuff a HAG40 in there! ;D
-
As far as the Vedette goes, I think the LPPC+5HS swap and a bitty power amp is brilliant. It still leaves you half a ton to use on other things, and since heat isn't a concern for tanks there's no reason NOT to shoot - even on 12s.
Full ton, the turret a half lighter due to the reduced WEAPON weight
Clan variant would use UAC-5, then there would be ammo and parts floating around for it, plus the retooled line could be used for REAL Clan Warrior weapons, instead of having to import them from the homeworlds
-
I tolled up a Vedette variant with a LAC-5 and a trio of RL-15s in the turret. Lost some range, gained some quick and nasty firepower. After all, its dead anyway, so a one-shot sting isn't going to hurt.
-
Problem here is your wanting them to keep producing a standard IS AC/5 . . . which if something needs a gun, they will not want to mount on anything else. The Bears are much better served by retooling any line that makes the AC/5 into a Clan LB-5X or Clan UAC/5- which can be podded for Omnis even!- than keep producing AC/5s.
in the homeworlds, the clans continued to use unmodified SLDF mechs, vehicles, and fighters in their second line and Solhama units, all the way to the Wars of Rieving. so a clan continuing to produce 'lower tech' IS weapons has a precedent.
for the bears, IS weapons are cheaper and less resource intensive to produce, so leaving some factories to make them actually helps them, since they can continue to support the FRR gear they inherited.
-
Honestly, the tech "upgrade" the Vedette probably needs are things like the LAC, or for fancy folks the LPPC version mentioned above.
Or a RAC/2. It'd probably last about as long on ammo as the tank armor does.
-
Honestly, I wouldn't upgrade the Vedette, I'd just use 50% more fo them. Given that they have comperitively decent range and speed, they actualy have aged better than many other tanks from the era; they're still about as problematic as they've always been.
In my eye, though, the Vedette is in a way one of the most important tanks, and its role in relation to other tanks that get more table top time is important. One view, that I tend to hold, is that most of the huge armor formations we see in the 3020s are Vedette-type tanks (or Scorpion types, or Harassers or the like). The mega hundreds of conventional regements every house fields haven't replaced mechs because they're mostly full of lack luster cannon fodder tanks, and not the Patons and Rommels and Pos and Demolishers and whatever that players actualy tend to use. Depending on what you think the ratio of terrable tanks to good tanks is changes the nature of how things are, and what the place of mechs on the battlefield is.
As for new ones... I don't mind the UAC one, since the UAC is a pretty lack luster weapon and so it feels 'right' on a Vedette. Plus, its been around a decade longer than the LB (which is more desirable on the whole) and its popularity has fallen off a lot since its introduction (when new toy syndrome propelled it into a lot of unsuitable roles) so it should be pretty common.
Some of the hyper advanced ones almost seem like that would be fun as supprises, if you hid your record sheets and just told your opponent (in the appropreate senerio-type setting) 'you're facing some Vedettes' and you mixed a few awesome ones into some regular ones. Supprise! This one has a pile of armor and a GR or RAC.
-
I will be looking forward to a Fuel Cell + Heavy Rifle + MG version in a future XTRO-Militia... particularly for the Capellan Home Guard units facing those hordes of AFFS Battle Armor. O0
A company of Vedette's mixed with Myrmadon's as command tanks is about adequate to fight off most battlemech lances. A mix of eighteen AC/5, LB/5X, PPCs on regular gunners can be pretty devastating.
-
in the homeworlds, the clans continued to use unmodified SLDF mechs, vehicles, and fighters in their second line and Solhama units, all the way to the Wars of Rieving. so a clan continuing to produce 'lower tech' IS weapons has a precedent.
for the bears, IS weapons are cheaper and less resource intensive to produce, so leaving some factories to make them actually helps them, since they can continue to support the FRR gear they inherited.
Use and produce are two different things. The Homeworld Clans have not produced IS-level tech in centuries and only pull it out of storage when they have no other choice so it makes sense that it would come out during the WoR when they need every fighting machine they can get no matter how bad it is.
As for the Bears, they are not maintaining their IS gear any more than they have to as they try to get it all replaced with Clan tech equipment. The reason they are still using it is because they have been too busy to fully upgrade and need to press everything they can into service to make up for losses during the Jihad.
Honestly, I wouldn't upgrade the Vedette, I'd just use 50% more fo them. Given that they have comperitively decent range and speed, they actualy have aged better than many other tanks from the era; they're still about as problematic as they've always been.
That was why I was thinking of doing as little as possible with a simple weapon swap. According to the numbers on Sarna, it should cost about 150,000 to upgrade from the old gun to a Clan LBX model which brings the overall cost from about 725,000 to a bit under 900,000 so you would only be loosing one tank out of every 5 or 6 to get the better gun. When you consider how much more useful that makes the vehicle, how much easier it becomes to get anti-air rounds, and the fact that it simplifies logistics by eliminating an obsolete IS weapon from use I can easily see the Bears implementing some minimal upgrades to new builds.
-
Certainly, the Bears aren't afraid to invest in (very expensive) upgrades on IS vehicles where they see the merit. See the Axel IIC.
-
Isn't that a bit ambitious for a Vedette? Marketing it that way might dupe the crews into thinking they might survive a battle once in a while. }:)
LMAO !! Touche my friend ;)
-
It's not mentioned which variant Hellespont was originally licensed to produce, or if it was licensed to produce all of the existing variants up to that point. TRO3058U specifies that the LB-5x variant is a Hellespont creation sold exclusively to Trinity Alliance members though.
Directly from the fluff
The new Vedette is a simple, cost-effective upgrade that features performance and survivability considerably superior to its progenitor. To increase the tank's survivability, Hellespont gained additional armor tonnage by removing the light machine gun and replacing the standard armor with the locally produced ferro-fibrous Hellespont Lite. This modification provides the tank with 20 percent more armor protection. Hellespont also exchanged the Armstrong J11 autocannon for an Imperator Ultra series gun. This improvement in firepower allows the crew to attack with an increased rate of fire and at greater ranges than previously possible.
Its pretty clear, the 3058 (Ultra) model is a Hellespont creation initially.
-
That would work as well, although it might draw more attention than the Vedette can take. Of course, that does mean your less expendable units are not taking as much fire and it would fit with the typical Clan vehicle strategy of having more guns than sense so I could definitely see it happening. It would not even take that much effort because the HAG is lighter than the LGR (although the ammo does make up the difference) and we already have a canon LGR variant to work from.
The flaw I see with a HAG version is the same w/ the RAC5 & LGR ones the IS makes, too much gun, not enough Armor, glass canons.
Tanks are already destroyed easier & harder to salvage than mechs.
Skimping on the Armor just makes the problem worse.
-
for the bears, IS weapons are cheaper and less resource intensive to produce, so leaving some factories to make them actually helps them, since they can continue to support the FRR gear they inherited.
This is my point.
They already have a factory that produces simple tanks in large #s.
Refitting it stops production, and then the clan tech version is likely produced in smaller #s over all since clan tech is a higher grade of material.
And all the parts are already in production at FRR factories so its not like they are having any issue keeping up w/ replacement "old tech" parts like they would in the Homeworlds.
Use and produce are two different things. The Homeworld Clans have not produced IS-level tech in centuries and only pull it out of storage when they have no other choice so it makes sense that it would come out during the WoR when they need every fighting machine they can get no matter how bad it is.
As for the Bears, they are not maintaining their IS gear any more than they have to as they try to get it all replaced with Clan tech equipment. The reason they are still using it is because they have been too busy to fully upgrade and need to press everything they can into service to make up for losses during the Jihad.
That was why I was thinking of doing as little as possible with a simple weapon swap. According to the numbers on Sarna, it should cost about 150,000 to upgrade from the old gun to a Clan LBX model which brings the overall cost from about 725,000 to a bit under 900,000 so you would only be loosing one tank out of every 5 or 6 to get the better gun. When you consider how much more useful that makes the vehicle, how much easier it becomes to get anti-air rounds, and the fact that it simplifies logistics by eliminating an obsolete IS weapon from use I can easily see the Bears implementing some minimal upgrades to new builds.
The issue I see here is no matter how simple a refit you make it, you've now stuck advanced clan tech on a budget tank assigned to militia. Which now means that all those militias have to have techs trained to fix a clan tech weapon system. Where before they could get by w/ the knowledge slightly more than a typical automechanic. Look at how the Dragoons earned major bank by teaching techs from everywhere how to maintain the small amount of clan tech captured by combat units. Many units just sold it to the House for advanced IS stuff that they could work on.
Clearly this stuff has some major differences in it if people couldn't fix it that were trained in fixing "similar" models of IS tech.
You mention C-bills but a Clan LB5X & IS LB5X cost the same price. Or do they ? Sure the game gives them the same cost but then tells us how Clan tech goes for 4-10x or more on the black market. Or how the NAIS can duplicate a Clan ERML but it costs MILLIONS to do so instead of a few thousand, or days/weeks to complete a single weapon instead of hours.
I see this as something that sounds all good OOC but IC the "fluff" would make it a much more complex, time consuming, & expensive. Sure it will be easier for the Bears but even w/ the knowledge to make something doesn't mean the final production will be as fast. Maybe the factory takes 2x as long to make the clan version, etc etc. Which is all fine an exceptable for a MadDog or T-Wolf, but I'm thinking I want my Vedettes to be as numerous as possible supporting my legions of infantry.
-
The flaw I see with a HAG version is the same w/ the RAC5 & LGR ones the IS makes, too much gun, not enough Armor, glass canons.
Tanks are already destroyed easier & harder to salvage than mechs.
Skimping on the Armor just makes the problem worse.
I fully agree and explicitly mentioned in the post you quoted that I was concerned about the HAG drawing more attention than the armor could take. Really, the only reason I could see it happening at all is because the Clans have a bad habit of doing that to every tank they make so a suicidally over gunned variant would fit right in.
This is my point.
They already have a factory that produces simple tanks in large #s.
Refitting it stops production, and then the clan tech version is likely produced in smaller #s over all since clan tech is a higher grade of material.
And all the parts are already in production at FRR factories so its not like they are having any issue keeping up w/ replacement "old tech" parts like they would in the Homeworlds.
The thing is, we know the Bears have been trying to shift fully to Clan tech because it is much better and no harder for them to produce or maintain with their knowledge base.
The issue I see here is no matter how simple a refit you make it, you've now stuck advanced clan tech on a budget tank assigned to militia. Which now means that all those militias have to have techs trained to fix a clan tech weapon system. Where before they could get by w/ the knowledge slightly more than a typical automechanic. Look at how the Dragoons earned major bank by teaching techs from everywhere how to maintain the small amount of clan tech captured by combat units. Many units just sold it to the House for advanced IS stuff that they could work on.
Clearly this stuff has some major differences in it if people couldn't fix it that were trained in fixing "similar" models of IS tech.
That was within the confines of the IS where no one else knew how to fix it. That gave the Dragoons a monopoly so they could quite literally charge whatever they wanted and the IS houses would have to pay it if they wanted to be able to maintain Clan tech. The Bears are Clan so they already have a working knowledge of the equipment and will think nothing of sending out instructions or trainers to bring their techs up to speed on the one or two new weapons they are being issued. Given that properly trained techs do not have any more difficulty working with Clan tech than IS tech, I think it is very clear that once the extra bit of training has been completed there will be no significant maintenance difference between the two.
Also, I find your comment that the techs working on IS gear can get by with "knowledge slightly more than a typical automechanic" laughably absurd because every combat vehicle has a complex set of fire control electronics, shells filled with dangerous explosives, armor that absolutely must be properly maintained and fitted after being removed to work on the internals, and advanced weapons (yes, even the AC/5 counts). Even the militia techs need special training to work on combat vehicles, so adding the maintenance of a few basic Clan tech weapons to their training program would not be that hard to do.
You mention C-bills but a Clan LB5X & IS LB5X cost the same price. Or do they ? Sure the game gives them the same cost but then tells us how Clan tech goes for 4-10x or more on the black market. Or how the NAIS can duplicate a Clan ERML but it costs MILLIONS to do so instead of a few thousand, or days/weeks to complete a single weapon instead of hours.
That is all for IS factions which are making the weapons by hand and have no idea how the Clans manufacture them on assembly lines. We know the Clans can mass produce their own weapons without too much trouble, and the Bears have a history of refitting IS production lines to produce Clan tech so assuming IS prices is absurd.
I see this as something that sounds all good OOC but IC the "fluff" would make it a much more complex, time consuming, & expensive. Sure it will be easier for the Bears but even w/ the knowledge to make something doesn't mean the final production will be as fast. Maybe the factory takes 2x as long to make the clan version, etc etc. Which is all fine an exceptable for a MadDog or T-Wolf, but I'm thinking I want my Vedettes to be as numerous as possible supporting my legions of infantry.
Not really. You just set up a new 5-X line in parallel to the existing lines so you can switch over the gun once it comes online and scale it to match the vehicle production rate. Then you go ahead and retool the old AC 5 line to produce UAC 5's so you can mount both weapons and expand the vehicle line to make more tanks to use the new guns, bring in old vehicles for an upgrade, or send them off to be used in other units. The actual process of changing the vehicle will be very quick because it is essentially a one-for-one swap on the weapons, and if you have a pile of spare UAC 5's or 5-X's lying around you can even switch over the vehicle line before you get the cannon line running to get the improved vehicles coming off the line a bit early. The result is a plan that is easy to implement with virtually no downtime on the production line, has a series of easy implementation stages, increases overall production capabilities, and does not cost all that much.
-
One thing on the 'too much gun' argument?
Do you think anyone complains about having too much gun when the Robes are setting stuff aflame with nuclear weapons. An IS Clan like the Bears is one of the prime targets for WoB Temper Tantrum Strategy, so they might find it worth the while to have as much hit-power as possible in the defensive formations. Having a HAG-20 in Vedette also helps with the chronically low-skilled Clan vehicle crews giving them a littl better chance at hitting.
Sure, if I had suggested a Vedette IIC at 100 tons with triple-HAG40 turret and XLFE, it'd be silly. But putting a HAG20 into a defensive vehicle that is likely to be facing WoB units? Makes sense to help the guys hit what they are aiming at and make it count.
One could turn Vedette into a brick, shifting the armor up like crazy, to some 20% of total weight, if one wants. It still wouldn't b that ffective, and the crew would still be major expendable. With more gun, at least they can make themselves somewhat useful.
-
I agree, it would seem a logical Ghost Bear upgrade. :)
-
This is my point.
They already have a factory that produces simple tanks in large #s.
Refitting it stops production, and then the clan tech version is likely produced in smaller #s over all since clan tech is a higher grade of material.
And all the parts are already in production at FRR factories so its not like they are having any issue keeping up w/ replacement "old tech" parts like they would in the Homeworlds.
The issue I see here is no matter how simple a refit you make it, you've now stuck advanced clan tech on a budget tank assigned to militia. Which now means that all those militias have to have techs trained to fix a clan tech weapon system. Where before they could get by w/ the knowledge slightly more than a typical automechanic. Look at how the Dragoons earned major bank by teaching techs from everywhere how to maintain the small amount of clan tech captured by combat units. Many units just sold it to the House for advanced IS stuff that they could work on.
Clearly this stuff has some major differences in it if people couldn't fix it that were trained in fixing "similar" models of IS tech.
You mention C-bills but a Clan LB5X & IS LB5X cost the same price. Or do they ? Sure the game gives them the same cost but then tells us how Clan tech goes for 4-10x or more on the black market. Or how the NAIS can duplicate a Clan ERML but it costs MILLIONS to do so instead of a few thousand, or days/weeks to complete a single weapon instead of hours.
I see this as something that sounds all good OOC but IC the "fluff" would make it a much more complex, time consuming, & expensive. Sure it will be easier for the Bears but even w/ the knowledge to make something doesn't mean the final production will be as fast. Maybe the factory takes 2x as long to make the clan version, etc etc. Which is all fine an exceptable for a MadDog or T-Wolf, but I'm thinking I want my Vedettes to be as numerous as possible supporting my legions of infantry.
Do the Clans also not make the Zorya? The only advanced thing on that unit is the weaponry, the rest from the ICE powerplant to the token armor is all standard.
-
That is all for IS factions which are making the weapons by hand and have no idea how the Clans manufacture them on assembly lines. We know the Clans can mass produce their own weapons without too much trouble, and the Bears have a history of refitting IS production lines to produce Clan tech so assuming IS prices is absurd.
Can they ? I'm serious. Think about it. The entirety of clan society is based on a don't waste anything philosophy. Only the Warrior Caste sees any extravagance. Warriors themselves are less than a fraction of 1% of all people in the Homeworlds. They have training that kills or disqualifies some 95%+ of all trainees. The other castes are left to die w/o food/medicine as soon as they can no longer keep up their quota at their job. Warriors fight over the privelage of piloting an Omnimech. Garrison units are stuck using SLDF tech because they can't outfit everyone with even Standard Clan Tech Mechs, let alone Omnimechs. And yet, they can mass produce Clan Tech all willynilly better than the IS can produce L1 Tanks ? Really ? That makes sense to you ? That the Bears have mastered producing clan tech compared to the NAIS I can buy. That they can crank out just as many Clan Versions of something compared to IS-L1/L2 Versions? Nope, I don't buy that for even a second. Something is holding them back or they would be sitting around with warehouses full of Timberwolves instead of making SFE anythings. Yet we constantly see how limited production in the clans really is in the way they have to trial against each other for any production output they can get. Yes, the Bears moved a few Million of their own people to the OZ and its likely that a few thousand of them are trained in Clan Tech Weapons Maintenance. But compare that to the BILLIONS of people that live in the FRR/GBD. Like I said above, I think its a good idea to keep some things totally IS tech based that can be easily maintained by units w/o any access to advanced training techniques. But hey, opinions vary.
-
Don't sugar coat it tell us how you really feel. O:-)
Seriously though, I would have to agree. While it may be possible that they could refit Vedettes with Clan tech but I just cannot see them wanting too. Except for the Hell Horses vehicles are units no khan is going to waste time upgrading unless it is convenient. I'm sure the Ghost Bears have plenty of other things to concentrate their resources on.
-
To be fair...
I could easily see the CGB Scientists updating the local manufacturing processes to their standards, letting them produce Vedette's with a ClanTech AC/5 (I think it's 1 ton less, 1 crit less) and otherwise standard armor/chassis/engine etc. Maybe switching the MG to a pair of clan Light-MG. Adding CASE would be cheap.
It's not hard to argue for a Vedette IIC build with clan technology with cheap production / conserve resources being the main idea. Otherwise re-tooling it for a different vehicle is the only thing I can imagine, phasing out the old stuff... but I like the clan low-tech Vedette idea better.
I don't know if Clanners would consider building a new SFE or Fuel Cell engine preferable to a ICE that requires expenditures for fuel.
-
Don't sugar coat it tell us how you really feel. O:-)
Seriously though, I would have to agree. While it may be possible that they could refit Vedettes with Clan tech but I just cannot see them wanting too. Except for the Hell Horses vehicles are units no khan is going to waste time upgrading unless it is convenient. I'm sure the Ghost Bears have plenty of other things to concentrate their resources on.
Axel IIC . . .
The Bears have whole units of armor, BA and infantry called Phalanx . . .
And oh yeah, one of their ristars managed to win himself a bloodname . . . as a tanker.
-
Can they ? I'm serious. Think about it. The entirety of clan society is based on a don't waste anything philosophy. Only the Warrior Caste sees any extravagance. Warriors themselves are less than a fraction of 1% of all people in the Homeworlds. They have training that kills or disqualifies some 95%+ of all trainees. The other castes are left to die w/o food/medicine as soon as they can no longer keep up their quota at their job. Warriors fight over the privelage of piloting an Omnimech. Garrison units are stuck using SLDF tech because they can't outfit everyone with even Standard Clan Tech Mechs, let alone Omnimechs. And yet, they can mass produce Clan Tech all willynilly better than the IS can produce L1 Tanks ? Really ? That makes sense to you ? That the Bears have mastered producing clan tech compared to the NAIS I can buy. That they can crank out just as many Clan Versions of something compared to IS-L1/L2 Versions? Nope, I don't buy that for even a second. Something is holding them back or they would be sitting around with warehouses full of Timberwolves instead of making SFE anythings. Yet we constantly see how limited production in the clans really is in the way they have to trial against each other for any production output they can get. Yes, the Bears moved a few Million of their own people to the OZ and its likely that a few thousand of them are trained in Clan Tech Weapons Maintenance. But compare that to the BILLIONS of people that live in the FRR/GBD. Like I said above, I think its a good idea to keep some things totally IS tech based that can be easily maintained by units w/o any access to advanced training techniques. But hey, opinions vary.
Ok, I had a big response typed up but I am not going to post it because this discussion has drifted off the subject of the Vedette. All I am going to say is that you seriously need to go do some more research before you try to make claims about the Clans because this post is shot through with serious factual errors.
-
So? The Axel is a creditable main battle tank. The Vedette is popcorn.
-
So? The Axel is a creditable main battle tank. The Vedette is popcorn.
The Axel IIC is also a whole lot more expensive than the proposed Vidette upgrade thanks to the use of a fusion engine and Ferro-Fibrous armor. We are not looking to make the Vidette a critical unit with this upgrade, we are looking to boost its performance by as much as we can with as little investment as possible. Thus the bulk of the vehicle is left exactly like it was in 3025 with nothing but a quick weapon swap to improve the utility without driving the price tag through the roof like the Axel IIC did.
-
And yet the Ghost Bears have never bothered to upgrade the Veddette. Hmmmm...
-
Seriously though, I would have to agree. While it may be possible that they could refit Vedettes with Clan tech but I just cannot see them wanting too. Except for the Hell Horses vehicles are units no khan is going to waste time upgrading unless it is convenient. I'm sure the Ghost Bears have plenty of other things to concentrate their resources on.
Exactly. And funny you mentioned the Horses, the largest users of Vehicles of any clan and their clusters are overflowing w/ SLDF tech tanks still. If anyone was mass producing clan tech Vees in large #s you'd think it would be them.
-
Couple problems with that . . .
Until recently the Horses did not get camera time.
Second, outside of a pair of Mars we get very little canon look at Horse armor in action.
Third, as the Horses are supposed to be masters at armor & infantry supporting mechs . . . you would think they did a little math and realized most of the common Clan eggshells- er armor, were weaker than the old SL-era tanks.
Fourth, if you look at what the Horses did build- Epona, Enyo, and Hephastus, you see somewhat niche designs. The Epona was the hover Omni MBT (before TW rule change), one of three tanks closest to making that claim. The Hephastus is an Omni IFV, designed to bring that infantry to the battle and give it some support either with weapons or electronics. The Enyo . . . well, its niche is that it IS the BEST MBT out there . . . but its a high end model. The Clans, and even the IS, had nothing like it.
So yeah . . . the Bears making a Vedette with a Clan LB-5X makes a lot of sense, especially since the same production line making the guns can also supply the guns to go into new mechs, or fill pods for the Bears remaining Omnis. They certainly will not be putting IS AC/5s into Omnis or other new build Clan designs- even a Clan AC/5 following the established new/3050 rules.
-
The Bears have whole units of armor, BA and infantry called Phalanx . . .
Neg.
Phalanx Clusters contain Mechs, Infantry, & "a contingent of vehicles".
Likely a Trinary, but we don't know.
There are also a total of 5 of them out of 58 clusters in the touman.
Less than 10% of the clusters & likely 20-40% of each of those, so 2-3% probably, which is a little different than 20ish% of every cluster like in the Horses.
-
All I am going to say is that you seriously need to go do some more research before you try to make claims about the Clans because this post is shot through with serious factual errors.
I've been reading & playing since before the clans appeared in 1989 and own roughly 50% of every BT product and more than that of Clan products. I'd say I'm pretty well read.
What my post does have is opinion & guesswork based on the way the universe is set & the fact that there is almost no info on true #'s of what is produced out of a clan factory.
You can say that the clans crank out massive #s of combat units at clan tech quality and that is your opinion.
But, the fact that the Bears have not even replaced their losses from the Dominion War let alone Operation Revival proves that false. Look at the total # of mechs they field. 58 Clusters, at 45 Mechs each (Average/Standard). This is less than 25 Regiments in IS scale. And they lost a small portion of that in the Dominion War, and with 3 years they still hadn't replaced those losses and were using IS Tech mechs in their clusters.
I believe that Clan Tech produced by the Clans still doesn't get cranked out an IS numbers.
The FWL cranked out 240 Vulcans a year from 3050 onward.
The FS was producing 130 Valkyries a year back in 3025 from a factory that they couldn't repair.
They Bears can't replace a few clusters of losses in 3+ years.
But you have a good point, we've gotten entirely off track.
The Vedette is a cheap budget tank, its not very combat effective, even clan tech won't change that much. I'd rather not stop production for retooling into a unit that still won't be much better.
-
Neg.
Phalanx Clusters contain Mechs, Infantry, & "a contingent of vehicles".
Likely a Trinary, but we don't know.
There are also a total of 5 of them out of 58 clusters in the touman.
Less than 10% of the clusters & likely 20-40% of each of those, so 2-3% probably, which is a little different than 20ish% of every cluster like in the Horses.
Actually, no . . . according to FMWC, the Phalanxs are predominately Vehicle. Which means more than a trinary unless you are giving every other branch a binary. And IIRC, one of those was at 7 trinaries of strength.
-
Equipment production has never been the problem for Clan strength. Their bottleneck is the Sibko system's long lead time before you can replace active combat losses, otherwise they just replace training and Trial losses to maintain the status quo strength. Besides, we are not talking about post Dominion War in the mid-60s. I thought we were talking about during/after their integration with the FRR as the Jihad burns, the setting of which makes sense for them to produce multi-use Clan LB-5Xs instead of single purpose AC/5s.
Besides, the Dominion War period you cite the Bears are known to have supply disruptions because of their move.
-
Actually, no . . . according to FMWC, the Phalanxs are predominately Vehicle. Which means more than a trinary unless you are giving every other branch a binary. And IIRC, one of those was at 7 trinaries of strength.
The quote I listed was directly from their description in FMWC under the GB touman in which it clearly lists them as Mechs, Infantry, and some tanks. Nothing about them being mostly vehicles or no mechs but only infantry/BA as you said before.
That said, the specific cluster descriptions w/ symbols show tank in appearance which means at least 2 Trinaries & possibly more since it seems they in fact are a major portion of the cluster. But at 2 tanks per point it still leaves room for plenty of mechs & still have the tanks outnumber them.
-
Equipment production has never been the problem for Clan strength. Their bottleneck is the Sibko system's long lead time before you can replace active combat losses, otherwise they just replace training and Trial losses to maintain the status quo strength.
I disagree.
The Sharks for example were able to bring massive #s of retired soldiers back on line during the Jihad.
I believe its the Cobras, IIRC, that have a large pool of reserve warriors just waiting for a slot to open up because they don't have enough equipment.
Vlad opened up massive slots for retired/testdowns in is reserve forces by promoting the reserves to front line after the Refusal War.
The Falcons had entire hidden sibkos of troops that were able to funnel into combat quickly.
Lets not even get into the Spirits, Exiles, or other limited resources clans that have very tiny toumans.
The # of applicants isn't the issue, its having the units to put them in which they don't so instead they have a very small, very elite, very technologically advanced military.
makes sense for them to produce multi-use Clan LB-5Xs instead of single purpose AC/5s.
As opposed to the MANY uses of variant AC ammo, and I don't mean FS special stuff.
There are plenty of ammo types for ACs that give them lots of variant uses above even LBX?
-
Your citing the exceptions to the rule of sibko lead time? Sharks and Cobras are outside the norm, Vlad opened up for second line troops from the testdowns because he did not have the bodies to put in the machines, and the Falcons pulling sibkos out the arse is a joke.
The Warden Wolves touman is small because they lacked large volumes of replacement warriors. They put Omnis into storage. The Spirits touman shrunk because they must have units that perfectly match the organizational strength. The small toumans were not because they could not make or graduate more warriors, sibko production was generally engineered to replace internal and external Trial personnel losses.
As for the variant AC ammo . . . sure, you might need Flak (oh cluster handles this) ammo for sweeping the skies, but incendiary? flechette? Not for the Clan paradigm.
-
The bears could also just take a page from history and convert the Vedette chassis to a tank destroyer/munitions hauler ala the Hotchkiss H35.
After all, those munitions wont carry themselves, and a Vedette chassis is far superior to a J-27.
-
Is Vedette really worst tank out there? Worse than Scorpion, Galleon, or Striker? I can't agree. It's also faster than Goblin and Bulldog, and nearly just 2/3 of Bulldog's price. So line up tracked tanks, highlight those with cruise speed 5, compare their weapons, armour, and prices. Vedette might not be winner nor better than Myrmidon, but it sure competes with fusion powered Hunter.
Uses of Vedette: surely it can do something more thank kill peasants and drop helicopters. Let's consider little broader scope than beloved tactical level scenarios with 30 meters per hex. Could Vedette perform role of cruise tank? Cruise tank: british classification for fast tank that breaks through enemy frontline and attacks communications & logistical centers (doesn't attack frontline itself, that job belongs to PBI and slower & tougher infantry support tanks). Certainly some hovercrafts could be better at that, like Scimitar and Condor. Or...?
Or how about back up for 'Mechs of similar speed? Mercenary's Handbook has Wilson's Hussars recon lance with Locust, Stinger, Wasp, and Ostroc. What's the point of slow Ostroc in otherwise fast recon lance? How about this: light 'Mechs do the recon to find enemy. When enemy is found, Ostroc goes at it along with company's worth of employer's Vedettes, and game scenario starts from there. Maybe not as powerful as Rifleman and Goblin company, but certainly faster.
Mixing with other vehicles... Would make fair match with Hunter. Both have equal speeds and motive systems, Hunters fire at range, and Vedettes cover LRM minimum range. Myrmidon could be better, but it's not available in Succession Wars.
-
By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?
-
Small child. Nothing gets a tank moving across a continent like the incessant whine of "Are we there yet?".
-
By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?
Loader or second gunner, for the forward MG perhaps.
-
By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?
That's Steve. He makes the coffee.
-
Bow machine gunner. Most WW2 tanks had 5 crewmen for that reason.
-
Bow machine gunner.
How does Scorpion make do with just 2 crewmembers? ::)
-
Because for all the crap aspects of the design, it apparently has reasonable automation features to reduce the crew to a gunner and a driver.
-
How does Scorpion make do with just 2 crewmembers? ::)
They control some of the functions with their feet. Clearly.
-
They control some of the functions with their feet. Clearly.
Cabooose: "why are there 3 pedals if there are only 4 directions?"
-
Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.
-
I think the problem with the FCE version, if I remember correctly, was all the crazy stuff that came with it. If we just put a FCE in the old AC/5 or LB-5X one, I would be all in favor. Maybe even mout a MML in the turret.
-
Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.
Even if it mounts a Bombast Laser?! :o
-
Pull the bombast at a depot and replace it with something more palatable then, like a PPC or even an ERLL if you can find a way to spend the additional ton you get back. Strangely, I bet you don't have a real problem with that idea...
Then mount the laser on a Indymech for something non-combat oriented, on a vehicle where it makes more sense (note that in my honest opinion the Bombast Laser NEVER makes any sense at all...), or on a wall to really surprise the crap out of someone when they get really, really close! Or maybe as a fixed fire starter, thought I can't make that tactic work in my head without scads of petroleum agents sitting around in tanks ready to see use like in the movies...
Honestly, when Battletech started, fusion was "right around the corner" as the next best thing. Now, fuel cells are that next big thing. I have no issues with a sudden swath of FCE conventional vehicles being introduced. After all, man needs water to survive, so anywhere you find man, you find water. petroleum on the other hand isn't guaranteed to be all that universal, so in many places, cracking water for fuel makes more sense than digging it out of the ground, refining it to a multitude of grades, and only then shipping it interstellar distances.
-
Strange that no one talked about the fuel cell version. I fell in love with the variant the moment i saw it.
It has a bombast laser, and I left it at that. See the 'Pimp a shitcan' section of the article.
-
Even if it mounts a Bombast Laser?! :o
I am talking about the LB-10X version.
-
I am talking about the LB-10X version.
The current one runs an LB10 and 2 SRM2s. Nice budget critseeker.
-
The current one runs an LB10 and 2 SRM2s. Nice budget critseeker.
Yeah, the WoB Militia version. Which also happens to have a C3 slave built into it.
That kinda thing is often the last thing they expect out of your "budget tank"- having it feed a perfect shot for the rest of a lance, though you need a C3 master somewhere in there too.
-
Along with a rear-mounted SRM-2 and the original compliment of armour. It spots, it has a big gun, it's only moderately quick, and it isn't particularly well protected. Draw your own conclusions. :P
-
it's almost too bad combat vee's can't use the industrial mech variant armors. the Vedette is generic enough in concept to almost beg for a periphery cousin using commercial armor and a heavy rifle. i suppose if i want to use something like that i'm going to have to go read up on the support vee construction rules and just make something similar..
-
it's almost too bad combat vee's can't use the industrial mech variant armors. the Vedette is generic enough in concept to almost beg for a periphery cousin using commercial armor and a heavy rifle. i suppose if i want to use something like that i'm going to have to go read up on the support vee construction rules and just make something similar..
PsyckoSama's written a rules-set for 'Primitive Vehicles', and converted some XTRO primitives using his rules; you can find the rules and a TRO of those conversions over here (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,16253.0.html). By definition, they're non-canon, but they're a lot more intuitive than the SV rules and meet the other standards you cite (including choice of armours, low-tech weapons, etc.) ;)
-
I just wanted to drop my opinnion on that discussion on what changes would Ghost Bears do to their Vedettes:
If they are going to change them at all then it is the MG witch is swapped to the AP Gauss. This is why there is that full ton of MG ammo.
-
By the rules, Vedette has four crewmen. Driver, gunner, commander... what would 4th be?
If it is not the loader then it is the radio-operator/hull gunner. In scorpion tank Driver propably handles the MG and the radio and Gunner just works with the gun and looks out for the enemies when he isn't shooting anything. Not the most ideal arrangement specialy when the crew propably isn't all that well trained.
-
If they are going to change them at all then it is the MG witch is swapped to the AP Gauss. This is why there is that full ton of MG ammo.
...what? If they were going to upgrade them with a cutting-edge weapon, they'd probably yank the AC/5 for an LB 5-X and get the tonnage free that way anyway. Or just use Clan-grade LMGs to get the same performance as the MG at twice the range.
-
...what? If they were going to upgrade them with a cutting-edge weapon, they'd probably yank the AC/5 for an LB 5-X and get the tonnage free that way anyway. Or just use Clan-grade LMGs to get the same performance as the MG at twice the range.
Why not? Vedette has a few sensible uses and that AC isn't used for those (exept for the Flak duty). AP gauss on the other hand would be an improvement.
-
How commonly do the clans use special ammo types for autocannons? I mean, can they? All they have are LBX and Ultra, neither of which can use special ammo. Without that ability, leaving the standard AC on the tank makes somewhat less sense really, they might as well make the one in six investment to swap in a more commonly used and supported weapon instead of adding some sort of longer ranged anti-infantry capability instead.
If its fairly common for them to do so, maybe producing the special ammo types for the Ghost Bear second line units, than it might even be worth it to retain the older gun instead. Though I lean towards fitting a light autocannon instead, and maybe some more armor, ammo, or a second MG. All of these options would be fairly economical and technically viable really.
(I will be polite and not mention the RAC/2 option again...) O:-)
-
Actually, there's the Protomech ones, that do use a few. Flak and tracer ammo anyway, after the last TacOps errata.
-
Ah, excellent point, i had in fact forgotten about them. *Looks at Sarna real quick*
The PMAC/2 is somewhat pointless, at least here, while the PMAC/4 is almost useable here, at least in pairs.
The PMAC/8 is actually pretty decent, especially in a paired mount if it will fit. You would need at least 2 tons of ammo that way, 3 in a paired mounts. A single mount with 20 shots would be 7.5 tons, which is not bad really. A twin mount with 30 or 40 shots would weigh 14-15 tons or so...hmm, no, a bit heavy there really, and enough outgoing damage to draw entirely too much attention.
Do Protomech ACs have access to all types of specialty ammo? (I am goign to have to dig out my books now, which is unfortunately, because its 1 AM, I don't know where they are boxed at, and my GF is goign to kill me) :))
-
The problem with the Proto guns is range. You need to get in to fairly close range to use them which makes the thin skinned Vidette more of a target than it wants to be. The 5-X on the other hand has the reach to provide support from a safe distance and generate a decent anti-aircraft umbrella to make it more likely to get your budget tanks back in one piece so long as you have something else for them to support. It also saves you a ton over the original standard weapon which could do some good if you invested it in something like thicker armor, although simply adding a second ton of ammo for the AC to let you carry slugs would be an easier refit.
The APGR would also be a useful upgrade for the Machine Gun due to the range increase and you do have to do something up there with the quarter ton Clan Machine Guns anyways, but the main gun should really be the priority for any upgrade which was why I did not mention the AP mount earlier.
-
Paint your Vedettes white with little bits of black trim, and an imperial sigil on the nose. They are, from utility to population, the Star Wars Stormtrooper of the CBT verse. And they're about as useful - you can oppress some Jawas with them but not any real threat.
Imperial Stormtroopers have a bad rap based on the needs of the plot. If stormtroopers were as accurate against named characters needed to advance the story as they were against nameless mooks dressing up the set to indicate that the main characters are in danger, A New Hope would have had a different title. The only reason that the crew of the diplomatic courier resists the boarding attempt is that there needs to be a reason for Darth Vader to be striding through a corridor littered with corpses. It is evident from the resistance put up by the rebels on the Ice Planet Hoth that imperial treatment of prisoners is worse than dying in the cold from a blaster wound. Aside from interactions with named characters and cute fuzzy things, stormtroopers attacking rebels is much like clan Hellstars attacking Industrialmechs with improvised weapons.
-
Random idea for a quick-and-dirty upgrade of whatever Succession Wars-era Vedettes you may still have lying around: replace the AC/5 with an MRM 20 and spend the ton freed up that way on either more armor or on carrying more than twelve salvos depending on just how optimistic you feel (I honestly wouldn't even bother thinking much about C3 or Apollo here). Sure -- you lose some range and accuracy and the option to use alternate munitions. But it's a cheap boost in firepower for an ultimately expendable tank, and there have to be some force commanders who'd consider that worth it. ;)
-
Nice, even if that 1 ton doesn't really help much in either ammo or armor... :P
heck, the MRMs are actually pretty good weapons for Vedette in principle. Cheap vehicles coming in swarms, firing and turning tail to slash again and again if they are lucky.
-
Back in the good old days, the Vedette was a reasonable, cost-effective, multi-role tank. It had a respectable movement rating, a decent main gun with respectable damage and range, fair armor for the time, and a better than nothing secondary weapon. It did several things well. Mobile fire support, security, COIN, reactive defense, generic gun carriage, infantry tank, and poor man's MBT. But's strongest role (and primary role, in my opinion) was that of a medium cavalry tank. And it was well suited for both militia and front line duties.
Variants were not really necessary for the design back then. But the ones we got made sense considering. The AC/2-SRM variant gave the Vedette a measure of safety outside the range of those pesky PPCs. Plus, the SRM Pack offered better defense against vehicles and light Battlemechs than the machine gun offered. The laser variant was better suited as a security and COIN unit than the base model tank.
In our playgroup, the Vedette weathered the early "Level Two" era well. Most of the SLDF vehicles from TRO:2750 tended to be specialists, rather than generalists, like Succession Wars stalwarts such as the Vedette. And most of the Battlemechs from that tome had the same issue. Very few SLDF units, as presented at that time, threatened basic combat vehicles like the Vedette with an early retirement to the scrap yard. The Vedette could still hold it's own on the tabletop if played right.
Then came Clan technology, and the Vedette (like many other vehicles from TRO:3026) went from being obsolescent to obsolete almost overnight. Rolling deathtraps of reduced effectiveness that were nothing more than glorified practice targets.
The Vedette concept still had a legitimate role to play. A cost effective, medium cavalry tank armed with a ballistic weapon as a main gun, was still a valid concept. But the definitions of what constituted "cost effective" had changed. Dragging along more Vedettes to make up for horrendous losses, and keep up previous levels of mission effectiveness against Clantech wasn't what I called "cost effective". I call it throwing away good units after the bad.
Add in the fact that Inner Sphere tech Battlemechs had been upgraded to variants that rival the now-rediscovered SLDF Royal units, the lowly, classic Vedette was in a no-win situation. It was now only fit for penal units and desperate planetary governments who bought anything that moved and mounted a gun.
I figured that FASA wasn't going to update vehicles anytime soon. And what's a combined-arms playgroup to do, but take matters into their own hands.
My group's "standard" Vedette upgrade? SFE, CASE, Ultra-5 AC, extra ton of AC ammo, two standard medium lasers (forward mounted), 0.25 tons of cargo, 7.5 tons of Ferro. Simple, no bullshit, and to the point. Nothing fancy and a Vedette for the advanced "level 2" tabletop.
The 3058 "upgrades" finally came along and I wasn't terribly impressed. The New Earth Trading Company variant doesn't address the key issues that hurt the Vedette in the modern era of Battletech. The Capellan built version was somewhat better, but had some issues of it's own. Since our House Rules at the time restricted what advanced technology were available to planetary militias, these variants were primarily merc fodder and used by independent worlds/collectives in our campaigns. Our in-house upgrade remained the "front line" Vedette of choice. Militias used the older variants with simple ferro-fibrous armor upgrades.
I will admit that the LB-5X version makes a decent tank destroyer and tactical air defense vehicle. The lack of ammo does limit options, however. Cluster munitions are the way to go in these roles, but limits it's defensive capability against some other units (like heavier Battlemechs).
Don't get me started on the RAC variant. It's a thin skinned deathtrap with piss poor ammo capacity in the magazine. Three tons is what I consider the minimum for the RAC/5. But that only adds insult to the injury of inexcusably poor armor. We never play this variant.
I don't much care for the LGR variant either. But it at least has the range to help keep it alive for a time, making it passable for fire support duties. Just make sure to pair it with units with good defenses in any fire support unit.
The V-G7X is actually a nice upgrade. I especially like the dual turret arrangement and Magshots for defense against battlearmor (reflecting some of the realities of the current timeframe in Battletech). The supercharger is sweet to have for those emergencies when getting the hell out of dodge is critical, and some uber-fast modern enemy unit wants you to stay and play for just a while longer. It's kinda overkill tech-wise, considering the flavor of the Vedette. But I still like it. So does the majority of my playgroup. So, it's fast becoming a "standard" variant for campaigns set in the coming new century.
The Blakist model has promise, despite the armor and fuel cell engine. Some may question the aft-firing SRM system. But sometime rear arc coverage is a good thing, especially when all flavors of infantry love sneaking up on tanks that are not moving. It can ruin your whole day. Overall, it has glaring flaws. But this variant shows that somebody was thinking outside of the box, until some bastard bean-counter stuck his or her nose in where it didn't belong.
The custom "Doris' Delight" has my interests. It may be the "ultimate" Vedette variant that still sticks with the basic role of the tank. We have yet to playtest it. But I suspect it very well could become yet another variant for the next century in Battletech time.
With the V7, we come to a vicious full circle. Pretty much back to square one. The same point that the classic base model was at in the dawn of the Clantech era. The armor is barely an improvement over the classic base variant, and it simply moves from one low tech engine to a lighter low tech engine still dependent on vulnerable fuel depots in a campaign. The Bombast Laser is a questionable, if mildly interesting choice. The only high points is the inclusion of CASE (for future mods) and the Magshots. Results have been...mixed with this thing. But thanks to changes in our House Tech Rules over the last couple of years, the V7 will definitely be militia fodder to replace the classic models in 32nd Century play. Leaving the better, higher tech variants for frontline use.
Just my two cents worth.
-
to be honest, i'm surprised there was never an official Infantry Fighting Vehicle variant. i mean, drop the AC to a AC2, pull half the Mg ammo, and pull 8 points of armor off the rear, and you can fit in a 3 ton infantry bay, letting you schlep around a full platoon of foot infantry.
-
I have pretty much figured the thing putting the Vedette back into useful defensive duty is . . . the FCE. With it I can put on a 2nd ton of ammo for the LBX, add in a MML7 w/2t ammo, and drastically increase the armor with HFF.
-
When people use this how much AC/5 ammo do you find yourself using?
-
1 ton of precision ammo or armor piercing is usually all you need. For a Vedette to survive heavy combat for more than 8 rounds is a miracle in itself so 20 rounds is usually overkill. And if u get a decent chance to hit you might as well risk it and rapid fire the sucker and risk having it blow up on you.
If the fighting is more low intensity (IE light mechs, vees, infantry) then its prolly better to go with a standard 20 shot warload. The chances of insta dying are a lot lower so you have a greater chance of firing off your entire load.
Never use Vedettes in less than lance size, 5 pt pop gun hits arent gonna bring anything down except for bug mechs and to credibly threaten anything heavier would require numbers.
Personally my goomba of choice is still the Scorpion. Easier to go pop to make the heroes seem all bad ass and still brings the same threat factor to the table with their ac/5 pop guns.
-
I was actually thinking of a switch to a Heavy Rifle and if the low ammo would be noticed
-
When people use this how much AC/5 ammo do you find yourself using?
Generally as many as the game has rounds. Which for our group rounds out in the 14's. So when I have a lance of them on the table. I See no problem with swapping in Precision ammo. As it really helps them with hunting Skirmishers. Dropping a Nine to a Seven can really ruin a light mechs day.
(http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx77/BtechAAR/Tanks/IMG_3871-2.jpg)
I like to field the Vedette on mass. And This has generally worked well for it.
A lance will come in around 2,000 BV and if they work against one target they can bring some pain. But still allow you to control Board area.
Finding a nice crop of Trees to sit and Snipe at incoming forces before falling back to the safety of your own lines.
Or even as a flanking unit so long as the way is clear. You just can't ignore a Lance of tanks getting behind your forces.
I was actually thinking of a switch to a Heavy Rifle and if the low ammo would be noticed
Our troop has played about with the Vedette and new tech for a while.
My favourite is still a Light PPC variant.
The heavy rifle really offers little benefits to the design. The extra damage isn't worth the lack of shots. Unless you drop the MG for a second ton of ammo. Hidden in a pack of regular Vedettes it will surprise the enemy and help against those bigger targets.
Even looked into Mech mortars as an alternative. The Indirect ability can help the Tanks survivability.
-
Vedette is fast tracked tank. In its era (tech starved Succession Wars) only faster tracks are APCs and Galleon. Remember the speed and USE it! Hunter is just as fast and therefore makes good LRM support vehicle for Vedette.
-
Sorry for the Necro, but something caught my eye
Interestingly, no. Vedettes come in ICE, Fuel Cell, or XLFE, but no standard fusion engines.
Sarna lists the Magna Metals plant on Taurus not only producing the Vedette, but also the Warner 250B Fusion Engine for the Sabre ASF, so it's not as if there have not been opportunities to do so
Note: I checked the other Vedette plants, no other also produces 250 SFE's according to Sarna but Magna AREN'T listed as making it in the Vedette article
-
Sorry for the Necro, but something caught my eye
Sarna lists the Magna Metals plant on Taurus not only producing the Vedette, but also the Warner 250B Fusion Engine for the Sabre ASF, so it's not as if there have not been opportunities to do so
Note: I checked the other Vedette plants, no other also produces 250 SFE's according to Sarna but Magna AREN'T listed as making it in the Vedette article
Interesting, but not terribly surprising. The Vedette is not exactly a high end vehicle so there is no reason to put a fusion engine into it, and the XLE model is very much an outlier.
-
Which is why the FCE upgrade makes a lot of sense to increase its payload and combat capability. Honestly, a LOT of forces that use armor should be making that switch.
-
*crackle of thunder and lightning above an abandoned castle late at night*
IT'S ALLLIVVEEEE, ALLI- *ahem*
Was reminded about this due to the current Vedette thread in General Discussion; thoughts on the V9 from RS3145 NTNU?
On the one hand, a 5/8 Fuel Cell Gauss Rifle seems to be the budget MBT tankers have been clamoring for.
On the other hand, Reflective Armor and Magshots as the secondary weapons are...interesting choices, at least to me.
On the gripping hand, the only IS power that the MUL gives this to is the Lyrans, with the Wolves, Falcons, and Horses having access on the Clan end. Needless to say the half-dead hamster on the wheel in my head is working up a sweat on this one.
-
For some reason I thought Magshots were AI weapons, but a quick scan of TacOps says no. It still makes some sense as a weapon that doesn't track heat on a non fusion engine. However, yes, a MG of any type makes more sense for AI. While there is armor that is probably better suited for the tank, one can assume if it is firing from long range and they are battling a Clan enemy it makes some sense. It also half's damage from weapons that would deal heat damage and effects. Still I think there are better options out there for 3145.
-
A relatively simple upgrade would be to slap heavy ferro-fibrous on the Vedette (after it's been invented). You go from 96 to 119 points of armor, which is two more hits from a PPC.
And as for proposed Clan IIC variants, replacing the AC/5 with ProtoMech ACs could work; They'd work even better if the Bears also installed a supercharger for the engine (if they can find weight and space) to close more quickly. Clan Ferro-Fibrous could work too: From 96 to 115 points of protection.
For an AA variant, Light AC/2s could do a good job. Maybe ProtoMech AC/2s? Maybe not, there's not enough weight difference...wait. Am I reading this right? ProtoMech AC/2s can reach out to 20 hexes? Wow. Though I just noticed the Clan RAC/2 weighs exactly 8 tons, so a drop in replacement could be made at the factory.
Although to be honest the I think best upgrade is an ICE to Fuel Cell. That would free up ten tons of weight for modifications. (I think someone already mentioned this up-thread).
-
First of all, get out of here with that gripping hand silliness! Unless you have a conjoined twin or belong the to Adeptus Mechanicus, you only get two hands! Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Anyway, the V9 is what we in the AFFS call a 'Capellan Theater' variant. Those whack-a-doodles have been sticking plasma rifles on everything they can, and as you might imagine that presents a problem for conventional vehicles. These days, if you go up against the armies of Liao you had better bring your nomex underpants, and the V9 does. The MagShots aren't quite as silly as they seem either. These days Infantry tend to show up wearing five or six points of armor each, plus they tend to be able to move two and still attack. So, waiting for them to get in range of traditional machine guns more often means you are also in range of getting swarmed. That is, as I'm sure you know, super bad for tanks. The MagShots have the reach to start picking those guys apart at a nice, safe range where they can only murder you with flights of SRM's and...wait...ok, so it isn't a perfect counter, but the point stands that if you want to pick off Battle Armor before they get close enough to tear you apart, you have to start shooting when they are more than 3 or 4 hexes away.
Now, throw that tank over on the Kuritan front, and it's going to shatter. Too many missiles, autocannons, and space samurai with giant, metal hatchets. But it works against the cappies!
-
The Magshot (aka SRM1) always seemed like an attempt to copy the APGR, and failed at it. Decent enough for battlesuit guns I suppose, but I'd prefer a couple machine guns myself. That said, 5/8 fuel cell plus gauss on a 50 ton vehicle means a solid performer, unless you don't give it much ammo. As for the original...hell, I always wondered why Vedette when you could Scorpion instead.
-
Magshot is actually older than the AP Gauss. In both its forms. Both IRL and in-universe.
IIRC, the IRL reason for the AP Gauss is that the Magshot for Battle Armor was far better than anything the Clans had offer in practice, and since the Clan BA were supposed to be better, the AP Gauss was introduced, along with 'Mech scale version since Magshot had one.
It is unclear if the AP Gauss rifle is based on the Magshot in any way in-universe. Haven't seen anything indicating it is so i assume they're just similar concepts developed independently.
-
Magshot is actually older than the AP Gauss. In both its forms. Both IRL and in-universe.
IIRC, the IRL reason for the AP Gauss is that the Magshot for Battle Armor was far better than anything the Clans had offer in practice, and since the Clan BA were supposed to be better, the AP Gauss was introduced, along with 'Mech scale version since Magshot had one.
It is unclear if the AP Gauss rifle is based on the Magshot in any way in-universe. Haven't seen anything indicating it is so i assume they're just similar concepts developed independently.
In-universe, I wouldn't be surprised if the Clans developed the AP Gauss Rifle specifically to one-up the Magshot.
-
Possible but if so, it is not explicitly spelled out anywhere.
-
I'll be happy when we get record sheet for V9. It seems to be a good budget machine for merc unit.
I found using the Vehicle Effectiveness Rules from TacOps would make vehicles like the V9 more worth wild to have more of.
-
I'll be happy when we get record sheet for V9. It seems to be a good budget machine for merc unit.
I found using the Vehicle Effectiveness Rules from TacOps would make vehicles like the V9 more worth wild to have more of.
There is one. It is in recodsheets 3145 new tech, new units. It's TRO 3150's NTNU section that doesn't have record sheets. I even checked my copy of 3145NTNU just now to make sure it was there.
-
There is one. It is in recordsheets 3145 new tech, new units. It's TRO 3150's NTNU section that doesn't have record sheets. I even checked my copy of 3145NTNU just now to make sure it was there.
Oh, I thought it was in the New Tech 3150 one. I guess I'm mentally showing my age. :P
-
In-universe, I wouldn't be surprised if the Clans developed the AP Gauss Rifle specifically to one-up the Magshot.
*sings* "Anything you can do, I can do bet-ter, I am genetically bet-ter than youuuuu..."
-
YES WE CAN, we are clan, WE ARE BORN, in a can...
Wait...what were we talking about again? Oh, right, tanks.
-
YES WE CAN, we are clan, WE ARE BORN, in a can...
Wait...what were we talking about again? Oh, right, tanks.
...you owe me a fresh Pepsi.
*goes back to cleaning desk*
-
actually, the Clans encountered infantry portable gauss weapons during OP:Serpent's invasion of Huntress, and certainly during Op:Bulldog. i wouldn't be surprised if they made the AP-Gauss based off records and samples of things like the magshot (which IIRC the Stealthy-Foxes had on huntress during that fight with the falcon base) and the Tsunami man portable gauss rifle, which the DEST used when taking down the Huntress SDI facility.
-
...you owe me a fresh Pepsi.
*goes back to cleaning desk*
If I ever run into you in person, consider it done O0
Anyway, I THINK the appeal of these little gauss weapons is that they don't require much in the way of heatsinks to get them to work in non-fusion vehicles, and they have better range than traditional MG's do. Medium lasers are great and all, but when you have to pile on the heatsink tonnage to cover them, they become somewhat less efficient for filling up the last bits of tonnage in a vehicle. The Magshot and AP gauss are tiny, and they still run pretty cool. Of course, I didn't design the official variants, so I could be way off-base here.
-
If I ever run into you in person, consider it done O0
Anyway, I THINK the appeal of these little gauss weapons is that they don't require much in the way of heatsinks to get them to work in non-fusion vehicles, and they have better range than traditional MG's do. Medium lasers are great and all, but when you have to pile on the heatsink tonnage to cover them, they become somewhat less efficient for filling up the last bits of tonnage in a vehicle. The Magshot and AP gauss are tiny, and they still run pretty cool. Of course, I didn't design the official variants, so I could be way off-base here.
I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.
-
I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.
If you just want to put some damage into the other guy twin Magshots does cause ~40% more than a SRM2 (4 vs/ 2.8 ).
-
*crackle of thunder and lightning above an abandoned castle late at night*
IT'S ALLLIVVEEEE, ALLI- *ahem*
Was reminded about this due to the current Vedette thread in General Discussion; thoughts on the V9 from RS3145 NTNU?
On the one hand, a 5/8 Fuel Cell Gauss Rifle seems to be the budget MBT tankers have been clamoring for.
On the other hand, Reflective Armor and Magshots as the secondary weapons are...interesting choices, at least to me.
On the gripping hand, the only IS power that the MUL gives this to is the Lyrans, with the Wolves, Falcons, and Horses having access on the Clan end. Needless to say the half-dead hamster on the wheel in my head is working up a sweat on this one.
The V9 was designed because I was hugely offended by the bombast laser on the V7 and the reflective armor was stuck on there to annoy Clanners used to popping tanks with a PPC bolt. It was kind of a theme in TRO3145 anyway. I'm not quite sure why I kept the Magshots on there anymore.
I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.
I agree with you on the Magshot but disagree on the APGR. APGRs give you MG-grade anti-infantry power without obliging you to get into the infantry's own range. Against most non-Clan formations that aren't entrenched with certain types of lasers, an APGR-armed unit can stay at its own medium range but be at long against infantry, or possibly even out of range entirely for infantry units armed with ballistic rifles. Sure, infantry isn't necessarily that dangerous but it's still a bunch of two point hits you're a lot less likely to eat. Being engaged at ranges you can't respond to effectively is also more demoralizing to the infantry, potentially making it easier to rout them, a factor that's more important in universe than in the game. I also just plain like the idea of an itty-bitty Clan Gauss rifle for whatever that's worth to you.
On BA, the range advantages over machine guns and ammo endurance advantages over missiles give both a distinct niche.
-
I agree with you on the Magshot but disagree on the APGR.
Snipped lots of stuff
Are APGRs AI weapons like Flamers? (Don't have my books handy.)
-
Are APGRs AI weapons like Flamers? (Don't have my books handy.)
Like MGs, 2d6 damage to conventional infantry. Flamers are 3d6 or 4d6, i think.
Which makes the weapon utterly ridiculous all in all. 3 damage up to 9 hexes for half a ton with ample ammo (40 rounds per ton) and kills infantry to boot. Frankly, there is little reason to use any other anti-infantry weapon in Clan designs...
-
Like MGs, 2d6 damage to conventional infantry. Flamers are 3d6 or 4d6, i think.
Which makes the weapon utterly ridiculous all in all. 3 damage up to 9 hexes for half a ton with ample ammo (40 rounds per ton) and kills infantry to boot. Frankly, there is little reason to use any other anti-infantry weapon in Clan designs...
You're telling me! When I realized just how balls-crazy they were at killing infantry, it became the main concept behind the Shoden (LBX)- don't let the name fool you on that thing, I didn't pick it. I'd have gone with Shoden (WarCrime), or Shoden (BlackFridayCrowdClearer), but no one wants my opinions. ;) Amazing weapon- all the infantry-killing power of an MG, but able to engage from ranges that only missile-armed troops can respond at, with plenty of ammo to boot? Sign me up. (Note that this makes the Elemental version carrying them absolutely ridiculous, even with the loss of the SRM pack)
-
What loss? AP Gauss Elementals still have SRMs. Or did you mean AP Gauss Elemental (Fire) which has only one-shot SRM2 but are fire immune? Or did you mean they're dangerous even after firing the SRMs?
Ah, no matter. Both are from deepest pits of hell...
-
I think he means that after the Elemental fires off its two SRMs (And thus loses the pack), the APGR Elementals are still brutal due to the range of the weapon, unlike Small Laser armed Elementals where you can try to play the range game to render them less effective.
-
You're telling me! When I realized just how balls-crazy they were at killing infantry, it became the main concept behind the Shoden (LBX)- don't let the name fool you on that thing, I didn't pick it. I'd have gone with Shoden (WarCrime), or Shoden (BlackFridayCrowdClearer), but no one wants my opinions. ;) Amazing weapon- all the infantry-killing power of an MG, but able to engage from ranges that only missile-armed troops can respond at, with plenty of ammo to boot? Sign me up. (Note that this makes the Elemental version carrying them absolutely ridiculous, even with the loss of the SRM pack)
I'm rather proud of my own war crimes unit with these...the Hellion-E...although your 10 on the Shoden does out do my pair with four flamers...
Ruger
-
The V9 was designed because I was hugely offended by the bombast laser on the V7 and the reflective armor was stuck on there to annoy Clanners used to popping tanks with a PPC bolt.
I suspected the clan-centric reason for that from the MUL availability. My first thought on seeing the V9 (before checking the MUL) had me wonder how the tradeoff for increased vulnerability to artillery and physical attacks played out, given the greater chance of running into those in IS vs IS play.
That being said I wouldn't be too offput by being assigned one in IS vs IS.
-
It's a budget gauss that's still being hefted around by a tin can with treads. And now the tin can is important enough to put down hard and right damn now. A+ for improved capability, D- for sharply decreased longevity.
-
I had a thought regard in a Clanified version of the Vedette, especially post Jihad. What if you were to use a Large Chemical Laser as your main gun? It doesn't require heat sinks to use, is lighter than an Autocannon, and while it has a shorter range than an Autocannon or LBX, it out ranges a Protomech AC-8. Plus, you can swap out the machine gun for 3 AP Gauss and a ton and a half of ammo...
-
I don't think an AP Gauss can have a half-ton of ammo, so you'd need to either lose half a ton somewhere to gain a second ton or drop the half-ton of ammo for... something (armor I guess?), but otherwise it's an interesting thought actually. Give it to your lowest-ranked warriors, put them on anti-pirate duty, forget they exist and get back to Clanning it up.
-
Yeah, no half a ton AP Gauss ammo.
Of course, a Clanner would protect a solahma tank like a Vedette with some solahma armor. That is, solahma doing a tank desant (ie sitting on top of the tank).
Sadly, BattleTech seems to lack rules for tank desants...
-
Sounds to me like the kind of stuff you give to those militias you've set up in the Barrens. Then you ignore them aside from the occasional sale of spare parts, and checking to see if the running and screaming has started.
-
Yeah, no half a ton AP Gauss ammo.
Of course, a Clanner would protect a solahma tank like a Vedette with some solahma armor. That is, solahma doing a tank desant (ie sitting on top of the tank).
Sadly, BattleTech seems to lack rules for tank desants...
Use the Unwilling Allies rules from one of the Jihad Hot Spots books. (I think.)
-
So I'm going to say something that might seem weird, but here me out: The Vedette might be the worst design in the entire game, and yes I include the Targe in that.
The idea behind the Vedette is to take the Scorpin, which is a cheap, throw away unit, and give it more armour and speed, both of which will make it more expensive, this on a throw away unit without actually getting rid of the 'throw away' bit, that's why it's so bad, because at least the Targe had a reasonable design idea behind it.
-
I never cosnidered a Vedette a serious vehicle. I would say that militias take Scorpions. And then go for serious gear for specialists. Or go for serious gear for everything if they have the money. The vedette would have very low sales as it does not have the necessary speed that other designs (hovers) have, nor the staying power, nor the hitting capabilities. A poor design indeed.
-
So I'm going to say something that might seem weird, but here me out: The Vedette might be the worst design in the entire game, and yes I include the Targe in that.
The idea behind the Vedette is to take the Scorpin, which is a cheap, throw away unit, and give it more armour and speed, both of which will make it more expensive, this on a throw away unit without actually getting rid of the 'throw away' bit, that's why it's so bad, because at least the Targe had a reasonable design idea behind it.
I never cosnidered a Vedette a serious vehicle. I would say that militias take Scorpions. And then go for serious gear for specialists. Or go for serious gear for everything if they have the money. The vedette would have very low sales as it does not have the necessary speed that other designs (hovers) have, nor the staying power, nor the hitting capabilities. A poor design indeed.
I don't necessarily agree. Sure the Vedette is not what you use to assign to troops you want to keep around for a while, but it serves a valid role, and one that the Scorpion can't quite fill. Most importantly it can keep up with a 5/8 line (cavalry speed) and generate an extra +1THM (which might help more than the added two tons of armor over the Scorpion). It's allocation of armor also lets it take a few more chance LRM clusters or Medium lasers than the Scorpion can. Objectively I would always prefer to have a Vedette over a Scorpion, but the BV & CBill cost are the killer....
Sure for the BV and Cbills there are better units to field than the Vedette, but it does fill a nice "Expendable" niche that other units don't quite have. Hovers are better in most situations but in some terrain Tracks are superior. So if you need a dirt cheap ICE medium tank that can go 5/8? The Vedette is your tank. Also BV wise excepting the Galleon and the Scorpion they are about the cheapest thing you can field. Ironically this 50 ton tanks main competition is from the lightweight Scorpion and Galleon.....
From a force building standpoint if you are letting me simply play requisitions officer and build TO&E's using either CBills or BV as a metric I am always going to select Scorpions and Galleons over Vedettes from the standpoint that I can purchase about an entire Battalion of either of the lighter tanks for about the same price as a reinforced company of Vedettes. Looking at the BV you can get about 1.5 (Galleons or Scorpions) for the price of a single Vedette. With that said you need to have some tanks that have enough armor to take some hits and still be able to move quickly (usually hovers) but if pressed the Vedette isn't a terrible choice.
The Vedette fills the role of cheap APC infantry support tank for me, and there isn't another tracked vehicle that can really do the same thing in that era for the price. A 5 (or 2) point AC hit might not do much against a mech but a mass of Vedettes can turn ASF's or VTOLs away from your force without tying up an expensive and slow Partisan or Pike in the process.
Where the Vedette suffers is a lack of good variants. While the Scorpions LRM and SRM versions allow it to fill nearly any roles a slow budget tank needs to fill, the Vedette has no solid variants other than the AC/2 variant which really only provides a decently cheap AA option.
-
Agree with most of those points. I always thought 50 tons was to heavy. I've lightened it to 45 tons without much reduction in efficiency while saving a crewman. I've also thought of removing the machine gun and replacing it with smoke VGLs.
-
45 tons gets you another half ton of payload, so it's a plus in every way. But you can go all the way down to 34 tons and just lose 1 ton off the original - that's a pretty massive cost saving for a relatively small loss (~15% of the armor).
But it's the AC/5 that hurts the most. It really is a terrible weapon... :(
-
On the board I have encountered Vedettes, but I can't say the same for Scorpions.
But the Vedettes that I do encounter are usually those with more firepower, such as light gauss or an LBX gun.
-
I have done and faced the scorpion horde. Nasty.
-
The idea behind the Vedette is to take the Scorpin, which is a cheap, throw away unit, and give it more armour and speed, both of which will make it more expensive, this on a throw away unit without actually getting rid of the 'throw away' bit, that's why it's so bad
I think the Vedette pre-dates the Scorpion (MW1E) or at least is the same TRO (3026), so I'm not sure it was really based on it.
There is some fluff from "Price of Glory" that in universe it was based on an SLDF era tank of the same name.
I've always seen it as an alternative for better equipped militias.
Basic Militias use Scorpions from that go 4/6 & POP really easy.
Better Militias use Vedettes from NETC & Hunters from Defiance that are more nimble at 5/8 & don't POP quite so easy w/ extra armor.
-
I think the Vedette pre-dates the Scorpion (MW1E) or at least is the same TRO (3026), so I'm not sure it was really based on it.
There is some fluff from "Price of Glory" that in universe it was based on an SLDF era tank of the same name.
I've always seen it as an alternative for better equipped militias.
Basic Militias use Scorpions from that go 4/6 & POP really easy.
Better Militias use Vedettes from NETC & Hunters from Defiance that are more nimble at 5/8 & don't POP quite so easy w/ extra armor.
Both the Vedette and the Scorpion appeared in MW1E, though the scorpion was one of the three combat vehicles that didn't get individual fluff in that book.
Amusingly, the little bit of lore in MW1E suggested that the Vedette was primarily a Liao and Davion tank, so if you wanted to play lore friendly at the time and all you had was that book, you'd tend to be throwing Davion Vedettes at Kurita Manticores and Liao Vedettes at Marik Hunters (and of course Liao and Davion Vedettes at each other). Or you'd be trying to trade them in for Strikers or Pegasi.
-
So Sarna lists a new variant I don't think we've covered before, the Armor Vedette. Swap to a FCE, Ultra 10 main gun with HMG backup and HFF for armor. Very nice, but I wonder about the utility of the HMG.
-
I do like the newer art for it:
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/60/Vedette_RGilClan_v32.jpg?timestamp=20230423195912)
It's almost like a Ripsaw beefed up to Cold War tank proportions.
-
I too much prefer the new look, so many BT vehicles look silly and nonfunctional with strange proportions. It's nice to see some reasonable design added in
-
Man, canted treads and we'd have a new candidate for the H.I.S.S. tank!
-
Well over a decade since I wrote this, I just now realized that I forgot to put the vehicle weight anywhere in the article :cheesy:
-
What do you guys think of the Marik experiment with the AC10 vedette?
Is the AC/10 a better weapon? Yes, I am aware it is a dumb idea, what with fusion engines costing more money than god ... just curious about upping the firepower. Shame they didn't go for a PPC considering it has 10 sinks already, but I digress...
-
Assuming Sarna is correct (I don't have the book to verify and Sarna isn't always right) it's a fuel cell engine, not a fusion engine. If that's accurate, it's perfectly viable. Dunno if the HMG is that great, but otherwise I don't see any faults with it. Fuel cell works well with a lot of vehicles, more armor sounds great. It makes this Vedette feel more suitable for vehicle brawling and urban combat than some of the other variants. Where perhaps the HMG does get some play.
A big question mark for me since I don't have the book is where this variant is being built and what factions have access to it. If it's the usual spread of Vedette users then it's just ok. There are some other good medium tanks in the mix available to those factions and it's also competing with the existing array of Vedette variants.
If the Mariks do indeed build it (you called it a Marik experiment, so I'm intrigued) then that gets a little more interesting to me. Because the FWL doesn't have a lot of good medium tracked 5/8 tanks that they build. A lot of what you see on FWL RATs are imports like the Vedette LBX/ULTRA and even oddly the Myrmidon. They do have the Phalanx but it's slower and with an artillery cannon it's more of a direct fire support platform.
So, if its FWL built, then to me it's a lot more interesting. It fills a vehicle niche (medium, tracked, 5/8) where the FWL has long relied on imports.
If the existing Vedette manufacturers are building it and it's still an FWL import, then it's ok. But it's operating in a field where there's a lot of competition on the menu, even from other Vedette variants where a player might choose to focus on things like which has the cheaper BV.
-
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/60/Vedette_RGilClan_v32.jpg?timestamp=20230423195912)
Without knowing the actual dimensions (how much of 1 level does it use?), it may or may not be a bad design. Hull extending past the tracks is generally seen as bad on tanks.
-
Assuming Sarna is correct (I don't have the book to verify and Sarna isn't always right) it's a fuel cell engine, not a fusion engine. If that's accurate, it's perfectly viable. Dunno if the HMG is that great, but otherwise I don't see any faults with it. Fuel cell works well with a lot of vehicles, more armor sounds great. It makes this Vedette feel more suitable for vehicle brawling and urban combat than some of the other variants. Where perhaps the HMG does get some play.
A big question mark for me since I don't have the book is where this variant is being built and what factions have access to it. If it's the usual spread of Vedette users then it's just ok. There are some other good medium tanks in the mix available to those factions and it's also competing with the existing array of Vedette variants.
If the Mariks do indeed build it (you called it a Marik experiment, so I'm intrigued) then that gets a little more interesting to me. Because the FWL doesn't have a lot of good medium tracked 5/8 tanks that they build. A lot of what you see on FWL RATs are imports like the Vedette LBX/ULTRA and even oddly the Myrmidon. They do have the Phalanx but it's slower and with an artillery cannon it's more of a direct fire support platform.
So, if its FWL built, then to me it's a lot more interesting. It fills a vehicle niche (medium, tracked, 5/8) where the FWL has long relied on imports.
If the existing Vedette manufacturers are building it and it's still an FWL import, then it's ok. But it's operating in a field where there's a lot of competition on the menu, even from other Vedette variants where a player might choose to focus on things like which has the cheaper BV.
The HMG: "Let's make something that weighs more than medium laser, with less range than a small laser, that has at least half a ton of ammo-bomb and is only useful against infantry that are within swarming distance! (but not close enough to actuall swarm)."
it's a weapon customizers pull for very nearly anything else that can fit in one-and-a-half tons (IS) or one ton (clan).
realistically, that is the purpose-something for players to practice their [unit] builds removing and replacing for something that's actually useful.
this kind of applies to the Vedette as a whole-it's a vehicle you hold on to long enough to afford to trade up to something that's actually good.
why? because even in the variants, you're looking at something trying to be everything...and failing.
it even fails to excel at mediocrity in most fits...but it iS, Unlike some vehicles, better than nothing.
That said, if you have a variant in your campaign and it's got an HMG, you're better off pulling it for a "Level one standard machinegun" and adding that half ton you've saved as armor, or swapping it for two standard Level 1 machineguns. (30% more range, more infantry killn' power and lo! you can kill grunts from beyond Pistol range now!!)
just being random...
-
Assuming Sarna is correct (I don't have the book to verify and Sarna isn't always right) it's a fuel cell engine, not a fusion engine. If that's accurate, it's perfectly viable. Dunno if the HMG is that great, but otherwise I don't see any faults with it. Fuel cell works well with a lot of vehicles, more armor sounds great. It makes this Vedette feel more suitable for vehicle brawling and urban combat than some of the other variants. Where perhaps the HMG does get some play.
A big question mark for me since I don't have the book is where this variant is being built and what factions have access to it. If it's the usual spread of Vedette users then it's just ok. There are some other good medium tanks in the mix available to those factions and it's also competing with the existing array of Vedette variants.
If the Mariks do indeed build it (you called it a Marik experiment, so I'm intrigued) then that gets a little more interesting to me. Because the FWL doesn't have a lot of good medium tracked 5/8 tanks that they build. A lot of what you see on FWL RATs are imports like the Vedette LBX/ULTRA and even oddly the Myrmidon. They do have the Phalanx but it's slower and with an artillery cannon it's more of a direct fire support platform.
So, if its FWL built, then to me it's a lot more interesting. It fills a vehicle niche (medium, tracked, 5/8) where the FWL has long relied on imports.
If the existing Vedette manufacturers are building it and it's still an FWL import, then it's ok. But it's operating in a field where there's a lot of competition on the menu, even from other Vedette variants where a player might choose to focus on things like which has the cheaper BV.
The Vedette Sarna is talking about appears to actually be the "Armor" variant that first appeared in RG32. That one is a late republic design that is being built everywhere and appears to be the new standard Vedette. And aside from the heavy machine gun (and assuming your local logistics are up to supplying the fuel) seems to be a pretty nice medium tank.
The AC 10 Vedette originally appeared in Turning points Helm. It's a 3020s design that does use a fusion engine to keep the speed while also making room for the bigger gun. It's originally a Marik design using "surplus" engines from the plant on Stewart that was in service during the late succession war before going extinct by the clan invasion, then briefly reappearing in, of all places, the Escorpion Imperio during the early republic era.
In universe its main weakness was that the engines were just too valuable at the time. The tank itself wasn't terrible. It got a good armor boost compared to the practically disposable standard vedette. Personally though, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to put a fusion engine and a new gun in a vedette hull in the first place, you should commit to the bit, go for a large laser, and see what else you can get away with.
But on the other hand the intention was probably to keep the same visual outline.
-
sonds like there should be a "Marik 2" using a fuel cell+AC10 combo to make an extra cheap MBT.
-
Without knowing the actual dimensions (how much of 1 level does it use?), it may or may not be a bad design. Hull extending past the tracks is generally seen as bad on tanks.
I'm not saying it's a reasonable looking design by any means but this IMO the most the Vedette has ever looked like a actual tank vs some sort of toy or a Snow Cat with a turret. It also looks passable as a 50 ton chassis (ball park of allot of Cold War tanks) while pass art has been all over the place in regards to proportions, the first MW RPG being the worst offender:
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/8/85/Vedette_MW1stE.PNG?timestamp=20220926224527)
-
sonds like there should be a "Marik 2" using a fuel cell+AC10 combo to make an extra cheap MBT.
Eh, you have the Vedette (Cell) . . . despite the HMG complaint, it is probably the best Vedette out there.
-
I'm not saying it's a reasonable looking design by any means but this IMO the most the Vedette has ever looked like a actual tank vs some sort of toy or a Snow Cat with a turret. It also looks passable as a 50 ton chassis (ball park of allot of Cold War tanks) while pass art has been all over the place in regards to proportions, the first MW RPG being the worst offender:
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/8/85/Vedette_MW1stE.PNG?timestamp=20220926224527)
Fair enough. At least the third track of the MW1e version might help compensate for its nigh undriveable 1:1 track to wheelbase ratio and it won't ever balk on a climb because the hull hits the incline first.
EDIT: Make that a near 3:2 ratio when the optimal number is between 1:1.5 and 1:1.8.
-
Assuming Sarna is correct (I don't have the book to verify and Sarna isn't always right) it's a fuel cell engine, not a fusion engine. If that's accurate, it's perfectly viable. Dunno if the HMG is that great, but otherwise I don't see any faults with it. Fuel cell works well with a lot of vehicles, more armor sounds great. It makes this Vedette feel more suitable for vehicle brawling and urban combat than some of the other variants. Where perhaps the HMG does get some play.
A big question mark for me since I don't have the book is where this variant is being built and what factions have access to it. If it's the usual spread of Vedette users then it's just ok. There are some other good medium tanks in the mix available to those factions and it's also competing with the existing array of Vedette variants.
If the Mariks do indeed build it (you called it a Marik experiment, so I'm intrigued) then that gets a little more interesting to me. Because the FWL doesn't have a lot of good medium tracked 5/8 tanks that they build. A lot of what you see on FWL RATs are imports like the Vedette LBX/ULTRA and even oddly the Myrmidon. They do have the Phalanx but it's slower and with an artillery cannon it's more of a direct fire support platform.
So, if its FWL built, then to me it's a lot more interesting. It fills a vehicle niche (medium, tracked, 5/8) where the FWL has long relied on imports.
If the existing Vedette manufacturers are building it and it's still an FWL import, then it's ok. But it's operating in a field where there's a lot of competition on the menu, even from other Vedette variants where a player might choose to focus on things like which has the cheaper BV.
As far as the 3rd Succession War Free Worlds League Militia would be concerned, a Vedette and a Scorpion would be largely interchangeable for mission profile with the former a spruced up version. I do not really think that it would be viewed in terms of being a medium tank.
-
I think the new Vedette art makes the Vedette look like a Cobra HISS tank :grin:
I'm not sure I'd take this tank over a Scorpion. If I have an objective that needs speed, I'd consider a hovercraft or VTOL. I think the Scorpion's 4/6 movement is fine for its AC/5-ranged configurations, and with BV costs I can take 4 Scorpions for 3 Vedettes. I'm referring to the original configurations.
-
A 4/6 tank is generally not going to be able to keep up with a 4/6 mech . . . so to escort & screen the 4/6 heavy & med mech formations you need that next speed bracket. And the tracks are going to take them to places the mechs can go where hovers cannot- they only have the advantage w/ water.
-
Yeah, for me Scorpions are the defensive AC/5 tank, Condors are the offensive AC/5 tank, and the Vedette is the middle ground that takes all the other jobs. As mentioned, it's pretty decent at accompanying mechs to provide them with a bit of extra firepower and some target-choice armor*. In bigger campaigns, I could see Vedettes also being used as middle-shell patrol units. You keep them moving around the most likely approaches hostile units will use to get to something useful, and they've got the firepower to put some notable holes in a group of scouts or raiders, while the combination of good range and speed means they can stretch an engagement with fast units trying to break past them by a vital turn or two longer than a 4/6 unit could - and every turn where they can keep putting AC shells into a target or calling down artillery on them is another turn closer to rendering them unable to finish their mission, whatever it may be.
*As in, every shot that is aimed at a Vedette is one that won't hit a mech.
Just as I was about to post, another thought occurred to me: Up until the 31st-century tech renaissance made faster wheeled and tracked vees more common, the Vedette was one of only a few combat vehicles whose speed profile paired well with the classic Mobile HQ and had a weapons load suitable to protecting such an asset. Going solely from memory, only the Striker also springs to mind. The Hunter comes close, but is hampered by the lack of turret.
-
I think the new Vedette art makes the Vedette look like a Cobra HISS tank :grin:
Not remotely as much as the MHI AA Tank does.
-
Not remotely as much as the MHI AA Tank does.
I'm thinking it's not the Word of Blake or the ilClan we need to be worried about past 3150... :evil:
-
I'm thinking it's not the Word of Blake or the ilClan we need to be worried about past 3150... :evil:
Nope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3_CUO-Nnvk).
-
I have been using the AC/10 Vedette in Alpha Strike and have found it good for the PV (probably not for the Cbills).
Been playing it against a Capellan player, and he uses Po's rather often, which is very similar (slower but more armor).
However, the Vedettes, especially in the FWL 6-tank formation, really can do their work. They can hit above their capabilities with Special Ammo (armor piercing to the head is just the tank version of Boot to the Head), and they get 1 higher TMM than the Po as well as being a Skirmisher and therefore able to be in a cavalry formation. They're zippy, punchy, and frustrating - well armored enough that not even an Atlas hit can put it in Forced Withdrawal, but no so punchy or well armored to earn the attention of anything more...
...I don't want to look at the Cbills cost with the surplus Fusion engine though.
Makes a great pairing with another FWL tank experiment, the Soarece - in our campaign, the little Vedettes can use their fusion engines and some water to refuel the Soareces in operational moves, while some of their guns share ammo types (both have AC/10s) and their fast speed and annoying propensity for stinging pairs well with the utter inability of the Soarece to die, barring fantastic luck.
Motive crits are a problem, and are a showstopper for the Soarece, but it isn't trivial to shut them down totally, and their armor means you can plonk them in a place and it is Defended™.
-
Defended until your opponent decides to put some infernos into it.
-
Defended until your opponent decides to put some infernos into it.
True, crits will kill it - though infernos in AS don't crit vehicles; tandem-charge SRMs do instead (or AP rounds from auto cannons)
-
True, crits will kill it - though infernos in AS don't crit vehicles; tandem-charge SRMs do instead (or AP rounds from auto cannons)
Specialty SRMs are damned difficult to deploy in Alpha Strike in the first place. Unless you have a minimum of eight SRM tubes, you don't get the SRM special ability, and therefore can't run specialty ammo in your SRM launcher(s).
-
Specialty SRMs are damned difficult to deploy in Alpha Strike in the first place. Unless you have a minimum of eight SRM tubes, you don't get the SRM special ability, and therefore can't run specialty ammo in your SRM launcher(s).
And even if you have eight tubes, if you only have 1 ton of ammo (or Artemis) you can't run special ammo either.