Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank  (Read 12688 times)

Hazard Pay

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 434
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #30 on: 13 December 2023, 13:29:08 »
Answer: "Yes ."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13095
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #31 on: 13 December 2023, 14:08:51 »
What is scary is with Medium-Chem lasers you could recreate the Original & the LRM on the same chassis basically.  (Okay half the LRMs but still)

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Gorgon

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 795
  • The little duchy that could
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #32 on: 13 December 2023, 14:46:10 »
I remember getting the same feeling when the Phoenix mechs were still new, and I could see the looks on people's faces when I said "My Stinger will fire its PPC at...".

It was a Light PPC, but still... :cheesy:

It's all about getting into your opponent's head. It may not win you the battle, but seeing their face drop even for a moment is a win in and off itself.
Jude Melancon lives!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25850
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #33 on: 13 December 2023, 16:16:57 »
What is scary is with Medium-Chem lasers you could recreate the Original & the LRM on the same chassis basically.  (Okay half the LRMs but still)

Pretty much everyone has access to Clan LRMs by the Dark Age, but further discussion should go to the Fan Design forum.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Minemech

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2765
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #34 on: 13 December 2023, 17:32:02 »
I know that mechanically it's pretty much the same as firing 8 Clan ER mediums, but there's something about saying "And I fire my 8 large lasers at this unit" that is so much more satisfying.
In urban combat, a one damage point difference can matter a lot. The Ontos has always been a master of urban combat, this shows that the developers have never forgotten that. 

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6959
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #35 on: 14 December 2023, 01:17:44 »
Now how many medium chem lasers + ammo could you put on the Ontos?
If you want to keep the twin LRM racks and add CASE,  22 MCLs. Slot limits! :grin:

XenopusTex

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 52
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #36 on: 31 January 2024, 00:16:09 »
While the "thing" is named for the US Ontos, it reminds me more of the Soviet 1K17, due to the laser armament, though the Soviet machine wasn't for melting targets into slag.

In any event, I've played this a few times, and find that it, like many short-ranged platforms is lacking.  Orthogonal street grids = problems.  Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't find those type units to be unholy terrors within the concrete jungle.  They might get an ambush in, but once the trap is sprung, they can be pinned down via sight lines and pounded to scrap at range.  Call me crazy, but I think I'd rather have a Schreck or a DI Morgan (yeah, I know, not really faction appropriate) maybe even a Partisan or an Alacorn.  If you're going to crush your infrastructure with bloated tanks, at least use something that can reach out and tickle at a couple of city blocks.  I truly might be doing it wrong, but I find next to no place for a massive tank that can be out ranged by varmint calibre weapons in my forces.  Having the ability to rack up damage only matters if you can: 1) hit out to the target's range; and 2) hit accurately.  Please hold still while I inch my way to you...

The base Ontos reminds me of the battle of Coronel and the battle of the Falklands in WWI.  The "Ontos" would have been the British cruisers under Craddock at Coronel... slow, bristling with not so long-ranged guns, and pounded to bits by the more heavily gunned German cruisers under von Spee.  At the Falklands, it was the Germans who were the "Ontos" being out gunned, out ranged, and out sped by the British battlecruisers.  Having shorter ranged guns can really, really ruin your day.  You can't kill what you can't effectively hit. 

With regard to the LGR version, it suffers from having two heavier weapons that really don't carry their weight in damage.  Got one of these in a force, and can't say it did anything remarkable.  The range is nice, but I can't help wondering if better weapons wouldn't have helped.  The significant short/medium range bands are nice, but with the terrain restrictions of vehicles and movement speed roughly equal to a hobbled sloth, getting it to that prime firing position is a challenge.  Admittedly, the one thing I haven't tried with this version is urban combat, where it can use its range bands to cover streets/avenues/etc.  All in all, feels like with a platform of its heft, something far nastier could have been built on it. 

Interesting unit concept, but unlike other higher damage short range units (SRM carrier, I'm looking at you), the Ontos can't shoot-n-scoot.  The base one makes me think of a semi-mobile AT mine.  The LGR one makes me think of a harassing unit used to try to draw attention away from other units. 

JadeHellbringer

  • Easily Bribed Forum Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21744
  • Third time this week!
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #37 on: 31 January 2024, 08:12:52 »
Something to consider is that units like Alacorns, Morgans, Rhinos, etc. pack a long-range punch... and then tend to struggle a little when someone gets up in their faces. I personally watched an Alacorn (HGR version) get absolutely gobsmacked years ago in a game by a Ghost Bear-owned Koshi that just stayed right next to it, beating on it every turn- when the Alacorn had the initiative advantage, the Koshi simply hopped away out of danger, then hopped back over to keep working on it- made a lot easier when the tank's treads were destroyed. That's not fun for the tankers.

Know what makes fast harassers like a Koshi, or Savannah Masters, or... well, Harassers... think twice about something like bum-rushing stuff like that? A hefty close-range nightmare unit as a bodyguard. Demolisher, Hunchback, ONTOS... I know I'll give it a few before I run in to try to pummel an Archer's rear armor if it means exposing myself to that disco-ball on treads.

That's the thing to remember on the Ontos- like many units, it's not really designed to be a lone gun. It's designed to be part of a unified force- and there, it really starts to shine. (That it's an FWL unit, a faction that relies heavily on inter-linked forces, only reinforces this)
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25850
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #38 on: 31 January 2024, 13:51:22 »
Yeah, tanks especially do poorly on their own.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Starfury

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 791
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #39 on: 31 January 2024, 22:06:02 »
The Ontos is one of my favorite assault tanks. It's cheap, has lot of guns, and most of the variants are well designed (which is saying something for Marik). Pair it up with other Ontos and Fortune tanks, amd you cam dominate a city. The Chemical laser one is hilariously over the top.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13095
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #40 on: 02 February 2024, 12:06:31 »
Something to consider is that units like Alacorns, Morgans, Rhinos, etc. pack a long-range punch... and then tend to struggle a little when someone gets up in their faces. I personally watched an Alacorn (HGR version) get absolutely gobsmacked years ago in a game by a Ghost Bear-owned Koshi that just stayed right next to it, beating on it every turn- when the Alacorn had the initiative advantage, the Koshi simply hopped away out of danger, then hopped back over to keep working on it- made a lot easier when the tank's treads were destroyed. That's not fun for the tankers.

Know what makes fast harassers like a Koshi, or Savannah Masters, or... well, Harassers... think twice about something like bum-rushing stuff like that? A hefty close-range nightmare unit as a bodyguard. Demolisher, Hunchback, ONTOS... I know I'll give it a few before I run in to try to pummel an Archer's rear armor if it means exposing myself to that disco-ball on treads.
And this is why Saladins were invented  :evil:
To make every other fast moving backstabber think long & hard before it plans an endzone run.
Nothing like an 8/12 + AC20 w/ Precision Ammo to make some Locust, Preta-A, Firemoth, etc etc do the "hurry up & wait" trying to time that run just right.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10501
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #41 on: 02 February 2024, 12:29:48 »
Yeah, tanks especially do poorly on their own.

this is true consistently.  a  Lone Tank is an expensive target, not a combat asset.  Conventional vehicles are team players, regardless of the type, getting isolated is BAD.

It used to be worse for solos.  Good tank/conventional players know two basic things:

1. if you're relying on a single unit to fill a critical role, that unit will die early, or be cut from the formation and rendered useless by an alert opponent.  Thus, you always want a backup.

2. You're going to take losses, plan for it, assume it when you're selecting your combat units, some, most, or all of your conventional units WILL be mission-killed at minimum.

even with the added on hit location tables and nerfed Inferno rules to keep them alive, tank play is not like 'mech play, the fundamental assumptions in 'mech play absolutely do not apply, because you WILL  lose units, whereas 'mechs might well make it all the way through a scenario with lots of damage but still alive, tanks will be destroyed.  Maybe some, maybe all.

Plan accordingly.

The Ontos is a good 'pinch point holder', that is, like other slow tanks, it's not a maneuver unit and you'll suffer a lot if you try to play it like one.  what you want to do, is move it into a spot where approaching sight-lines are restricted, and routes of approach are confined, and park it.  Like every other assault class tank, the Ontos doesn't benefit from moving, but under TW rules, it CAN benefit from sitting still and denying or complicating an approach.

especially given the redundancy of the weapons fit.  Eight medium Lasers is eight times a laser has to be put out of commission to disarm it, it won't run out of laser ammo, so for that nine hexes, up to forty points of damage per turn is possible.

in five point groups, though you do have to roll a lot of 'to hits'.

This is up there with a Demolisher, except that the Demolisher CAN and if it isn't killed, likely WILL run out of ammo.

The Ontos is, therefore, a "Turret on tracks loaded with lasers."  Using it like a quickie bunker is the killer application for it, and with a 3/5 movement curve, the best use for it given the hit location tables vehicles have, and the penalty to gunnery for flanking (which, in simplest terms can be seen as "If you're flanking you're still more likely to be hit, than you are to actually hitting anything-even if they're stationary")
Something to consider is that units like Alacorns, Morgans, Rhinos, etc. pack a long-range punch... and then tend to struggle a little when someone gets up in their faces. I personally watched an Alacorn (HGR version) get absolutely gobsmacked years ago in a game by a Ghost Bear-owned Koshi that just stayed right next to it, beating on it every turn- when the Alacorn had the initiative advantage, the Koshi simply hopped away out of danger, then hopped back over to keep working on it- made a lot easier when the tank's treads were destroyed. That's not fun for the tankers.

Know what makes fast harassers like a Koshi, or Savannah Masters, or... well, Harassers... think twice about something like bum-rushing stuff like that? A hefty close-range nightmare unit as a bodyguard. Demolisher, Hunchback, ONTOS... I know I'll give it a few before I run in to try to pummel an Archer's rear armor if it means exposing myself to that disco-ball on treads.

That's the thing to remember on the Ontos- like many units, it's not really designed to be a lone gun. It's designed to be part of a unified force- and there, it really starts to shine. (That it's an FWL unit, a faction that relies heavily on inter-linked forces, only reinforces this)



You've just pointed out the killer example of why you don't send tanks out by themselves, and why flanking on a 3/5 is bad for the tank, where it's not such a big deal for a 'mech.  (Being hit hurts a lot more on a tank, even if the damage is low...unless you're parked.  Being Parked is awesome, most of the incoming damage will hit motive systems you're not even using, or hae to be exhausted against the armor like a fortress wall.)

The first mistake, was taking an Alacorn without...another Alacorn at medium or short range to scrub your back.  Tanks with range (Alacorn, etc.) work better in pairs, with maybe two to three hexes separation depending on minimum range.  (thus, why you only need "Dedicated bodyguards" in scenarios where you also run 36 designs in a 36 member battalion.  Generalists in quantity is how to make 'mech minmaxers pull hair from their heads in frustration.)

aside from the killer application of 'Stationary Obstacle', if you MUST try to maneuver with slow tanks, have your plan figured out before the first initiative, and only make minor adjustments-that is, keep moving.  You should still refrain from flanking as much as possible, but move every turn with every thing you can move, and use that movement to apply pressure.



"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13095
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #42 on: 02 February 2024, 12:48:47 »
This is up there with a Demolisher, except that the Demolisher CAN and if it isn't killed, likely WILL run out of ammo.

I'll just point out that if the Demo is performing in the "BodyGuard" role, its probably not even getting to take a shot.
The Fear factor should be keeping backstabbers away.

I ran a Demo in the middle of LRM Carrier Platoon & loaded it w/ 1 ton of Standard & 3 of Precision for a total of 11 shots & still had half my shots left at the end of the game.

The enemy strikers didn't like their odds of making it past the Victor, Demolisher, & Saladin patrolling the back field.
It was a bigger BG unit than normal but the freedom to let 240 LRMs rain fire every turn freely was felt downrange.

I'm a fan of MML models since you can toss them in with your long range boats & be both BG & Missile Boat at the same time.
I had a platoon of Arrow Carrier, Partisan-LRM, Ontos-MML, & Alacorn-VI that never had much more than a Motorized Infantry platoon as back up security while the mechs went out to skirmish.  The differing ranges of each tank allowed them all to support the battle at range but also played heck w/ enemy Hovers/LightMechs trying to get close to end the "rain".
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CarcosanDawn

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 97
Re: Vehicle of the Week: Ontos Heavy Tank
« Reply #43 on: 24 February 2024, 21:46:12 »
I play Alpha Strike as the 346th Heavy Tank Regiment in the 5th Fusiliers of Oriente, but I will say the FUSION Ontos variant at least is absolutely devastating in 3025. No range? No problem; you have very nearly the throw weight of the Catapult with LRMs (factoring in ammo bins over the long haul) for cheaper BV, and are better up close to boot. Yes, you have less mobility, but range alone isn't scary with two LRM-10s.