Author Topic: my carrier, what do you think? based off the New Sytris class (Read 8877 times)

Zureal · « **on:** 16 April 2012, 07:34:10 »

ok, now my question is, how would i add more cargo ? would u just take out some weapons? I seriously doint want to make it slower :/ im hoping to find a way to give it at least 80k of cargo, or something close to that :/ any advice? or is it good as it?

as a side note , im keeping to as much as lvl 1 tech as i can minus the HPG and LF batteries

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2

Mass: 980,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 894 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,198 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
11 AR10 Launcher
21 NL55
2 Heavy NPPC
40 Large Laser
32 LRM 20
40 Medium Laser
14 NAC/25
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier)
Mass: 980,000 tons

Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 235,200.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 20) 443,450.00
Lithium Fusion Battery 9,800.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 5) 79.00
Structural Integrity: 75 73,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 4,000 Single 3,270.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 20,400.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 2,450.00
Fire Control Computers: 4,960.00
Food & Water: (210 days supply) 852.00
Hyperpulse Generator: 50.00
Armor Type: Standard (636 total armor pts) 1,469.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 109
Fore-Left/Right: 108/108
Aft-Left/Right: 108/108
Aft: 95

Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (60) with 4 doors 9,000.00
Bay 2: Small Craft (12) 2,400.00
Bay 3: Fighters (60) with 4 doors 9,000.00
Bay 4: Small Craft (12) 2,400.00
Bay 5: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 25,783.00
Bay 6: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 25,750.00

DropShip Capacity: 8 Docking Hardpoints 8,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2: (145-meter diameter) 200.00
Life Boats: 120 (7 tons each) 840.00
Escape Pods: 40 (7 tons each) 280.00

Crew and Passengers:
53 Officers (53 minimum) 530.00
190 Crew (188 minimum) 1,330.00
67 Gunners (67 minimum) 469.00
20 1st Class Passengers 200.00
120 Marines 600.00
360 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 AR10 (30 KW, 30 WS, 30 B)Nose * * * * 60 4,350.00
3 NL55 Nose 17 17 17 17 255 3,300.00
2 Heavy NPPC Nose 30 30 30 30 450 6,000.00
5 Large Laser Nose 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Nose 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Nose 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)FL/R * * * * 80 5,800.00
3 NL55 FL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
2 NAC/25(40 rounds) FL/R 50 50 50 -- 340 12,048.00
5 Large Laser FL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) FL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser FL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
3 NL55 L/RBS 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
2 NAC/25(40 rounds) L/RBS 50 50 50 -- 340 12,048.00
5 Large Laser L/RBS 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) L/RBS 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser L/RBS 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)AL/R * * * * 80 5,800.00
3 NL55 AL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
2 NAC/25(40 rounds) AL/R 50 50 50 -- 340 12,048.00
5 Large Laser AL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) AL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser AL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
2 NAC/25(40 rounds) Aft 50 50 50 -- 170 6,024.00
5 Large Laser Aft 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Aft 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Aft 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%) 9,800.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 4,277 980,000.00
Tons Left: .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 26,493,136,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 169,501
Cost per BV: 156,300.77
Weapon Value: 68,729 (Ratio = .41)
Damage Factors: SRV = 5,400; MRV = 5,101; LRV = 3,744; ERV = 1,422
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 626,358
(104,324 Structure, 320,045 Life Support, 201,989 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 687,375 (110% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable

wundergoat · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 April 2012, 12:49:42 »

I like the overall feel of the ship, though I probably would have merged or mixed up the standard scale laser batteries. What doors are the small craft using?

Zureal · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 April 2012, 20:54:05 »

Quote from: wundergoat on 21 April 2012, 12:49:42

What doors are the small craft using?

i had to put that way, but emagine you have a large bay with all the fighters, the small craft use the same doors as the fighters. to truthfully they fighter bays and small craft bays are realy just one big bay. its a carrier primarily, so it worked that way in my mind.

Quote from: wundergoat on 21 April 2012, 12:49:42

though I probably would have merged or mixed up the standard scale laser batteries.

what you mean? by just having one kind of standard laser? instead of my LL/ML combo?

Quote from: wundergoat on 21 April 2012, 12:49:42

I like the overall feel of the ship

i agree, the only thing that vexis me is that i couldent get a bigger cargo fraction :/ id have to sacrifice cap weapons or make it bigger overall.

BritMech · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 April 2012, 05:02:12 »

Quote from: Zureal on 21 April 2012, 20:54:05

i had to put that way, but emagine you have a large bay with all the fighters, the small craft use the same doors as the fighters. to truthfully they fighter bays and small craft bays are realy just one big bay. its a carrier primarily, so it worked that way in my mind.

From the way I read the rules on Cargo Bays, you can't allocate the Bay Doors to both Fighters and Small Craft without some tweaking.

TM, pg 209, Bay Doors "...should have at least one Bay Door per Transport Bay."

TM, pg 239, Transport Bays "...must separate any and all Transport Bays by type..."

So having the Small Craft use the doors on the Fighter Bay isn't allowed. According to TM, Bays are separate and need their own doors. But I have proposed one exception in the Errata.

Fighter cubicles are 150 tons, and Small Craft cubicles are 200 tons. Small Craft can't use Fighter cubicles, but Fighters can use Small Craft cubicles. So to use the same doors, simply allocate all Fighter cubicles as Small Craft cubicles, and allow the Fighters to use the Small Craft cubicles.

Now, this will take up extra tonnage, but saves on Bay Doors.

Your other option is to reduce the number of doors on the Cargo and allocate them to your Small Craft bays.

Zureal · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 April 2012, 23:22:05 »

this is why i based it off the New Sytris WS on page 221 of Reunifaction War. it has fighters and small craft in 1 bay. so to me that made it ok to make it how i did :P

BritMech · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 April 2012, 08:15:15 »

Quote from: Zureal on 22 April 2012, 23:22:05

this is why i based it off the New Sytris WS on page 221 of Reunifaction War. it has fighters and small craft in 1 bay. so to me that made it ok to make it how i did :P

Like I say, Fighters and Small Craft sharing Small Craft cubicles in a single bay makes sense. But it does alter the tonnage. I haven't got that book so I can't do the calculations on it.

However, from here http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,16894.html

Paul says that 0 Bay Doors is a printing error, and that the TM pg 196 does say that every Bay must have 1 Door assigned to it.

Now, TM says DropShips, and makes no mention of JumpShips, WarShips and Space Stations, but I think that was a case of (a) brevity and (b) TM being written before the construction rules for JS/WS/SS were finalised.

I would say that it is best to put a Bay Door on every Transport Bay now, so that if/when the rules are changed/clarified, you are covered and don't have to revise the designs. If the Reunification War has any designs with 0 Bay Doors on a Transport Bay, then I would suggest reporting them in the Errata section. I know that one of the SO examples says you can have Small Craft use Fighter Bay Doors, but that runs contrary to the TM rules that Paul highlighted, and has been reported as Errata.

Going through a lot of the designs, in TRO they will split Bays apart by type, and the only examples I have to hand (TRO3085) put each different Transport Bay with it's own doors, the exceptions being Fighters/Small Craft, which share a Bay and hence the Doors. I haven't worked out if that is because they are using the 200 ton cubicles for both, but I expect it is.

Zureal · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 April 2012, 12:52:08 »

as much as you are correct, ill keep the bays as is for my own flavor, after all, its a CARRIER, u doint see differint lifts for differint planes in todays carriers do you? :P lol, just humor me on this point.

also, ill then lose even MORE cargo space :( im already at a point that i doint want to be in that regard .

BritMech · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 April 2012, 20:04:07 »

Quote from: Zureal on 23 April 2012, 12:52:08

also, ill then lose even MORE cargo space :( im already at a point that i doint want to be in that regard .

Well given your original goal of more cargo space, the only way to achieve that is by cutting something else, and all you can cut are weapons, armor, engine or bays.

120 Fighters does seem a lot for so few Doors. At 4 Doors per Bay, you are launching (safely) 16 Fighters per turn, so the last Fighters aren't out of the WarShip until turn 8, assuming you start launching on the first turn and don't need to get into position.

You can put another 6 Doors on it. Now, 1 apiece for the Small Craft and 2 each on the Fighters will have a drastic effect for such large Bays. Stealing a Door from each Cargo Bay even more so. 7 Doors each means 28 Fighters, all launched by turn 5. Go even further and consolidate the Small Craft Bays, do the same with the Cargo. 8 Doors per Fighter Bay and you are done launching by turn 4, and you could even up the capacity to 128 Fighters. That is a serious swarm.

Weapons are usually the best place to strip, since your Fighters are going to be the main feature. So I would look at the Capital weapons, since they have the largest tonnage, and the biggest portion of Crew Cabins attached to them. For 80k cargo you need to strip off almost 30k tonnage. That's going to be almost all the NAC/25s. Don't forget to update the heat as well as cabins and crew. Since your focus is on the Fighters, you want to have weaponry that will keep them alive since a Carrier's role is to deliver Fighters, protect them and retrieve them. More AA guns instead of Capital will free up the tonnage you want, and let you keep more Fighters as they come back to you.

Jimmy B · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 April 2012, 20:53:23 »

You could always knock off a few Dropship Dock Points.
8 is really high. 4 would still be impressive for a carrier.

Zureal · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 April 2012, 05:25:05 »

hmm... ok, im willing to go down to 6 collars, its a carrier after all XD lol, also, i thought the max bay doors for launching stuff was 8 :/

as to stripping cap weapons, its ment as a ship that can support its craft, but also defend itself against other capships, as it is i think its got the armerment of a cruiser. or am i wrong?

Zureal · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 April 2012, 05:35:44 »

ok, mostly i reduced docking points to 6, threw out the NAC 25s for single NAC 30s in each arc but front. almost doubled the cargo capacity, just over 85k cargo now. do you think this is enough for cargo? or do u think it needs more? also, do you think my point defenses are adaquat? for anti fighters and anti light DS duty?

also, the max launch bay doors is 8 right? cuz HMA wont let me add more than 8 :(

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier) 3
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2

Mass: 980,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 894 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,198 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
11 AR10 Launcher
21 NL55
2 Heavy NPPC
40 Large Laser
32 LRM 20
40 Medium Laser
7 NAC/30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier) 3
Mass: 980,000 tons

Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 235,200.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 20) 443,450.00
Lithium Fusion Battery 9,800.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 5) 79.00
Structural Integrity: 75 73,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 3,700 Single 2,970.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 20,400.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 2,450.00
Fire Control Computers: 1,012.00
Food & Water: (212 days supply) 852.00
Hyperpulse Generator: 50.00
Armor Type: Standard (636 total armor pts) 1,469.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 109
Fore-Left/Right: 108/108
Aft-Left/Right: 108/108
Aft: 95

Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (60) with 4 doors 9,000.00
Bay 2: Small Craft (12) 2,400.00
Bay 3: Fighters (60) with 4 doors 9,000.00
Bay 4: Small Craft (12) 2,400.00
Bay 5: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 37,775.00
Bay 6: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 37,775.00

DropShip Capacity: 6 Docking Hardpoints 6,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2: (145-meter diameter) 200.00
Life Boats: 90 (7 tons each) 630.00
Escape Pods: 40 (7 tons each) 280.00

Crew and Passengers:
52 Officers (52 minimum) 520.00
190 Crew (189 minimum) 1,330.00
60 Gunners (60 minimum) 420.00
20 1st Class Passengers 200.00
120 Marines 600.00
360 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 AR10 (30 KW, 30 WS, 30 B)Nose * * * * 60 4,350.00
3 NL55 Nose 17 17 17 17 255 3,300.00
2 Heavy NPPC Nose 30 30 30 30 450 6,000.00
5 Large Laser Nose 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Nose 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Nose 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)FL/R * * * * 80 5,800.00
3 NL55 FL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) FL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser FL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) FL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser FL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
3 NL55 L/RBS 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) L/RBS 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser L/RBS 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) L/RBS 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser L/RBS 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)AL/R * * * * 80 5,800.00
3 NL55 AL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) AL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser AL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) AL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser AL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) Aft 30 30 30 -- 100 3,524.00
5 Large Laser Aft 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Aft 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Aft 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%) 9,800.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 3,787 980,000.00
Tons Left: .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 21,621,196,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 141,648
Cost per BV: 152,640.32
Weapon Value: 63,126 (Ratio = .45)
Damage Factors: SRV = 4,388; MRV = 4,075; LRV = 2,923; ERV = 1,106
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 579,809
(104,365 Structure, 319,645 Life Support, 155,799 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 670,050 (116% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable

BritMech · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 April 2012, 06:47:09 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 05:35:44

also, the max launch bay doors is 8 right? cuz HMA wont let me add more than 8 :(

HMA is out of date as far as Strategic Operations is concerned.

You can have as many Bay Doors on a Bay as you want, provided every Bay has at least one Door. So on a 2.5m ton WarShip, nothing to stop you having 33 Doors on a Bay and launching 66 Fighters in one go.

If you want to work around the HMA limit, split the Fighter Bays and throw on the Doors that way. Provided you have the numbers showing your launch capability you should be fine.

85k cargo? Sounds plenty. Building a WarShip is part Construction Rules, part fluff for the scenario you have. A Carrier isn't a Cap Killer, at least not directly. It is a bulk Fighter transport. Weapons should be AA to provide cover for the Fighters, since it will (ideally) deploy them outside the range of Cap weapons. Therefore only enemy Fighters are going to be in range to attack it, and so AA makes sense.

Thick armor also makes sense, because if the Carrier is destroyed then a lot of Fighters are going to be stranded. So the WarShip doesn't need to punch big, but able to take a few big punches.

Speed isn't really needed either. A Carrier will sit at the back of a flotilla, waiting for the Fighters to return and being used as a secondary defender on the flank if needed. So the 4/6 could even be reduced to a 3/5 if space is needed.

The Kirishima is a 790,000 ton Cruiser with just 4,235.5 tons of cargo space. No mention of Spare Parts, so they must be part of that allotment. The Kyushu is a 630,000 Frigate with 61,245.5 tons of cargo space. So the amount of cargo you allocate your WarShip doesn't have any kind of formula attached.

Why would a Carrier need cargo space? Aside from Spare Parts for the Carrier and Food for the inhabitants, what else would it carry? Ammo for the weapons is already taken care of. But what about spare parts and ammo for the Fighters? Quite likely they will need space for that. But 85k cargo means every Fighter would have 708 tons of ammo and spares. You could have a lot more Fighters for that kind of space, and still allocate 100 tons of ammo and spares to every Fighter.

Don't forget that the WarShip Tour of Duty is dictated by the amount of fuel you carry and the food on board. So if it can only last 30 days before docking for resupply, why carry eight months of ammo for the Fighters? 20,000 tons of fuel is 50,000 fuel points, and 506 burn days. Since you only have 212 days of food, why have twice that much fuel? 14,425 tons keep you out for 365 days. 8,000 keeps you out for 202 days. Reduces the fuel pumps to 160 tons.

And we come back to cargo. A 200 day ToD doesn't need so much cargo unless they are on a supply mission. But that kind of job would usually go to a JumpShip, laden with DropShips that actually carry the cargo, escorted by WarShips if necessary.

I don't think any WarShip needs a huge cargo allotment outside of Spare Parts, Food and Fuel. That is the job of DropShips and JumpShips. WarShips fight. So why have 10% of the ship dedicated to something other than fighting?

I read a post recently that summed it up nicely. It asked the question "Does it have a gun on it because it needs one, or because this is BattleTech, and everything has a gun on it?" If you actually stop and think about the role of the object you are designing, you might realise that a lot of the design decisions you make are not necessary. An AgriMech doesn't need a Machine Gun Array. A bus doesn't need a PPC. So why dedicate large chunks of space to hauling freight on a WarShip?

Zureal · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 April 2012, 07:20:01 »

well the reasoning behind a larg cargo amount came from looking at modern day carriers, they have a large cargo amount on them but constantly need both refuling and even more frequintly rearming for ammo. its ment to be able to go on a decent spaced mission for at least 6 months, even behind enemy lines if it were if it had to. plus its keeping alot of fule for the 6 assault droppers it will be carrying. and also sens it will rarly be alone, most times extra for its "fleet".

also, it has some decent cap weapons because its realy not that hard for a enemy WS to run at you and start shooting you, you have to be able to defend yourself. and EVERYONE is going to know that YOU are the biggist target they wana kill. furthermore, not only the fighters, but all the equipment and ammo, ect for the marines on board, and for there various tasks, medical supplies, and much more. those things can be gone threw QUICKLY in a active campain.

* as a side note, the speed i gave it was so that even should a enemy break threw, it can USUALY eather outfight it or outgun it , witch, considuring all those fighters and droppers its carrying, is a good thing *

waw, the Nimits class carries 3 MILLION gallons of fule just for its aircraft 0_o THATS alot. but only enough food for about 90 days

Jimmy B · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 April 2012, 08:37:11 »

I like it, although I also think the cargo is a bit high.
I tend to break it down when determining cargo.
How much does the carrier need?
How much do the dropships need that will be attached?
How much do the fighters and marines need that it carries?

You said you want it to have 6 months in the field? So I would use
that as your marker. Fuel, and Ammo for 6 months,
for the carrier, 6 Dropships, 24 Small Craft, and 120 fighters.
There is already space accounted for 212 days of Food, which
is about 7 months. So you could even use that as the Marker.

I left the Math for you to do , but Im guessing you could lose some
cargo space and still be covered. Giving you some more tonage
for weaponry, Or even more fighters, although 120 is a nice number.

Jimmy B · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 April 2012, 08:50:18 »

Hmm more thoughts

Another thing that would help, is realizing that your Dropships do not have
have more capacity than the Warship. 2 Mammoths would cover this at nearly 38k
tons each. And you want a couple open, so 4 hardpoints covers you.

Although, you are building a carrier, so you could make it a true carrier,
adding 2 Vengeance class dropships increasing your small fighter total to 200
and adding 6 more small craft. ;D which makes 6 docking hardpoints legit.

And then you would want to account for the 212 days of Fuel, Ammo, and Food for
those as well. Possibly making your high cargo capacity necessary. :)

Fireangel · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 April 2012, 09:19:33 »

You might consider revising the AR-10's; all those missiles suck up a lot of real estate; think about it: this is a carrier that already has extreme-range capital weapons. You need to have a minimum of 10 shots per launcher; this does not mean 10 shots of each type!

Barracudas are best used against fighters and fighter squadrons at range.
White Sharks are the best anti-warship missiles due to their high chance of critting.
Killer Whales are good for packing Santa Ana nukes; unless packed in massive bays, conventional KW's are generally a poor choice for anti-warship work (compared with White Sharks).

Zureal · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 April 2012, 09:31:58 »

well, the plan was always to carry at least 4 other droppers, preferably assault or carriers themselvs.

as for the AR-10s, well i see them as a pretty good all round weapon, and again, there will be plenty of times that u have to kill fighters, or dropships, or enemy WS.

the magazines are deep because im looking at it from a "in character" vewpoint, not a "game" viewpoint. the ship might see multiple actions in a single tour, or even just be in a vary long engagment, necessitating the deep reserves. as there have been plenty of storys ware a single fight might take hours or even days to compleat.

for me personaly i like to give any ship i make have legs, so i can send them on a long range mission if need be or somesuch. the way i see it, this ship is pretty good minus the crappy 8 doors for fighters :( but thats a problem with HMA and not me :P

also, when it comes to cargo, i was thinking maby of making a "machine shop" bay, they have them on modern aircraft carriers, why not this baby? though just have to figure how much tonnage to allocate then :/ any suggestions?

Jimmy B · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 April 2012, 09:53:15 »

If you want extra bay doors, leave a few tons open for them, and
list it in the notes. The rules are there for how much space they will take up.
This way you can have as many as you want.

As for a machine-shop. Take the normal maintenance and determine how many
people it takes to achieve it. 1/10th of this x double occupancy gives you
workspace plus equipment. So it really wont be all that big.

Zureal · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 April 2012, 10:11:04 »

good points, im to tired right now though to go threw all that, been up for almost 30 hours now XD thx for the advice guys :)

also, u wouldent to know off hand what page and rulebook it has rules for bay doors would u? thx

Fireangel · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 April 2012, 10:42:09 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 09:31:58

as for the AR-10s, well i see them as a pretty good all round weapon, and again, there will be plenty of times that u have to kill fighters, or dropships, or enemy WS.

the magazines are deep because im looking at it from a "in character" vewpoint, not a "game" viewpoint. the ship might see multiple actions in a single tour, or even just be in a vary long engagment, necessitating the deep reserves. as there have been plenty of storys ware a single fight might take hours or even days to compleat.

I’m also looking at it from an in-universe POV; capital missiles cost a ton of money each and are available only at friendly bases. You have NL55 bays all-around that will deliver more damage at the same range as the cap missiles without using up any ammo whatsoever. This is a carrier; it is not intended to wade into a furball! The NL55 and HNPPC bays are more efficient at popping droppers than any capital missile (the HNPPC will threshold pretty much any dropper it does not kill outright; if a super-PWS shows up (remember, these things are not exactly “common”), then the fight will not go beyond 2-3 volleys from the warship… and the missiles are actually superfluous, since the big cap bays can take care of it all on their own, especially if the PWS enters NAC range.

Take a look:


Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 AR10 (30 KW, 30 WS, 30 B)Nose         *      *      *      *   60  4,350.00
3 NL55                     Nose        17     17     17     17  255  3,300.00
2 Heavy NPPC               Nose        30     30     30     30  450  6,000.00
5 Large Laser              Nose     4(40)  4(40)     --     --   40     25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds)       Nose     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   24     60.00
5 Medium Laser             Nose     3(25)     --     --     --   15      5.00

2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)FL/R         *      *      *      *   80  5,800.00
3 NL55                     FL/R        17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds)        FL/R        30     30     30     --  200  7,048.00
5 Large Laser              FL/R     4(40)  4(40)     --     --   80     50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds)       FL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   48    120.00
5 Medium Laser             FL/R     3(25)     --     --     --   30     10.00

3 NL55                     L/RBS       17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds)        L/RBS       30     30     30     --  200  7,048.00
5 Large Laser              L/RBS    4(40)  4(40)     --     --   80     50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds)       L/RBS    5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   48    120.00
5 Medium Laser             L/RBS    3(25)     --     --     --   30     10.00

2 AR10 (20 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)AL/R         *      *      *      *   80  5,800.00
3 NL55                     AL/R        17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds)        AL/R        30     30     30     --  200  7,048.00
5 Large Laser              AL/R     4(40)  4(40)     --     --   80     50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds)       AL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   48    120.00
5 Medium Laser             AL/R     3(25)     --     --     --   30     10.00

1 NAC/30(30 rounds)        Aft         30     30     30     --  100  3,524.00
5 Large Laser              Aft      4(40)  4(40)     --     --   40     25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds)       Aft      5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   24     60.00
5 Medium Laser             Aft      3(25)     --     --     --   15      5.00

I’m not saying “get rid of the AR-10’s”; I’m saying “revise them”.

Given the presence of heavy capital bays, the capital missiles would be used primarily in the anti-fighter and anti-warship roles (too costly and inefficient for anti-dropship use); in these roles you will want Barracudas and Killer Whales (for their nuke capability): the eight corner mounts could actually be converted to twin Barracuda launchers with 30-40 missiles per bay for 15-20 turns of continuous fire (which is a LOT; trust me); if you want reserves, use some of that cavernous cargo capacity to carry reloads. The tri-mount could be left as-is, but revising the loadout to 6-9 KW total, 12-18 WS and maybe a handful of ‘cudas to round up to a nice, round number; again, reloads could be carried as cargo and loaded after the battle.

While we’re at it; I’d consider swapping out the medium lasers for AMS or at the very least to small lasers; the loss in overall firepower is negligible, but the benefits of point defense far outweigh the loss.

BritMech · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 April 2012, 11:19:03 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 07:20:01

well the reasoning behind a larg cargo amount came from looking at modern day carriers, they have a large cargo amount on them but constantly need both refuling and even more frequintly rearming for ammo. its ment to be able to go on a decent spaced mission for at least 6 months, even behind enemy lines if it were if it had to. plus its keeping alot of fule for the 6 assault droppers it will be carrying. and also sens it will rarly be alone, most times extra for its "fleet".

also, it has some decent cap weapons because its realy not that hard for a enemy WS to run at you and start shooting you, you have to be able to defend yourself. and EVERYONE is going to know that YOU are the biggist target they wana kill. furthermore, not only the fighters, but all the equipment and ammo, ect for the marines on board, and for there various tasks, medical supplies, and much more. those things can be gone threw QUICKLY in a active campain.

* as a side note, the speed i gave it was so that even should a enemy break threw, it can USUALY eather outfight it or outgun it , witch, considuring all those fighters and droppers its carrying, is a good thing *

waw, the Nimits class carries 3 MILLION gallons of fule just for its aircraft 0_o THATS alot. but only enough food for about 90 days

182 days per Tour. So you don't need to carry more than 200 days of fuel really, because a 10% contingency should be plenty. Ammo for the Carrier is up to you, depending on how many encounters you expect in six months. Being a Clan player, I usually try and go for all-Energy layouts so that reloading isn't an issue.

Fuel for the DropShips is good, but how much will each of them need? Personally I think the 5% recommendation in TechManual is far beyond what is needed for a DropShip. Even the largest transit (a B0V system) of 137.9 days at the worst consumption of 8.83 tons per G/day is 1,218 tons. Return journey included 2,436 tons, at which point the DropShip can refuel from the JS/WS. Most stars are going to be F, G, K or M, and military DropShip G/day burn rates are far better than commercial. In a six month ToD, you can expect 2 or 3 drops. So you need to refuel a DropShip once, possibly twice at a stretch. And a military DropShip on a B0V run will only need 508 tons capacity. Given most existing designs have around this, you don't need more than 1,100 tons of fuel per DropShip.

Also, spare fuel and ammo for DropShips is better off stored in their cargo holds, since that is what DropShips are designed for. It would be rare for a DropShip, even military, to lack cargo room. A 100,000 ton 4/6 DropShip equipped to carry a Galaxy of 5 Clusters of 5 SuperNova Trinaries (total 60,000 tons weight), even with a decent SI and armor has room for 1,770 tons of cargo. More than enough space for ammo for 375 Mechs and 1,875 Elementals.

In a fleet the cargo room makes even less sense. Whilst a little surplus is required, large cargo would be in the DropShips. Make a 3/5 large tonnage with no weapons and a huge Cargo (Fluid) section. There's your refuelling station. Cargo (Bulk) for ammo and food. I know that is going into a whole logistical supply chain, but that is what the war effort would really be like. Dropping in troops to establish a base, then dropping in the supplies needed to expand the war effort.

I'm not saying to eliminate the Cargo section completely, just that 10% might be too high.

BritMech · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 April 2012, 11:28:10 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 09:31:58

also, when it comes to cargo, i was thinking maby of making a "machine shop" bay, they have them on modern aircraft carriers, why not this baby? though just have to figure how much tonnage to allocate then :/ any suggestions?

The Bay is the place to make repairs, so there isn't really a need for a machine shop. However, you mentioned a medical station, so you probably want a MASH unit. Add a few extra surgical units and you should be set.

BritMech · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 April 2012, 11:31:01 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 10:11:04

good points, im to tired right now though to go threw all that, been up for almost 30 hours now XD thx for the advice guys :)

also, u wouldent to know off hand what page and rulebook it has rules for bay doors would u? thx

TM, 209 for Bay Doors; TM, 239 for Transport Bays. SO, 155 for Bay Door calculations on WarShips.

Zureal · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 April 2012, 23:58:26 »

ok, so added abunch of bay doors that it needed, lowered the fuel by almost half, leaves plenty of fuel and extra. lowered the cargo fraction somewhat. also lowered the number of missiles stored in the launchers. Replaced one of the AR-10s in the nose with a third HNPPC. also, added 2 "dedicated M.A.S.H." thingies. figure its a carrier and it will need em. then added a pair of small craft to each small craft bay. then lastly i uped its SI to 80 and increased its armer and gave it, what i think, is a decent amount of point defenses.

QUESTION: those 200 ton fighters, the Aquarious, it counts as a small craft, right?

QIESTOPN 2: ok, so 12k tons of fuel, now is that fuel for JUST the WarShip? cuz if thats the case i am going to need to add back in more fuel so it can fuel its fighters and small craft for the same ammount of time, its why origionaly i had so much fuel

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier) 4
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2

Mass: 980,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 894 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,198 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
10 AR10 Launcher
21 NL55
3 Heavy NPPC
40 Large Laser
32 LRM 20
40 Medium Laser
48 Small Laser
7 NAC/30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: New Sytris ll (Carrier) 4
Mass: 980,000 tons

Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 235,200.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 20) 443,450.00
Lithium Fusion Battery 9,800.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 5) 79.00
Structural Integrity: 80 78,400.00
Total Heat Sinks: 4,000 Single 3,270.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 12,240.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 2,450.00
Fire Control Computers: 5,974.00
Food & Water: (210 days supply) 873.00
Hyperpulse Generator: 50.00
Armor Type: Standard (675 total armor pts) 1,566.50
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 115
Fore-Left/Right: 115/115
Aft-Left/Right: 115/115
Aft: 100

Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (60) with 10 doors 9,000.00
Bay 2: Small Craft (14) 3 2,800.00
Bay 3: Fighters (60) with 10 doors 9,000.00
Bay 4: Small Craft (14) 3 2,800.00
Bay 5: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 36,245.00
Bay 6: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 36,244.50

DropShip Capacity: 6 Docking Hardpoints 6,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2: (145-meter diameter) 200.00
Life Boats: 90 (7 tons each) 630.00
Escape Pods: 40 (7 tons each) 280.00

Crew and Passengers:
53 Officers (53 minimum) 530.00
190 Crew (188 minimum) 1,330.00
68 Gunners (68 minimum) 476.00
20 1st Class Passengers 200.00
120 Marines 600.00
380 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 AR10 (10 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)Nose * * * * 40 2,400.00
3 NL55 Nose 17 17 17 17 255 3,300.00
3 Heavy NPPC Nose 45 45 45 45 675 9,000.00
5 Large Laser Nose 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Nose 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Nose 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
6 Small Laser Nose 2(18) -- -- -- 6 3.00
2 AR10 (10 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)FL/R * * * * 80 4,800.00
3 NL55 FL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) FL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser FL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) FL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser FL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
6 Small Laser FL/R 2(18) -- -- -- 12 6.00
3 NL55 L/RBS 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) L/RBS 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser L/RBS 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) L/RBS 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser L/RBS 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
6 Small Laser L/RBS 2(18) -- -- -- 12 6.00
2 AR10 (10 KW, 20 WS, 20 B)AL/R * * * * 80 4,800.00
3 NL55 AL/R 17 17 17 17 510 6,600.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) AL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7,048.00
5 Large Laser AL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 50.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) AL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
5 Medium Laser AL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
6 Small Laser AL/R 2(18) -- -- -- 12 6.00
1 NAC/30(30 rounds) Aft 30 30 30 -- 100 3,524.00
5 Large Laser Aft 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 25.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Aft 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Aft 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
6 Small Laser Aft 2(18) -- -- -- 6 3.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%) 9,800.00
2 Dedicated Sergical Bays 1,000.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 4,040 980,000.00
Tons Left: .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 21,646,372,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 138,896
Cost per BV: 155,845.9
Weapon Value: 65,538 (Ratio = .47)
Damage Factors: SRV = 4,677; MRV = 4,229; LRV = 3,041; ERV = 1,152
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 592,227
(110,130 Structure, 321,095 Life Support, 161,002 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 689,400 (116% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable

Jimmy B · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 April 2012, 00:04:09 »

Yes Small Craft can be up to 200T

Zureal · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 April 2012, 00:14:02 »

ok, need to rename MASH equipment with dedicated Sergical Bay, sounds better, no?

Jimmy B · « **Reply #26 on:** 25 April 2012, 00:22:14 »

I could be wrong...
But shouldnt your small craft bays be 4200T each. (plus 50%?)

I wont say definitely, as I havent seen the current rules for making them.

Zureal · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 April 2012, 00:27:20 »

duno, its the way HMA made em, the rules are prolly in strat ops i think?

BritMech · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 April 2012, 18:28:29 »

Quote from: Zureal on 24 April 2012, 23:58:26

QUESTION: those 200 ton fighters, the Aquarious, it counts as a small craft, right?

QIESTOPN 2: ok, so 12k tons of fuel, now is that fuel for JUST the WarShip? cuz if thats the case i am going to need to add back in more fuel so it can fuel its fighters and small craft for the same ammount of time, its why origionaly i had so much fuel

Answer: Yes. A Fighter is anything up to 100 tons, and the Cubicles for those are 150 tons. Small Craft are up to 200 tons, and the Cubicles are 200 tons. I'm guessing the reason for that is because Fighters are more pointy, and so take up more space. (The tonnage allocation is more to do with the space the bay takes up rather than how much it weighs, but they can't do a cubic feet allocation.)

Answer 2: Yes, that's just for the WarShip. There doesn't seem to be a canon way to deal with fuel for Fighters/Small Craft, but I'm guessing you could use the Transport Bay/Cargo, Fluid. As for numbers, 120 Fighters at 100 tons each would have around 5 tons of fuel. If they fly two missions a week for six months, that is 28,800 tons of fuel. You would need 31,650 tons of Cargo space for that (28,800 / 0.91 for fluid). Mix up the fighter ratio and you can get away with 25,000 tons of Cargo space.

Ammo-wise, they might need 2 or 3 tons per fight. 17,280 tons of Cargo, Standard, but depending on the number of energy weapons you could get away with 15,000.

BritMech · « **Reply #29 on:** 25 April 2012, 18:35:40 »

Quote from: Zureal on 25 April 2012, 00:14:02

ok, need to rename MASH equipment with dedicated Sergical Bay, sounds better, no?

MASH equipment and Surgical Bay are both fine. Everyone should know what you mean.