Author Topic: MOT? - Javelin  (Read 4854 times)

Greatclub

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MOT? - Javelin
« on: 11 May 2020, 17:13:45 »
I was going to update the Javelin article with the new variant – and there wasn’t an article.

OK

The Javelin. Light mech, designed in the sunset days of the Star League, original deployment SLDF and FedSuns, a mech everyone has by the slog part of the succession wars. Real world it was released with the second batch of mechs, in TRO 3025. In BV it costs about a Wasp and a half. This is probably about where it deserves to be relation to that bug.


Starting with the original, the JVN-10N, we have a thirty tonner that can move what was, a the time, the standard light mech jumping movement, 6/9/6. This means getting a +3 movement mod is pretty likely. That’s a good thing, because the armor is only good in relation to Wasps and Stingers. Nothing will be breached by a medium laser, but everything will be stripped or worse by a large laser. Only the head will be outright ripped off by a PPC. Crit padding is acceptable, everywhere important has extra gear in it. Four of the jump jets are in the legs; bounding leaps out of water are impossible, but you're less likely to lose a hip to a crit.

Weight that was skimped on armor was dumped into weapons. Two SRM 6 is a respectable amount of critseeking, especially for the era. It is not, however, a good armament for quick solo kills, so Javelins have no business being one of the mechs first to meet the enemy. Leave that to people with medium lasers or better, and when armor starts getting thin swoop in and steal some kills. Heat management is acceptable, no heat on a running alpha, and a jumping one won’t leave you with penalties the first time.

You have two tons of ammo. With armor that thin you really have to consider if you’ll survive to use it all. The second ton can be used for alternate ammo; fragmentation for infantry and woods clearing, TC in later eras, inferno to screw with people who’ve been careless with their heat, or smoke to help hide you and your buddies. Your choice.

Speaking of medium lasers, between the first two succession wars somebody came up with the -10F, AKA the Fire Javelin. Everyone copied it. Losing the SRMs got four medium lasers, two extra heat sinks, and more armor. Upside, you can now strip armor instead of sandpapering it away and have a decent chance of surviving people paying attention to you. Downside, fewer plinks and heat management now becomes a chore; a full alpha leaves you dealing with movement heat.

The 10F is the more popular of the two Javelin, even if in universe it was supposed to be rarer. It’s also more expensive in BV, a bit over two Wasps worth.

Last of the introtech Javelin is the -10A. It’s the newest release, coming in Record Sheets: Succession Wars in 2019, but the second oldest in universe, having come out a year later than the -10N. Given the timing it probably isn’t related to the other A series mech in the PDF, but we don’t know for sure. A variant on the -10N, it has the same mobility and armor. It also went for missiles, and here the similarities end. An LRM 15 with a single ton of ammo is an interesting choice. It means you don’t have to risk your thin hide by getting as close and opens up the possibility of indirect fire. On the other hand, anyone who gets close only has to deal with your fists and feet, and there isn’t enough ammo to put any into alternate. This is a posterchild for overspecialization, but it does do it’s designed task pretty well.

Fast-forwarding to the clan invasion we have the -10P, which is an upgrade of the -10N. (Get used to not being able to track liniage by designation, as that doesn’t end.) Same armor, internals and mobility. The only difference is that one of the srm racks is pulled for a pair of streak 2s. Upside, heat management is easier and it’s basically impossible to run completely out of ammo. Downside, max damage goes down a hair, and if you want alternate ammo you’ve got to sacrifice the damage of your srm 6. I can’t call it a downgrade, but it’s situational; in BV it is actually four points cheaper.

It's worth noting that once upon a time only SRM 2 and streak 2 could use inferno, and inferno was the only alternate ammo, so the launcher that could use non-standard ammo was reversed from the current situation. Also, getting hit by a single inferno used to be a far bigger problem.

Next up is the 11A, the new Fire Javelin. It’s expensive, more than some trooper mediums, and the armor isn’t as tough, with the CT and back getting thinner despite ferro fiberous armour.  But the firepower… hoo, the firepower. No less than seven medium lasers, and double heat sinks almost cover using them. The new lasers are placed a bit unusually; it’s one of only two variants with items in an arm. The downside is that you’re a high priority target that has to get close to hurt people. It’s not a mech I’d expect to survive many battles, though I’d pick it over most Jenners in a heartbeat.

The -11B is an electronics boat descended from the -10N. It gains a guardian ECM and a Beagle Probe.  It loses the jump jets and two tubes off each SRM launcher. Armor is the same as the 11A, not max but still better than the old -10N. CASE protects the ammo – speaking of which, with fifty shots and two guns, you really don’t have an excuse not to use alternate ammo. It’s less use as a striker, but certainly capable of giving a lance of FedComs mechs an ECM bubble while watching their backs.

-11D is a civil war variant Fire Javelin. Three ER mediums and two medium pulses are linked to a targeting computer, and the heat sinks again almost handle the heat; movement heat plus one on an alpha. BV is kept under control by adding a ‘kill-me’ spot in the form of an XL engine, but it’s still the most expensive non-custom Javelin. It is back to being a FedSuns exclusive, and while accurate enough to hunt its light mech peers, I still really have to question whether it has the armor to survive playing C3 point-man for long.

-11F is another FedSuns exclusive. It keeps the XL and armor from the -11D, and a snubbie in the right torso gives a nice big hit. Right under the snubbie is an unCASEd ammo bomb, feeding two machine gun arrays in the arms. It isn’t a variant I’ve played with, but looks like a nice skirmisher and infantry sweeper combination. BV is about that of the introtech Fire Javelin, which is reasonable but doesn't change the fact it's barely a Javelin.

-11P is used by the Filtvelt Coalition (FedSuns breakaway) after the Jihad. It has the armor of an original Fire Javelin, distributed slightly different. Four streak 2s let the single heat sinks keep things under control. In era this is a budget mech, for people who don’t have access to the cool tech-toys, but is still a respectable light.

The sole hero mech we have a sheet for is based on the -11D, the Farrell. He hangs out with the Bounty Hunter, and increased the range of the pulse lasers by substituting in experimental x-pulse lasers. The other change is getting rid of the C3 for a clan Beagle Probe. This does spike the heat burden, but makes an already accurate mech even more likely to hit, especially if the enemy is hiding in woods.

The Javelin doesn’t age as well as some mechs, but variants are still contenders at least until the end of the jihad if not later.

UPDATE

New Javelin in RG31, and... Somebody got some Spider and clantech in the Javelin, it's honestly pretty good.

Weapons are two SRM 6. They’re clantech, which only matters as a weight saving measure. Both tons of ammo are in the right torso, but the IS XL means that if you lose that torso you’re dead anyway. Case II is in there to mitigate ammunition criticals. As a new feature the -12N gets a second role, with a head mounted TAG it can artillery spot. A homing arrow followed up with a salvo of SRMs is a very dangerous combination.

Endo Steel and Light Ferro save enough weight to increase the armour to ~90% max. Still fragile, it has reasonable odds of surviving a gauss hit. The rest of the weight saved goes into go-fast. 8/12/8 is upper end mobility into the ilclan era, equal to a Spider or Dragonfly. Speed-is-Armour might be partially countered by the proliferation of accuracy boosters, but it should be enough to get in position for the missiles.

At ~800 BV for the package it’s a decent deal, only 200 BV over an introtech Javelin for significant armour, speed and a TAG.


In the event of forum crash or post loss, this post may be restored by any who have it.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2023, 12:32:09 by Greatclub »

Hellraiser

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #1 on: 11 May 2020, 17:36:23 »
I feel like the 10A really should have been paired LRM5's w/ paired MLs to match the 6 holes in each torso of the 10N.
1 ton of ammo would have been enough so you still get a little armor boost in the equation.


I also feel like someone should have limited the 11A to 6 lasers making up for the loss of 2 SHS swap of the rest to DHs.
This would have removed the overheating factor & allowed for constant running alphastrikes.
Then the swap to FFA would have Gained armor instead of Lost it.


Either way I love me some Javelin in my light lances.
Its always a fun mech in any configuration.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #2 on: 11 May 2020, 18:49:54 »
I doubt the new A is related to the other As given it can hardly add more SRMs (and... it doesn't). Certainly a quirky one.
There are two 11Ps?
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Greatclub

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #3 on: 11 May 2020, 18:53:58 »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #4 on: 11 May 2020, 18:58:13 »
 :) Thanks for the article, though. Never used any of em. They do handle heat rather well for a succession wars design.
I actually wanted to edit my previous post, but, no cigar.
« Last Edit: 11 May 2020, 19:04:40 by UnLimiTeD »
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glitterboy2098

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #5 on: 11 May 2020, 19:24:09 »
i've generally assumed the -10P was one of the 'refit kit' options at the start of the clan invasion.. the streak reduce your firepower  some but it is worth remembering that most of the IS units facing the clans weren't expected to be able to fight them in a straight up battle. instead they were usually setting up to fight long drawn out guerilla campaigns. in that sort of warfare the pair of streak2's would serve as a decent upgrade. they get more shots per ton (the SRM6 is a very inefficient platform ammo wise) and being streaks you don't run through ammo if you miss. and you still have one SRM6 for more concentrated damage dealing or special ammo use. and the refit turns those common succession wars mechs into something a little more useful for guerilla behind the lines action, without the kind of major mods you'd need to fit lasers in.

i'd imagine the -11A is the design actually meant to face the clans head on.. massive firepower (but energy based so still useful for hit and runs and behind the lines action) and exploiting the newer weight saving tech to pull it off. you still can't slug it out toe to toe with a clan light, but you can go back to being a sneaky ambusher again.


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #6 on: 11 May 2020, 20:50:13 »
My first experience using a Javalin was a 10P in a free-for all against a Locust and a... Don't remember what the other mech was.  But we were all 4/5s who moved maximum distance every round and had shots at 9s or 10s.  Which meant that the game was called after the Javelin ran out of SRM 6 ammo and no one had taken damage yet.
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Hellraiser

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #7 on: 11 May 2020, 21:02:59 »
lol

Yeah, I've had a couple DOH moments with them among the overall good performance.


1.  Javelin-10N   -   Jumped & Fired both SRM at close range.   But took 2 crits to the Engine in return.
   Overheated just trying to retreat off the board out of weapons range.
   Couldn't face forward where the CT was open.
   Couldn't stop & shut down since I'd gotten in close & enemy were everywhere.
   Couldn't dump ammo when running away for fear of back shots.


2.  Javelin-11D  -  Moving up to be point man for a C3 Lance.   Becomes primary target for Blakist Legacy & Highlander up on ridge above the blocking terrain.   Ouch.


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garhkal

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #8 on: 12 May 2020, 01:22:43 »
i've generally assumed the -10P was one of the 'refit kit' options at the start of the clan invasion.. the streak reduce your firepower  some but it is worth remembering that most of the IS units facing the clans weren't expected to be able to fight them in a straight up battle. instead they were usually setting up to fight long drawn out guerilla campaigns. in that sort of warfare the pair of streak2's would serve as a decent upgrade. they get more shots per ton (the SRM6 is a very inefficient platform ammo wise) and being streaks you don't run through ammo if you miss. and you still have one SRM6 for more concentrated damage dealing or special ammo use. and the refit turns those common succession wars mechs into something a little more useful for guerilla behind the lines action, without the kind of major mods you'd need to fit lasers in.

True.  Swap both SRM-6 packs for quad SRM-2 Streak packs, and 1 ton of ammo.  that frees up a ton for something else..
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Rince Wind

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #9 on: 12 May 2020, 04:24:51 »
When the 11A grows up it will decide to shoulder most of its lasers and turn into a HBK-4P.

Wrangler

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #10 on: 12 May 2020, 08:28:52 »
In the succession war era demo agent campaign, my ride is the Javelin 10F.  Frankly i love the thing, but it's potency days are numbered as Star League era tech is looming on the horizon.  I'm too used to being able run free, and blast people in back and running away.  it's fun stuff.

As for the newer tech ones, i don't know.  I mighty be tempted use the 11A when it's time comes, but i'm not sure. Clans are bit unforgiving, i doubt i survive a duel with even light mech from the Clans for too long. I like the 11D, i think the 11F is for anti-infantry work where your not facing Mechs or Battle Armor.  Snub Nose PPC nothing to sniff at, i know the designers were likely holding back putting two of them in this little guy. That's be amazing fun for people i think.
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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #11 on: 12 May 2020, 09:27:16 »
In the succession war era demo agent campaign, my ride is the Javelin 10F.  Frankly i love the thing, but it's potency days are numbered as Star League era tech is looming on the horizon.  I'm too used to being able run free, and blast people in back and running away.  it's fun stuff.

Ditto, I'm doing that campaign that one of the agents made "Battletech Missions", and loving my 10F ride for the Davion Faction.

But I don't think we will be getting any SL tech or customization as its just sticking to canon L1 machines.
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LastChanceCav

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #12 on: 12 May 2020, 22:27:25 »
I feel like the 10A really should have been paired LRM5's w/ paired MLs to match the 6 holes in each torso of the 10N.
1 ton of ammo would have been enough so you still get a little armor boost in the equation.
...
Either way I love me some Javelin in my light lances.
Its always a fun mech in any configuration.

Couldn't agree more --> JVN-10L

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Greatclub

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #13 on: 01 April 2023, 11:51:01 »
UPDATE

New Javelin in RG31, and... Somebody got some Spider and clantech in the Javelin, it's honestly pretty good.

Weapons are two SRM 6. They’re clantech, which only matters as a weight saving measure. Both tons of ammo are in the right torso, but the IS XL means that if you lose that torso you’re dead anyway. Case II is in there to mitigate ammunition criticals. As a new feature the -12N gets a second role, with a head mounted TAG it can artillery spot. A homing arrow followed up with a salvo of SRMs is a very dangerous combination.

Endo Steel and Light Ferro save enough weight to increase the armour to ~90% max. Still fragile, it has reasonable odds of surviving a gauss hit. The rest of the weight saved goes into go-fast. 8/12/8 is upper end mobility into the ilclan era, equal to a Spider or Dragonfly. Speed-is-Armour might be partially countered by the proliferation of accuracy boosters, but it should be enough to get in position for the missiles.

At ~800 BV for the package it’s a decent deal, only 200 BV over an introtech Javelin for significant armour, speed and a TAG.
« Last Edit: 01 April 2023, 20:33:53 by Greatclub »

Colt Ward

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #14 on: 03 April 2023, 11:31:09 »
Eh, by 3150 the 8/12/8 is 3025's 6/9/6 . . . the minimum to be survivable in the environment.
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Greatclub

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #15 on: 03 April 2023, 11:40:22 »
And yet there are very few mechs that beat it. Admittedly you kind of need a partial wing to get over 8 jump without major sacrifices

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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #16 on: 03 April 2023, 12:25:51 »
Well, 8/12/x . . . b/c I think the Havoc is the minimum, and it is only 5 jump.  But it is also why you see the mech-fighting lights doing 9/14 and 10/15 with supercharges and MASC for extra bursts . . . or other lights that are 7/11 with 10 or so jump due to IJJ or Partial Wings.
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Re: MOT? - Javelin
« Reply #17 on: 03 April 2023, 15:58:59 »
And yet there are very few mechs that beat it. Admittedly you kind of need a partial wing to get over 8 jump without major sacrifices
I like idea of getting partial wing on the Javelin.  It could use it on the Fire Javelin variants to keep cool.
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