Belters and the Oort Cloud

[Korzon77]

in JHS terra, we have the following comment about the belters: ...Terran Oort Cloud on the fringes of the system (where about thirty million Belters have settled.)

My question is this? if the belters had, or assisted with building a shipyard in the Oort cloude, given the technology available to Btech ships and such--how hard would it be to find, presuming they took even minimal precautions? IE, covering the bays so that arc welding or other such activities wouldn't be visible, perhaps building heat exchangers in such a way that any thermal blooms would always face away from the inner solar system, etc.

[Alsadius]

In the short term, the Oort cloud is so damned big that nobody could search it with BT tech. In the long term, I doubt you can sustain a spacefaring population with only the resources of an Oort cloud, so it'd need to be trading with the inner system, which means you'd know where they are in practice.

[Recklessfireball1]

I doubt you can sustain a spacefaring population with only the resources of an Oort cloud, so it'd need to be trading with the inner system, which means you'd know where they are in practice.

Yep.  This.

[Frabby]

Alsadius got it right. For all intents and purposes, the Oort Cloud is empty deep space. It's much less dense than our inner asteroid belt, and even that is pretty much only empty space at the end of the day, with a small rock or so per cubic kilometer. Star Wars-style "asteroid fields" are extremely dense and more akin to the rings of Saturn than a real asteroid belt.
As such, the Oort Cloud is probably pretty devoid of resources of any kind.

Being so far out, however, means you can use JumpShips with impunity. No one will ever notice. As such, you're not reliant on trade with the inner system, but ultimately any system within jump distance. And even the "inner system" is so far away that you'd want to go there by JumpShip. For the Sol system, the standard jump points are closer to the sun than Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune.

[Alsadius]

Being so far out, however, means you can use JumpShips with impunity. No one will ever notice. As such, you're not reliant on trade with the inner system, but ultimately any system within jump distance. And even the "inner system" is so far away that you'd want to go there by JumpShip. For the Sol system, the standard jump points are closer to the sun than Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune.

In principle yes, but this is BT. In-system travel is fairly cheap, but JumpShips are precious and rare. None would ever make a tiny little Oort Cloud facility one of their ports of call.

[Weirdo]

We are specifically told that the Belters have JumpShips of their own, and use them to travel to, from, and within the Oort Cloud. They probably stayed in Sol's vicinity during times when the Terran system was kept locked down or isolated(Amaris, CornStar, WoB, etc), but in more open eras such as the Star League or the Republic's heyday I wouldn't be surprised to see Belter ships in nearby systems

[guardiandashi]

IMO there are several ways you could maintain a low profile in an Oort cloud.

1 as mentioned have and maintain your own jump ships, and build your stuff so its harder for the inner system to know exactly where your installations are.

to add to that if your "dropships" are willing to put up with longer travel times you could always throw doglegs and or drifts into your courses to and from as you go into the inner system.

the other thing they never mention in battletech but we "know" there are still some sources of gravitational disturbance (at least last time I checked) that the scientists  can't pin down, these are most likely caused by some objects that were at least planetary sized based on their influences, and the farther away they are the bigger they would have to be.  so its entirely possible that there are some pretty big objects in the Oort cloud that might go a long way to reducing or eliminating the belters reliance on resources from the inner system.

[Charistoph]

To put some perspective on things, Pluto's orbit runs from 29.7 AU to around 40 AU from the sun.  The Oort Cloud is suspected of being 5,000 to 100,000 AU from the sun.  Sarna.net lists Sol's proximity limit to being about 10.2 AU.  Also remember, that is a radius, giving a circumference of over 31,000 AU, and a possible inner surface area of over 314 million AU², and that's just the inner possible edge.  Earth's land area is roughly 150 million km², and its surface area is roughly 197 million.  The fastest Voyager probe who passed by Pluto's orbit in 1986, has yet to reach the Oort Cloud, at around 18.8 billion km (or about 125 AU) from us.

To detect something in the Oort Cloud would mean that it would have to be extremely energetic to be noticed on any general scanning equipment, even from Pluto at its closest.  So, unless they are broadcasting like Hitler (Carl Sagan reference), their position will be difficult to find from casual notice.  To track them down on a specific notice would probably be like trying to find your wifi box on Pluto from Earth today, and that could be giving you credit on knowing where to look.

So, yeah, if you wanted to be where no one would look for you or even notice you were there, but still be close enough to call a star home, an Oort Cloud would be a great place to hide, provided you found a way to be self-sufficient.

[grimlock1]

Seems like Btech only ever talks about Belters in the Sol system.  If there are resources, why wouldn't you see Belters  in more colonized systems?

[Garrand]

Given the amount of living space available just on Earth-like worlds, I don't see a real reason for there to be belters to begin with. The Sol system belters could be the crazy poltical weirdos that have already formed a long-standing culture, so there isn't much demand for it anywhere else?

Damon.

[Liam's Ghost]

They exist, but they're uncommon. The truth is, living space isn't at a premium in the inner sphere, and there's not much of a reason to endure the initial expense of difficulty of setting up in space when you can just move to another empty continent.

Cheap resources is another, similar problem. Once mankind had spread across the Inner Sphere, it was still canonically cheaper to import materials from other terrestrial sources than it was to set up asteroid mining.

There are exceptions, of course, and that's where spaceborn settlements thrive. There just aren't a lot of them.

(that said, if there was a time for new asteroid settlements, now would be it. The inner sphere has recovered considerably, making establishing them much less of a hardship than it was during the succession wars, but their jumpship fleets are still critically small, so it might not be cheaper to just import resources)

[Korzon77]

Not to mention that in the aftermath of several near genocidal conflicts, spaceborne societies might be seen as less vulnerable. Things like the Curse of Galadon might spread faster in any given habitat, but it would be easier to quarintine any given habitat.

of course, space is big, really really big, and the belters *are* spread out, in the sense that it would be nearly impossible to search out the entire sol system for them.

Then there's the fact that the belters, ahve, since the fall of the Star League, been left alone iwth a Star League level technological and industrial base. My bet is one reason they're left alone is that while everyone only *sees* their aerospace fighters, everyone assumes that they have a lot more heavy iron available to them.

[Giovanni Blasini]

In real life, we know there's a limit on the sizes of trans-Neptunian objects that puts objects the size of Jupiter or even Saturn impossible out to 10-20 thousand AU.  That isn't necessarily true for the Battletech universe, but even if it is, the Oort cloud is far bigger than that.  No, a brown dwarf is unlikely, but that doesn't mean there isn't a handy ice giant half a light-year out with a moon like Titan or, more likely, a Mars-or-Earth sized world out there (there have been some efforts that narrow the total mass of the Port cloud down to 5 Earth masses).

[Alsadius]

Also, remember that anything out there is going to be a few degrees above absolute zero. You won't get gas giants, because you won't have gases. (Other than helium)

[Daryk]

It strikes me any habitat that far out would want to have a jump core in it.  Otherwise, any random terrorist could threaten to jump out close enough to tear the habitat apart.

[Maingunnery]

In real life, we know there's a limit on the sizes of trans-Neptunian objects that puts objects the size of Jupiter or even Saturn impossible out to 10-20 thousand AU.  That isn't necessarily true for the Battletech universe, but even if it is, the Oort cloud is far bigger than that.  No, a brown dwarf is unlikely, but that doesn't mean there isn't a handy ice giant half a light-year out with a moon like Titan or, more likely, a Mars-or-Earth sized world out there (there have been some efforts that narrow the total mass of the Port cloud down to 5 Earth masses).

What about a captured rogue ice planet? It wouldn't be mass-limited like local objects. 

[marauder648]

The Belters are also part of the Sol system's history.  Folks trying to get away from the Terran Alliance via slowboat sleeper ship or by just moving out into the Asteroid belt and further out.  As folks have said, the Oort Cloud is so huge it staggers the mind, and the Asteroid belt's also the same, obvioulsy not as huge but still a massive area of space which is mostly empty.

It wouldn't surprise me that the Belters have some extremely accurate navigational maps of the Oort Cloud and know where there's some juicy resources to be had.  We also know that there's habitats out there, either built into asteroids or man made.  So Belters would either jump out to these, and then go out from there, or use the habitat as a base and jump to resource points from there, moving back and forth that way, sending a ship back to the Belt to ship/trade goods.

And who knows what the SLDF hid out there, there could be a mothballed Warship or dozens of them from the old Hegemony reserves, as well as a facility to support them.  And if the Belters have found that, then that would be ultra secret.

[Robroy]

The Belters are also part of the Sol system's history.  Folks trying to get away from the Terran Alliance via slowboat sleeper ship or by just moving out into the Asteroid belt and further out.  As folks have said, the Oort Cloud is so huge it staggers the mind, and the Asteroid belt's also the same, obvioulsy not as huge but still a massive area of space which is mostly empty.

It wouldn't surprise me that the Belters have some extremely accurate navigational maps of the Oort Cloud and know where there's some juicy resources to be had.  We also know that there's habitats out there, either built into asteroids or man made.  So Belters would either jump out to these, and then go out from there, or use the habitat as a base and jump to resource points from there, moving back and forth that way, sending a ship back to the Belt to ship/trade goods.

And who knows what the SLDF hid out there, there could be a mothballed Warship or dozens of them from the old Hegemony reserves, as well as a facility to support them.  And if the Belters have found that, then that would be ultra secret.

I was thinking of something along these lines. Wasn't some pre jumpship, ships generational/ arc types? One of these ships, designed to grow its own food for a large active population could form the hub of a deep space group.

[marauder648]

Yeah there's a few colonies that were founded by slowboats, one called Colombia found their world to be a super-earth with far too high gravity so they settled in the systems belts and are super isolationist, there's a French one and another that were named.

[Korzon77]

And to be honest, the belters have their own shipyards. There's nothing keeping small groups from building a jumpship, compact or non compact core and either establishing their own settlements or just seeing the universe. As others have pointed out, even quite large groups of belters could be more or less invisible.

[Alsadius]

There's nothing keeping small groups from building a jumpship

Except that there are trillions of people tied into an economy spanning thousands of planets who have forgotten how to build them. But a few asteroid miners who somehow manage to survive without any sunlight or resupply of oxygen will be able to throw together hyper-advanced jump drives costing tens of billions of C-bills worth of resources, no problem.

[Robroy]

Except that there are trillions of people tied into an economy spanning thousands of planets who have forgotten how to build them. But a few asteroid miners who somehow manage to survive without any sunlight or resupply of oxygen will be able to throw together hyper-advanced jump drives costing tens of billions of C-bills worth of resources, no problem.

They didn't forget, the people that built them got bombed into oblivion in the 1SW. Something the belters managed to adviod.

[Charistoph]

They didn't forget, the people that built them got bombed into oblivion in the 1SW. Something the belters managed to adviod.

Most of the people that built them got bombed into oblivion.  There was still a few construction yards out there that barely keeps up with the base failure rate.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me to find out those yards were under the control and use of Belters in very out of the way places.

[Nightlord01]

Most of the people that built them got bombed into oblivion.  There was still a few construction yards out there that barely keeps up with the base failure rate.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me to find out those yards were under the control and use of Belters in very out of the way places.

The Belters have always been an oddity, and something the universe never focused on. They are known to have high technical proficiency, and zero interest in the affairs of the Inner Sphere. Although the reference eludes me, it was one of the Jihad books or maybe the IP series, even the WoB knew next to nothing about the Belters and decided not to expend the effort required on what would likely be a failed effort to bring them to heel.

[Korzon77]

The Belters have always been an oddity, and something the universe never focused on. They are known to have high technical proficiency, and zero interest in the affairs of the Inner Sphere. Although the reference eludes me, it was one of the Jihad books or maybe the IP series, even the WoB knew next to nothing about the Belters and decided not to expend the effort required on what would likely be a failed effort to bring them to heel.

The belters builot a fairly large proportion of Sol's jumpships (in fact, in JHS terra, it's called out as ironically one of the things that led to their temporary decline), and they actively need them-- a civilization spanning the asteroid belt to the oort cloud isn't going to be functional with STL transports.

As a society, with 1.5 billion people who didn't have any technological regression from the wars, or any effective suppression by comstar, the fact is that the Belters should be not simply as advanced as the old star league, but probably more advanced than the clans, at least in most of the theoretical sciences (not having any need for heavy ground weapons, it's likely that they didn't convert those developments into advanced tech).  Hell, if there's any place CASPER tech could survive, you'd find it in the belt, given how many benefits low AI tech would give them.

Then there's the problem that they can go anywhere.  They have FTL, they have no need for habitable worlds, and so, they can literally live anywhere they have mass and energy--including things like brown dwarfs and other steller bodies tht the rest of the Inner Sphere would never look for.

BUT, in order to avoid "The mighty belt empire rules the milky way" they nave a few factors militating against expansion.

1. They don't need it. Being able to exploit the asteroid belt and other factors, coupled with making your own living space, means that they have no reason to expand--Sol gives them everything they need with room to grow into the trillions.
2.  Long lives+an environment that requires technologically skilled citizens= a low birth rate.  Belters don't have to have ten kids to work the fields.  Children are valued an invested in, and that means that their rate of growth is very slow. Coupled with 1, why spread out?  To go to the tropical paradise world? That's available in the Oort cloud, a habitat with steamy jungles and "safari" expeditions, all for the price of a cheap jump ticket. Their may be, and probably are other belter colonies, but they're likely small, with the same slow growth you see in the belt, and mainly settled by the kind of non-conformists that don't want to talk to other people.
3. Finally, the belters  have a relatively sane culture, one that has managed to avoid the general love of wars over an empty throne. TGhey probably assume that any contact with the Inner Sphere or clans is likely to see annoying people show up and demand they use their higher technology in order to build stuff--and they already had that ride with Amaris.

OUT OF GAME... Well, the belters are recent addition to Btech in terms of the history of the game, and so you really have to come up with reasons why an advanced, tehcnological culture, without Comstars attitudes, didn't have a bigger impact onthe setting, when you consider that it's entirely likely that the belt can still, if they want to, turn out warships.

[marauder648]

The belters are generally rather isolationist, they are not xenophobicly isolationist but they keep to themselves.  IIRC (don't have my books to hand) when ComStar claimed Terra and the Sol system they approached the Belters and basically said "We like you, we'll leave you alone, just don't go trading stuff with folks outside, we'll handle all shipping and take a small cut but you get the majority of the profits." And the Belters were like "Yeah what ever dude." and happy with it. 

Comstar never tried to control them, they just retained cool but cordial relations with them and left the Belters alone, seemingly not quite realising how hugely spread out or how many of them there were.  From the book where you get a good look at the Belters, the Comstar guy writing his report is seemingly shocked at how many Belters there is, it was a significant order of magnitude more than Comstar guessed there was.  And because the Belt and Oort cloud are so freaking huge, whilst they have some very large settlements like Metis which acts as the defacto capital for the various Belt groups and organisations, there is hollowed out asteroids and orbital habitats a plenty in the Belt and Cloud. 

The book also said the Belters have REALLY advanced Medical tech, which in the book was shown off by the belter guide going outside of an airlock without a suit and doing a lil dance for a few minutes, so they've gone really into outright modifications to improve survivability as well as radically ****** or even completely halting aging. One of the RPG hooks was that the Belters indeed HAVE stopped aging, but this is kept beyond top secret and only a few have recived it as they know the danger of an anti-agapic being spread across the Inner Sphere. 

Their culture seems to be a kind of wild west mentality as well, almost everyone is armed usually with a knife of some kind and because their med tech is so damn advanced, a stabbing isn't seen as a bad thing rather a learning experience. No need to shoot someone, win a knife fight, take them to the docs, they are back on their feet quick as you like. 
So very advanced in some areas and with a general tech level around the Star League in others, isolationist but not aggressively so (although apparently Belter Aerospace fighter pilots are deadly) and just content to be left alone to live their lives and let their society keep going the way it is.

One thing about AI, the Belters had a lot of issues with the Caspers during the Amaris crisis as he'd use them to try and crack down on the Belters, they got a serious hatred of them and the Amaris crisis made the Belters become more isolationist after Kerensky left and Blake took over Terra, basically they seemed to have seen it as simply not worth their bother to get involved with the Terrans.  Their society and culture has diverged significantly and they seem to have no real feelings of loyalty to Terra, rather to each other and family.

[Korzon77]

Yeah, which is why I figure most are in the terran region. Granted, when you're talking about a population of nearly 2 billion, it doesn't take many by percentage to say: let's found our own colonies, to produce a fairly large exodus in absolute terms. Granted, it's still tiny compared to the belt population and absolutely infinitesimal compared to the inner sphere, which is what, two or three trillion?

[marauder648]

I don't have my books to hand but there's two other Belter systems out there, ones the ultra isolationist Colombia which was mostly a ex US citizens affair and the other was a Franco-Brasilian one, but yes the rest, the vast majority are in the Sol system.

[Daemion]

One of the fun things about the Belters is the prospect of them finding the things that would be missed by the garden world colonies.

I could see Belter ships going on the exploration excursion to some of the non-garden systems just to see that anti-matter storm and what it does to a system from a safe distance.

They would be in the places to find anomalies that might lead to the alternate forms of FTL travel or even old alien artifacts from defunct civilizations.  All simply because they live where very few normal humans live and aren't afraid to go to the extreme reaches.

Lots of fun potential there for that exploration aspect that gets lost in a universe dedicated to Bot-smashing skirmishes.

[Robroy]

What book is the Belters found in?