Author Topic: The Role of Laser Rifles  (Read 951 times)

Lance Leader

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The Role of Laser Rifles
« on: 26 February 2024, 00:57:38 »
  One thing I've never been quite sure about is the role of laser rifles in Battletech.  In some sources it seems like they are the preferred weapon of snipers and in others they seem to take the role of a better general service rifle used by armies with deep pockets.  Any one have an idea what the niche is for laser rifles in Btech?  Canon references, educated guesses, and wild speculation are all welcome.

paladin2019

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #1 on: 26 February 2024, 01:34:22 »
It depends on when you are talking about in the publishing history. Prior to 1999's MW3e (FASA's last BT ruleset was 1998's Master Rules), lasers were just the all-around better option. MW3e changed the paradigm, making them better at single shot, long range fires but the automatic rifle (previously just "rifle") became the better option in all other circumstances. Any canon references outside MW RPGs will need to be validated against this change.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Lord greystroke

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #2 on: 26 February 2024, 06:37:52 »
Lasers could still work fine as a normal weapon hence the Mauser 960 and 1200 had PC's use both of those but both in 3rd edition had a decent burst fire a lot of the others as said mostly seem geared to long range sniper warfare were it was your margin that did the damage and as i remember most armour was pretty poor against lasers  as they had lots of PEN

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #3 on: 26 February 2024, 20:22:20 »
The Mausers are leveraging laser range with Grenade Launcher damage.  Aside from that, Shrapnel #9 completely flipped the table (and is canon, last I checked).  There are now laser rifles (without underbarrel Grenade Launchers) that exceed the 0.60 damage cap for Standard weapons (thus granting the Heavy Burst special) with ranges WELL beyond ye olde 2/4/6 or even 3/6/9 of the Intek and clanner lasers.  These laser rifles ALSO have Succession War availability.  Infantry got quite the boost there, even beyond that provided by the Shrapnel #1 Sniper Rifles.  Of course, they're generally WAY more expensive than throwing a pair of Sniper Rifles into your otherwise bog-standard Rifle Squad... ;)

Maelwys

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #4 on: 27 February 2024, 00:45:00 »
They can be just about anything. Standard infantry weapon for groups that have access to them (Either tech or cash), or sniper rifle for assassins that are looking for something a bit more silent and with less recoil and greater range. There isn't really a niche for them, they can be used wherever.

Also the universe is so big that what may be niche in one area, isn't necessarily niche in another.
« Last Edit: 27 February 2024, 00:47:50 by Maelwys »

Maelwys

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #5 on: 27 February 2024, 13:45:28 »
Speaking of which, did we ever get errata/explanation on some of the stats?

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #6 on: 27 February 2024, 18:24:55 »
The to-hit bonuses (at least) don't apply at TW scale.

Maelwys

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #7 on: 27 February 2024, 19:51:06 »
Oh, I meant weird stuff as well, like the Medusas having Burst, but not, etc.

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #8 on: 27 February 2024, 19:55:54 »
The ones that blow up when the trigger's pulled too...

beachhead1985

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #9 on: 28 February 2024, 00:02:47 »
The canon has been consistently inconsistent on the issues of small arms and support weapons. TW...helped a lot, for a little while, but later additions have upset the limited degree of balance that existed.

So I feel very safe in my own, following head-canon.

Laser weapons are high-class weapons for high-class troops in certain circumstances.

They have better range and damage than most slug-throwers, and are more accurate.

But their power-usage severely limits them in practice. Maintenance *can* be an issue, but is really a matter of training. A foolish lord could waste lots of cash on fancy lasers for his levy troops and then have the whole inventory unserviceable due to lacking maintenance and abuse.

Slug-throwers are more-robust and have better mid-term endurance because you can carry more bullets than batteries. But if the laser-troops can avoid firing off their whole basic load of ammunition, they will be able to recharge their power packs one way or the other (an infantry squad without chargers is derelict in their duties), effectively endlessly, independent of external supply, where the slug-thrower troops need an ongoing supply of ammunition trucked in.

Power consumption makes pulse-lasers and more powerful lasers like blazers difficult to support in long battles. But in the hands of elite troops on raiding missions or close to re-(power)-supply? They'd be advantageous. Ditto as specialist's weapons.

In my own AU, the standard weapon of my SLDF troops is the "Thunderbolt", an automatic heavy gyrojet gun with an underbarrel needler. They're designed as a well-supplied force meant to dominate well-equipped opponents in counter-insurgency and assaults on fortified positions.These still have their limits, one being weight and another bulk and laser weapons are still sprinkled throughout my orders of battle to gain their advantages. But my light infantry? They carry something like an updated, modular Intek. They have to operate more distantly and without ready access to resupply, so they can't expect access to endless stocks of clipped-gyrojet shells.

But a lot of my specialist troops carry a weapon called the Dusak-150K; a laser pistol-carbine. It leverages laser-technology and apex LosTech to offer 3SW Laser-Rifle performance in a weapon you can fire one-handed at short-range. It still burns power-packs though, but if you're a medic looking for a get-the-hell-away-from-me-gun or a mechwarrior picking out your backup piece, you could do a lot worse.

And then I have my "Strikers", elite hit-and-run troops; they're as close to 100%-laser-armed as possible. Since they aren't designed for stand-up fights of any kind, they lean into the benefits of laser-weaponry (punch, range and accuracy) and leave the power-cells to recharge on the dropship as it burns them back out the gravity well or on the fusion-charger rack in their temporary hides.
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The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
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Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #10 on: 28 February 2024, 04:27:14 »
Solar rechargers are ridiculously light... :)

nerd

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #11 on: 29 February 2024, 08:28:48 »
Solar rechargers are ridiculously light... :)
Kinetic rechargers, keep your Privates busy.
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paladin2019

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #12 on: 29 February 2024, 14:42:30 »
That's a job for 2LTs
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #13 on: 29 February 2024, 17:39:06 »
Just for reference, a Solar Recharger is 1.5 kg, and provides 45 pph.  A kinetic one is 2 kg and provides 5 pph... :)

beachhead1985

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #14 on: 01 March 2024, 10:52:10 »
That's a job for 2LTs

So long as it leaves their hands free to sign things.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Maelwys

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #15 on: 01 March 2024, 19:48:15 »
And that is one benefit for laser rifles, the ability to just hook it up to a Military power pack and not have to worry about changing out magazines as often.

beachhead1985

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #16 on: 01 March 2024, 22:13:12 »
And that is one benefit for laser rifles, the ability to just hook it up to a Military power pack and not have to worry about changing out magazines as often.

Or even the Support-PPC power pack, or building/base power under certain circumstances.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

paladin2019

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #17 on: 01 March 2024, 23:54:05 »
So long as it leaves their hands free to sign things.
(That was a joke about "certain units" and old manning practices)
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

idea weenie

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #18 on: 02 March 2024, 14:52:27 »
A unit armed with Laser Rifles and access to a good recharging location can hold a location for a very long time (accounting for casualties).

Thanks to the recharger, the troopers are kept constantly supplied with ammo so can fire at higher rates much more freely.  Contrast this with a unit using actual bullets, where the bullets have to be replaced from a factory.

Of course the fun is the recharge rate needed.  A single bullet from an AK-47 has roughly 2 kiloJoules of energy.  A laser rifle will need the following recharge rates to equal that amount of energy:
* 1 bullet per second: 2 kW
* 3 bullets per second: 6 kW
* 10 bullets per second: 20 kW

This is for a single trooper.  Increase the values as appropriate for a platoon, company, or battalion.  Let alone using heavier weapons.

Does BT have recharging systems that can handle that level of recharge rate?

Of course the problem with laser weaponry is that there are several ways to block laser light that do not block bullets:
* reflec armor
* aerosol grenades with proper crystals inside them
* thin but ablative cover (i.e. clothing racks in a store)

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #19 on: 02 March 2024, 16:04:58 »
A Solar Recharger can fully charge 3 standard power packs in two hours (during daylight, of course).

paladin2019

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #20 on: 03 March 2024, 04:35:12 »
Quote
Of course the fun is the recharge rate needed.  A single bullet from an AK-47 has roughly 2 kiloJoules of energy.  A laser rifle will need the following recharge rates to equal that amount of energy:
* 1 bullet per second: 2 kW
* 3 bullets per second: 6 kW
* 10 bullets per second: 20 kW
Maybe. We don't know what the methodology of damage is supposed to be, so it may be more or less. I have seen mumbo jumbo as exotic as "the laser is tuned to the frequency of water so it flash boils the water in tissue causing steam explosions" to simply burning cauterized holes in things. Also consider the Kalashnikov fires far faster than the laser rifle, post 1999's MW3.

Quote
Of course the problem with laser weaponry is that there are several ways to block laser light that do not block bullets:
* reflec armor
* aerosol grenades with proper crystals inside them
* thin but ablative cover (i.e. clothing racks in a store)
Some of these have game effects, some are not addressed. But I suspect that unless a standard cotton/poly uniform will protect against a laser, a bunch of them won't, either (especially when ablative armor is an actual thing in the game to protect against lasers.)
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #21 on: 04 March 2024, 17:16:35 »
Solar rechargers are ridiculously light... :)

Can't you just hook the power packs up to the engine of a vehicle?  I know it's super-easy for battle armor to hook up to omnis, but it should be possible to do that in the hangar for a fusion engine.

paladin2019

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #22 on: 04 March 2024, 17:27:41 »
As little thought is given to it in MW1e and 2e, I suspect there is a charging rack for a couple of power packs right next to the command couch. But hooking into the engine is probably something that should be done via an adapter for for exterior operations. For example, command vans that aren't equipped with fusion engines probably have such equipment as standard to pull power from the boss or XO's mech and then distribute throughout the HQ.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #23 on: 04 March 2024, 20:32:22 »
Can't you just hook the power packs up to the engine of a vehicle?  I know it's super-easy for battle armor to hook up to omnis, but it should be possible to do that in the hangar for a fusion engine.
Assuming you have a nearby functional vehicle that can stand still, sure... ;)

Maelwys

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #24 on: 06 March 2024, 21:07:25 »
Also the armor to resist Laser rifles is generally a little worse than what the armor is providing for ballistic damage, and Ablative and Ablative/Flak armor is higher tech than your basic Flak armor, so that can come into play as well.

Daryk

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #25 on: 06 March 2024, 21:25:37 »
Hilariously, there are faction Armor Jackets with E ratings of 5 at TL B (looking at you, Steiner and Davion).  For whatever reason, Flak is TL C.  And even more weirdly, the Tanker Smock at that same TL C also has an E rating of 5, the same as Ablative/Flak at TL D (pure Ablative gets to 6 E at TL D).

beachhead1985

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #26 on: 06 March 2024, 22:23:57 »
(That was a joke about "certain units" and old manning practices)

I heart you for appreciating this.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Grand_dm

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Re: The Role of Laser Rifles
« Reply #27 on: 08 April 2024, 20:55:53 »
In my own games they are the go to for zero-g ops, since they have no recoil. I used a modified table for actions taken in zero-g.
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