MechWarrior Second Edition Optional rule.

[Wrangler]

I've used BattleTroops in sort of a RPG setting.  The game was only modified because lack of Battle Armor to play with. Inner Sphere Battle Armor had submachine guns added to give it more variety (technically could fit the things.)  It was highly playable despite it's age.

[Daemion]

Oh, yeah.  BattleTroops, itself was a fine game.  Since I don't know anything about MW 1st ed, I kinda wonder if that was the inspiration for the format chosen. 

The problem with it was trying to integrate it with BattleTech's armored combat.  They tried shoe-horning Mechs and tanks into that system when it was, by all rights, unnecessary.

And, one of the reasons I look at MW 2nd as a preferred option for BattleTroops is that it has something I can recognize from BT linking the two systems: the pilot damage chart.  That is the basis for the character status track, but expanded for a new scale.  That along with a body section damage system and the potential means to armor it is what sold me on this over the (what appears to me) stand-alone BattleTroops game. 

Didn't BaTrps 2 introduce BattleArmor?

That's the interesting thing about a lot of the FASA BattleTech related games.  Each one, in its own right, was an interesting and potentially fun game to play.  But, when it came to wholistic integration, they failed.  AeroTech was probably the only one that didn't fail so badly because it was largely about space combat.  No aerial dogfights.  And integration with a BattleTech game was a simple attack pass.  Easy enough. But, BattleTroops and BattleForce didn't quite mesh.

I've steered clear of AToW for a similar reason.  By taking away the status track as a link, you lost me, even though the combat is still relatively similar to MW 2nd and BattleTech in action execution.  The conversion isn't as simple as looking at the pilot damage table from a Mech sheet and going from there. It also doesn't help that the Character construction rules for AToW take up half of what is a pretty large book.

[victor_shaw]

Really surprised this post is still so high on the list having been gone for awhile.  ;D

So, my W&G game is still a few months out due to a major delay on the book I need (Vow of Absolution the Adeptus Astartes Sourcebook) and some guest that don't seem to want to leave living in my game room. As such I have decided to get back to work on my MW2 guide and the Academy sourcebook (in that order).
As the Poll indicated that the vast majority of you want the clans and the IS separated, I will start working on the missing early life paths for the clans first.
It will take some time for me to get up to speed and move and organize all the files from my storage drive to my working desktop so don't expect anything right away.

Planned order of attack.
1. Early and late clan childhood.
2. Clarification on Bloodnames and how they are assigned.
3. Rework of the schooling system for both Clans and Innersphere to add value to the more advanced training schools (Getting more from the NAIS) as the balanced path gutted some of the schools. This will also lead to some schools being "A Lot" harder to get into during character creation thus making the achievement worth a lot more.
4. Reorganization of the Weapons/Equipment to make it easer to find things.
5. Complete layout of RPG/TT battle system to allow for better roleplaying in vehicle combat.
6. Modification of the Battlearmor system to allow for hit location and limb damage.
7. Looking for a person to do bookmarks and an Index for the book when its done. Please PM me if interested.

I'm sure there will be more and some thing will change but these are my starting points.

[Daryk]

Glad to have you back, but I won't be able to help much with the clanner stuff, sorry...

[victor_shaw]

Glad to have you back, but I won't be able to help much with the clanner stuff, sorry...

Yeah, I know you are a traitor to the Star League but that's ok.   ;)
Jokes aside, glade your still around pushing the evil gospel of AToW.  ;D

[Daryk]

Heh, you bet I am!  I've posted a number of squads for the various factions down in Non-Canon Units, if you're so inclined...  ;)

[DOC_Agren]

I can help up to 3050..  and I'm kinda get somewhat familiar with the clans...  but still some of mine knowledge is "well this make sense" stuff.

[victor_shaw]

I can help up to 3050..  and I'm kinda get somewhat familiar with the clans...  but still some of mine knowledge is "well this make sense" stuff.

I'll keep that in mind when I get back to the Clan Training Camp/Internship idea.

[victor_shaw]

Two major changes to the book.
1. All text has had a font change to Franklin Gothic Book with a change in size from 9.5 to 9. It's clearer to read and takes up about the same amount of space.
2. Many of the chart/table have been removed and the content imbedded into the relevant text. the old Clan warrior package are now part of the Sibko path text.
Example: Primary MechWarrior (Cost 20): Gunnery/'Mech (+10), Melee Weapons (+1), Leadership (+1), MedTech (+1), Piloting/'Mech (+6), Small Arms (+3), Navigation/Ground (+1), Tactics/Mech (+3), Computer/Mech Systems (+3), Martial Arts/Military (+1)

The last action was taken due to the large area of space being wasted on the tables.

[DOC_Agren]

I'll keep that in mind when I get back to the Clan Training Camp/Internship idea.

:thumbsup:

[victor_shaw]

Update #1 (2nd Edition Advanced Rules Compendium)

Some major changes are coming with the new edition. I wanted to get some feedback on the proposed changes.

1. Rank/Vehicle/Wealth: These entries are going to get a complete overhaul based on a new system I have come up with.
Rank: will be earned on a point/saving roll bases divorced from the Advantage system and more based on the characters choices during Education and Past Experience and some luck. Characters will be assigned rank points during Education based on the school they attend, this will be the base level they start with. The Education Random table will also have rewards for higher rolls that add to this. Each Past Experience path associated with their rank that a players finishes will also provide a Promotion entry consisting of a saving throw TN that if the player hits will add points to the total. At the end of creation the points will be compared to the Rank chart associated with their service.
Vehicle: The priority table will no longer provide direct vehicle type entries (Light, Med, Etc,) but will now provide Vehicle points (0,1,2, Etc.) as a starting block. Like above, paths will add to these points as character creation goes on (+2, +1, +4, Etc.). At the end the player will have a Vehicle Pool (Example: 8 points) that can be used to work out what size vehicle they start with, do they own it or did a patron/House provide it, does it have any flaws, is it a custom model, Etc..
Wealth: Wealth will be an expendable resource during character creation. Players will start with a set amount that will be modified by life path choices, Event table, requirements for schools and paths, and some equipment options, and a few advantage/disadvantages. At the close of Character creation players will have a final wealth point total to compare to the final wealth chart with negatives indicating debt an positives equaling extra starting cash. All players will start with the baseline c-bill amount indicated in MW2 as a minimum. with negatives indicating outstanding loans and positives indicating windfalls or good investments.

2. As stated before, schools are getting another update with higher tier schools being far harder to enter, but the rewards will be worth it. The new book will also dive deeper into the civilian schools/careers. Yes making Indiana Kurita will now be a thing.  ;D

3. Skills and advantage/disadvantages are getting a new run through to both fix them to the new changes and to trim out the fat. Both kind of exploded in number during the last run so I'm looking to trim it down.

4. Font and Layout changes as stated earlier.

5. Advanced rules for Schools and Sibko training

6. A how to for each stage of the character creation for finishing creation at different stages in life.

7. Some terminality changes to better represent character creation through the new system. Paths are now stages, Clans and Innersphere have different stages from one another. Clans have stages Phenotype increases based on age. (Phenotype changes appear over time and not as one lump sum)

8. Terms (2 year) with grade saving throws will be added to Academies/Universities/Internships/Sibko training to allow for things like Washing/Failing Out and to fix issues with min/maxing and to better fit in with the upcoming Academy Days supplement. For example, While a typical Mechwarrior training center may have a simple Physical (-1 TN) roll, some place like NAIS will have (depending on the major) a Mental (+3 TN) and a Physical (+1 TN) every Term to continue in the stage. With the edition of variable age to this stage, this allows for characters to flunkout of one academy and move to training camp or leaser academy so they can still reach their goal. This also allows for better use of the different School packages (Academy/University) and allows me to spread the bonuses out to better facilitate Washing/Failing Out with out long rule sections on how to remove and redirect skill. While Academy/University packages (Basic/Advanced) still exist, which ones you take will be based on the School you enter and how far you get in the curriculum.

9. Schools that provide no real bonus or flavor outside of name will be relegated to the category of "other names for the generic Academies/Universities".

10. Etc.

Yeah, this is a full on restructuring of the Character creation system. Mechanically the games core will remain the same but a lot of the fixers will be changing. Thus the change in name to 2nd Edition Advanced Rules Compendium

[Daryk]

I look forward to seeing how you implemented the Vehicle trait... that sounds like a good plan!  :thumbsup:

[DOC_Agren]

A school that should be in there if it is not, is TC Special Asteroid Support Force..  Seeing how they kept them right along.  Including using XCT Marine Exoskeletal Armor and are well trained in Zero G operations.

[idea weenie]

A school that should be in there if it is not, is TC Special Asteroid Support Force..  Seeing how they kept them right along.  Including using XCT Marine Exoskeletal Armor and are well trained in Zero G operations.

I'd be tempted to make the different schools a separate document.  Go with a few archetypes in the main book with a slight bit of potential customization, and the basic character creation.

If you want a variety of schools, use a second book for that.  Just be careful that this secondary book doesn't start a power creep.

[victor_shaw]

 Fast Learner and Slow Learner got a make-over in this edition.
Tell me what you think.  :thumbsup:

(3) Fast Learner: The Fast Learner advantage is available only when gained through event rolls or with GM’s permission. A character with the Fast Learner Advantage can pick up and improve Skills at faster rate than many other characters of equal intelligence. During character creation the PC gains a bonus of 3 skill points during each stage. These points may only be used to finish skills that are short of reaching the next level and any that are not spent are lost. Note: this bonus is only available after the stage Fast Learner is gain. All rule regarding skill level gain in character creation still apply. During play Fast Learner reduces the skill point cost of raising a skill by -2. (from 10 to 8 ). Note: This reduction is cumulative with the reduction from Tech Empathy. (from 10 to 7)

(3) Slow Learner: The Slow Learner disadvantage is available only when gained through event rolls. A character with the Slow Learner Disadvantage will pick up and improve Skills at a slower rate than other characters of equal intelligence. During character creation the character loses 3 skill points ever stage. This loss can be taken from the character bonus pool or any bonus that the character gains during the current stage. Note: this penalty is only available after the stage Slow Learner is gain. All rule regarding skill level gain in character creation still apply. During play, Slow Learner increases the skill point cost of raising a skill by +2. (from 10 to 12). Note: This increase is cumulative with the increase from Gremlins. (from 10 to 13)

[victor_shaw]

I'd be tempted to make the different schools a separate document.  Go with a few archetypes in the main book with a slight bit of potential customization, and the basic character creation.

If you want a variety of schools, use a second book for that.  Just be careful that this secondary book doesn't start a power creep.

While this is normally a thing with Official publications, I see it as a corporate way to reduce page count and gouge for more money.
It also leads to the power creep you fear and unbalancing in the game.
As this is a free online production I don't seen the need.

[victor_shaw]

A school that should be in there if it is not, is TC Special Asteroid Support Force..  Seeing how they kept them right along.  Including using XCT Marine Exoskeletal Armor and are well trained in Zero G operations.

The changes to the Academy/University section are more to facilitate the new education progression system then anything else.
The main problem with the way MW2 handled Education was it was equal parts to complicated and to simple at the same time.
The Academy/University packages were way to generic and don't fit well into anything more then a lump sum equation.
The new packages are geared towards steady and accumulative progression.
For ease of explanation I will provide them here for review.

[victor_shaw]

New Education Packages

Academy/University Packages

1 Term Package: 9 pts (12)
3 Skills at (+3)
3 Skills at (+1)

2 Term Package: 12 pts (16)
4 Skills at (+3)
4 Skills at (+1)

3 Term Package: 15 pts (20)
2 Skills at (+6)
2 Skills at (+3)
2 Skills at (+1)

4 Term Package: 18 pts (24)
2 Skills at (+6)
3 Skills at (+3)
3 Skills at (+1)

6 Term Package: 21 pts (28)
2 Skills at (+6)
4 Skills at (+3)
4 Skills at (+1)

8 Term Package: 24 pts (32)
1 Skill at (+10)
2 Skills at (+6)
2 Skills at (+3)
4 Skills at (+1)

They will have better names in the finished product (suggestions are welcome), but this is what I am looking at right now.
The idea is that say you go to a 4 year university but flunkout in your 3rd year you can take the 2 Term package to represent you time there and if you still have the points go to a 1 year military enlistment and finish your training. All you waste is the year.

[Daryk]

You lose skills going from 2 to 3 and 6 to 8 terms? ???

Fast/Slow Learner seems fiddly, but so was the original, so no loss there.

[victor_shaw]

You lose skills going from 2 to 3 and 6 to 8 terms? ???

Fast/Slow Learner seems fiddly, but so was the original, so no loss there.

It Looks odd but it's about the skill point cost not the number of skills.
You gain the one that indicates the furthest level of education that you obtained at the institution.
You don't actual lose or gain anything as you don't get one then the other.
Also, do to the way the schools work you would not normally go from 2 to 3 or 6 to 8
its normally 2 to 4, 4 to 6, or 4 to 8 so it works out better when you see it in the schools.

As for Fast/Slow Learner, what do you mean by fiddly?
If you are taking about the character creation part, that is just to give it a bonus during that stage.
The real bonus is the reduction in the cost to raise a skill during play.

[Daryk]

I'm just considering a life path where the character washes out but comes back later to finish.  I think it would make more sense if each semester/year builds on the previous ones.

As for "fiddly", I get the main bonus is the ongoing reduction in costs, but that doesn't necessarily reduce the complexity in character creation.

[victor_shaw]

I'm just considering a life path where the character washes out but comes back later to finish.  I think it would make more sense if each semester/year builds on the previous ones.

As for "fiddly", I get the main bonus is the ongoing reduction in costs, but that doesn't necessarily reduce the complexity in character creation.

As I said they are no longer life paths, they are stages.
If you are washed-out you are not coming back later to finish.
What I was saying is you don't lose completed semesters from Washing-out.
What I was suggesting is: If you finish your Semester 4 package time and saves, then you fail you Semester 6 or 8 package (one or the other you don't do both), you pay for and gain the effects of the Semester 4 package.
There is no in-between gains during this process. You don't gain the Semester 4 package then move to the Semester 6 package.
You either gain the Semester 4 package or you gain the Semester 6 package
You only gain the final package you saved for they are not linked in any other way, other then you can try for the next highest package if you allotted the points.
Now in "Academy Days" it does work that way as you actual gain the skills one level at a time and get a refund on skills you didn't gain from your major before you fail out.

The problem with progression being smooth in MW2 is that not the way skills work.
The skill progression is 1 point, 3 points, 6 points, 10 points, etc..
So to get the cost progression where I want it 9,12,15,18,21,24 the balance needs the change in skill numbers.
There is also the skill cost reduction issue (2/3 cost) from the Innersphere packages that has to be addressed meaning that packages have to equal multiples of 4 for it to work right or you come up with fractions.
Lastly, you have the issues that the packages are limited to total cost based on the priority table, max skill points 24.

As for Fast/Slow Learner, not sure how this changes the complexity in character creation in any way.
Characters in the "2nd Edition Advanced Rules" already carry bonus points from one stage to the next.
This is just adding or subtracting 3 points from that.

Unlike in AToW and 3rd, in the 2nd Edition Advanced Rules skills, attributes, and advantages are finalized at the end of each Stage.
For attributes and advantages this is easy as they are full point gains.
For skills, a skill must be brought to the next level barring LRN restrictions, or the points fall into the bonus skill pool.
The skill pool is used to bring skill to the next level if still below LRN, or bring Dedicated skill gains up to the next level in spite of LRN, Pay for extra rerolls on the event tables (3 Skill points, yes you can use Fast Learner for this), Traded for advantage or Rank/Wealth/Vehicle points on a 4 for 1 bases (End of final stage only).

Dedicated skill: Normally bonus skill points are gained in groups that can be assigned to any skill under that group (Basic Training, MOS, Etc.), but some skills are granted as Dedicated skill where all points must be spent on that skill. this is the only case where a skill may exceed the PCs LRN during Stages 1-3, but may not gain more then 2 levels above LRN or 2 levels in a single Stage.   

[Daryk]

I look forward to the "Academy Days" rules...  :)

[Daemion]

Is the vehicle point pool already drawn from Mech assignment? If so, that's pretty cool. If not, I would recommend using that for Mech assignment, as well.

[victor_shaw]

Is the vehicle point pool already drawn from Mech assignment? If so, that's pretty cool. If not, I would recommend using that for Mech assignment, as well.

The point pool is a multi-spectrum pool.
It effect just about everything having to do with your vehicle, fixing some of the issues I had with both MW2 and AToWs handling of the subject.
You Starting pool is 2x the priority point you spend on it plus any gains from Stage choices, Random Events, Specific Advantages, Etc.
It is used for;
1. Base vehicle weight.
2. To move one step up or down Mech assignment table per point.
3. Owning the vehicle.
4. Having a custom model.
5. Having Quirks and Flaws.

It is even used to determine how much you owe to the back for a dropship.
Does that cover it?

[Daemion]

That's good to see. Thanks.

[Daryk]

I'd still like to see the full Vehicle rules...  8)

[victor_shaw]

So it has been quite some time since I was last able to post on this.
As I have given over my GM duties to a trusted friend, and work has stabilized for the most part. I will once again be working on this as it is a passion project of mine, and the PTB have shown little interest in fixing AToW, as obvious with their patchwork fix of just making the point based system to core one.
That said I would like to start by making a few thing clear (clearer) this time.

1. This is a passion project of mine and in the end for me that I am putting out there, as in the past other have show interest in the results. As such, while I will ask for advice and implement well augured changes, in the end some may not agree with me and that's fine. You do you and I'll do me.

2. The elephant in the room (AToW/3rd similarities): While you will find some of the rules seem to be transfers from AToW, this will in general be due to either new material added to AToW/3rd after the end of 2nd and not covered in the latter, or mechanics that were not covered or I feel work better from these two products. This is not an attempt to in full convert AToW/3rd to 2nd mechanics, and should not be (will not be) approached as such. No argument of "but in AToW/3rd" will be entertained. That said, if a good argument for how AToW/3rd did something can be made, it will be considered.

3. Lastly, for the people that already know why I have been absent from all the rest of the forum and have taken to avoiding posting for the most part, nothing has changed on that front so PMing me or posting to this thread are is still the best way to contact me.

Now on to the work at hand.

My time off has given me time to look over what I have done so far and find that I may have gone to far in some areas (skill list, etc.) and fallen short in others (Priority system balance). So as opposed to continuing with what I have and just modifying this or that, I plan to do a complete overhaul of the work from the ground up with the current documents as a template.

Major changes out of the gate.
Name: MechWarrior 2.5 (3025-3050+ InnerSphere Core).
Books: MechWarrior 2.5, Beyond the static (ComStar 3025-3050+), The Clans (Golden age/3050+ Expansion), MechWarrior Legends (Age of War/Starleauge Expansion), Academy Days (Advanced rules for InnerSphere Academy campaigns), Sibko:Way of the Clans (Advanced rules for Clans Sibko campaigns), MechWarrior Field Guide (Integrating Battletech+Mechwarrior)

Reasons for the above:
1. Trying to integrate an unfinished rule system with multiple factions that handle Character creation/advancement differently is one of the main reason why the system became unwieldy.
2. This gives me a chance to work out the bugs in the Main system without having to worry about how everything else works in before it is even finished.
3. The books are for the most part in order of their importance to the RPG as a whole and having them as separate parts will allow GMs/Players to add them at their leisure.
4. it cuts down on the work load for me.

Now to be clear, this is just how they will be worked on and released for playtest and first run. After all of the parts are done a full Edition: Mechwarrior 2 Advanced will be compiled and released.

[Daryk]

Glad to see you back! :)

That said, I'm still an AToW booster, but totally get your position.  I'll try to limit my commentary here to helping your project. :)

[DOC_Agren]

Glad to see this back..