MMLs: Good?

[Sami Jumppanen]

You are mentioning this because it's a canon design, right?  It's my favorite Dervish, by far :D

"By far" is no supprize. That is pretty much only Dervish modell worth mentioning.

[Viragos]

I'll second the idea that MML's are a great upgrade for mechs that dont specialize in a single range bracket like the Orion or T-bolt.

[Sir Chaos]

"By far" is no supprize. That is pretty much only Dervish modell worth mentioning.

The only Dervish model I´ve seen that isn´t worth mentioning is the -1S. Which is worth mentioning as being horrible... so there.

[Kit deSummersville]

You are mentioning this because it's a canon design, right?  It's my favorite Dervish, by far :D

Well, and the one I designed. :)

[willydstyle]

Well thanks for designing it.

[Jim1701]

I have never used MMLs before in my life, but I gather that the answer to the question in the topic is "yes."

MML's have 2 major drawbacks, they are very bulky for their weight and they need a lot of ammo to realize their full potential. On the plus side they are IMHO the MOST flexible weapon system in BT right now short of using omni pods.  On mechs the bulkiness and high ammo requirements can be a problem.  That said, it has already been pointed out that some units that already use long and short range missile systems can benefit.

OTOH, vehicles have much looser space requirements and ammo is stored in one lump sum whether you have one ton or ten so the drawbacks I mentioned above are practically non-existent.  Pretty much any missile tank can benefit from a conversion to MML launchers.  Sure you lose something in overall throw weight but what you gain in short range protection more than makes up for it. 

[bakija]

MML's have 2 major drawbacks, they are very bulky for their weight and they need a lot of ammo to realize their full potential.

I dunno--they are certainly bulky and take up a lot of space, but other than that, they seem pretty reasonable. I'm not convinced that they need any more ammo than a comparable LRM or SRM--the MML7 for example is getting you 17 shots per ton of LRM and 14 shots per ton of SRM. Spread over two MMLs, that is 15.5 turns of continual fire, which is generally enough for most average engagements. If you suck it up and get a third ton of ammo for the two launchers combined, you will have way more ammo than you could ever reasonably expect to use in an average game, and still the two MMLs and 3 tons of ammo will weigh less than the pair of SRMs and pair of LRMs that the MMLs are doing the same job as.

[Jim1701]

True, if you are willing to risk running out of long (or short) range ammo in the middle of the fight.  Notice I said a lot of ammo to realize their full potential.  Sure you can get away with using less ammo but then you risk coming up short in the middle of an engagement. 

[Sir Chaos]

True, if you are willing to risk running out of long (or short) range ammo in the middle of the fight.  Notice I said a lot of ammo to realize their full potential.  Sure you can get away with using less ammo but then you risk coming up short in the middle of an engagement.

To start with, you´d need two tons of ammo to actually have some flexibility (as opposed to having a "poor man´s Omni" for being able to switch between LRM and SRM ammo before a fight). A lot of mechs with only a single SRM launcher or one of the smaller LRM launchers only have a single ton of ammo, so increasing that to two would mean more weight devoted to the system, and more risk of explosion.

If I was, for example, to switch the WVR-6R Wolverine from SRM-6 to twin MML-3, I´d need need to somehow come up with another ton of space for a second ton of MML ammo. The JVN-10N Javelin, on the other hand, could be switched to 4 MML-3, without losing SRM throw weight or needing extra ammo tonnage.

[bakija]

True, if you are willing to risk running out of long (or short) range ammo in the middle of the fight.  Notice I said a lot of ammo to realize their full potential.  Sure you can get away with using less ammo but then you risk coming up short in the middle of an engagement.

Sure, but if your plan is to stay at long range (or short range), you can either load up on a single type of ammo, or better yet, just bring regular LRM or SRM launchers instead. 2x MML7 with 2 tons of LRM ammo is 17 shots per launcher, which is still more than you need most of the time. With a ton of each type, you generally have enough ammo to fire LRMs as you close or when convenient later in the game, and enough SRMs to fire in close as needed. Like, in general, MMLs aren't going to need significantly more tons allocated to ammo than any other missile launcher, assuming that you are using it the way that you plan on it. I mean, yeah, if you have 2 launchers and only a ton of LRM ammo, and you end up trying to fight from R14 the whole game, yeah, you'll run out of ammo. But if your plan is to fight at R14 the whole game, don't bring a half your ammo as SRM.

[cray]

So I'm messing around with building some mechs today and started seriously considering IS MML launchers, and am wondering if they are actually good or not.

I'm not sure if MMLs are worth it for Inner Sphere 'Mechs, but they achieved most things at which the blighted ATMs failed.

[Jim1701]

Sure, but if your plan is to stay at long range (or short range), you can either load up on a single type of ammo, or better yet, just bring regular LRM or SRM launchers instead. 2x MML7 with 2 tons of LRM ammo is 17 shots per launcher, which is still more than you need most of the time. With a ton of each type, you generally have enough ammo to fire LRMs as you close or when convenient later in the game, and enough SRMs to fire in close as needed. Like, in general, MMLs aren't going to need significantly more tons allocated to ammo than any other missile launcher, assuming that you are using it the way that you plan on it. I mean, yeah, if you have 2 launchers and only a ton of LRM ammo, and you end up trying to fight from R14 the whole game, yeah, you'll run out of ammo. But if your plan is to fight at R14 the whole game, don't bring a half your ammo as SRM.

You seem to be arguing a point that I am not making.  Nothing I said disagrees with what you said.  As Sir Chaos says if you want to treat your MML as a poor man's omni system then what you are saying will work.  However, IF YOU WANT THE FULL POTENTIAL FROM YOUR MML SYSTEM you need more ammo which is a lot easier (and less dangerous) to do on a vehicle than a mech. 

[bakija]

You seem to be arguing a point that I am not making.  Nothing I said disagrees with what you said.  As Sir Chaos says if you want to treat your MML as a poor man's omni system then what you are saying will work.  However, IF YOU WANT THE FULL POTENTIAL FROM YOUR MML SYSTEM you need more ammo which is a lot easier (and less dangerous) to do on a vehicle than a mech.

I see that you are saying that. And in bold. And all caps. But that doesn't really help explain what you mean by "the full potential" of an MML system.

It is a flexible weapon system. That fires LRMs when it is good to fire LRMs (i.e. 7+ hexes) and fires SRMs or Infernos when it is good to fire those (i.e. 6 hexes or closer). And given that you know what ammo you have on board, you get to determine what you want to do, and then do that (i.e. if you have all LRM ammo, stay at 7+ hexes; if you have all SRM/Inferno ammo, try and stay in close; if you have a mix, stay flexible and try to use your ammo as effectively as you can). Given that most non MML missile launchers tend to have between 12-20 shots in general, it makes sense that MMLs have about the same amount of ammo. As most scenarios tend to not have more than 15 turns of fire before they are resolved (this is a general statement--yes, once and a while, things will go longer, but in general, 15 turns of ammo is sufficient for most purpose), MMLs should probably have about 15 rounds of ammo each. That the MML can fire two different kinds of ammo doesn't really change this dynamic. You are still unlikely to, in a given game, fire a given MML rack more than 15 times. So assuming you have about 15 rounds of ammo per launcher, which pretty much the same as a non MML missile launcher, you'll do fine in most situations. Which isn't an indication that you need more ammo for an MML than for a non MML.

Yes, if you have a single MML rack, you probably want at least two tons of ammo for it, so you can have two different types. Which is less efficient, ammo wise, than non MML missile racks--if you have an SRM6, you probably have a single ton of ammo (i.e. 15 shots). If you have an LRM10, you probably have a single ton of ammo (i.e. 12 shots, although to be fair, that is probably less ammo than you want most of the time). If you have a single MML9, you probably are going to have 2 tons of ammo so you can carry different types. Which means, really, you want to mount multiple MML racks so that the ammo evens out--a pair of MML7's with a total of 2 tons of ammo is going to have plenty of ammo for a given fight, and will have options for what to fire (as two tons means two different types, if you are so inclined). If you want to go super crazy, have a pair of MMLs and 3 tons of ammo, so you can have 3 different kinds of ammo (LRM, SRM, Inferno, say), but 3 tons of ammo for two missile tubes, especially if they are 7's or 9's, isn't at all out of the realm of reason.

Most of the time, a unit packing multiple MML racks (and as multiple racks is the way to go to make them use ammo efficiently, it seems likely that units will generally pack multiple MML racks) will have no more space/weight spent on ammo than a unit with comparable non MML missile tubes. And if you fire all or most of that ammo, you'll be getting the full potential out of them.

[Jim1701]

My point is that what you want to do and what you will have to do during the course of the battle may not be the same thing.  You may want to stay at 14 hexes for the duration but that does not mean you will get to.  One of the things that an MML launcher gives you is the ability to pack something for all occasions. 

Look at the Crusader 7W or the Longbow 14C.  Both carry a staggering 10 tons of ammo for their MML's.  This gives them the ability to carry plenty of standard ammo plus some specialty ammo of both short and long range variety.  It means I can bring the kitchen sink to the fight.  Unfortunately this means a whole lot of slots where something can go KA-BOOM. 

OTOH, with vehicles it doesn't matter if there is one ton of ammo or twenty so taking advantage of the full flexibility without having to run as big a risk.  Plus the different crit requirements for vehicles means I can usually cram a lot more launchers on a vehicle than I could on a mech.

My philosophy is that MML's increase the chances that I bring something to the fight you are not ready to deal with while at the same time lessening the chances that you bring something to the fight that I can't deal with.  But only if my bins are deep enough and only if the unit does not blow up on round three because you hit one of a dozen different ammo slots. 

[bakija]

My point is that what you want to do and what you will have to do during the course of the battle may not be the same thing.  You may want to stay at 14 hexes for the duration but that does not mean you will get to.  One of the things that an MML launcher gives you is the ability to pack something for all occasions.

Oh, sure. Not everything works out like you expect it to all the time. MMLs certainly get the ability to give you something for every occasion, but I can't see it really taking significantly more ammo than non-MML equipped missile units will have. Most long range LRM support units carry about 2 tons of ammo per launcher. Most SRM equipped units are gonna carry about 1 ton per launcher. MMLs can do different things, but they are still gonna end up using about the same amount of ammo as anyone else.

Look at the Crusader 7W or the Longbow 14C.  Both carry a staggering 10 tons of ammo for their MML's.  This gives them the ability to carry plenty of standard ammo plus some specialty ammo of both short and long range variety.  It means I can bring the kitchen sink to the fight.  Unfortunately this means a whole lot of slots where something can go KA-BOOM.

That seems *really* excessive, ammo-wise. Most units can probably operate totally reasonably with about a ton of ammo per MML. An MML9 (much like a LRM15 or 20) is probably going to want to have 1.5-2 tons of ammo per launcher, assuming at least 2 per launchers per unit. But, like, 10 tons of ammo, unless they are packing 5+ MML9's (which is not likely in any case), is excessive. But then, lots of cannon mechs are saddled with dubious design decisions. 

OTOH, with vehicles it doesn't matter if there is one ton of ammo or twenty so taking advantage of the full flexibility without having to run as big a risk.  Plus the different crit requirements for vehicles means I can usually cram a lot more launchers on a vehicle than I could on a mech.

That seems reasonable. But you can still use MMLs on mechs in ways that make sense and work well.

My philosophy is that MML's increase the chances that I bring something to the fight you are not ready to deal with while at the same time lessening the chances that you bring something to the fight that I can't deal with.  But only if my bins are deep enough and only if the unit does not blow up on round three because you hit one of a dozen different ammo slots.

But again, a dozen is (understandably hyperbolic and) excessive. You got a mech with 2xMML7+Artemis IV? You are going to have 2-3 tons of ammo on that guy. And that is a reasonable way to go about things--you have options, and you have enough ammo for most reasonable engements. You got 2xMML9's on a mech? You are gonna have 3-4 tons of ammo. Just like a mech with 2xLRM15 or 2xLRM20.

[JoeJones]

That seems *really* excessive, ammo-wise. Most units can probably operate totally reasonably with about a ton of ammo per MML. An MML9 (much like a LRM15 or 20) is probably going to want to have 1.5-2 tons of ammo per launcher, assuming at least 2 per launchers per unit. But, like, 10 tons of ammo, unless they are packing 5+ MML9's (which is not likely in any case), is excessive. But then, lots of cannon mechs are saddled with dubious design decisions. 

Actually, the Longbow-14C does carry 6 MML-9s, so that 10 tons is a reasonable ammo load for it.

[Looter]

I perfer the Longbow 13C myself.  6 MML-7 w/AIV and just 6 tons of ammo makes for a very fun fight since it can also fire them without issue.  I have an all Liao force that uses a Men Shen with Dual TC-linked Snubbies and a TAG system to help out when the AIV would be less than efficient.  That and another longbow or Crusader with a Pillager or Thunder to provide an interesting round out to the squad is really fun.  And mean.  MML's have to be one of my favorite weapons. 

[bakija]

Actually, the Longbow-14C does carry 6 MML-9s, so that 10 tons is a reasonable ammo load for it.

Huh. Well, ok then--10 tons of ammo for a mech that has 6 substantial missile launchers is not at all unreasonable. And not significantly different than a similarly armed, non MML mech. 6xMML9 is, what, 36 tons of missile launchers? If those were 36 tons of, say, LRM15's, you'd have 5 of them (35 tons) and you'd want about 2 tons of ammo per launcher anyway (16 shots each which is, again, 10 tons of ammo). If you have 6xMML9? Having 10 tons of ammo isn't at all out of the realm of reasonable. I mean, yeah, very likely to accidentally blow up. But no more likely to blow up than a similarly armed mech with comparable non MML missile launchers.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Huh. Well, ok then--10 tons of ammo for a mech that has 6 substantial missile launchers is not at all unreasonable. And not significantly different than a similarly armed, non MML mech. 6xMML9 is, what, 36 tons of missile launchers? If those were 36 tons of, say, LRM15's, you'd have 5 of them (35 tons) and you'd want about 2 tons of ammo per launcher anyway (16 shots each which is, again, 10 tons of ammo). If you have 6xMML9? Having 10 tons of ammo isn't at all out of the realm of reasonable. I mean, yeah, very likely to accidentally blow up. But no more likely to blow up than a similarly armed mech with comparable non MML missile launchers.

Salamander mech is a good example of a mech that is filled with ammo. 30 tons if missile launchers and 9 tons of ammo.

[JoeJones]

I perfer the Longbow 13C myself.  6 MML-7 w/AIV and just 6 tons of ammo makes for a very fun fight since it can also fire them without issue.  I have an all Liao force that uses a Men Shen with Dual TC-linked Snubbies and a TAG system to help out when the AIV would be less than efficient.  That and another longbow or Crusader with a Pillager or Thunder to provide an interesting round out to the squad is really fun.  And mean.  MML's have to be one of my favorite weapons.

The 13C is my preferred MML Longbow, too. I was just responding to the 5+ MML-9s that bakija mentioned as the minimum for having 10 tons of ammo.

Nothing like flipping your arms and firing 42 Artemis-guided SRMs at the light flanker who thought he was getting a backshot on you...

[Looter]

The 13C is my preferred MML Longbow, too. I was just responding to the 5+ MML-9s that bakija mentioned as the minimum for having 10 tons of ammo.

Nothing like flipping your arms and firing 42 Artemis-guided SRMs at the light flanker who thought he was getting a backshot on you...

Absolutly awesome when that can happen.  Had a friend who ran a Locust or other such light mech behind it and I guess forgot it had flipping arms or was packing enough firepower to vaporize him.  He was kinda unhappy about it.  I on the other hand was very happy with the result.

I have to say on a mech like the longbow if your opponent is used to thinking of them packing LRM's and they run into the LRM minimums they will probably know they have been kissed when it instead fires Tandem Charge SRM's in huge numbers and gets a ton of crits.  Or infernos and shuts down near a mech that can kick through its locations and laugh about it.

[Hellraiser]

I have to say on a mech like the longbow if your opponent is used to thinking of them packing LRM's and they run into the LRM minimums they will probably know they have been kissed when it instead fires Tandem Charge SRM's in huge numbers and gets a ton of crits.  Or infernos and shuts down near a mech that can kick through its locations and laugh about it.

That is the "Full Benefit" that Jim was talking about.

The key to the MML is IMHO best used on designs that pack, LOTS of them.

The fun of those really large ammo bins is that you can take ALL of the various ammo options instead of just one.

I run an Ontos-LRM variant, you know, the one from 3025 w/ 11 tons of Ammo for the LRMs  ;)
I decided to refit it to swap the LRM20/LRM5's out for all MML3's.
Now I pack 48 tubes instead of 50.
But I can share ammo betwen bins & I regularly run NARC, SemiGuilded, Inferno, Thunder (T-Aug), Tandem Charged, Smoke.  You name it.

No one wants to deal with that mess.

On a Mech you'd be hard pressed to get that many MML tubes, but on a tank it fits much easier.

[Sir Chaos]

I run an Ontos-LRM variant, you know, the one from 3025 w/ 11 tons of Ammo for the LRMs  ;)
I decided to refit it to swap the LRM20/LRM5's out for all MML3's.
Now I pack 48 tubes instead of 50.
But I can share ammo betwen bins & I regularly run NARC, SemiGuilded, Inferno, Thunder (T-Aug), Tandem Charged, Smoke.  You name it.

Evil. I like it.

[va_wanderer]

That is the "Full Benefit" that Jim was talking about.

The key to the MML is IMHO best used on designs that pack, LOTS of them.

The fun of those really large ammo bins is that you can take ALL of the various ammo options instead of just one.

I run an Ontos-LRM variant, you know, the one from 3025 w/ 11 tons of Ammo for the LRMs  ;)
I decided to refit it to swap the LRM20/LRM5's out for all MML3's.
Now I pack 48 tubes instead of 50.
But I can share ammo betwen bins & I regularly run NARC, SemiGuilded, Inferno, Thunder (T-Aug), Tandem Charged, Smoke.  You name it.

No one wants to deal with that mess.

On a Mech you'd be hard pressed to get that many MML tubes, but on a tank it fits much easier.

Not to mention the truly obscene number of hits you get at range.

That's up to sixteen rolls on the hit chart in LRM mode.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

A couple thoughts.

While higher density per tube seems to make the MML a poor choice for a firesupport missile boat, you can potentially make it up on the backside two ways.  One, close in weapons can be paired down in exchange for a spare ton of SRM ammo.  Two, you don't need use dedicated close in bodyguards.

Take a typical firesupport lance primarily equipped with ARC-4M Archers.  Typically if you have three Archers you'd have a fourth mech as a close in design to get someone that tries to rush under the LRM minimums.  That is 120 LRMs for 12 turns.  Now take the same Archer, and replace each Artemised LRM-20 with a pair of Artemised MML-7s.  True you have to play crit games, either stuffing half the ammo into the legs, or half the missile racks into the arms, but it can just all fit in there.  Now when building that firesupport lance, instead of 'three Archers and an escort', I put in four MML Archers.  That is 28 times 4, or a 112 missles at 12 salvos, plus a follow on three quarters salvo.  That is 3 tons of LRM ammo, and a ton of SRM ammo gives three and a half salvos.

Also if the fight moves into urban or other close terrain I can load the MML Archers with primarily SRM ammo and turn them into brutal muggers, while the standard ARC-4M triplet would best be used waiting to IDF to be called in, and I'm not sure it is a good risk to release the bodyguard at that point.  The enemy might try to sortie out and catch your Archers while they are separated.

[bakija]

While higher density per tube seems to make the MML a poor choice for a firesupport missile boat, you can potentially make it up on the backside two ways.  One, close in weapons can be paired down in exchange for a spare ton of SRM ammo.  Two, you don't need use dedicated close in bodyguards.

Yeah, I don't think MMLs are particularly good for a dedicated fire support unit; if your plan is to stand and long range and fire LRMs until you run out of LRMs and then leave, use a guy with LRMs--a dedicated LRM rack is always gonna be more efficient, space/weight wise. They are good for having a combo of ammos, so you can fire LRMs when closing or retreating or 'cause you happen to be standing at range 7 exactly, and then SRMs when you are at ranges 6 or closer.

[Kit deSummersville]

Yeah, I don't think MMLs are particularly good for a dedicated fire support unit;

They can be helpful as 'accessories'. A pair of MML-5s with 30-40 LRM tubes adds a few missiles at long range and 10 SRMs when the enemy gets in your face.

[bakija]

They can be helpful as 'accessories'. A pair of MML-5s with 30-40 LRM tubes adds a few missiles at long range and 10 SRMs when the enemy gets in your face.

This is certainly true. I'd be more inclined to just have a few medium lasers in case things get too close instead, but if you can fit a couple MML5s on a heavy long range fire support mech, I can certainly see that working out ok.

[Kobold]

If your game allows for hot-loading LRMs, does that change the usefulness of MMLs?  Is the hypothetical ARC-4M lance better off just staying with hot-loaded LRMs?

[Kit deSummersville]

If your game allows for hot-loading LRMs, does that change the usefulness of MMLs?  Is the hypothetical ARC-4M lance better off just staying with hot-loaded LRMs?

No, 14 SRMs have an average damage around 20. Hot-loaded LRMs will be rolling 3d6, take the lowest one, a pair of 20s will be around 18 damage. Plus the whole exploding launcher bit.