Better deal; Hardened armor, or Ferro-Lamellar?

[Arkansas Warrior]

So, you want to make your ride as survivable as possible.  For the clans, it seems like one or the other would be a no-brainer. But which is better?  I'm fairly certain the answer, as in most things, is "it depends".  So, when is one better, when the other?

[Savage Coyote]

"It depends!"  :D

I prefer the crit-eating space of ferro-lamellar to the -1 MP, +1 PSR of hardened.  Now, I haven't actually used hardened so, but in the theory the downsides out weigh (compared to ferro-lamellar) the positives.

[snewsom2997]

For Mechs, Neither, FL takes too much space, and the weight and movement penalty on Hardened Armor is more than I like.
For vehicles Ferro-Lamellor, for ASF Ferro-Lamellor.
For Structures Hardened Armor

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

FL.  Hardened eats up too much tonnage if you want to use it in sufficient quantities to be worth it.  FL's eats up a lot of crits for Clan equipment, but it's like the only thing they've got that does.  With the relatively low number of crits taken up by most other Clan equipment (DHS, XL engines, most weapons, ect) it's really not an issue most of the time.

[CloaknDagger]

Hardened armor is just a fancy way of adding more armor to a mech. You still have to pay for every ton, plus the downsides of PSRs and speed, although taking 40 damage to force a PSR largely makes up for the -1 to said PSR.

Lamellor is just better armor. And it makes LBX weapons pretty much obselete, even more than they already were for the Clans. It also hits SRMs, and small weapons hard, plus it effectively give you a bonus to PSRs because you have to get 24 points of damage to force one. Plus you can take a 12 point hit to the head and survive.

So, in conclusion:

Lamellor + Reinforced Structure dominate.

Osteon forever!

[MarauderD]

Only 20 damage causes a PSR on hardened, even if the mech only takes 10, IIRC.

[CloaknDagger]

Only 20 damage causes a PSR on hardened, even if the mech only takes 10, IIRC.

No, it takes damage in half points, so it counts as doubling the armor limit. If they didn't want to just say it doubles the max armor, then that must be the reason why.

[MarauderD]

I'm pretty sure Paul clarified this recently, I just don't know where.

I found out by playing megamek. If you use two PPCs, a hardened armor mech only takes ten damage. But it rolls a PSR. Try it out.

[MarauderD]

Alas. You still incur the damage, it just affects the armor differently. So, receive an AC20 hit, mark off 10 armor points and resolve a PSR.

Found it!

[Firesprocket]

If patchwork is an option?  I'm all for a little of both.  Between the two though I'm going to take Ferro Lamellor.  If for no other reason that it frustrates the heck out of the guy in my group that loves his LB ACs.

[Aldous]

Can someone explain Lamellor's effect on LB-X and SRMs?

[stoicfaux]

So much was lost when the old forums disappeared.

[CloaknDagger]

Can someone explain Lamellor's effect on LB-X and SRMs?

No cluster damage, SRMs only do 1 point of hurt.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Can someone explain Lamellor's effect on LB-X and SRMs?

FL armor reduces all damage clusters by 1 point per every 5 points, with a minimum reduction of 1 point of damage.  This makes the target completely immune to damage that's dealt in 1 point clusters, like LB-X cluster rounds.

[ScannerError]

...For vehicles Ferro-Lamellor...

Disagree.  You still take motive crits even if the damage is reduced to 0, so Ferro-lam doesn't actually increase protection for them as much as it appears to (only thing it stops is LBX/LMG location roll crits).  Hardened armor only gives the PSR penalty on vees, not the MP penalty, and gives a -2 on any location roll crits that do happen (meaning while it doesn't outright negate LBX location crits, it protects against them and EVERY other weapon that gets them).  Technically, it even protects against Inferno SRMs (as those inflict penetrating crits on vehicles). 

[CloaknDagger]

Disagree.  You still take motive crits even if the damage is reduced to 0, so Ferro-lam doesn't actually increase protection for them as much as it appears to (only thing it stops is LBX/LMG location roll crits).  Hardened armor only gives the PSR penalty on vees, not the MP penalty, and gives a -2 on any location roll crits that do happen (meaning while it doesn't outright negate LBX location crits, it protects against them and EVERY other weapon that gets them).  Technically, it even protects against Inferno SRMs (as those inflict penetrating crits on vehicles).

True, but Lamellor gives more protection per ton. Similar to FF, except SRMs and LBX are some of the best weapons against vees, and they are more likely to get the disproportionate protection from them.

[SCC]

Disagree.  You still take motive crits even if the damage is reduced to 0, so Ferro-lam doesn't actually increase protection for them as much as it appears to (only thing it stops is LBX/LMG location roll crits).  Hardened armor only gives the PSR penalty on vees, not the MP penalty, and gives a -2 on any location roll crits that do happen (meaning while it doesn't outright negate LBX location crits, it protects against them and EVERY other weapon that gets them).  Technically, it even protects against Inferno SRMs (as those inflict penetrating crits on vehicles).

I asked a question about Infernos and Hardened Armor a while back, apparently I flubbed the question, I've bumped it and re-worded it, hopefully an answer is forth coming ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26708.0.html )

And while you do technically make motive damage rolls, I doubt people will let you if you're making a LOT of them (Like multiple LB-X's per round)

[ScannerError]

And while you do technically make motive damage rolls, I doubt people will let you if you're making a LOT of them (Like multiple LB-X's per round)

It's not some odd interaction of the rules here, it's right there in the Ferro-lam rules.

Weapons reduced to zero damage effects by Ferro-Lamellor Armor (such as LB-X cluster munitions), may not inflict pilot injury in the event of a cockpit-location hit, nor may they deliver a penetrating or “floating” critical from special hit location rolls.  However, against Combat and Support Vehicles, such weapons may inflict Motive System damage effects normally (because such units feature more exposed movement mechanisms).

Yeah, you can ignore it as a houserule, but that's not useful for a general discussion on the usefulness of it.  And as to having to roll a lot of them from LBX hits, if you're using that much LBX in person you're probably using a dicebox to speed up rolling already, so it shouldn't take that much longer to resolve the motive crits (especially with only 4 effects, one of which overrides all the others). 

[SCC]

It's not some odd interaction of the rules here, it's right there in the Ferro-lam rules.Yeah, you can ignore it as a houserule, but that's not useful for a general discussion on the usefulness of it.  And as to having to roll a lot of them from LBX hits, if you're using that much LBX in person you're probably using a dicebox to speed up rolling already, so it shouldn't take that much longer to resolve the motive crits (especially with only 4 effects, one of which overrides all the others).

What I was saying was if somebody did something like fire several LB-20X's at a F-L armored vehicle I doubt your group is going to stand around an roll those hits, especially if this isn't the first turn he's done it

[Col Toda]

This again .  Hardend is far more available and has been in the Inner Sphere since sometime in the late 3040s I think.
You can be supplied with it in any number of places where Ferro-Lamellar is only available through one Clan and a little from the WOB who stole the technology at the very end of the Jihad .  A large amount is always in supply in Solaris VII as many of the mechs there use it ( Grand Turtle ) just being one. Armor is ablative and is only any good if you can replace it . Ferro - Lamellar armor is too easy to prevent you from getting a big supply all you competitors have to do is buy out any supply to anywhere you are likely going to .  Also it is Clan tech as Such it Cost 2 - 2.8 X the listed price for just about anyone after market . Hardend is available by both and as such would only cost the list price in most cases .

[LastChanceCav]

I prefer ferro-lamellar, the boost in protection without extra weight, piloting or mobility penalties makes it my favorite armor in the game. It does eat a lot of crits compared to other clan technology, but because all the other clan gear is so compact to can get away with it. I usually play with regular pilots, so hardened armored machines wind up going down a lot - the falling damage winds up wasting some of the extra protection you gained, and being down further reduces a hardened armored mech's ability to deal damage back (already limited compared to other machines because of the mass committed to the armor).

Cheers,
LCC

EDIT: The Temblor is my take on how I'd like to see FL armor used by the Clans.

[ScannerError]

What I was saying was if somebody did something like fire several LB-20X's at a F-L armored vehicle I doubt your group is going to stand around an roll those hits, especially if this isn't the first turn he's done it

There's not much different from that and shooting several LBX-20s at a vehicle in the first place.  You're not going to be doing that for the damage, you're doing it for the motive crits, and those don't change if the vehicle has Ferro-Lam or not.  If the FL user wants to shortcut to the inevitable result of a one-turn multiple LBX-20 barrage and just mark the vehicle as immobile, that's fine as a shortcut.  But suddenly ignoring a drawback because someone chose to use experimental armor while doing the same thing that has to do for any vehicle hit by multiple LBXs in a turn doesn't make sense (if anything, it's slightly quicker as you don't need to mark off any armor bubbles, though the time saved due to that is miniscule). 

[Sabelkatten]

Hardened on slow heavy mechs, FL on most other things. Of course the PSR penalty for Hardened hurts quite a bit on heavier units and the obvious solution (quad chassis) means you're blowing the crits you save by not using FL anyway... So you really need to get a good pilot!

[LastChanceCav]

Hardened on slow heavy mechs, FL on most other things. Of course the PSR penalty for Hardened hurts quite a bit on heavier units and the obvious solution (quad chassis) means you're blowing the crits you save by not using FL anyway... So you really need to get a good pilot!

A bit along these lines I'd say FL for most pilots, and hardened for elite ones. Which is the opposite of who uses the two in universe  ???

Cheers,
LCC

[Fenris]

I love hardened armor, especially on assaults. Basically no TACs and you can virtually have up to 614 points of armor, which is just insane. Though I prefer the 30 to 33 tons of armor tier for my 90 to 100 ton mechs.

[Fenris]

Hardened on slow heavy mechs, FL on most other things. Of course the PSR penalty for Hardened hurts quite a bit on heavier units and the obvious solution (quad chassis) means you're blowing the crits you save by not using FL anyway... So you really need to get a good pilot!

Well, it takes double the damage to force a PSR, so I can't really share your sentiment.

[Savage Coyote]

Well, it takes double the damage to force a PSR, so I can't really second your point.

Nope, "twenty" damage on hardened armor still forces a PSR.  As Paul was quoted earlier in the thread, you still took twenty damage, but because of how the armor works, you only marked off ten points from the armor.  It's still a PSR.

[MarauderD]

Yeah, it seems a pretty common mistakenly held belief--hardened armor doesn't help avoid PSRs. They are just as frequent as with normal armor. Thank heavens, or hardened armor would be really, really scary instead of just daunting.

[MarauderD]

I still have this faint hope that re-engineered lasers will defeat both armors like I heard it did in MW:DA.

A man can dream.  >:D

[Fenris]

Huh... so 10 points of "hardened" armor points of damage still force a PSR? That is... disappointing.