Better deal; Hardened armor, or Ferro-Lamellar?

[MarauderD]

Yeah, the hardened armor takes 20 points of damage and marks off 10 bubbles, so its a PSR. As opposed to reflective, which would reduce the damage taken, and thereby not have the PSR.

2 PPC hits on hardened: 20 points of damage marks off 10 bubbles total, PSR.

2 PPC hits on reflective: each hit is divided by 2, then applied to the armor. Takes only 10 damage, mark off 10 bubbles, no PSR.

[Savage Coyote]

Yeah... the PSR is based solely on how much damage the weapon inflicted is my understanding.  So the AC-20 to the face is twenty damage, forcing a PSR.  Then the armor kicks in and absorbs ten of that so that you end up only marking ten points off the sheet.

[MarauderD]

Ferro-Lamellor seems better to me for the reasons recently clarified above. The weapon systems that it effectively neuters are some of the most dangerous in the game. Not only do LB-X weapons do no damage, but SRMS and RAC-2s both get de-fanged by this armor just by removing that first point of damage. A streak-6 isn't so painful when it is a total of 6 damage spread across your mech.

Also, the +1 PSR for hardened armor is a pretty serious issue. I played against it a lot after the TRO 3145FS came out and realized that unless you have an elite pilot, they really do spend a lot of time on their heinies. A friend of mine loved the Hitotsume-Kozo and would bring it to every lance on lance fight we did for about a week. Through focus fire, once I "dumped" his favorite toy, I'd just put 20-40 damage into every round, and his pilot would either stay down or go back down.

Piloting 5 + 2 (40 points damage) + 1 (hardened armor) + 0 (medium weight mech)=8 required for the PSR roll. So I'd dump his favorite new toy, and then normally luck would have it and it would fall down at least one more time on its own accord.

Now could I do this if it was equipped with Ferro-Lamellor? Sure. But, the extra 1 point PSR penalty (for Hardened Armor) is very helpful when it comes time for my friend to be making the roll to stand up (and failing).

My experience with Hardened Armor is that it looks scary and its easy to be daunted by a mech like the Shiro or Hitotsume Kozo. However, after 10+ matches, it seems like the drawbacks to Hardened Armor during gameplay really bring it back down to earth. The drawbacks to Ferro-Lamellor only take place when you need to have enough crit space.

If I had the choice, I'd go F-L every time unless I knew I had the spare BV to put a kick-butt pilot in the mech with Hardened Armor. A 2/3 pilot in a Hitotsume-Kozo or Shiro would be a scary, scary thing.

[Firesprocket]

Huh... so 10 points of "hardened" armor points of damage still force a PSR? That is... disappointing.

correct.  It does not reduce the damage.  Each armor point absorbs 2 points of damage from a weapon.  20 Points of damage still occured.

[Wildonion]

If hardened armor really did redirect damage better (rather than just absorb it better) then the Stalker II would have been a much more desirable chassis, even with the PSR penalty. I almost think hardened needs to work that way, or remove the PSR and/or speed penalty, just to compete with newer armors. The penalties on hardened are just too severe otherwise.

[SCC]

That means an AC-10 firing AP ammo forces a PSR on Hardened Armor

[Fenris]

Piloting 5 + 2 (40 points damage) + 1 (hardened armor) + 0 (medium weight mech)=8 required for the PSR roll. So I'd dump his favorite new toy, and then normally luck would have it and it would fall down at least one more time on its own accord.

I was just reading up on that in TW again and I'm a bit confused... why do you add +2 instead of +1 for the 40 damage and why do you mention the mech's weight? Under "PILOTING/DRIVING SKILL ROLLS" I find nothing of the sorts. Could you please clarify?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

He's using optional PSR modifiers from TacOps.

[Fenris]

Ah, alright. thx.

So on a 100 ton mech, you would have 5 (Pilot Skill) -2 (Assault) +1 (Hardened) +1/2 (20/40damage) = 5/6 as TN for your dice throw. I deem that acceptable.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Yeah... the PSR is based solely on how much damage the weapon inflicted is my understanding.  So the AC-20 to the face is twenty damage, forcing a PSR.  Then the armor kicks in and absorbs ten of that so that you end up only marking ten points off the sheet.

OTOH, an AC/20 to the face is survivable for hardened armor.

The Ferro-Lamellar mech doesn't need to worry about the PSR because it is dead.

[Arkansas Warrior]

That means an AC-10 firing AP ammo forces a PSR on Hardened Armor

How's that?

[CloaknDagger]

OTOH, an AC/20 to the face is survivable for hardened armor.

The Ferro-Lamellar mech doesn't need to worry about the PSR because it is dead.

Barely, and an HGauss will still do it in. A Lamellor/Reinforced mech can still tank a CERPPC or Gauss to the face though.

[Fenris]

Good thing then that most iHGRs/HGRs can be found on Lyran units :)

[Scotty]

Actually, with the combination of Hardened and a shield (of any type, I think), heads can now be made 100% survivable against any single ranged hit. :D

40 point hatchet hits are still able to get through, but those are few and far between.

[MarauderD]

Ah, alright. thx.

So on a 100 ton mech, you would have 5 (Pilot Skill) -2 (Assault) +1 (Hardened) +1/2 (20/40damage) = 5/6 as TN for your dice throw. I deem that acceptable.

On a 100 ton slowbie, you are moving 3/4. If you are armed like the Stalker   
 II, then people will just stay outside your "power band" or even worse, just ignore you. The DCMS mechs are impossible to ignore because they can move, and they can bring the pain with melee weapons.

Good news is that your 100 ton assault gets the -2 to TacOps PSR bonus. I'd still think you'd be better off with F-L on a heavy assault. That is what makes BattleTech great though! To each their own!!

[CloaknDagger]

Actually, with the combination of Hardened and a shield (of any type, I think), heads can now be made 100% survivable against any single ranged hit. :D

Didn't think of the shield. But really lamellor is better for mixing with other defenses. Modular and shielding and reinforced are just too HEAVY to go with hardened well, and the slow down is intolerable.

Plus, there's always this: Your opponents has multiple mechs with shields and full Ferro-Lamellor armor. Do you take LBX and Cluster weapons against him? Or do you leave them behind? What's the best answer?*

*It's a trick question, he wins either way.

[ialdabaoth]

Of course, Ferro-Lamellar really shines on VTOLs, where it renders them immune to the one attack they were most vulnerable to (the LB-X cluster).

I generally prefer Hardened Armor on superheavies, and Ferro-Lamellar (if I can fit it) on anything 100 tons or less.

The *real* value of Hardened Armor isn't in absorbing hits, it's in causing your opponent to just give up on attacking the unit altogether. A 200 ton superheavy tank or superheavy battlemech with 78 tons of hardened armor will tend to make your opponent say "screw it, it's not worth it", especially since that's 40+ tons that you didn't devote to weaponry.

You have now guaranteed that the weaponry you *did* mount will last for the entire rest of the game. A few Heavy PPCs or Light Gauss Rifles can put on constant pressure, and as soon as they cause a breach, your other units can close in like sharks smelling blood.

[SCC]

How's that?

Attacks with Armor Piercing properties, like AC AP Ammo, don't get their crit chance against either Hardened Armor or Ferro-Lamellar, instead they do their normal damage, so an AC/10 firing AP at a Hardened Armor protected unit removes 10 bubbles, effectively 20 points worth of armor

Of course, Ferro-Lamellar really shines on VTOLs, where it renders them immune to the one attack they were most vulnerable to (the LB-X cluster).

No it doesn't, if the rotor location is hit they still take the speed loss even if it does no damage

And on the subject of PSR, 'Mechs only make ONE roll and incur a single +1 modifier to their PSR's if they take more than 20 points of damage, it doesn't increase if they suffer 40 or another whole number multiplier of 20

[Scotty]

Attacks with Armor Piercing properties, like AC AP Ammo, don't get their crit chance against either Hardened Armor or Ferro-Lamellar, instead they do their normal damage, so an AC/10 firing AP at a Hardened Armor protected unit removes 10 bubbles, effectively 20 points worth of armor

Hold up.  There's a disconnect here for how hardened armor takes damage.

Each point of hardened armor can take two points of damage to mark off one point.  This allows the wording of the rules to still mean that 20 points (10 hardened points) is enough  to cause a PSR.

AP munitions flat out deal their damage differently.  They do not inflict "double damage" they inflict damage "as normal".  This means they deal ten points of damage that just so happen to remove ten points of armor from hardened armor.

[Arkansas Warrior]

No it doesn't, if the rotor location is hit they still take the speed loss even if it does no damage

Yeah, but the rotor doesn't get shot off as quickly.

[MarauderD]

And on the subject of PSR, 'Mechs only make ONE roll and incur a single +1 modifier to their PSR's if they take more than 20 points of damage, it doesn't increase if they suffer 40 or another whole number multiplier of 20

It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, but I think there is a TacOps optional rule that increases the modifier by one for every 20 damage a mech takes in that round. If not, then I guess it has just been a house rule!

*I forgot I had a PDF of TacOps on my laptop. I checked it this morning, and there is a rule whereby for every multiple of 20 damage, you incur a +1 penalty to your PSR. So if you take 40 damage, it is +2, 60 damage, +3, etc etc. Which makes sense in a way, not that BattleTech rules require any sense to be made.

So if an entire company unloads on a mech and hits it, losing all that armor is going to pretty much guarantee that you fall down. (Kai Allard-Liao and Natasha Kerensky not withstanding)

[Fenris]

On a 100 ton slowbie, you are moving 3/4.

Well... there are ways to work around this issue... ;)

[Fenris]

Of course, Ferro-Lamellar really shines on VTOLs, where it renders them immune to the one attack they were most vulnerable to (the LB-X cluster).

From what I understand rotor hits are still possible.

[ialdabaoth]

Also: another reason to choose Hardened Armor is for those assets that REALLY need protecting, like C3 company commanders.

A 200-ton 'mech with hardened armor, two boosted C3 computers, and two full-sized Long Toms is a gift that keeps on giving.

[Wildonion]

It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, but I think there is a TacOps optional rule that increases the modifier by one for every 20 damage a mech takes in that round. If not, then I guess it has just been a house rule!

Said rule is in TacOps, on page 23 with the mods based on weight class.

[marcussmythe]

Im iffy about Hardened Armor on mechs that can fall down, or are not already slow or already very, very fast.

Maximum Hardened Armor is just screaming for death-by-shaking for your pilot... he will be dead of 1 point head hits and falling long before the mech fails.  A torso cockpit is the only thing that offsets MOST of that death-by-shaking... but then your even more likely to fall.

Which leads me to believe that the 'niche' for Hardened Armor is torso-cockpit quads and any vehicle ever (-2 to through-armor-crits is a godsend on vees... better, IMHO, than armored motive system)

Remind me to get to work on a 3145 Guliterrie (sp) and Grand Tortise variant...

[Col Toda]

The first canon mech with hardened armor was the Solaris VII Grand Turtle This mech was a Quad armed with X-Pulse lasers . The quad part eliminates the pilot skill roll problem and then some .  The exclusive energy boat weaponry is the least mass solution for the damage VS mass design aspect .  Hardened armor has no Crit spaces need and that leaves enough for endo steel .  The NO Crit Spaces seem lost on many people . In a campaign you can start fielding units with hardended armor more than 20 years before ferro - lamellar .  Even when ferro - lamellar becomes available unless you are the Snow Ravens Clan you have to go though many hoops and maybe owned by a company store just to keep even a lance in supply of this rare armor.  I am not saying functionally the new armor is very good even great ; but who are you going to choose who owns your company by fielding it in more than a single light lance of the stuff at best .  Larger than that you may as well be the OP Force of the guy running the Campaign .

[Kitsune413]

OTOH, an AC/20 to the face is survivable for hardened armor.

The Ferro-Lamellar mech doesn't need to worry about the PSR because it is dead.

Sadly doesn't stop clan ppc or gauss rounds either. =\

[CloaknDagger]

Sadly doesn't stop clan ppc or gauss rounds either. =\

It does with reinforced structure.

[Fenris]

The first canon mech with hardened armor was the Solaris VII Grand Turtle This mech was a Quad armed with X-Pulse lasers . The quad part eliminates the pilot skill roll problem and then some . 

I dare say the "assault" weight class already eliminates the PSR problem.