Better deal; Hardened armor, or Ferro-Lamellar?

[Arkansas Warrior]

I dare say the "assault" weight class already eliminates the PSR problem.

Not for those who don't use that TacOps rule.

[Kitsune413]

It does with reinforced structure.

Which I feel like should have been in the savage wolf.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That would have killed the SW's pod space.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It also eats 11 tons(relative to endo, 7.5 relative to standard), whereas 6.5 were gained by the XXL engine (relative to an XL).  You'd be better off with standard and an XL that reinforced and an XXL, from a tonnage standpoint.  Reinforced does give you more crits though.

[CloaknDagger]

Which I feel like should have been in the savage wolf.

It's in the Osteon.

Another option though is a small shield on each arm in addition to Lamellor. You have to design around the shields, and they aren't too durable, but it can work.

[Col Toda]

Canon or otherwise ?  Has anyone ever seen a mech with Reinforced Internal Structure ? I certainally have not and the Canon mech the Snow Ravens use with the armor does not . The combination between Hardend Armor and Reinforced Internal Structure nearly makes a Mech Immune to floating crits .

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Antlion in TRO3145FS uses reinforced IS.  Not in combo with hardened though.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given the tonnage involved, a mech that tried to combine Hardened Armor and Reinforced Structure seems like the only things it would have to worry about taking crits would be the engine and gyro.  It wouldn't have the mass needed for anything else.

[CloaknDagger]

Canon or otherwise ?  Has anyone ever seen a mech with Reinforced Internal Structure ? I certainally have not and the Canon mech the Snow Ravens use with the armor does not . The combination between Hardend Armor and Reinforced Internal Structure nearly makes a Mech Immune to floating crits .

The Osteon is a tough nut to crack.

Reinforced and hardened at once eats too much weight. That's why the Osteon uses reinforced and lamellor.

[LastChanceCav]

I believe the Hunchback in TRO Prototypes also uses Reinforced structure, or maybe it was on of the XTROs, or both - I can't recall for sure and I don't have my PDFs at work.

Cheers,
LCC

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Both versions do, though neither use Hardened Armor- the XTRO version uses standard Ferro while the TRO Prototypes model uses Light Ferro.

[Sabelkatten]

Given the tonnage involved, a mech that tried to combine Hardened Armor and Reinforced Structure seems like the only things it would have to worry about taking crits would be the engine and gyro.  It wouldn't have the mass needed for anything else.

A quick check says a 3/5 XLFE 100-tonner with reinforced IS and 38 tons hardened armor still has 26.5 tons left. That's enough to fit a useful - if not particularly impressive - armament.

Even 4/6 is sort of workable. At least if ~15 tons of armament is enough for you... 5/8 isn't good for much other than extreme C3 spotters, thought. After the slave unit you don't have many tons left!

[ialdabaoth]

26 tons is enough for two Heavy PPC's and 16 DHS; that's good enough for me.

[Rogue190]

Noone seems to have mentioned the fact that FL armor doesn't protect you from armor piercing munitions such as tandem charge SRMs and it is not nearly as effective against heavy weapons fire as hardened is.  Hardened also helps protect against critical hits while FL doesn't.  It is really no contest as far as I am concerned.  FL is also 14 points per ton so it is heavier than standard or hardened equivalent.  I've won games purely by making my opponent shoot at my hardened armor unit and waste rounds of firepower on just one unit.  In that sense it does depend on army comp.

[Wildonion]

How well does a heavy armor 'Mech fare once a couple of speedier 'Mechs outmaneuver it? Because I would imagine that repeated kicks from a pair of Spiders would eventually cause your brick to pull a turtle-on-his-back impression.

[CloaknDagger]

Noone seems to have mentioned the fact that FL armor doesn't protect you from armor piercing munitions such as tandem charge SRMs

Except it does.

Hardened also helps protect against critical hits while FL doesn't.

Making 1 damage hits do no damage, while not a huge crit reduction, is still significant. Especially with rules like the glancing blow.

It is really no contest as far as I am concerned.  FL is also 14 points per ton so it is heavier than standard or hardened equivalent.

Yes, but every weapon that hits it only does 80% or less damage. So it's actually about 17.5 points per ton.

[Col Toda]

The Antlion in the 3145 TRO which has yet to be printed in hard copy and just available on PDF . No wonder I have never seen it I have yet been in a game that got that far in the time line 3085 is the limit so far as I know for anyone running a campaign . FL armor is new I think 3068 or a little later . It is not likely to leave the Snow Raven or WOB faction until nearly 3100 at the soonest as the Snow Ravens would hold on to it like the Diamond Sharks held Harjel with every resource possible so even 3100 may be too soon for it to become available to outsiders and if you challenge for some you are likely to lose as much as you gain .
Were hardend armor is much ; much more common and is identical for clan or inner sphere available at Solaris VII and Diamond Shark trading posts .

[Arkansas Warrior]

There's no artificial limit stopping campaigns post-3085.  Even if there was, how could CGL possibly enforce it?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I like how the discussion was about a comparison of the two types of armors relative effectiveness and some people keep bringing up that Hardened Armor is more widely distributed.

[CloaknDagger]

Were hardend armor is much ; much more common and is identical for clan or inner sphere available at Solaris VII and Diamond Shark trading posts .

Lamellor is also available at Diamond Shark trading posts.  ;)

I like how the discussion was about a comparison of the two types of armors relative effectiveness and some people keep bringing up that Hardened Armor is more widely distributed.

And they forget that Hardened doesn't work with much superior omnis.

[stoicfaux]

Yes, but every weapon that hits it only does 80% or less damage. So it's actually about 17.5 points per ton.

This ^^.  At at minimum (i.e. against 5 pt clusters,) FL provides 125% protection or 17.5 effective points of armor per ton.  Hardened provides an effective 16 points of armor per ton.  Against 2pt SRMs, FL provides 28 effective points of armor.


Att Dmg - points of damage of the attack
Dmg Red - points reduced by FL
Eff Pts per ton - How many "effective" points of armor you're getting.

Att Dmg  Eff Pts
Dmg Red  per ton
 2    1  28.00
 3    1  21.00
 4    1  18.67
 5    1  17.50
 6    2  21.00
 7    2  19.60
 8    2  18.67
 9    2  18.00
10    2  17.50
11    3  19.25
12    3  18.67
13    3  18.20
14    3  17.82
15    3  17.50
16    4  18.67
17    4  18.31
18    4  18.00
19    4  17.73
20    4  17.50


Worst case, FL provides a ~9% more armor points per ton than hardened (17.5 / 16 = 1.09375.)  Which means you need to carry more than 9% more tons of hardened armor to out-perform FL's worst case scenario. 

There's also the edge case where a single point of FL armor applies damage reduction, e.g. a single point of FL armor remaining in a location reduces a 20 point hit to down to 15 points of damage passing through to the IS, whereas a single point of hardened armor remaining reduces that to 18 points.

[Col Toda]

Gauss Rifle ; AC - LBX 20 ; Homing Arrow IV ; Clan PPC or PPC or Snub - Nose PPC + Capacitor ; and Heavy PPC .
They have never been more head removal weaponry fielded your point is correct however with many of these weapons fielded with FL you still lose your head 1 in 72 times hit with these weapons and you do not with hardened so long as it has not taken any damage before this . So you are quite correct FL is 9% better protection in general but fighting my company that fields 6 Gauss Rifles and 3 Snub - Nose PPC +Capacitors and 3 Arrow IV Launchers that 1 - 72 Chance may happen every 4 turns or so.
Against an Opponant with Hardened I would not have a good chance to even head cap one them. I fight WOB and Clans with the best defense is a good offense tactic . FL eats 14 Crit spaces and The IS eats still more leaving what for anything else ?

[stoicfaux]

fyi, it's a 1 in 36 chance.

There's an optional TacOps rule to allowed mixed armor on a mech.  Using hardened armor just on the head (i.e. Patchwork Armor rules pg 377 TacOps) doesn't incur the hardened armor movement penalty.  So you could have the best of both worlds.

[Col Toda]

Does Skunkworks or heavy metal do patchwork armor yet? You are quite right about the odds but my luck has almost always been really bad so by doubling the odds is more representaive of what happens  as the odds represents hits as opposed to how much you shoot and how accurate you are . You might more than half the time but most mechs only have 1 head capping weapon ; so you may hit with more weapons than half the time. I have seen a star of mechs with Clan ER PPCs that did 3 head caps in 3 different turns . ( Not by me ) . 

[SCC]

Does Skunkworks or heavy metal do patchwork armor yet? You are quite right about the odds but my luck has almost always been really bad so by doubling the odds is more representaive of what happens  as the odds represents hits as opposed to how much you shoot and how accurate you are . You might more than half the time but most mechs only have 1 head capping weapon ; so you may hit with more weapons than half the time. I have seen a star of mechs with Clan ER PPCs that did 3 head caps in 3 different turns . ( Not by me ) .

SSW yes, heavy metal unknown but I believe that the rule is quite possibly an old one so it's possible, just don't expect HM to have the latest armors, like Hardened and FL

[Arkansas Warrior]

HM can, yes, and does have hardened armor.

[Col Toda]

Hardened Armor eats NO Crit slots they are whole designs ( Mostly Assaults ) that just do not have enough free crits to use
FL . Hardened uses up NO crits slots ; it may be that Assaults using hardened is the clear win ; lights using FL is the clear win ; and they is just no clear choice for med and heavy.

[Wildonion]

Given that assaults, due to their high armor and low speed, are the most likely to draw fire from the enemy, it seems like you either need high skill pilots (to keep from falling over all the damn time) or long-range support designs, which get shot less and, thus, less use out if hardened armor. Most of the time, I hear hardened armor being championed for light 'Mechs with high speed. They miss the lost point of run mp less and they can get enough armor to effectively act more like a fast medium.

[Col Toda]

An Example of my Point . Urban Awesome ; 320XL engine 20 Double heat sinks ; 4 Snub- Nose PPCs ; and Endo-Composite internal structure standard Gyro .  Slap on as Much hardened armor that you  can with the balance of the tonnage.  Make the leg armor somewhat lighter by adopting a take partial cover tactical doctrine .  In a city you rarely have more than 9 hexes along your lines of approach so the Snub-Nose PPC will almost always be in short range and do 10 pt of damage each . I think one of these will be great militia mech and an ugly suprise when you go around a corner in a city .

[Wildonion]

An excellent design, but specialized. Take him into more open terrain and he will suffer. Plus, the various flavors of AC 20 are more common in right confines. The sort that capitalize on your piloting penalty. Give him a couple ER PPCs and you can fix that, though you lose some of your raw punch. (Wish I was at my home PC to offer a possible competitor.)