Author Topic: Infantry  (Read 12660 times)

Bad_Syntax

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Re: Infantry
« Reply #30 on: 04 April 2011, 11:23:22 »
Yes, but these tables only take into account individual weapons firing single rounds/bursts at AToW rates of fire (AToW turns); it does not take into account several disciplined soldiers coordinating their fire at a single location and emptying their weapons in a TW turn.

There are 2 ATOW turns per BT turn, so you *could* double all the damage.  However, I would think that half that time soldiers are spent covering others, repositioning.  It isn't like all the soldiers are put on a line like in the civil war and fire.  Weapons jam, clips aren't infinite, and targets have to be acquired.  Perhaps you could double the damage output, but also double the damage taken as no longer are soldiers ducking under cover after every few shots.

And there is nothing anywhere that supports coordination of fire, in fact the whole 2 damage point increments for location blows that right outta the water, as those soldiers, even at 30m, are scattering their fire all over the place.  Not often do infantry stop and take aim when shooting small arms at tanks :)
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: Infantry
« Reply #31 on: 04 April 2011, 11:27:43 »
Oh, here are the stats for battle armor mounted weapons, in the same format, as the statistics *do* vary from the man portable versions:

0.5/0.3 (0/0/0/0) = David Light Gauss Rifle
0.7/0.56 (0/0/0/0) = King David Light Gauss Rifle
0.7/0.42 (0/0/0/0) = MagShot Gauss Rifle
0.6/0.36 (0/0/0/0) = Grand Mauler Gauss Rifle
0.6/0.36 (0/0/0/0) = Tsunami Gauss Rifle
0.6/0.42 (0/0/0/0) = Anti-Personnel (AP) Gauss Rifle
0.8/0.4 (0/0/0/0) = Micro Grenade Launcher
1/0.6 (0/0/0/0) = Grenade Launcher
1/0.6 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Grenade Launcher
0.5/0.3 (0/0/0/0) = Light Machine Gun
0.6/0.42 (0/0/0/0) = Machine Gun
0.6/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Machine Gun
0.8/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = "Bearhunter" Autocannon
1.1/0.66 (0/0/0/0) = Light Mortar
1.2/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Mortar
1/0.6 (0/0/0/0) = Light Recoilless Rifle
1.1/0.66 (0/0/0/0) = Medium Recoilless Rifle
1.2/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Recoilless Rifle
0.7/0 (0/0/0/0) = Flamer
1.3/0.65 (0/0/0/0) = Support PPC
1/0.5 (0/0/0/0) = Plasma Rifle
0.6/0 (0/0/0/0) = "Firedrake" Support Needler
0.8/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = Small Laser
1.2/0.84 (0/0/0/0) = Medium Laser
0.8/0.4 (0/0/0/0) = ER Micro Laser
0.8/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = ER Small Laser
1/0.7 (0/0/0/0) = ER Medium Laser
0.4/0.2 (0/0/0/0) = Micro Pulse Laser
0.5/0.25 (0/0/0/0) = Small Pulse Laser
0.7/0.42 (0/0/0/0) = Medium Pulse Laser
1/0.6 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Small Laser
1.4/0.98 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Medium Laser
1.2/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = SRM
1.2/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = Advanced SRM
1.2/0.72 (0/0/0/0) = Streak SRM
1.1/0.66 (0/0/0/0) = MRM
1/0.6 (0/0/0/0) = LRM
0.8/0.4 (0/0/0/0) = Rocket Launcher


And the mech based weapons, which I don't recommend you use, just to have everything printed:
0.6/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = AP Gauss Rifle
0.5/0.35 (0/0/0/0) = Light Machine Gun
0.6/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = Machine Gun
0.6/0.48 (0/0/0/0) = Heavy Machine Gun
0.6/0.36 (0/0/0/0) = Micro Pulse Laser
0.6/0.42 (0/0/0/0) = Small Pulse Laser
0.6/0.36 (0/0/0/0) = Flamer

These weapons can target 12-24 ATOW hexes in a single turn, as they have lots of ammo/power/etc to fire long bursts.  Though that only represents 3-5% of a BT hex.  They do about 10x the damage in BT as they would do in ATOW (they actually fire once per ATOW turn, or twice per BT turn)

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Fireangel

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Re: Infantry
« Reply #32 on: 04 April 2011, 11:46:05 »
There are 2 ATOW turns per BT turn, so you *could* double all the damage.  However, I would think that half that time soldiers are spent covering others, repositioning.  It isn't like all the soldiers are put on a line like in the civil war and fire.  Weapons jam, clips aren't infinite, and targets have to be acquired.  Perhaps you could double the damage output, but also double the damage taken as no longer are soldiers ducking under cover after every few shots.

And there is nothing anywhere that supports coordination of fire, in fact the whole 2 damage point increments for location blows that right outta the water, as those soldiers, even at 30m, are scattering their fire all over the place.  Not often do infantry stop and take aim when shooting small arms at tanks :)

On the contrary; 2-point damage clusters fit quite well with the concept of coordinated fire from a fire team or a squad, especially factoring in secondary weapons. The clusters may be "scattered all over the place" in the sense that each cluster might go to a different location on the 'mech, but if we see each cluster as the damage from a single fire team or squad (depending on the total raw damage of the platoon), we can certainly see fire coordination. Furthermore, there are not that many locations on a 'mech AND all damage is simultaneous, so rolling "LL, H, RA, RT" could be interpreted as the aim of the entire platoon was at the RT, but that as the 'mech moved, the grouping of the platoon opened up just enough that both the head and RA got hit and the 'mech turned enough that the top of the hip caught some rounds. The "clusters that miss" (i.e. the ones that do no damage) do not necessarily miss, but instead just flattened against the armour, doing no damage.

And just doubling RoF from AToM to TW is not the same; I'm talking about a whole fire team or squad unloading on a single target; emptying their magazines in sustained fire, reloading only after the end of the turn. Anyone who has fired a full-auto weapon can attest to the fact that it takes far less than ten seconds to empty a 40-round magazine; there is no repositioning involved; the unit is under cover, when the opportunity pops the platoon leader gives the signal, squad leaders mark their chosen target areas, everybody pops up and unloads, then pop back down, reposition and reload; there is no intermediate "exposed phase"; it's all part of the standard TW turn.


Fireangel

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Re: Infantry
« Reply #33 on: 04 April 2011, 11:48:47 »
I have learned a long time ago to not mix incompatible systems. Remember the old Battletroops tagline? "Take down a 'mech every time."  ::)

Bad_Syntax

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Re: Infantry
« Reply #34 on: 04 April 2011, 12:24:50 »
The systems aren't incompatible at all though, there are full rules in ATOW for integration into BT.  Even for aiming at the cockpit.

I know you can empty a fully automatic weapon magazine very very quickly, even a 200 round drum (I've done it, often!), but typical rifleman don't use full auto for that primary reason.  Heck, the modern M16/M4 don't even have automatic settings anymore, just 3 round bursts (granted  it still can easily blow through a magazine).  There has never been a historic case of soldiers working this way, and I seriously doubt there ever will.  It just doesn't make sense.  If you fire full auto for 30 seconds of every minute, it won't take you but a minute or two before the weapon explodes in your hand.  This is why modern weapons, though in many cases have rate of fire in the hundreds, sustained is typically far less.  I've made a machine gun barrel start glowing red, and as soon as you fire a round in that situation and it doesn't leave the barrel, you basically get up and run as the weapon is ready to cook off.

In a combat situation it is *very* hard to hear, even with advanced communications.  Guns and explosions are VERY loud, and to try to coordinate massed fire across a squad, much less a platoon, is difficult.  It also means the squad is more vulnerable, after they do that once or twice the mech waits until it takes fire, then opens up knowing that entire squad/platoon is exposed shooting at it.

The weakest point on a mech is the cockpit, at BAR 9, and the only standard rifle that has a chance of hurting it is the Zeus, which if hit would have like a 10% chance of causing a single point of damage.  Based on those odds, I seriously doubt anybody but snipers (much like today) would be taking careful aim.  You have to stay still while exposed to aim, you'll be hard pressed in today's world to find a grunt to stand up to an armored HMMWV with a lowly AK, and in the 31st century the vehicles are FAR better armored, and FAR more deadly. 

Based on the effectiveness of most weapons, and the way damage is resolved, it is pretty safe to assume that all the grunts are simply aiming center mass, with occasional rounds hitting all sorts of other things, just as any other weapons fire out there.  Infantry can't even aim "high" or "low", but if they could they should be able to pick the punch or kick tables.  The key thing here is we have no data anywhere in any source saying that infantry volley burst their fire like you described, but we do have ATOW which explains how the weapons work, how they interact with BAR values, and accuracy.

To put it simply, if we don't use ATOW values, and use the ones in the TM, a single grunt can carry a weapon that does 1+ points of damage to a mech.  Based on the universe, typical infantry vs armor effectiveness, and simple logic, who would want to see that on the battlefield in BT?

On another note, I think the burst fire damage is basically the shots in a burst / 5.  A bearhunter can fire 30 round bursts, this would be 1d6 additional burst fire damage, the battle armor version has 90 shots in a burst for 3d6.  A Firedrake has 10, so its 1d6/3 additional damage, most of the machine guns do d3 or d4, so that seems to work ok.  I'll add that to a new weapon list soon, which will have all the TM stats so people *could* use my list instead of TM, though from what I've seen there isn't a whole lot of interest in these new values :(
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Disclaimer:  Anything I post here, or anywhere else, can freely be used by anybody, anywhere, for any purposes without any compenstation to or recognition of myself.