Author Topic: Battle Value Errata?  (Read 3221 times)

bakija

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Battle Value Errata?
« on: 20 September 2015, 09:18:31 »
Ok, so haven't looked at the Battletech rules in over a year now, and in getting back up to speed, it looks like there was errata to the TechManual BV rules. The TechManual errata section:

http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/TechManual-v3.02-2014-01-09.pdf?bab45d

on page 49 says "Pages 302-314 have been replaced completely" (i.e. the TechManual rules for BV).

Check. So I go look at the specific BV errata section (that presumably completely replaces pages 302-314):

http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TechManual-v3.0-Battle-Value.pdf?bab45d

Which is dated August 2014 (i.e. fairly recently, and certainly issued since the last time I checked the BV rules).

I went through those BV rules, and they seem, well, pretty much completely identical to the original TechManual BV rules. Clearly *something* changed, but I can't figure out what.

Anyone have a good handle on what changed in the BV rules that resulted in this errata being issued?

Xotl

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #1 on: 20 September 2015, 13:33:13 »
Two major things:

All errata to date was incorporated.
It was completely rewritten with the aim of making things clearer, including the errata (i.e., the errata was justn't glued on, but was written into the document itself as part of the larger rewrite process).  Towards this, new examples that actually show you how to apply the rules were used.  Originally, the examples were actually quite bad, in that they didn't illustrate most of the more complicated issues that could arise while calculating BV.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

bakija

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #2 on: 20 September 2015, 16:38:39 »
Ah, ok--I did notice the much more detailed examples (like adding in the "weapons over heat sink capacity" calculations). And it does look like they totally pulled out the "Force Size Multiplier" rules.

Are there any other actual changes to the calculation rules that are notable?

Thanks!

Xotl

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #3 on: 20 September 2015, 19:39:13 »
The only actual rules changes that I can recall were the elimination of the FSM and the adding in of stealth armour when calculating heat efficiency.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

bakija

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #4 on: 20 September 2015, 19:46:15 »
Ok, cool. Thanks!

House Davie Merc

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #5 on: 22 September 2015, 18:33:27 »
Ah, ok--I did notice the much more detailed examples (like adding in the "weapons over heat sink capacity" calculations). And it does look like they totally pulled out the "Force Size Multiplier" rules.

Are there any other actual changes to the calculation rules that are notable?

Thanks!

The only actual rules changes that I can recall were the elimination of the FSM and the adding in of stealth armour when calculating heat efficiency.

I can has combined arms without having to face 0/0 Assault Mechs now ???

Thanks for posting this !

The FSM was horribly broken . Treating an infantry platoon as equal to a mech
for calculating the force size gave combined arms a huge disadvantage .

bakija

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #6 on: 22 September 2015, 20:28:48 »
I can has combined arms without having to face 0/0 Assault Mechs now ???

Thanks for posting this !

The FSM was horribly broken . Treating an infantry platoon as equal to a mech
for calculating the force size gave combined arms a huge disadvantage .

To be fair, the biggest problem with the FSM rule was that there was no indication of what to actually *do* with it; the rules told you how to calculate a bonus/penalty, but nothing at all about what to do with that bonus/penalty. Like, that they *attempted* to come up with a plan to balance out the concrete advantage that comes from having more units (due to the initiative/movement rules) was a noble goal. It just wasn't thought out well enough.

That being said, it is probably for the best that the FSM rules were removed from the BV section. But it seems reasonable (in an abstract sense) that there be *something* that balances out the advantage that comes from having more units than your opponent. I mean, yeah, it seems weird that an infantry platoon counted the same as an assault mech, numerically speaking, but if I have 4 units, and you have 5 units (of which one is a infantry platoon), the infantry platoon acting as an early move initiative sink does provide an advantage. Just probably not one that the FSM rules did a good job of balancing out :-)

Scrollreader

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #7 on: 02 November 2015, 03:34:00 »
I've tried moving Infanty by Points (Inspired by Protos).  It's an imperfect solution, since simultaneous movement is a benefit of its own,  but overall, I like it.  I wouldn't let a Clanner talk you into doing it for ASF or Tanks, though.  So the Savannah Master swarm is still a problem.

jh316

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #8 on: 03 November 2015, 11:35:26 »
Personally, I just use megamek's house rules when I play tabletop. Infantry don't count for initiative, they just automatically go once you've moved half your stuff.  And if you outnumber someone with a tank swarm it front-loads the initiative so that you're moving multiple things for your initiative phases rather than your last ones.

Cannonshop

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Re: Battle Value Errata?
« Reply #9 on: 08 December 2015, 16:00:59 »
Personally, I just use megamek's house rules when I play tabletop. Infantry don't count for initiative, they just automatically go once you've moved half your stuff.  And if you outnumber someone with a tank swarm it front-loads the initiative so that you're moving multiple things for your initiative phases rather than your last ones.

Front-loading initiative in asymmetrical battles was something MY group was doing before Megamek was a gleam in anybody's eye-because initiative sinking was an OBVIOUS problem waaay back.

FSM was trying to address it, without addressing it. (Possibly because it was a popular 'tactic'?)

one other thing we've experimented with tabletop-wise, in addition to front-loading, is applying an initiative PENALTY for larger forces (because that's actually more realistic-larger groups are harder to coordinate than smaller groups) and an offset for having units with command-and-control type systems (C3, C3i, Command Console, etc) on the map.

for those unfamiliar with front-loading initiative...

Player A has 12 units, player B has 10 units.

Player A loses initiative.

PLayer A moves 2 units, player B moves 1, Player A moves two, B moves 1, Player A moves 1, player B moves 1 and so on until B moves his last unit and the firing phase begins.

this is pretty much the inverse of standard initiative rules, where player A ends up with a positional advantage because the bulk of B's units have already moved, and he can still move two more before B moves his last.

where the "Sinking" comes in, is that under the standard rules, it makes the most sense to move your least valuable/useful units FIRST.  in front-loading you still do that, but it doesn't buy you the slack that standard rules gives you when you do that-you run out of 'popcorn' and have to actually commit to a course of action with your high-value assets.

What FSM did, as pointed out, was force combined-arms players to take massive hits to p/g for their units while allowing 'mech-only players to take munchkinism to new heights.

Things like...taking a single optimized customized Clan-experimental-tech assault with a 0/0 gunnery up against a lance of ULTRA green lights, and calling it 'fair' because the FSM-modified BV said so.

(By ultra-green, we're talking 7/8 on 3025 lights and PSRs for running them, vs. a single machine that can one-shot through the torso or strip limbs with his SECONDARY weapons-and a 0/0 gunnery/piloting so that one-shot happens NOW.)

basically, FSM was the Prsno River codified into the game, and would make lone assault 'mech players into Aidan Pryde-but without the risk.

Removal of FSM was a very good thing for the state of the game-with it gone, you can actually set a BV on saturday night for next saturday's match, and NOT be fighting lone-gunman duels all night against identical opponents when it's game-time.  You might actually face something different, or try something different to work around new tactics or tactical approaches.  downside, of course, is the Savannahmaster swarm (the OTHER motive for FSM).

dealing with savannahmaster swarms in a "Match BV" match, goes to terrain selection or objectives for the matches. (or combinations of those).  lots of woods, terrain, buildings and rubble help here-Hovers like the SM don't do well when the terrain isn't flat or doesn't offer lots of flat-smooth running with only a few clumps of cover (aka, savannahswarming works best on open terrain. if you have one of these in your group, make sure you pick maps that grant lots of chances for his hovers to become one with terrain features on a sideslip or skid...or that channel him onto roadways that limit his engagement envelope while not hampering your more varied units.) and, of course, don't forget to bring your LBX's.





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