Fighting at Long Range Successfully?

[mutantmagnet]

I take it for granted that I can get a rough idea of what my opponent can bring but I pretty much never liked the idea of playing with random maps.

That said you can still play the range game without knowing your opponent has but that requires having an optimized comp. You have to go all out on assault mechs or all out on 8/12+masc/superchargers minimum speeds (tsm is bad because you have to hurt your targeting to get the speed boost) and bringing the type of gear I mentioned and hoping you don't get hard countered because of the map.

If you're using Introtech the min speeds can be lower.

[bakija]

That said you can still play the range game without knowing your opponent has but that requires having an optimized comp. You have to go all out on assault mechs or all out on 8/12+masc/superchargers minimum speeds (tsm is bad because you have to hurt your targeting to get the speed boost) and bringing the type of gear I mentioned and hoping you don't get hard countered because of the map.

All of those things are sound--if I decide to try this plan again, I'd probably go with 7/11/7 guys or 5/8/8 with IJJ; depends on which works a little better design wise--7/11/7 is probably a bit easier to fit into a mech, but 5/8/8 is gonna be cheaper, BV wise. And then hope I end up on a better map :-)

[Elbows]

In a simple deathmatch scenario with random maps and unknown opponent you simply should have gone with a more versatile set-up, that's all.  You decided to play strategy without knowing if the strategy was appropriate for the encounter. (not your fault, either).

No big deal.  This is one of the reasons I like to try to put objectives in most of my games...to give all mech types something to do. 

[Spenetrator]

We use the miniature rules of CBT and play on a 7' by 5' table... Long range weapons are great, I use a pair of Longbows C3ed & iNarced up with a Tessen running interference. On an open table, use 'the triangle' if he rushes one unit, the other two can keep his mechs in the sweet spot, if they spread out, your mechs shoot the ones closest to their lance-mates.

In closer terrain: Pray.
Or get a bodyguard AC/20 or two.

[bakija]

In a simple deathmatch scenario with random maps and unknown opponent you simply should have gone with a more versatile set-up, that's all.  You decided to play strategy without knowing if the strategy was appropriate for the encounter. (not your fault, either).

Heh. Like, for the sake of clarity, I'm not confused as to why I lost. I know how and why I lost--my opponent had a force that worked better than mine on the (essentially random) maps we were on. And I was incredibly unlucky with initiative (losing, like, 9 of 10 initiative rolls when it was important). And my opponent's deep supply of precision AC20 ammo totally nullified the jumping defense I was hoping was going to work. Like, there is no mystery there.

That being said, what I was looking for was good ideas for *making* this sort of thing work. And I got some good ones, including:

-Make sure you map is bigger :-)

-If relying on jumping as a defense, make sure you do so and get a positive exchange on modifiers (i.e. if you are going to be jumping all the time for the defense bonus, make sure you are getting a +4 or better defense bonus, so it is an advantageous trade for the +3 to hit you drop on yourself; i.e. always be able to jump 7+ hexes).

-Make sure to have good backup for close range, as you might end up there anyway.

Like, these are all things I know, but it was possible that someone had some solid ideas for staying at long range (and as it turns out, the key to this is a bigger map. Which isn't always feasible. But it is good to know that is really all there is...).

[Lagbreaker]

For whats it worth use mechs similar to the Hussar-500D. Swap the c3i for a TC and u can fight the longer range battle against your opponent on 4 maps. Going to be long and tedious game I guess.
Increasing the map size is the easy way out ;-)

After tagt watch your opponent switch to lightray or wraith type mechs. Gone will be the 5/8 moving AC20 carriers. They simply cant keep pace.

[Hellraiser]

2x55 ton 5/8/5 guys with an ERPPC and LBXAC10 each.
2x40 ton 6/9/6 guys with an ERPPC, ERML (just 'cause there was some leftover space) and a TC.

Seems like a reasonable force for fighting at long range.

I figured "Huh. That is a lot of scary guns. Well, I totally out range him, so I should be ok."

Any clever ideas?

I didn't know what my opponent was going to be using until we set up our forces on the map.

Much like my opponent's force, I didn't know what the terrain was (or how it would impact my force as opposed to my opponent's force) before designing and selecting my force. The maps were essentially random and determined after designing and selecting our forces.

Honestly, the big issue I see that you overlooked is that the map is only 2x2.  34 Hexes Long,  31 Hexes Wide.. IIRC.  So smack dab in the middle is pretty much the Medium/Long bracket split for most long range guns.
Your force looks good, but the maps needed to be 2x3 (turned sideways) or 3x3 normal.  That would give you a 46*34 playing field, allowing you to move w/o being in Medium range ALL THE TIME.
You can't know his forces, or even terrain, but you can know that to play the sniper game you want to stay at LONG, not run the risk of being at Medium for several turns.
Also, your force was a tad slow to play the snipe & run game.   7/11/7's or 6/9/MASC would have been better, IMHO.

For whats it worth use mechs similar to the Hussar-500D. Swap the c3i for a TC and u can fight the longer range battle against your opponent on 4 maps. Going to be long and tedious game I guess.
Increasing the map size is the easy way out ;-)

After tagt watch your opponent switch to lightray or wraith type mechs. Gone will be the 5/8 moving AC20 carriers. They simply cant keep pace.

I'd disagree.  The Hussar is great but it would die just as fast due to less armor on those smaller maps.
2x2 lacks the room to really move.

[GreekFire]

I feel like too many people are focusing on the 2x2 map. Asking for something larger than that, especially considering the size of most gaming tables, is a bit...unreasonable? Especially since playing a ranged game on a 2x2 map is more than feasible.

Fielding a 5/8/5 or 6/9/6 snipe force is completely doable. And using it to find advantageous brackets at short or medium range is also possible. The thing is, 'Mechs that deal so much damage with such high accuracy like the OP did are...rare. More than rare, even; although there are a handful of canon 'Mechs that use TargComp + Snubbie/Large X-Pulse/Whatever combos, it's not like they're particularly common. Each faction gets two or three at their disposal, which makes your chances of facing one slim at best.

Of course you might bump into more issues when fighting a custom force, but those are the works. You'll *always* find harder counters when facing optimized 'Mechs.

[Sabelkatten]

One thing I just noticed: You balanced your forces by BV on random maps. BV doesn't work with random maps (no point balance system in a game does, really) unless you put together a generalist force (or both sides by accident optimize for the same terrain).

Given that there was one map that (I guess?) pretty much blocked long-range LoS you were probably done for from the start. Ask for a game with 2x2 (relatively) open maps, and then go for fast XL-engine mechs w/o JJs. As an experiment I got one 10/15/10 C3 spotter with 3 ERPPCs and 2 LRM5s moving 8/12 for backup. Not much armor, but should be able to cause some hurt.

[bakija]

One thing I just noticed: You balanced your forces by BV on random maps. BV doesn't work with random maps (no point balance system in a game does, really) unless you put together a generalist force (or both sides by accident optimize for the same terrain).

Well, the trick was that we designed forces blind (6000 BV, 4 mechs, IS, y3070 some odd era technology), and then just set up some mostly random maps. They were 2 basic set maps (in opposite corners), one map that was mostly open, and one map that had some hills and trees. My opponent ended up on the map with the hills and trees, and could get to the center of the map virtually immune to fire. I stayed on the mostly open map and peppered fire as he closed in, but it didn't do enough, and while I tried some running and evading, I ended up cornered. Again, however, I lost initiative, like, 9 rounds out of 10 when it mattered. I suspect if I had won initiative even average, I would have fared better.

Given that there was one map that (I guess?) pretty much blocked long-range LoS you were probably done for from the start.

Well, when it comes down to it, even if all 4 maps are just the generic basic set map (i.e. if we live in a universe where all maps are the generic basic set map), it is still pretty easy to keep enough terrain between you and your opponent that long range fire is mostly impossible if you are interested in closing under cover. Which makes fighting an all long range game very difficult.

[JenniferinaMAD]

Keeping your entire force at long range to the entire force of the enemy is supposed to very difficult. Long range mechs tend to be referred to as fire support mechs. Someone else needs to keep the enemy at bay.

On top of that, you're looking at a game where fast units can close the gap from out of range to short range in as little as two movement phases, while shooting a mech to scrap is designed to take several turns.

Balanced forces with tools for most occasions tend to fare better overall while specialised forces might win big but easily lose big if they run into suboptimal conditions.

That said, high ground is a sniper's best friend. If you're high enough to see over the obstructions, there will be a lot less hiding places for the enemy. It also means you're more likely to be able to claim partial cover than the enemy.

Did you spread your force out? Because if you kept them together, once the beatsticks are in range, they'll be in range of everything. While you might get picked off piecemeal by separating your forces, you will force to them to fight their way to each of your units in turn, making it more likely you'll have one guy live and win.