Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 207036 times)

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #990 on: 14 July 2019, 03:50:03 »
Shuddering at the crews' ear damage.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #991 on: 14 July 2019, 03:54:49 »
I just wondered on the Kearsage could the 8" turret turn independently form the 13" gun?? Have the 13" gun fire at the port  and the 8" fire at the starboard? 
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #992 on: 14 July 2019, 04:56:02 »
I just wondered on the Kearsage could the 8" turret turn independently form the 13" gun?? Have the 13" gun fire at the port  and the 8" fire at the starboard?

Nope, they were fixed, where the 13 inch pointed so too did the 8. the only thing it could do was elevate on its own.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #993 on: 14 July 2019, 15:14:37 »
Those Gunners on top of the Kearsarge has 13 turret must shaken ot when tbe big guns fired. I can't imagine that helps with Aiming. Without reading a dedicated book on the subject, i'd I would think that the Ship's Cafe Mason choose when it's going to be using those Ford 8-inch Guns Over the larger Canon so I don't think they would be using them at the same time.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #994 on: 15 July 2019, 02:37:03 »
Those Gunners on top of the Kearsarge has 13 turret must shaken ot when tbe big guns fired. I can't imagine that helps with Aiming. Without reading a dedicated book on the subject, i'd I would think that the Ship's Cafe Mason choose when it's going to be using those Ford 8-inch Guns Over the larger Canon so I don't think they would be using them at the same time.

You'd think that but nope! Both mountings would be in action at the same time. Because of the performance of propellant and the ranges they would fight at (where something like 4,000 yards is long range, and 2,000 yards was much better) the 8-inch shells had decent armour penetration performance, not that of the the 13-inch rounds but fired far quicker. VS the cost of having a far smaller bursting charge and doing less damage. So the tactics of the time for most pre-dreadnought ships of this era was get close, hammer with secondary battery to start fires and silence the enemies secondary battery whilst landing the odd heavy hit with your main guns.

The USN adopted the 8-inch gun on its pre-dreadnoughts because at the time the gun fired far faster than the big 13-inch rifles and punched harder than 6-inch guns.  But advances in propellant and guns reduced the firing cycle of 12 inch guns considerably (the slow burning 'cocoa powder' propellant HAD to be swabbed from the guns every time you fired), but the USN retained the 8-inch guns, even replacing the standard 6-inch guns of other nations pre-dreadnought secondaries with a 7-inch gun.

So..yeah! In action, both 13 and 8-inch guns would be in action at the same time.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2019, 02:42:40 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #995 on: 15 July 2019, 06:28:47 »
Wow. I can't believe that they're both firing at the same time. I've been on a 3in twin gun mount and that stuff can be really jarring when the guns are firing. I can only imagine what it's like being on there with a 13in cannon firing below me and the 8-inch gun firing with me.

EDIT: Gaud! My phone is killing me with stupid autocorrections!
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #996 on: 15 July 2019, 07:39:40 »
The line from Footfall is applicable.  "God was knocking, and he wanted in bad."
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #997 on: 15 July 2019, 09:00:03 »
Well, i tried find pictures (if they exist) of the Kearsarge firing her guns.  No luck there.

However, i found a rare picture of First LT onboard the CSS Alabama, which pretty darn old picture. 



The picture was archived in collection in England.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #998 on: 15 July 2019, 09:42:37 »
You'd think that but nope! Both mountings would be in action at the same time. Because of the performance of propellant and the ranges they would fight at (where something like 4,000 yards is long range, and 2,000 yards was much better) the 8-inch shells had decent armour penetration performance, not that of the the 13-inch rounds but fired far quicker. VS the cost of having a far smaller bursting charge and doing less damage. So the tactics of the time for most pre-dreadnought ships of this era was get close, hammer with secondary battery to start fires and silence the enemies secondary battery whilst landing the odd heavy hit with your main guns.

The USN adopted the 8-inch gun on its pre-dreadnoughts because at the time the gun fired far faster than the big 13-inch rifles and punched harder than 6-inch guns.  But advances in propellant and guns reduced the firing cycle of 12 inch guns considerably (the slow burning 'cocoa powder' propellant HAD to be swabbed from the guns every time you fired), but the USN retained the 8-inch guns, even replacing the standard 6-inch guns of other nations pre-dreadnought secondaries with a 7-inch gun.

So..yeah! In action, both 13 and 8-inch guns would be in action at the same time.

A very good analysis! As stated here, pre-dreadnoughts mounted a few heavy guns for hammerblows on armored targets (their opposite number in the enemy formation, most likely), but because it took so long to reload them they would use mid-sized guns to keep pressure on, and small-caliber weapons to deal with motor torpedo boats and the like. The rise of the dreadnought came due to the rate of fire of larger guns increasing to a level in which they were firing roughly three times in two minutes- a rate of fire that really wasn't all that far behind the mid-caliber guns. So, as three nations all discovered at the same time (independently of each other!), it really made more sense to just built an all-big gun ship. Japan's first one ended up being re-armed with  mid-size guns after all due to a big-gun shortage, but the British and Americans moved ahead with theirs- Dreadnought technically started after the American South Carolina, but finished sooner. Both were intriguing in their own way- Dreadnought was realistically the superior ship thanks to her turbine engines (arguably a greater technological leap than the big-gun battery!), but South Carolina featured superfiring gun mounts, which made for a much more compact and better-planned layout for the armor. The steps forward made by both classes can be seen on almost every battleship class that followed around the world for the remainder of the battleship era.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #999 on: 15 July 2019, 10:08:34 »
Well, i tried find pictures (if they exist) of the Kearsarge firing her guns.  No luck there.

However, i found a rare picture of First LT onboard the CSS Alabama, which pretty darn old picture. 



The picture was archived in collection in England.

Oh, that picture is a fake!  Someone inserted Ser Davos the Onion Knight just like they do a Marauder in the October Revolution!
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1000 on: 15 July 2019, 11:09:31 »
Wow. I can't believe that they're both firing at the same time. I've been on a 3in twin gun mount and that stuff can be really jarring when the guns are firing. I can only imagine what it's like being on there with a 13in cannon firing below me and the 8-inch gun firing with me.

EDIT: Gaud! My phone is killing me with stupid autocorrections!

Yep!  And don't forget that the propellant for these old guns wasn't too far descended from that used in 1812 or 1806 at Trafalgar and produced huge amounts of smoke.



Thats the layout of the Kearsarge's turret, the later Virginia's with their similar turrets



had a similar layout, and ALL the shells and propellant had to come up two shell hoists making the opening to the magazine and hoist below absolutely massive. People laugh at the RN for its turret issues in the 20s and 30s but they'd be screaming in terror at the layout and issues these designs had :p
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Luciora

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1001 on: 15 July 2019, 11:34:48 »
Man, all it needs is an AP mounting on top and you'd have a Matroyska gun mounting!

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1002 on: 15 July 2019, 11:49:36 »
Also note for the Kearsage, the 8-inch gun is pretty much directly over the sighting hood of the 13-inch guns beneath it. 

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1003 on: 15 July 2019, 11:58:43 »
The Virginias also make it easier to see how the turret is set up- rather than rotating separately from the main guns, that mid-size mount actually shares the backplate of the main turret- they're fixed together by sharing the same armor plate there.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1004 on: 15 July 2019, 12:38:22 »
Aye :) Same with the Kear's, their upper 8-inch mount didn't rotate either, but that was the turret design they had at the time, same as on the Olympia IIRC, they just bolted it on top of the 13-inch mount. And as you point out the Virginia's had a single huge turret back that went up to the back of the 8-inch mount. Although I have no idea where the sighting hoods for the 12-inchers on the Virginia are.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1005 on: 15 July 2019, 12:43:24 »
A very good analysis! As stated here, pre-dreadnoughts mounted a few heavy guns for hammerblows on armored targets (their opposite number in the enemy formation, most likely), but because it took so long to reload them they would use mid-sized guns to keep pressure on, and small-caliber weapons to deal with motor torpedo boats and the like. The rise of the dreadnought came due to the rate of fire of larger guns increasing to a level in which they were firing roughly three times in two minutes- a rate of fire that really wasn't all that far behind the mid-caliber guns. So, as three nations all discovered at the same time (independently of each other!), it really made more sense to just built an all-big gun ship. Japan's first one ended up being re-armed with  mid-size guns after all due to a big-gun shortage, but the British and Americans moved ahead with theirs- Dreadnought technically started after the American South Carolina, but finished sooner. Both were intriguing in their own way- Dreadnought was realistically the superior ship thanks to her turbine engines (arguably a greater technological leap than the big-gun battery!), but South Carolina featured superfiring gun mounts, which made for a much more compact and better-planned layout for the armor. The steps forward made by both classes can be seen on almost every battleship class that followed around the world for the remainder of the battleship era.

The other driver for the all-big-gun approach was sighting. In the pre-Dreadnought era, most shots were at almost Napoleonic ranges, firing direct. Indirect fire needed spotting the fall of the shells; when you had the 12", 9", 6" and 3" all banging away, figuring out which gun was firing long and which was firing short was ... difficult. IIRC, some experimented with adding coloured dyes to the explosives, but that didn't really work.

As sighting equipment let engagements start at 10,000 yards plus, it made better sense to just use guns of all one calibre, firing in directed salvos.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1006 on: 15 July 2019, 12:55:49 »

The USN adopted the 8-inch gun on its pre-dreadnoughts because at the time the gun fired far faster than the big 13-inch rifles and punched harder than 6-inch guns.  But advances in propellant and guns reduced the firing cycle of 12 inch guns considerably (the slow burning 'cocoa powder' propellant HAD to be swabbed from the guns every time you fired), but the USN retained the 8-inch guns, even replacing the standard 6-inch guns of other nations pre-dreadnought secondaries with a 7-inch gun.


I had always wondered why the big guns on the late 1800s battleships took several minutes between shots.  That makes sense if they were being swabbed after every round.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1007 on: 15 July 2019, 14:14:38 »
Quote
I had always wondered why the big guns on the late 1800s battleships took several minutes between shots.  That makes sense if they were being swabbed after every round.

Yep! That changed with new propellants, by the very early 1900's the UK was using cordite, the French were using this stuff called Ballistite (which had nitro in it) and so on. These didn't leave un-burnt powder residue or bits of smouldering propellant in the barrels (most of the time) and thus eliminated the need for swabbing. Another big thing that sped up firing was all round loading. On say the RN's Royal Soverign class battleships, when they fired their main 13.5-inch guns, the guns then had to be trained fore or aft and raised to a certain angle to take in the shell and propellant before being swung back round to point at their target. The Italians and then the French were early adopters of all round loading where you could load the gun what ever way it was pointing, thus ramping up the rate of fire. The Brits started experimenting with all round loading in the last of the Majestic class and fully adopted it from thereon.

Quote
As sighting equipment let engagements start at 10,000 yards plus, it made better sense to just use guns of all one calibre, firing in directed salvos.

Very true, in the Russo Japanese War the two sides opened fire at what were HUGE ranges for the time, with the opening shots at Tishuma and Yellow Sea being around 12k yards. Most navies didn't train to fight at that range. In the early 1900's the French were working on it though, they went fire control mad and started training their crews to engage at 6,000 yards, whereas the standard 'long' range for the RN was 4,000 yards.

The French did this mostly because they were at the short end of the numbers game and the industrial stick when it came to their main rival, the RN at that time. So they wanted to hit first and get early and perhaps vital hits in at ranges the RN wasn't trained to fight at. But this lead to the Marine National adopting a wide range of range finders and having them on all their ships. To the point that each individual turret or gun battery, would have its own range finding kit, instead of a centralised position directing all the guns. This for example lead to the battleship Carnot having 16, yes, 16 different gunnery direction positions and bits of equipment. Some in the turrets, others in gun batteries, some on the bridge etc etc. So they were on the right track, just going in the wrong direction because they were holding the map upside down.




The French ships of the era were also powerfully ugly.


« Last Edit: 15 July 2019, 14:21:04 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1008 on: 15 July 2019, 14:23:03 »
I don't know, I quite like the look of tumbledown. Just not the sea-keeping properties.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1009 on: 15 July 2019, 14:28:49 »
I don't know, I quite like the look of tumbledown. Just not the sea-keeping properties.

Its cool in that steampunky kind of way buuut...

Meet the Messana





and her predecessor, the Hoche. Note how the bow is digging in and how smooth it is.



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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1010 on: 15 July 2019, 14:31:54 »
you have to give it to the French. They literally like making their warships back in the day unique and original.  Semi-mersible too.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1011 on: 15 July 2019, 14:32:58 »
you have to give it to the French. They literally like making their warships back in the day unique and original.  Semi-mersible too.

The French ships certinally were...unique. Even for that period!
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1012 on: 15 July 2019, 14:40:52 »
The French ships certinally were...unique. Even for that period!
Well, at least their current aircraft carrier doesn't have TWO islands to confuse people which structure is the bridge and which one is the pilot's lounge.   ;D


JS Charles de Gaulle

It's too bad they keep dragging their feet about building their second carrier.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1013 on: 15 July 2019, 14:41:52 »
Money and politics at the end of the day keep delaying the Sister to the CDG. But she's a handsome lass for sure :)
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1014 on: 15 July 2019, 14:48:10 »
Well, the 2nd carrier WOULD HAVE BEEN near sister ship to the QE-Class, but they bailed out of it.  I think by the time they get around building it, it will end up replacing Charles de Gaulle.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1015 on: 15 July 2019, 14:48:33 »
Bit of a nitpick: Ships of the Marine Nationale do not use the prefix JS. Neither do ships of the JMSDF, actually. Neither navy uses any prefix at all. :)
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1016 on: 15 July 2019, 14:51:18 »
To be fair, not building a twin to de Gaulle isn't a bad idea. She's had a lot of problems with her engines, so rather than spending a ton of money to have TWO broken flat-tops, leaving it at one and making sure to get it right next time makes more sense.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1017 on: 15 July 2019, 16:33:21 »
So, a totally serious and not at all humorous question.  ;)

One of my recent denizens of the deep periphery worlds was based loosely on imperial Russian culture, and I noted in the description that they built small battleships for their oversized sea going navies.

I decided I wanted to get a properly scaled model kit to represent it on table top, and I wanted it to be a pre-dreadnought to go with the whole Imperial Russian feel.

The one ended up finding on Amazon and buying was a 1/700 scale model of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mikasa

What do you think? Too culturally insensitive?  ;D
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1018 on: 15 July 2019, 16:39:36 »
Just say it's the future of the 80s - the 1880s. :)
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #1019 on: 15 July 2019, 17:45:20 »
I actually have a half-finished model of a WoB blue-water warship for a long-deceased campaign (the one used to test the webbed campaign from CamOps actually)... a bone-white Tenryu-class light cruiser (Tatsuta, to be specific). The weapons were going to be swappable for a pair of AA turrets from Partisan AA vehicles from MWDA, while a pair of MWDA missile turrets would give the ship its big artillery weapons. Another pair of gun mounts (I don't think I made a final decision on them) would have replaced the torpedo mounts as well.
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