Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt  (Read 44723 times)

Empyrus

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #120 on: 30 August 2021, 05:44:49 »
And pretty sure canon designs are not required to conform to WYSIWYG either. The show-case units in RG series are WYSIWYG but they do occasionally have new variants that aren't.

The Eagle

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #121 on: 30 August 2021, 14:37:50 »
New player recognition of the Mech's mini, while consulting a record sheet mid-game, is probably aided by being WYSIWYG.  Those of us who have been at this a while sometimes take for granted our encyclopedic ability to recognize most units on sight.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #122 on: 01 September 2021, 05:06:08 »
The mechs that are getting WYSIWYG are either one off units from the Kickstarter like the Thug, or various variants of the Unseen/Ommi configurations.  It's both a design challenge, ease of recognition/effective variant builds for new and old players who want to throw down in the IlClan or Dark Age eras  without purchasing a ton of minis, and consolidating the product line.  I'm sure we'll see the same happen to other era units if the Recguides and kickstarters continue to be profitable.  As for the T-bolt, it still continues to be the yardstick for heavy trooper mechs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #123 on: 01 September 2021, 18:54:20 »
With all the weapon port/barrels on a T-Bolt, I feel like it might be an interesting challenge to see what you can do to make them all usable.
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Colt Ward

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #124 on: 01 September 2021, 22:11:48 »
It does have a lot . . . lol start a design thread and let's see the craziest stuff.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #125 on: 01 September 2021, 23:12:52 »
That thread is here

SCC

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #126 on: 21 September 2021, 04:08:32 »
Personally I kind of like bringing WYSIWYG in, while it doesn't actually address any of BT's problems with the firehose of designs, it is something of an improvement in that area.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #127 on: 22 September 2021, 04:30:24 »
All I see WYSIWIG doing is preventing people from playing with new units that either lack a mini, have no affordable mini, or no assembly-possible mini. Not my cup of tea at all. Yes, I've seen proxy abuse, but the same people doing that would cheat other ways.
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Empyrus

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #128 on: 22 September 2021, 05:35:12 »
There's no WYSIWYG rule in BT, all that's WYSIWYG is that the newest featured variants in Recognition Guide series are made to match minis.

Daryk

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #129 on: 22 September 2021, 16:18:32 »
Proxy abuse is solvable by requiring a written note on the sheet as to which mini it matches.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #130 on: 22 September 2021, 18:08:56 »
The game has always been proxy friendly, most variants are not wysiwyg so I have no idea why so many are making a bid deal out of it.

I'm a fan of the Steiner series of Thuds regardless. 
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Neo-Tanuki

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #131 on: 20 October 2022, 18:19:43 »
I'd like to ask T-bolt players in this thread for advice: How do I use the 7S and 11S more effectively? I'm having a terrible time figuring out how to use them in MegaMek correctly.

I love many previous Tbolts. The old 5S has always been steady and reliable in introtech games for me-it takes a pounding and survives.

The 7M and 9S have been similarly effective for me in Clan Invasion games- their double heat sinks and weapons loadout allowed me to cause even more damage than a 5S, and they seem similarly sturdy.

But when I play the 7S and 11S in Dark Age games...they just seem to die. Their weapons seem to generate more heat, so I can't fire as many guns as on the 7M or 9S. The guns I can fire just don't seem to match the damage of other Dark Age upgrades of classic Mechs. The big draw seems to be the Heavy Duty gyro, and in MegaMek games it seems useless...I just keep taking PSRs, falling down and getting kicked to death.

I've tried staying away, charging in close to punch, running...nothing seems to work, either solo or in a lance. I don't think I've had a 7S survive a single battle or even score a kill.

Any suggestions how to use these Mechs more effectively? I really want to use them for a Tamar Rising campaign, but so far they've been seriously worse for me than older Tbolts. I don't know what I'm doing wrong with them. 😰

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #132 on: 20 October 2022, 19:03:45 »
I don't think it sounds like you're doing anything particularly wrong with them, they're both just awkward modernizations of old variants of the mech and they're just not machines that are ever going to perform particularly well by themselves.  The T-Bolt is a generalist in most of its configurations, and that means that it works better assisting other mechs than on its own.
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Neo-Tanuki

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #133 on: 20 October 2022, 19:18:08 »
I don't think it sounds like you're doing anything particularly wrong with them, they're both just awkward modernizations of old variants of the mech and they're just not machines that are ever going to perform particularly well by themselves.  The T-Bolt is a generalist in most of its configurations, and that means that it works better assisting other mechs than on its own.

I absolutely agree with your assessment above...I just truly don't understand from my games what benefit if any the 7S and 11S upgrade brings. Scotty praised them highly in his RecGuide reviews for their durability, so I was looking forward to trying them out in a MegaMek lance vs. lance scenario...but they seem to always die faster doing less damage for me than older model Thuds. I truly can't understand it.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #134 on: 20 October 2022, 20:59:06 »
How differently do you play them?  If you push them forward and take risks thinking their 'durability' will save them compared to older ones . . . eh, probably not.  The durability improvement is incremental rather than a order of magnitude.  The -7S comment is puzzling since really the only change is the HD gyro, MGs are swapped for XSPL which cuts down ammo probs, and the missile ammo has CASE II.  It is not a radical departure from what came before and a logical progression from the 5S since the weapons and armor are almost exactly the same- 1 less DHS and switching to endo is where you get the weight to make the changes.

The -11S . . . yeah, too many MGs but the AMS can help protect the mech.  It loses 2 points of armor for FF.  What I think is really missing is the LRM rack for the ranged punch but they had to free up some weight somewhere get 2 extra MGs, the AMS & ammo, and CASE on both side torsos.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #135 on: 20 October 2022, 21:06:14 »
Having CASE on both torsos and having a full ton of MG ammo is appalling on the 11S.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #136 on: 20 October 2022, 22:41:07 »
Yeah, not sure why they went with 4X machine guns on the 11S. So many S model Thuds drop the mg's all together, someone must have really had a bad day with PBIs for this to be ideal.

The 7S runs hotter but also allot more range. If it wasn't trying to match the 5S, dumping the SRM2 for something else would have been the way to go. That said, load it with infernos as intended but with luck, range shouldn't make them needed.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #137 on: 20 October 2022, 22:52:22 »
If you really want to spend three tons of your mech's warload on deleting infantry, there are significantly better options than 4 MGs and a full ton of ammo.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #138 on: 20 October 2022, 22:59:51 »
Again, no a fan of the idea myself. Someone took the MG free concept of the TDR-5SS and added quad MGs to it, that definitely gets a WUT!? reaction from me, just trying to logic the decision.
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Neo-Tanuki

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #139 on: 20 October 2022, 23:34:51 »
It is not a radical departure from what came before and a logical progression from the 5S since the weapons and armor are almost exactly the same- 1 less DHS and switching to endo is where you get the weight to make the changes.

This may sound weird, but I think the -1 heat sink and the switch to ER medium lasers is what's messing me up. Playing previous Tbolts, I could stay at standoff for a while firing the Large laser and LRM 15, then switching to the medium lasers+a few small weapons if a foe gets in close range. Although one had to be careful with the 5S, this worked extremely well for me with the 7M and the 9S-they both seemed to have a lot of punch during a battle at all ranges, because it was easy to fire all 3 regular medium lasers along with other weapons.

With the 7S, that seems gone. The ER mediums eat up so much heat that any firing combos that worked in the past put me into heat penalties before I can do any damage. Or I try to mange heat carefully and just get out-shot and slaughtered. On average, I'm only hitting with maybe 1 to 2 weapons, for around 13 damage tops. Other mechs from the same time period (like the Wolverine 9M) can hit back for twice that amount of damage (Wolvie 9M with Heavy PPC plus Streak SRM 6) much more easily. And the extra 3 hexes of range for ER Mediums is offset by the fact I can usually only fire 1-2 tops if I want to fire other weapons.

That seems where I'm getting hosed...I can't keep up with the damage race. If I push the heat curve with the 7S, I get into movement and firing penalties much faster than other mechs or older Tbolts. If I try to keep cool, I'm not doing nearly enough damage to make any major impact on a game, even with support from lancemates. And the 7S just doesn't seem to improve durability enough to make it a good tradeoff. On paper, the 7S seems like it should do at least no worse than other Tbolts, but in every game I've played, it's performed significantly less efficiently. I had much better results swapping in an older 7M.

(Note: I have no objections to playing older or non-MUL listed Thuds in a Dark Age game, but I do like trying out mechs from the MUL, and the Tamar Pact and Hesperus Guards both seem to favor 7S and 11s. I wish they used the jumping 8M, which I REALLY like, or the C 2, which is a beast! Of course, I know I don't have to strictly follow the MUL for games, but I guess what I'm saying is I really WANT to like and use the 7S or 11S effectively, and I don't seem to be able to figure out a way to do so.)
« Last Edit: 20 October 2022, 23:51:08 by Neo-Tanuki »

Colt Ward

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #140 on: 21 October 2022, 02:51:45 »
Are you firing all 3 ERMLs?  Nothing forces you to follow that pattern . . . basically you are trading firing all 3 for range because of the heat.  IMO those torso lasers are there for when things have gotten to closer range and you have lost the ERLL in the arm.  Before you had to close to 9 hexes which causes a LRM problem, now you just get to 12.
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Greatclub

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #141 on: 21 October 2022, 05:39:13 »
The extra range of the ER medium can be nice, but there are times the greater heat efficiency of the standard Medium does more with less. Blowing 6 more of the heat budget for no more potential damage doesn't always feel great.

It doesn't help that a couple models reduce heat sinks.

Colt Ward

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #142 on: 21 October 2022, 09:18:50 »
Which that model does, 14 DHS instead of 15 . . . so heat budget of 28, ERLL is 12 . . . heck the 3 ERMLs are 15, which means you have a 'energy' bracket as a option.  So firing options are . . . ERLL & LRM15, ERLL & 3 ERML, and for a bit of overheat ERLL/LRM15/2 ERML.
Colt Ward
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Neo-Tanuki

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #143 on: 21 October 2022, 20:52:31 »
I tried Colt Ward's firing pattern suggestions for the TDR-7S on 3 games of MegaMek today against the AI. Two games were 1 vs 1, the third was lance-vs-lance (I used the minis from the GOAC box set, upgrading them to DA variants). I also tried to stay at around 5-6 hexes away instead of closing with my opponent, and used max movement as much as possible instead of staying still or walking to try and get better shots.

The results were MUCH better this time. I won all 3 games vs. the computer, and the 7S scored significantly more hits and made a definite positive contribution in the lance vs. lance fight.

Thank you folks for posting your suggestions here...I feel a lot better about using the 7S tonight than I did when I tried it out earlier. I appreciate the suggestions on heat management and firing patterns.

Colt Ward

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Re: 'Mech of the Week: TDR-* Thunderbolt
« Reply #144 on: 22 October 2022, 06:26:14 »
Glad you are more satisfied with the TBolt . . . as a Supernova player, I recognize some weapons are 'spares' or 'OSMID- Oh S Make It Die' depending on the situation.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."