BattleTech Novels--Fun or Dumb?

[Frabby]

Stackpole and Weisman first developed the idea of the Clans out of idle talk about whether or not Natasha Kerensky was a descendant of General Kerensky.
A few pertinent postings to the inception of the Clans in other threads:
Re: Wolves on the Border
How did the Clan Invasion start in the books

[rebs]

I remember wishing I had somehow read Wolves on the Border prior to having read the Legend of the Jade Phoenix and Blood of Kerensky, but I had to start somewhere.  And Way of the Clans, Bloodname and Falcon Guard were all great intros to the world of BT novels.

[Rabid Foxes]

What's odd is for me, Ideal War is probably the one of the more philosophical/literature-y of the novels but it didn't feel like it was "in-universe" to me not sure why, maybe it's presentation was just not how I visualized the universe.

[A. Lurker]

What's odd is for me, Ideal War is probably the one of the more philosophical/literature-y of the novels but it didn't feel like it was "in-universe" to me not sure why, maybe it's presentation was just not how I visualized the universe.

It depicts a different kind of war, and as disturbingly plausible as it is in its own right it's probably not one many BT fans actually want to read about. We kind of like our sanitized military-only clashes in which any civilians who might be logically expected to be on a battlefield (especially an urban one) conveniently fade into the background to the point of nonexistence during the battle only to come back out and resume their lives as though basically nothing bad had happened afterwards. (Trauma? What's that?) But that's not the kind of war Ideal War shows going on on Gibson, and that I believe is one of the book's major letdowns to a fair-sized portion of its audience. It takes Thomas Marik coming in with the Knights of the Inner Sphere to restore things to their "natural" fictional order with an honest 'Mech-vs-'Mech fight between mostly-honorable opponents in the end, and by that point I'd expect the book has sufficiently soured quite few readers on the story it's trying to tell that it's just not enough to redeem it in their eyes anymore.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I believe my reaction to Ideal War was "if I wanted more 'Nam allegories, I'd just read another Hammer's Slammers novel."

[Lorcan Nagle]

Ideal War's problem wasn't that it was a 'Nam allegory, but that it was a 'Nam allegory with all the subtlety of relatavistic kill vehicle

[worktroll]

Well put!

[Kidd]

Ideal War's problem wasn't that it was a 'Nam allegory, but that it was a 'Nam allegory with all the subtlety of relatavistic kill vehicle

Heh.

To me Ideal War was Apocalypse Now jointly directed by Uwe Boll, Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron and Michael Bay but reimagined as a Looney Tunes cartoon to the tune of Yakety Sax... as a completely straight-faced 50th anniversary Vietnam War documentary. For the History Channel.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No, if it had sucked that much, the Hawking radiation would have killed any potential readers.

[glitterboy2098]

it's also kinda sad that Ideal war wasn't better received.. it had some of the best inside looks at the Word of blake, their beleifs, their methods.. and their internal strife. it and the book "Double Blind" really deserve to be included as a primer on the Jihad, despite occuring well before that conflict. between the two of them we got to see inside the word of blake and just how dangerous they would become. those two novels also establish some of the big names of the WOB in the Jihad, or at least the WOB's more mainstream half..

[bpardoe870]

Wow - what a harsh thread.  Maybe I should reconsider writing another novel.  I almost led this post with my mom's line:  "This is why we can't have nice things..." 

Look - even as one of the authors, I consider BattleTech novels as "fun" sci fi military.  It's beer and pretzels fiction much of the time.  BattleTech is not a hard core sci-fi universe - but more of space opera (an opera often in Branson MO).  In a universe where we have three story humaniod war machines running at 90kph (camouflaged...which makes no sense), they serve a good and useful purpose.  They advance the storyline in the BattleTech universe.  I never saw them as "must haves" for players.  They were designed to provide fans with stories that, if they wanted, they could duplicate in game play.

There are a lot of game universes out there where I don't enjoy the fiction - i.e. Pathfinder.  That's okay.  I don't need the fiction to enjoy the game.  BattleTech is a lot of the same. 

I resent the earlier comments that a lot of the characters are the same.  As the author of some of those characters, I kind of take offense to that - but then again, everyone is entitled to their opinions.  Don't imply I ripped off Mike's characters - that's not cool or correct. 

And...don't get me started on Star Lord.  Ah, the stories I could tell...


Blaine "Buck" Pardoe 
It is so much fun to be back!

[Lorcan Nagle]

In Ideal War's defense, it's a decent enough concept:  Word of Blake become the scapegoat in an uprising that Atreus knows nothing about:  not bad. their high command having little experience of how to run a war, so they try measuring success like a balance sheet:  no problems there.  A MechWarrior with PTSD:  I like that idea.

The problem all lies in the execution.  Valentine getting out of her mech, pulling out a ledger and tracking kills by body parts is parodic enough, but when you've got the narration comparing the carnage after a mission to an over the top anti-war documentary (and presumably, this is the author trying to make his point), and then Masters' sarcastic confrontation with Valentine?  It's too much.  And then the book descends into a bedroom farce when Masters and Kris are manipulating everyone in the capital.  There's a good book in there, but not the one we got.

[Men Shen]

I've read most but not all of the battletech books. Some of my favorites in no particular order are.
Roar of Honor
Test of Vengeance
The Cappelan solution books
The two Loren Jaffray books( thanks mr. Pardon)
The three christifiori books.
The twilight series
BOK trilogy
The two dragoon books


 
You know what, I think to me battletech novels are like Strike Anywhere songs I've got songs I like a lot and songs I like a little less. I will say that I wasn't a big fan of the proving grounds trilogy.

[False Son]

In Ideal War's defense, it's a decent enough concept:  Word of Blake become the scapegoat in an uprising that Atreus knows nothing about:  not bad. their high command having little experience of how to run a war, so they try measuring success like a balance sheet:  no problems there.  A MechWarrior with PTSD:  I like that idea.

It was Gibson.

The problem all lies in the execution.  Valentine getting out of her mech, pulling out a ledger and tracking kills by body parts is parodic enough, but when you've got the narration comparing the carnage after a mission to an over the top anti-war documentary (and presumably, this is the author trying to make his point), and then Masters' sarcastic confrontation with Valentine?  It's too much.  And then the book descends into a bedroom farce when Masters and Kris are manipulating everyone in the capital.  There's a good book in there, but not the one we got.

It was dropping the conduct of the Vietnam War into Battletech.  It may not fit our preconceived notions of Battletech, but I don't fault anyone for trying something different.

[JadedFalcon]

Never got past the whole Knights of the Inner Sphere part at the beginning of Ideal War. Maybe I should give it another try.

As bad as Star Lord may be, it's a very pulp action-adventure shlocky Sunday afternoon movie kinda science fiction. I've seen worse from Hollywood sci-fi blockbusters. I want to give it credit because I kept reading the book even after realizing that I could not take it seriously.

Battletech still puts out a lot of good fiction. I'm about halfway through 25 Years of Art & Fiction, and I've liked what I've read there. I am curious to see what an increased word count will bring.

[worktroll]

Wow - what a harsh thread.  Maybe I should reconsider writing another novel.  I almost led this post with my mom's line:  "This is why we can't have nice things..." 

Blaine (no, not the famous crypto-zoologist, really!),

I trust there's a certain level of irony in your comments. I'd notice that your books aren't being picked on particularly.

No-one's expecting a Pulitzer Prize to come out of a genre series book. One is - as much with Leviathans as BattleTech, no? - required to buy into the history, content and expectations of the genre. "OPeration Audacity", to pick one, delivers what the majority of BT readers are wanting.

Yes, there's a place for experimental gastronomy. There's also a place for good, clean, well-spiced Mexican quisine. Does NOMA make more revenue than all the good Mexican restaurants out there? I doubt it. Yes, for every Texicali Rose (a great local place), you do have the existance of a Taco Bell outlet ...

The main problems seem to have been where authors have tried to break with genre. Yes, a Mexican restaurant can try the occasional experiment with fusion Indo-Mex cooking. But if I went to the Texicali Rose and found an all-vegan dosa menu, I would not be having my appetite of that moment catered to.

TL,DR: don't worry. You keep doing good stuff, we'll keep buying. O0

W

[roosterboy]

Loren,

That's Blaine.

[rebs]

As bad as Star Lord may be, it's a very pulp action-adventure shlocky Sunday afternoon movie kinda science fiction. I've seen worse from Hollywood sci-fi blockbusters. I want to give it credit because I kept reading the book even after realizing that I could not take it seriously.

It did give me great insight as a fan into Brett Andrews being a brooding schemer who used Clan politics more like a Spheroid than many Spheroid politicians.  I remember reading it and finding that to be an unexpected bonus.

Dawn was entertaining on Solaris.  More Clan insight stuff. 

[Men Shen]

I've said it before and I'll say it again nobody and I mean nobody hates battletch more than battletec fans :) thanks to all writers for what they do.

[JadedFalcon]

It did give me great insight as a fan into Brett Andrews being a brooding schemer who used Clan politics more like a Spheroid than many Spheroid politicians.  I remember reading it and finding that to be an unexpected bonus.

Unintentional foreshadowing, right? I read it after Wars of Reaving, and it was amusing seeing him show up, on his way to greater villainy.

On the original subject of fun or dumb: At times Battletech can be good at being both. It's probably more about expectations. Main plot books may have have higher expectations than something like Star Lord.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I've said it before and I'll say it again nobody and I mean nobody hates battletch more than battletec fans :) thanks to all writers for what they do.

Of course not.  Didn't FASA create them just to give fans something to complain about? ;)

[worktroll]

That's Blaine.

Brain fart  [metalhealth] Still, got the right book. OpAud O0

[False Son]

Never got past the whole Knights of the Inner Sphere part at the beginning of Ideal War. Maybe I should give it another try.

I had the good fortune to read it post-Jihad.  All that goodie two shoes Arthurian trip that Thomas gives Paul ends up being a mile high pile of stinky stuff.  The Knights were Thomas's personal errand boys.

Battletech still puts out a lot of good fiction. I'm about halfway through 25 Years of Art & Fiction, and I've liked what I've read there. I am curious to see what an increased word count will bring.

That's a really good product.  I've read it a few times and I keep going back to it and Masters and Minions.

[Lorcan Nagle]

It was Gibson.

I was talking about the revelation that the Gibson Freedom League had been fighting against the ruling powers on Gibson for years before Word of Blake came along, but countess Dystar and the planetary governor covered it up so Thomas never knew.

[Maelwys]

One big problem with Ideal War is that the WoB in it doesn't make much sense. When I first read it I was like "Okay, that's different. A Vietnam allegory. I can see where they're trying to go."

And then like most BT novels, over the years it got read again once or twice and then I realized that the whole PTSD thing doesn't really make much sense. Okay sure. I can understand some of the WoB soldiers having PTSD. But later on when Arian is talking about the fighting, it just doesn't make sense. The fighting that CS did was on Tukayyid, with the majority of the population evacuated, and cities in some cases designed specifically to fight in.

The systematic PTSD show in Ideal might have worked for a FedCom or FRR or DC unit that had been hit hard, retreated to cities, fought bloody fights, then retreated to another world only to get hit again and go through the same process a couple of times, but not so much for the relatively clean fight that Tukayyid was.

On the other hand, I was really amused when I reread it after the Jihad started and found out that Blane's assistant on Gibson was named "Starling."

[rebs]

Some of the Com Guards may have suffered more than others.  Like anyone whooped by Aidan Pryde's Small Laser of Doom; they would have a legit excuse for feeling out of sorts for quite a while, I would think.   ;)

Not to make light of this subject.  One does not have to be in an actual interstellar war - or any war - to suffer traumatic psychological injury.  Some people will have lower thresholds for trauma.  The fighting on Tukayyid may have been clean by many standards, but those who fought it, those who dread the Clans, they all may have a different point of view than us the reader.

[Maelwys]

Oh, I agree. Some of them easily could've been suffering. The fighting was horrendous for the ComGuards at times. I'm just not seeing the systemic horror that's described as across the entire WoB Militia. Again, if this had been a RCT or something that had been hit multiple times in the Clan Invasion and had done whatever they could to survive, including pulling back into still occupied cities, then yeah. I wouldn't have so much of an issue with it.

But the ComStar fighting was on a single planet with its population out of the way, and while ComGuard forces would retreat into cities, they were empty and were probably prepared exactly for that situation (or in some cases, built especially for that).

It just struck a chord when I read it later on, and really didn't make sense to me.

[Rtifs]

I’ve just started Ideal War.  I’m only a quarter of the way through it, and haven’t gotten to the fighting yet, but I’m not seeing a setup for Vietnam in space.  It seems to be about a lot of sub-factions making power plays while trying to keep the appearance of a nice guy.  Very Machiavellian.  Perfect Battletech. 

Thomas Marik wants to stage a coup and overthrow parliament.  But he needs a military personally loyal to him to pull it off.  So he and his good friend Paul Masters hatch a scheme to use Arthurian mythology to romanticize mech combat and attract warriors.  The WoB is trying to set itself up on Gibson, but the Primus has been keeping his “good friend” Thomas in the dark about the rebellion going on.  So Paul is going to have to deal with the rebellion in a way that keeps the clean-cut image of his “honorable” knights.  Otherwise Thomas won’t be able to attract enough loyal warriors to stage his overthrow.  But the bottom line is that everyone in the story is a fraud – they’re all lying to each other. 

This is one of the reasons the FWL is fast becoming my preferred successor state.  It’s the only one where anything interesting happens. 

[False Son]

On the original subject of fun or dumb: At times Battletech can be good at being both. It's probably more about expectations. Main plot books may have have higher expectations than something like Star Lord.

That is one thing I missed about the MWDA line.  As a series there are fewer deviations and side stories.  Most drive the plot in one corner of the universe or another.  That's good and all.  A hefty 31 novel series offers me plenty of authors, styles and perspectives.  But, i'm not getting Star Lord, Far Country, Stone Ponies or Avanti's Angels.

I tend to not look at individual novels for signs of oddity as a bad thing, but try to understand why a novel like Star Lord, Far Country or even Blood Avatar exist.  These are individual novels part of a large series.  I honestly don't expect, and would sort of hate a series as large as the Roc Battletech novels and MWDA novels to have the same perspectives and authors (sorry to those core writers, too much anything can be bad).  Those lone books that are the exceptions create variety for me, even if i'm not in love with every one of them.  I just cringe at the idea of Battletech novels being stamped out of a mold to meet expectations.  I say try something different every once and a while.  There are dozens of books that conform to our expectations of Battletech.  We can always fall back on those.

I’ve just started Ideal War.  I’m only a quarter of the way through it, and haven’t gotten to the fighting yet, but I’m not seeing a setup for Vietnam in space.  It seems to be about a lot of sub-factions making power plays while trying to keep the appearance of a nice guy.  Very Machiavellian.  Perfect Battletech. 

In an attempt to respect Rule 4, the author has admitted the parallels and used examples of practices conducted by the U.S. military and State Department during the Vietnam War.  Some of them jumped right off the page when I read them.  Just wait until you get there.  Without being specific enough to get in trouble (crossing fingers) the theme of doing a stupid thing, stupidly is going to come up. 

This is one of the reasons the FWL is fast becoming my preferred successor state.  It’s the only one where anything interesting happens. 

The League is awesome and always has been.  It is the only faction where they are honest about how nothing works the way it should.

[Atlas3060]

"This is why we can't have nice things..." 

Ah you've found one of the unofficial Battletech taglines.

"Live is cheap, Battlemechs aren't"
"No guts, No galaxy"
"This is why we can't have nice things..."