Author Topic: 3250 reference in Second Succession War  (Read 6882 times)

Drewbacca

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3250 reference in Second Succession War
« on: 16 May 2018, 10:37:45 »
I was just reading the intro to Second Succession War and there is a blurb that states the text was collected almost a century earlier. The intro itself is dated 3150. Or did I miss read something?

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #1 on: 16 May 2018, 11:05:49 »
As best I recall, that whole thing from 3250 isn't considered canon at the moment.

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Maelwys

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #2 on: 16 May 2018, 11:47:51 »
Why wouldn't it be? Its from a book that just came out last year. Its not from a ISP-like product. Infact, we have two 3250 references, both from last year, in Second Succession War and the Succession Wars TRO.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #3 on: 16 May 2018, 12:23:42 »
Why wouldn't it be?

Because a good chunk of the forum freaked out bad enough that CGL still doesn't want to talk about it.

As for the into, the narration has always followed the current time line. Even updated TROs had a intro by Com Star explaining the update to 3050 report in 3062. The 2nd SW book is current Dark Age personalities look back at the historical events of the Second Succession War.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2018, 12:31:21 »
Because a good chunk of the forum freaked out bad enough that CGL still doesn't want to talk about it.

As for the into, the narration has always followed the current time line. Even updated TROs had a intro by Com Star explaining the update to 3050 report in 3062. The 2nd SW book is current Dark Age personalities look back at the historical events of the Second Succession War.

yes. but also the Loremaster's blurb adjacent to that on page 11 makes it clear that while the analysis was written ca 3150, it's been recovered ca 3250. Like if you found an unpublished manuscript from 1918 and published it as-is with a forward to explain the context.

then there's also this little tidbit from TRO: Succession Wars



will this 3250 timeline ever get anything other than references like this? who knows. but that future is out there.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2018, 12:36:37 by Sartris »

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #5 on: 16 May 2018, 12:43:57 »
At this point, I don't think such lines should be treated as anything more than Easter Eggs.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #6 on: 16 May 2018, 12:54:34 »
just like the first drips out of a leaking dam are probably just condensation

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #7 on: 16 May 2018, 12:55:37 »
It's canon.

yes. but also the Loremaster's blurb adjacent to that on page 11 makes it clear that while the analysis was written ca 3150, it's been recovered ca 3250. Like if you found an unpublished manuscript from 1918 and published it as-is with a forward to explain the context.

Correct. The intent of the blurb is that it's a document first written in the 32nd Century, recovered and "published" in the 33rd century.

Because a good chunk of the forum freaked out bad enough that CGL still doesn't want to talk about it.

These two references were subsequent to that.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #8 on: 16 May 2018, 15:17:54 »
So the future stuff in the Second Succession War easter egg is non-canon?
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2018, 15:23:30 »
Everything in Second Succession War and TRO: Succession Wars is canon.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #10 on: 18 May 2018, 21:24:36 »
So the future stuff in the Second Succession War easter egg is non-canon?

No, it IS canon. Unless specifically stated otherwise anything published by CGL is canon.

So yes, we have snippets from 3250. What they represent is anyone's guess.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #11 on: 18 May 2018, 22:08:00 »
And that's why I called them Easter Eggs.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #12 on: 18 May 2018, 22:35:44 »
"Easter eggs" are generally speaking understood to be fun references or trivia, or something equally simple but generally speaking not relevant. A cameo of a protagonist of another work could be an easter egg, or how BT has a merc unit named after the Lord of the Rings, but a framing device - as small as it is - most certainly isn't an easter egg but rather something more.

The 3250 stuff is evidently canon, even beyond TPTB explicitly saying so. They aren't limited to one book either: TRO Succession Wars framing device is from 3250. And it is both mystifying and revealing.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #13 on: 19 May 2018, 02:12:38 »
I can see why some people would be afraid of yet another time jump but I think a lot of good could come out of it. I think it would be a great way tondo some consolidation of the fluff and the rules. If some cutting back of options was wanted that could be the way to go.

Also, one of the things I always liked about Battletech was the fact there was a huge bit of history that was only lightly touched on. Now that those eras have been fleshed out, which it was great to watch happen, the time jumo could give us another period of mystery and make some of the more advanced weapons something special again.

I think it could also help develope more character in the factions. Making them distinct but more than nations of hats.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #14 on: 19 May 2018, 03:04:35 »
I can see why some people would be afraid of yet another time jump but I think a lot of good could come out of it. I think it would be a great way tondo some consolidation of the fluff and the rules. If some cutting back of options was wanted that could be the way to go.

Also, one of the things I always liked about Battletech was the fact there was a huge bit of history that was only lightly touched on. Now that those eras have been fleshed out, which it was great to watch happen, the time jumo could give us another period of mystery and make some of the more advanced weapons something special again.

I think it could also help develope more character in the factions. Making them distinct but more than nations of hats.

I like the time jumps, we skip all the boring peaceful stuff, and get to the meat of the wars quicker. Imagine if we got a sourcebook The machinations of the Free Worlds League in the Star League's Free Trade era"? That would be boring as hell, especially if there was one for every nation state.

Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #15 on: 19 May 2018, 03:42:43 »
Actually, I would find that extremely interesting.

Nightlord01

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #16 on: 19 May 2018, 04:49:33 »
Actually, I would find that extremely interesting.

What, an economics text book? That was a rephrased title from my economics text book in high school...

I guarantee you that you wouldn't find it interesting, it would likely cure any form of insomnia you suffered. And I say this as someone with an interest in economics.

Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #17 on: 19 May 2018, 04:52:21 »
I have read some of the driest history texts ever written. I have an amazing tolerence for tedium in reading. Quick CGL, give me an analysis of Steiner-Marik trade aggreements and thier effects on insteller commodities markets in the pre-Stsr League era!

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #18 on: 19 May 2018, 07:32:41 »
Even in the most peaceful eras of the Star League there was raiding.  It was just being done by “pirates”.  Given the relative force sizes in the era, some of those incidents were probably the size of the brushfire wars we have sourcebooks on.  I’d totally buy a book on Star League era “pirate” raiding.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #19 on: 19 May 2018, 09:07:29 »
I have read some of the driest history texts ever written. I have an amazing tolerence for tedium in reading. Quick CGL, give me an analysis of Steiner-Marik trade aggreements and thier effects on insteller commodities markets in the pre-Stsr League era!

You need a shrink...

Even in the most peaceful eras of the Star League there was raiding.  It was just being done by “pirates”.  Given the relative force sizes in the era, some of those incidents were probably the size of the brushfire wars we have sourcebooks on.  I’d totally buy a book on Star League era “pirate” raiding.

Sure, if you go over the entire era, you might find enough for a book, but in reality it will all become swiftly more of the same. There were actually brush fire conflicts all over the place during the Cold War, few rated a mention unless one of the primary antagonists was involved somehow. Ultimately, Battletech is like that, you get the more interesting material, and skip the less interesting material, at least until the procrastination hits maximum, then you get historicals about it.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #20 on: 19 May 2018, 09:34:42 »
You need a shrink...

Someone called? 

I don't do remote consults.  However I can say that Drewbacca's interest in the economic and trade situation along the Steiner-Marik border is a valid albeit niche interest.  So long as such interests do not cause distress or dysfunction, then he is sane...probably.  I myself have interest in the internal economic organizations of the Successor States, which is why I found the House Handbooks interesting.  Sadly the House Liao one seemed to go into the least detail about that aspect for that House.  The economic dislocations (and any political ramifications) post-downing of the HPG network is also of interest to me.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #21 on: 19 May 2018, 09:42:02 »
the catgirl apocalypse that would be ushered in by the foolish fool foolish enough to attempt to unpack the workings of inner sphere economics without completely breaking the universe (aka the world's most boring game of Operation) would go down as one of history's greatest atrocities.

i have an intense professional interest in cross-border societal transformations via material culture and exchange, but not in BattleTech.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #22 on: 19 May 2018, 10:29:34 »
There were actually brush fire conflicts all over the place during the Cold War, few rated a mention unless one of the primary antagonists was involved somehow.

Which is the tricky part in developing "Brush Wars"-level material for BT. Some eras had a few legitimately interesting, extended campaigns, like the ones we detailed in the original "Brush Wars" and "Wars of the Republic Era." But basically every era also has an overarching caveat of "...but there was also consistent, low-level raiding"--which isn't intended as unpaved road for a future sourcebook, but as basis for players' Saturday afternoon game if they're interested in attaching it to canon.

So where do you draw the line between "significant enough for sourcebook treatment" and "it's just there to give players a hook for their game." It's not an easy question, especially since many (but not all, I know) of the historical gaps have already been caulked in.

But we're getting off topic. Those 3250 mentions in recent sourcebooks are canon, and are meant as unpaved road for possible future development.
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Iracundus

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #23 on: 19 May 2018, 10:57:56 »
the catgirl apocalypse that would be ushered in by the foolish fool foolish enough to attempt to unpack the workings of inner sphere economics without completely breaking the universe (aka the world's most boring game of Operation) would go down as one of history's greatest atrocities.

i have an intense professional interest in cross-border societal transformations via material culture and exchange, but not in BattleTech.

I did an analysis of the economic viability of shipping rice from Kaifeng to Sarna:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=vpobojutv59frregd2sp0h9r54&topic=54402.0

AFAIK the catgirl apocalypse has not happened.  Clearly more can be done before we cross that line.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #24 on: 19 May 2018, 21:43:51 »
Someone called? 

I don't do remote consults.  However I can say that Drewbacca's interest in the economic and trade situation along the Steiner-Marik border is a valid albeit niche interest.  So long as such interests do not cause distress or dysfunction, then he is sane...probably.  I myself have interest in the internal economic organizations of the Successor States, which is why I found the House Handbooks interesting.  Sadly the House Liao one seemed to go into the least detail about that aspect for that House.  The economic dislocations (and any political ramifications) post-downing of the HPG network is also of interest to me.

I have an unhealthy interest in Btech verse military procurement, including the rationale for what we see and what gains could be made (and at what cost!) by changing how star nations in Btech make those decisions.  I struggle with the need to create BTech AUs and other star nations in an attempt to work through alternate doctrines, military organizations, and purchasing/training decisions. 

I may have a problem.

Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #25 on: 20 May 2018, 02:19:39 »
Sir, that was a thing of beauty.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #26 on: 20 May 2018, 03:21:48 »
I think you two should get together...and write a House Handbook. 

Or maybe a PhD thesis on Steiner-Marik economic relations and its effects on the military procurement and logistics systems of both nations.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #27 on: 20 May 2018, 03:43:12 »
I think you two should get together...and write a House Handbook. 

Or maybe a PhD thesis on Steiner-Marik economic relations and its effects on the military procurement and logistics systems of both nations.
I meant your analysis of the rice shipments, but I would love to join you and marussmythe on a project. I am willing to do tribute the socio-political angle.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #28 on: 20 May 2018, 05:08:04 »
I meant your analysis of the rice shipments, but I would love to join you and marussmythe on a project. I am willing to do tribute the socio-political angle.

Thank you.  I admit though the Kaifeng-Sarna case was a special case since we have almost a closed system and a clearly given plot-critical food import dependency.  I do not think there is sufficient data on many other systems in the Btech universe to do any similar analysis. 

The universe is also interesting in that despite being in a state of interminable war and border raiding, cross-border trade still seems to continue to some degree. 

The socio-political angles have interested me more in recent years.  In particular the reformation of the FWL is of interest, given that its political structure seems to have been reformed to address some of the complaints about the old FWL.  It would be interesting to see what other changes or lack thereof there are in the new FWL.  That's why I personally would be interested in a House Handbook update for all the Houses.  I don't necessarily mean a book per House but a single book updating all Houses to the latest era.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #29 on: 20 May 2018, 05:12:28 »
Something like "Handbook Inner Sphere: 3250."

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #30 on: 20 May 2018, 05:23:48 »
Something like "Handbook Inner Sphere: 3250."

Exactly.  I am interested in more world building aspects like what the person on the street thinks, the economic situation, internal politics, social issues, and any cultural shifts, more than having a list/timeline showing that unit A beat up unit B on planet C that is otherwise just a name and dot on a map. 

There are tidbits dropped about 3250 that are food for thought.  I almost get a Renegade Legion vibe with the arena fights (possibly a mask for rebellion?).

« Last Edit: 20 May 2018, 05:26:13 by Iracundus »

Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #31 on: 20 May 2018, 08:46:44 »
Outside of the introduction was there another 3250 reference in TRO: Succession Wars?

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #32 on: 20 May 2018, 08:54:30 »
no, the rest of the volume was taken directly from the parent TROs

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #33 on: 20 May 2018, 08:59:36 »
Thanks. I did not see anything, but then I totally glossed over the into the first time. :))

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #34 on: 20 May 2018, 09:07:44 »
so far our total knowledge consists of the Loremaster's blurbs in 2SW and TRO:SW plus possibly the kidding-not kidding-am I kidding? April Fool's Day St. Ives turning points from 2012

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #35 on: 20 May 2018, 10:17:06 »
no, the rest of the volume was taken directly from the parent TROs

The Banshee got a new write-up, as the default model was changed to the 3S.  Didn't mention anything about 3250, though.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #36 on: 21 May 2018, 08:01:40 »
I like the time jumps, we skip all the boring peaceful stuff, and get to the meat of the wars quicker. Imagine if we got a sourcebook The machinations of the Free Worlds League in the Star League's Free Trade era"? That would be boring as hell, especially if there was one for every nation state.

I actually agree with this one.

I have said before, Battletech could actually use a relatively peacefull interlude with no sphere-shattering conflicts to allow some of the dust to settle, and for the powers that exist to rebuild their stuff so we can blow it up all over again. A time skip seems like a perfectly appropriate way to handle it.

I wasn't paying much attention during the original 3250 controversy. Was the issue with the time skip itself, or with some element of the teased future era? (I genuinely don't know) I could imagine either, or both being the case.

(Also, I would totally buy a Euro-style economic game based on FWL trade in the age of the 3rd Star League.  :D)

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #37 on: 21 May 2018, 08:20:13 »
I actually agree with this one.

I have said before, Battletech could actually use a relatively peacefull interlude with no sphere-shattering conflicts to allow some of the dust to settle, and for the powers that exist to rebuild their stuff so we can blow it up all over again. A time skip seems like a perfectly appropriate way to handle it.

I wasn't paying much attention during the original 3250 controversy. Was the issue with the time skip itself, or with some element of the teased future era? (I genuinely don't know) I could imagine either, or both being the case.

(Also, I would totally buy a Euro-style economic game based on FWL trade in the age of the 3rd Star League.  :D)

Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.


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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #38 on: 21 May 2018, 09:17:50 »
I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I wasn't involved then with BT to the extent I am now. But if we're going to Monday Morning Quarterback something from five years ago, I believe the biggest single cause of the furor was much simpler: it was the way the plans were presented, as a few passing mentions in a BattleChat by the line developer at that time.

I'll spare everyone the detailed PR/comms theory, because a lot of it is common sense--you just can't do that. There's always going to be pressure from the customers/fans to wheedle out details of what's coming next, and it feels good to break some news. But publicly mentioning 3250 at such an early stage of development was, frankly, disastrous. It's not about hiding things or keeping secrets, it's about proper marketing which brings your already developed and produced products across to customers in an exciting way.

Instead, the passing mentions of yet-uncreated products acted as a referendum on the idea as a whole. Rather than management saying, "here's the new products that are just about ready, and why you're going to be excited about them," they in essence said, "here's what we're thinking about doing." That major difference allowed those opposed to the idea to mount a significant, and ultimately effective, campaign to kill the idea before it ever really got moving.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2018, 09:22:39 by Cubby »
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klarg1

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #39 on: 21 May 2018, 09:54:38 »
Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.

Thanks for the summary.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #40 on: 21 May 2018, 18:09:13 »
Heh, 3250, all this has happened before and will happen again. The Ilclan has fallen, the Inner Sphere is sliding into intro tech and the last Loremaster stands on Terra, rambling about how they got here. ;-)

Voila, compatible with the intro set, with lots of lostech for players to discover. :)
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #41 on: 21 May 2018, 21:22:37 »
My personal explanation is that the Sea Foxes just up and bought Terra.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #42 on: 21 May 2018, 21:28:15 »
My personal explanation is that the Sea Foxes just up and bought Terra.


Your ideas intrigue me.  Do you have a periodical I could subscribe to, perhaps?
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #43 on: 22 May 2018, 18:33:00 »
Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.


I was (and am) firmly in Camp 2.  I had played some of the Mechwarrior video games, but had just discovered the FCCW novels on a local bookstore’s shelves in late summer 2002.  Cue December ‘02, when Ghost War dropped.  Essentially ever since then, Battletech has been constrained by MWDA.  We knew the outcome, we just didn’t know the details of how we got there.  Same for the historicals.  Same for the backlog of old novels I gradually amassed.


So, we’d just gotten to a point where we finally, at long last, caught up and could do...anything, really. I was actually getting really excited to see not just how we’d reach a known destination, but where we’d go.  And then people start talking about jumping a hundred years into the future.  I mean, that’s also a new era with no pre-determined outcome, but I didn’t want to leave this one!  I wanted to know what happens when the Fortress falls, whether or not Julian will bail the FedSuns out, and so on and so forth.  And I wanted to see it in real time, not a summary in a 20 Year Update-type product.  Still do, really.  Historicals are nice, but I’d much rather see some updates on the bleeding edge.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #44 on: 22 May 2018, 23:43:43 »
just like the first drips out of a leaking dam are probably just condensation

Wheres that "like" button at?? :))

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #45 on: 23 May 2018, 12:11:03 »
Hindsight is 20/20, and I wasn't involved then with BT to the extent I am now. But if we're going to Monday Morning Quarterback something from five years ago, I believe the biggest single cause of the furor was much simpler: it was the way the plans were presented, as a few passing mentions in a BattleChat by the line developer at that time.

There was also a leak of information. Herb never publicly stated what his plans for the post-Dark Age era were, aside from moving into the new era of 3250. Sadly, someone privy to the internal discussions told a buddy, and that buddy posted a very angry series of questions in "Ask the Writers." It was especially frustrating to those of us "in the know" to suddenly see everything become public in such a manner, as much of it was still under internal discussion and development. Those of us with NDAs clammed up and Herb did the best he could, but it was beyond anyone's control at that point. So an entire cycle of product development had to be scuttled over literally nothing. I'm hopeful the new team can salvage something from the wreck because man, it was going to be glorious.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #46 on: 23 May 2018, 17:07:50 »
Loose lips still sink ships

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #47 on: 24 May 2018, 07:06:20 »
Loose lips still sink ships

Heh, that's not what I'm reading here Sartris. This is a deliberate scuttling by a fan who didn't agree with the proposed changes, it's a pretty tried and true formula that's been used in many fields. Unfortunately, most people only see one side of the argument, and will jerk their knee so hard they put their back out in self-righteous outrage. Now, in some cases this approach is justified, don't get me wrong. BUT in a case about the future of a fictional game universe? Yeah, you're not going to sell me on that one.

To be honest I wish the Devs has simply battened down the hatches and weathered the storm. This forum does not contain anywhere near all of the player base, and isn't representative of them. I saw exactly the same storm when GW's games shifted to their current versions, and both of those games have shown growth in player numbers. Unfortunately the OG of Battletech have the Devs bluffed, and the Devs now act like they are running scared of a sector of the player base.  I'd rather see the game go down in flames doing something glorious than fade away without a whimper because the one sector of the player base the Devs listen to are reactionary.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #48 on: 24 May 2018, 13:20:42 »
Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #49 on: 24 May 2018, 13:33:01 »
I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future

Winning is never a future for anyone in BattleTech. It's only temporary.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #50 on: 24 May 2018, 13:39:33 »
I did an analysis of the economic viability of shipping rice from Kaifeng to Sarna:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=vpobojutv59frregd2sp0h9r54&topic=54402.0

AFAIK the catgirl apocalypse has not happened.  Clearly more can be done before we cross that line.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #51 on: 24 May 2018, 14:12:48 »
Winning is never a future for anyone in BattleTech. It's only temporary.
Someone will be on top when the lights go out.

After all, 2042 is the last World Series, and the London Kings will permanently be the titleholders. 

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Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #52 on: 24 May 2018, 14:22:26 »
Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

I had a hard time coming to grips with the post-jihad story line. When I looked at it I was thinking of how thing would develop and getting the synopsis of one novel after another I was really uncertain that I would follow the game where it was going. Then I looked at it from a different angle. I looked at the FWL. The fractured FWL seemed like a great idea to me. It was like a "pick your league" situation where players who could back one of the sub-factions and run with it, while at the same time the game added potential conflict. I actually started to hope something like this would happen with Combine and the other houses. The clans already had thier internal factionalism.

I seriously doubt the the ilClan storyline will lead to a new, eternal league. I would not be surprised we see a period of peace under the ilClan with things starting to unravel when we get to 3250.

But that is just me.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #53 on: 24 May 2018, 14:29:51 »
Someone will be on top when the lights go out.

After all, 2042 is the last World Series, and the London Kings will permanently be the titleholders. 


That's what they said when Theodosius the First canceled the Olympics. Good thing for Michael Phelps some folks decided to make a change.
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Iracundus

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #54 on: 24 May 2018, 16:49:19 »
Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

I can say I personally have a distaste for the Clans mainly based on their background.  The only way I can see an ilClan really is something akin to how the Mongols ruled over China briefly.  Numerically the Clans are far outnumbered by the IS, just as the Mongols were outnumbered by their subjects.  The lore snippets we have had from TRO: Succession Wars seems to suggest a Jade Falcon-like snobbery and contempt for freeborns, which I could see paralleling the Mongolian Yuan dynasty of China and its hierarchy of reliability/status for the various groups under their rule.  Like the Mongols, I would see the eventual collapse of an ilClan led League similarly to the Mongols.  They were absorbed by the culture of the conquered, and the ruling class became more absorbed in their own internal politics and civil wars than in ruling, until their subjects rose up in revolt and kicked them back out to the Pentago...steppes

ColBosch

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #55 on: 24 May 2018, 17:13:23 »
Wait, did people really think that the Third League/ilClan was going to work? Welcome to BattleTech, folks, where the entire point is to break everything.
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Sartris

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #56 on: 24 May 2018, 17:18:04 »
Wait, did people really think that the Third League/ilClan was going to work? Welcome to BattleTech, folks, where the entire point is to break everything.

Don’t you know hysteria-derived outcomes based on the tiniest portion of partial information are the most accurate truth?

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ColBosch

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #57 on: 24 May 2018, 17:27:59 »
Don’t you know hysteria-derived outcomes based on the tiniest portion of partial information are the most accurate truth?

You know what really tickles my pickle here? Because of the fan furor, instead of regular releases of products moving the timeline forward that some might not have liked, we instead got several years of very few products at all, and a good chunk of that was rehashed material. *slow claps* Good work, guys.

(And no offense meant to the folks who worked on those products. Something had to come out, after all, and the quality of the books continues to be excellent.)
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Sellsword

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #58 on: 24 May 2018, 18:06:27 »
You know what really tickles my pickle here? Because of the fan furor, instead of regular releases of products moving the timeline forward that some might not have liked, we instead got several years of very few products at all, and a good chunk of that was rehashed material. *slow claps* Good work, guys.

(And no offense meant to the folks who worked on those products. Something had to come out, after all, and the quality of the books continues to be excellent.)

I don’t know what happened internally with CGL during this period but I think it’s a bit  unfair to just blame the over reacting fans for the end result of diminished products. It seems to me that scrapping plans for the time jump and rules modifications do to the over reaction of fans is in itself over reacting.

ColBosch

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #59 on: 24 May 2018, 18:17:09 »
I don’t know what happened internally with CGL during this period but I think it’s a bit  unfair to just blame the over reacting fans for the end result of diminished products. It seems to me that scrapping plans for the time jump and rules modifications do to the over reaction of fans is in itself over reacting.

So CGL should've released products that the fans, at the time, said they didn't want? ;)
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #60 on: 24 May 2018, 18:27:49 »
So CGL should've released products that the fans, at the time, said they didn't want? ;)

No.  Not everyone was against the time jump.

CGL never really explained their vision for the future well to the fans.  Maybe they didn’t have a great plan set up. I don’t know but soon as fans reacted negatively to the hints and ideas that were presented,  CGL went on the defensive and became antagonistic in turn. It was probably the worst period that I’ve seen the game go through.  What I don’t want to see is finger pointing and blaming about stuff that has past. Battletech seems to have more communicative and open management team and the customers in turn appear to be more open to discussion and change. I don’t want to go back to the bad old days.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #61 on: 24 May 2018, 18:47:42 »
So CGL should've released products that the fans, at the time, said they didn't want? ;)

Aren't we always told the the forums represent a tiny slice of the fandom as a whole? Why would they base any of their strategy on how the forums reacted? No, my understanding was that those plans didn't go forward because of feedback from the people directly privy to the initial drafts of them, not anything to do with a couple people here expressing their discontent.


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ColBosch

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #62 on: 24 May 2018, 19:54:32 »
I'm not denying that things got hairy there for a while. I was fired for being antagonistic, after all. But my point is that normally any issues upper management had with the products and plans would've been addressed behind closed doors before the fans ever heard of them. But, because someone broke NDA, CGL/IMR's "brass" felt their hands were forced. The outcry really was vociferous, and while I think CGL made some serious errors in their handling of the situation - and believe me, I've got my bones to pick with them - at the time it looked like a total revolt of the fanbase. BattleTech needs new players, yes, but it is mostly surviving thanks to folks like you.

I apologize for making it seem like the fans were the problem. Really, they weren't. From the information they had, it did look like it was a Warhammer-style "throw out everything you own and buy all new stuff" move.
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #63 on: 24 May 2018, 23:09:50 »
You know what really tickles my pickle here? Because of the fan furor, instead of regular releases of products moving the timeline forward that some might not have liked, we instead got several years of very few products at all, and a good chunk of that was rehashed material. *slow claps* Good work, guys.

Looking through this forum and remembering when there was a lot more activity and discussions during the Jihad, and the lack of products, I've thought the same thing.

Then I realized they probably are happy.  Most of the old faces I recognize still posting on these boards were against advancing the story, after all. 

Products they weren't going to buy in the first place not being released isn't going to bother them.  Discussions on these boards that were of no interest to them won't be missed.

I first encountered Battletech through the card game back in the 90s.  In the two decades I've followed the game, it's advanced a decade and a half or so- the Jihad.  The Dark Ages was originally from the Wizkids game.

A five year hiatus of products is nothing new to fans that choose to ignore eras such as anything post 3067, 3050, or even 3030.

Hell, new players in HBS asking about the 'tabletop' are often warned against buying new products and instead pointed to eBay for the original FASA stuff because 3025 is the only real Battletech  ::).

Sometimes I wonder if Catalyst threw in the towel on Battletech if most of the still active base would just move to a fan forum and things would continue as if nothing changed.

I'm not denying that things got hairy there for a while. I was fired for being antagonistic, after all. But my point is that normally any issues upper management had with the products and plans would've been addressed behind closed doors before the fans ever heard of them. But, because someone broke NDA, CGL/IMR's "brass" felt their hands were forced. The outcry really was vociferous, and while I think CGL made some serious errors in their handling of the situation - and believe me, I've got my bones to pick with them - at the time it looked like a total revolt of the fanbase. BattleTech needs new players, yes, but it is mostly surviving thanks to folks like you.

I apologize for making it seem like the fans were the problem. Really, they weren't. From the information they had, it did look like it was a Warhammer-style "throw out everything you own and buy all new stuff" move.

Was the NDA specific to 3250 content?  I must have missed that- I remember some former TPTB saying that when 3250 was scuttled, payment for work that had been done (but not released) was put on hiatus and I thought that might have been the NDA breaking thing.

With all the attempts to provide content to all eras- Historicals for Inner Sphere and Clans, Jihad and Dark Ages books as well as Era reports for new players interested in the Clan Invasion and Civil War, my understanding when the news of 3250 broke was that it was just another era.  New tech, new mechs, etc. sure but it wasn't as if I couldn't throw down a game in 3180 or whatever with 3145 'mechs taking on the new technology, or one week play a game in 3250 and the next play a 3025 game.

You know, same shit different era.


« Last Edit: 24 May 2018, 23:11:23 by Sid »
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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #64 on: 25 May 2018, 04:17:43 »
Look, people are allowed to enjoy what they enjoy. It's a damn shame that they got the impression that the entire game was going to change, but this is why we sign NDAs.
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Drewbacca

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #65 on: 25 May 2018, 06:46:19 »
As I have said the worst things about any property are the fans.

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #66 on: 25 May 2018, 07:29:17 »

Hell, new players in HBS asking about the 'tabletop' are often warned against buying new products and instead pointed to eBay for the original FASA stuff because 3025 is the only real Battletech  ::).


I'd like to believe that this group of people are a vocal minority.  I don't believe Battletech would have survived this long if these people were in the majority.  Someone had to be buying the Jihad era source books.

If anything good came out of the original time jump fiasco it is that there seems to be a lot more civil discussion between the groups who want change and those who want everything to stay the same.

Colt Ward

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #67 on: 25 May 2018, 09:37:51 »
Nah, Grogs still grog . . . I think some of the TW-AS infighting has died down, I know I still have my reservations but some of my attitude on AS has changed.  My interest has also morph'd when we had a TPTB happily talk about wiping out my original faction that brought me into the game- the writing for that was on the wall however in the Jihad.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #68 on: 25 May 2018, 09:53:45 »
As I have said the worst things about any property are the fans.

Yup.
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Adrian Gideon

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Re: 3250 reference in Second Succession War
« Reply #69 on: 25 May 2018, 12:38:33 »
I was going to let it go but since it came up a few times I need to clarify. There was NO NDA breach on 3250. Please stop spreading that.
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