Author Topic: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?  (Read 4444 times)

Korzon77

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Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« on: 23 May 2018, 03:23:41 »
Which is to say, a soft limit generally implies: we don't know how yet/ its too expensive/there hasn't been the need. But one day,the limit will be exceeded.

A hard limit is: No, the Universerse says no. There are natural laws preventing you from exceeding this limit.

So, in the fluff that's been floating around the btech universe, has there even been any hint as to which limit we're hitting?

Straw Boss

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2018, 03:48:52 »
I don't want to meet any creepy bird people so i am not super motivated to test that limit.
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Col Toda

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2018, 08:11:11 »
I suppose it depends on what you want to move . The Star League had Ice Ships that could jump in tandom to move mostly ice asteroids that weighs far more than 2.5 million tons .  I was in a campaign that stole a shipyard using ice ships . Found out that the shipyard came out worse for were and the parts of the shipyard that came out of jump space needed a lot of restoration . Running and building  War Ships is a very very expensive proposition . My gut felling it is a sane practical limit as larger ones may be too much of a burden in the Gross Domestic Product vs expensive . Also KF Drive fields physics very well start to build larger ones may be doable but safety may start to get impaired. I think why no push for it to happen is no one wants to sink that many resources in one platform .
« Last Edit: 23 May 2018, 08:14:29 by Col Toda »

beachhead1985

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2018, 08:16:26 »
Soft limit; because we have arkships which have permanently attached dropships, which would take the ship over 2.5mt.
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Moonsword

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2018, 08:21:25 »
Soft limit; because we have arkships which have permanently attached dropships, which would take the ship over 2.5mt.

They're still DropShips as far as the drive is concerned, there's just extra structural reinforcement on the docking point.

Talen5000

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2018, 08:43:25 »
Which is to say, a soft limit generally implies: we don't know how yet/ its too expensive/there hasn't been the need. But one day,the limit will be exceeded.

A hard limit is: No, the Universerse says no. There are natural laws preventing you from exceeding this limit.

So, in the fluff that's been floating around the btech universe, has there even been any hint as to which limit we're hitting?

Soft.

From the canon, the real limit appears to be mass based, with compact cores limited to approx 7 times their mass. More, if KF fields can be adjusted to carry massive asteroids (Ryan Iceships) through Kspace then it seems self evident is a lack of power...control...tuning...to bring heavier masses through safely.
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Paul

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #6 on: 23 May 2018, 11:57:47 »
Soft. Fluff wise, it's probably a KF controller limit; it can only handle so much. Obviously, that might be improved at some point, however far in the future.

But it's not likely that this limit will be changed any time soon for meta reasons.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #7 on: 23 May 2018, 13:11:19 »
Soft.

From the canon, the real limit appears to be mass based, with compact cores limited to approx 7 times their mass. More, if KF fields can be adjusted to carry massive asteroids (Ryan Iceships) through Kspace then it seems self evident is a lack of power...control...tuning...to bring heavier masses through safely.

I would clarify that the ice asteroids that were carried through KF space did not arrive at the other end in anything resembling a contiguous mass.  Fortunately, ice does not suffer a critical existence failure from being shattered and warped in hundreds (if not more) of ways.

Vition2

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #8 on: 23 May 2018, 21:51:46 »
My own personal headcanon suggests a semi-hard limit.  That once the K-F drive gets to a certain mass, its inherent gravity starts to interfere with the operations of the jump (which for some reason stands at the arbitrary number of 1,131,250 tons).  The other parts of the warship and attached dropships (even if there are fifty of them), are not dense enough to meaningfully effect the jump.

Now for the "semi" part, it means that technically a larger sized warship could be built, but the K-F drive would suffer damage with each jump.  One could theoretically create a truly massive warship, as long as they were willing to repair the K-F drive after every jump.

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #9 on: 23 May 2018, 22:06:28 »
There's a brief bit of fluff in one of the rulebooks that indicates it's a hard limit in universe.

It also mentions its a limit that nobody's actually reached yet, with the Leviathan getting the closest. This suggests that engineers in universe know (or knew) the technology well enough to predict what that limit would be without ever reaching it. My guess is there's a predictable limit to the maximum size and load of a KF drive.

BUT the fact that you can attach fifty dropships to our hypothetical 2.5 million ton ship and still jump safely suggests that the total jumpable load (with appropriate numbers of KF booms to spread things out) is actually 7.5 million tons. In theory, it might be possible to put all that mass just into one ship, rather than a ship and its docking collars.

But that way lies a madness that might spawn some of the worst impulses formerly triggered by another "m" word.

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #10 on: 23 May 2018, 22:14:32 »
I get the impression that the DropShip thing works off of waste energy of the main process. So it tags along on, say, a 2.5mton event, but can never be a part of it. So the 7.5 million ton thing would never work.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #11 on: 23 May 2018, 22:47:12 »
I get the impression that the DropShip thing works off of waste energy of the main process. So it tags along on, say, a 2.5mton event, but can never be a part of it. So the 7.5 million ton thing would never work.

For the sake of my sanity, I have to assume there's some sort of engineering reason it won't work.  :D
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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JadedFalcon

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #12 on: 24 May 2018, 00:50:28 »
Another explanation is Star-League physics establishing probability-related safety figures.

Or the void monsters that eat jumpships typically have to throw back anything that is under the recommended limit.

monbvol

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #13 on: 24 May 2018, 15:35:48 »
Another thing to keep in mind is that fuel use even at station keeping could become prohibitive when trying to exceed 2.5m.

Paul

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #14 on: 24 May 2018, 16:10:28 »
Another thing to keep in mind is that fuel use even at station keeping could become prohibitive when trying to exceed 2.5m.

? Why?
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monbvol

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #15 on: 24 May 2018, 16:29:29 »
I probably need to reword that.  Smartphones are not very conducive for me to explain what I mean very well.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #16 on: 24 May 2018, 16:33:29 »
? Why?

Because if the exhaust velocity of that fuel gets any higher, it's gonna punch through reality and hit Cthulhu in the face.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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monbvol

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #17 on: 24 May 2018, 16:43:25 »
Which is what I meant to say.

Exhaust velocity is already darn near physics breaking, maybe actually already be so for something that massive.

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #18 on: 24 May 2018, 17:15:39 »
BattleTech's "fusion" plants already break physics, not to mention its energy weapons, armor, ground pressure loadings, the square-cube law...if you're trying to keep the science "hard," then I've got news for you, buddy: that ship has sailed and is never coming back.
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haesslich

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #19 on: 24 May 2018, 20:01:19 »
BattleTech's "fusion" plants already break physics, not to mention its energy weapons, armor, ground pressure loadings, the square-cube law...if you're trying to keep the science "hard," then I've got news for you, buddy: that ship has sailed and is never coming back.

Don't you mean they it already jumped out system a few decades ago?

ColBosch

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #20 on: 24 May 2018, 20:06:21 »
Don't you mean they it already jumped out system a few decades ago?

It left with Kerensky, but sided with the Prinz Eugen mutiny. ;D
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haesslich

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #21 on: 25 May 2018, 08:51:26 »
It left with Kerensky, but sided with the Prinz Eugen mutiny. ;D

I guess getting shot, then shoved out the airlock explains why Clan tech still isn't the standard tech in 3150...

Talen5000

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #22 on: 25 May 2018, 14:57:09 »
I get the impression that the DropShip thing works off of waste energy of the main process. So it tags along on, say, a 2.5mton event, but can never be a part of it. So the 7.5 million ton thing would never work.

One piece of canon puts the limit a CC KF Drive can carry at 6.66 times its own mass while a SC KF drive is limited to 2.5 times its own mass
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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #23 on: 25 May 2018, 17:14:01 »
Which is what I meant to say.

Exhaust velocity is already darn near physics breaking, maybe actually already be so for something that massive.
ColBosch has it right... exhaust velocity already breaks physics (it may not be super-luminal, but it's still not possible).

monbvol

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #24 on: 25 May 2018, 17:26:49 »
The main thing that does seem to keep it from being completely and utterly physics breaking is just how many fuel points you get per ton and how little you need to just station keep.

Still since there is at least lip service paid to physics it does present a justifiable practical upper limit.

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #25 on: 25 May 2018, 17:53:42 »
If I remember the math I did way back in the day correctly, station keeping works... That's what led me to suggest cutting strategic thrust by a factor of 10.  Seriously, 1/10th of a G *continuously* is still FAR in advance of what we can do now.

ColBosch

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #26 on: 25 May 2018, 18:05:06 »
Oh good, let's make space battles even slower. ;)
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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #27 on: 25 May 2018, 18:08:00 »
If I remember the math I did way back in the day correctly, station keeping works... That's what led me to suggest cutting strategic thrust by a factor of 10.  Seriously, 1/10th of a G *continuously* is still FAR in advance of what we can do now.

Running any type of exhaust-based propulsion for days on end is far in advance of what we can do, true (well, there's the ion drive, but that's only used on probes and satellites).  We do have ships that can produce far great acceleration for even longer periods of time then required by most BT ships, but they require manipulating another medium via screws.  Fission fuel is incredibly long lasting, but it is lousy for providing efficient exhaust-based propulsion.

Of course, there is the difficulty we are having on producing any net-positive energy producing fusion generators in the first place.  I'd say be concerned about how realistic such fusion torches can be after being able to provide such an efficient generator as we see fusion engines in Battletech.
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monbvol

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #28 on: 25 May 2018, 18:11:44 »
If I remember the math I did way back in the day correctly, station keeping works... That's what led me to suggest cutting strategic thrust by a factor of 10.  Seriously, 1/10th of a G *continuously* is still FAR in advance of what we can do now.

*nod*

Now though I feel like I need to double check if station keeping is 0.1g or 0.1 thrust point.  It does alter the math a bit.

Either way I think it is just a simplified rounding up versus what you'd really need to stay in place.

Oh good, let's make space battles even slower. ;)

Just change the primary jump points to the closer in stuff and just hand wave super power jammers to change scale of hexes to something more manageable and it'd be fine.

Daryk

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Re: Is the 2.5Mton KF drive limit hard or soft?
« Reply #29 on: 25 May 2018, 18:44:39 »
Oh good, let's make space battles even slower. ;)
I only suggested applying that to Strategic Thrust, not Tactical... No space battles should be taking place using only Strategic Thrust...

 

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