BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Inner Sphere => Topic started by: Minemech on 29 December 2023, 21:21:12
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What would you argue to be the most illogical or irrational decision made by an Inner Sphere leader, be they state or phone company? The RD is basically an Inner Sphere state so they can be included.
A few tasters:
Why did Takashi want to bring Maximilian into his alliance with Janos? It could only be read as him thinking that he was more than the first among equals when he was neither. Maximilian had nothing to offer the two, even from a sympathetic realist perspective and his role in the recent civil war in the League was publicly known. The Confederation was locked in its pariah position in the Inner Sphere, and all that Janos and Takashi had to do was coordinate with a desperate Maximilian while rejecting him. Takashi was neither stupid nor naive, rather all five at the time were top notch.
Why in the world would Victor Steiner-Davion be appointed the Precentor-Martial of Comstar? The origins of Focht made sense since Comstar was that desperate to have a real military, but not only was Victor out of house, but he had a conflict of interests as the voting Comstar member of the Star League. Victor had literally nothing to offer the Comguards. All it did was make members think that Comstar was nothing more than a puppet entity, and TRO 3057's explanation of the Impavido did not help allay that concern for readers at the time. Lastly it gave the still legal First Prince access to ROM intelligence. The man could have landed on New Avalon the whole time and dismissed Katherine, which is another loopy decision.
Why did Victor make Yvonne regent?
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Why did Victor make Yvonne regent?
Peter had exiled himself and Arthur was widely regarded as a hothead so that left Yvonne.
And really, it should have been fine, because the whole thing with Katherine somehow deposing Yvonne by manipulating opinion polls or some such is low-key one of the most ridiculous plot devices in the history of the IP.
Victor's really illogical decision was leaving the Inner Sphere to go lead Task Force Bulldog personally, but that's just the whole feudal-king-leading-troops-from-the-front trope BattleTech loves writ large.
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What would you argue to be the most illogical or irrational decision made by an Inner Sphere leader, be they state or phone company? The RD is basically an Inner Sphere state so they can be included.
A few tasters:
Why did Takashi want to bring Maximilian into his alliance with Janos? It could only be read as him thinking that he was more than the first among equals when he was neither. Maximilian had nothing to offer the two, even from a sympathetic realist perspective and his role in the recent civil war in the League was publicly known. The Confederation was locked in its pariah position in the Inner Sphere, and all that Janos and Takashi had to do was coordinate with a desperate Maximilian while rejecting him. Takashi was neither stupid nor naive, rather all five at the time were top notch.
Why in the world would Victor Steiner-Davion be appointed the Precentor-Martial of Comstar? The origins of Focht made sense since Comstar was that desperate to have a real military, but not only was Victor out of house, but he had a conflict of interests as the voting Comstar member of the Star League. Victor had literally nothing to offer the Comguards. All it did was make members think that Comstar was nothing more than a puppet entity, and TRO 3057's explanation of the Impavido did not help allay that concern for readers at the time. Lastly it gave the still legal First Prince access to ROM intelligence. The man could have landed on New Avalon the whole time and dismissed Katherine, which is another loopy decision.
Why did Victor make Yvonne regent?
I'd argue that neither of these is illogical.
In 3025, the CCAF was not the sick man of the Inner Sphere that barely survived through the 3030s. They were still mostly considered a first-rate House capable of fighting one of its neighbors on a relatively even footing, just as they had through the 3rd Succession War. They might have been smaller than the AFFS, but bringing the Capellans into an alliance with the Free Worlds meant that ideally Janos Marik could move more troops off the Capellan border and stack them on the Lyran border instead. Likewise, the CCAF could shift more regiments to the FedSuns border -- in both cases, this puts more 'Mechs on the borders of the enemies of the Dragon, lessening the force that either the Steiners or Davions could focus on the Combine.
Victor's appointment as Precenter Martial was, in my mind, a pretty smart move. Victor and his block were all savvy enough to read the room and see that Katrina would win the next vote for First Lord. By drawing Rasalhague to their side -- which Teddy was able to do -- they achieved a draw in the vote, in which case the tie-breaking vote goes to ComStar. Focht was old and ready to retire anyway, so by letting Victor take his place and cast the deciding vote, Focht maintained his outward-facing "Sphere-first neutrality" while simultaneously thwarting Katrina. It also kept Victor in a position of power. Without the Archon-Princedom or Commanding General SLDF, he would have lived out his days as a private citizen (probably in the Combine). So this move: 1. kept Victor (one of the "main characters" of the setting) in power, 2. kept Focht's hands politically clean, 3. aligned the FRR solidly on the White Hat Team, and 4. prevented Katrina from being in a position to seize ultimate power. Both in- and out-of-universe, it's a good play.
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So this move: 1. kept Victor (one of the "main characters" of the setting) in power, 2. kept Focht's hands politically clean, 3. aligned the FRR solidly on the White Hat Team, and 4. prevented Katrina from being in a position to seize ultimate power. Both in- and out-of-universe, it's a good play.
I think the argument Minemech is making is that none of this is particularly in ComStar's best interests, whereas fairly transparently taking a side in the Katherine-vs-Victor feud compromises their credibility.
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no other house leader has dared tattoo their house emblem on their forehead after janos. cowards all.
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hmmmm...
Trying to claim the First Lord of the Star League after dissolving it.
which would be...all of them.
Any one of the House Lords could have played kingmaker and maybe gotten a break during teh succession wars, by not trying to succeed to the throne. the easiest way to get nearly everyone on your border to leave you alone?
"We'll talk rejoining to whichever of the rest of you wins. we're staying out of this." The Lyrans had the Rim Worlds they could've been absorbing and industrially digesting, fighting over the remains of the Terran Hegemony after Amaris and Kerensky finished taking turns annihilating it for a decade (and everyone else is trying to grab it) seems...dumb, pointless, really, especially after what the FWL went through with New Dallas.
but then, I'm an optimist.
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LOL no professing neutrality wouldn't have done anything, it would have invited attack as everyone attempted to force the neutral party to reckongize their claim. It literally would have put a target on their backs
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No, I gotta agree with Cannonshop on this one. At the very least, the advantage of not having an extra front on their borders (for the time being) should basically be a gift Commonwealth's main two border states, the Draconis Combine and the Free Worlds League, who would have one less front compared to their foes. And what would the Cappies and Feds do, they've got no Lyran border and two fronts of their own to worry about.
Not that either couldn't theoretically stab the Commonwealth in the back after they declare neutrality, but opening another front against an (admittedly nominally) neutral party for no good reason would itself be a massive unforced error.
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The Periphery leaders financing terrorists to break free from the Star League and when they manage that they have to deal with said terrorists and no one is giving them money through trade. Kind of ilogical to think the members of said League would happily buy their stuff now
For the CCAF: said army was simply exhausted before the 4th Sucession War. The elasticx defense concept had worn out their machines and soldiers. Plus the indutry could not support said military operational tempo adequately anymore
I have another one: Victor deciding to initiate Operation GEMINI despite all the risks involved. Yes the explanation was that they could not keep up their miliitary without the supplies but seriously? At that point the FedCom factories were churning out so much new Mechs that I would suspect that this would have been enough to upgrade at least the frontline units while also rebuilding and reorganizing the military. I think being honest with "Thomas Marik" would have been the better option then using a body double to keep the detente
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Peter had exiled himself and Arthur was widely regarded as a hothead so that left Yvonne.
And really, it should have been fine, because the whole thing with Katherine somehow deposing Yvonne by manipulating opinion polls or some such is low-key one of the most ridiculous plot devices in the history of the IP.
Victor's really illogical decision was leaving the Inner Sphere to go lead Task Force Bulldog personally, but that's just the whole feudal-king-leading-troops-from-the-front trope BattleTech loves writ large.
It is a bit of a loop because by making Yvonne regent, she could not become First Prince should he die in the field. That on its own should have caused him to reconsider. Victor's Ian tag was earned.
I'd argue that neither of these is illogical.
In 3025, the CCAF was not the sick man of the Inner Sphere that barely survived through the 3030s. They were still mostly considered a first-rate House capable of fighting one of its neighbors on a relatively even footing, just as they had through the 3rd Succession War. They might have been smaller than the AFFS, but bringing the Capellans into an alliance with the Free Worlds meant that ideally Janos Marik could move more troops off the Capellan border and stack them on the Lyran border instead. Likewise, the CCAF could shift more regiments to the FedSuns border -- in both cases, this puts more 'Mechs on the borders of the enemies of the Dragon, lessening the force that either the Steiners or Davions could focus on the Combine.
The Capellan Confederation was in a compelled position and both Janos and Takashi knew it. Heck, Janos was rejoicing in epicaricasy. Furthermore, Maximilian had already unilaterally disarmed the Andurien border. Adding them to the alliance did not place them on higher alert, rather it may have played a role in their decision to drop that status. Janos really could move troops the swiftest, so keeping a few Andurien regiments on the border really was not a bother. Lastly, Maximilian was known to be the least stable of the bunch, as was the assumption with Liaos in general across the Successor States.
Victor's appointment as Precenter Martial was, in my mind, a pretty smart move. Victor and his block were all savvy enough to read the room and see that Katrina would win the next vote for First Lord. By drawing Rasalhague to their side -- which Teddy was able to do -- they achieved a draw in the vote, in which case the tie-breaking vote goes to ComStar. Focht was old and ready to retire anyway, so by letting Victor take his place and cast the deciding vote, Focht maintained his outward-facing "Sphere-first neutrality" while simultaneously thwarting Katrina. It also kept Victor in a position of power. Without the Archon-Princedom or Commanding General SLDF, he would have lived out his days as a private citizen (probably in the Combine). So this move: 1. kept Victor (one of the "main characters" of the setting) in power, 2. kept Focht's hands politically clean, 3. aligned the FRR solidly on the White Hat Team, and 4. prevented Katrina from being in a position to seize ultimate power. Both in- and out-of-universe, it's a good play.
Keeping Victor was not in Comstar's interest, nor did it keep Focht's hands clean for he could have chosen from any number of excellent Comguard officers who would have been better for its interests. Rather it made him Victor camp. Victor technically had the legal right to return to New Avalon and reassume his position, all he needed to do to keep her from seizing ultimate power was order her immediate arrest, and a "swift and fair trial" for treason and sedition followed by an execution. Line politics are brutal, and not only would it have been seen as such, but the waves would have been swiftly allayed. It is likely what either his uncle or father would have done and Frederick knew it.
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Keeping Victor was not in Comstar's interest, nor did it keep Focht's hands clean for he could have chosen from any number of excellent Comguard officers who would have been better for its interests. Rather it made him Victor camp. Victor technically had the legal right to return to New Avalon and reassume his position, all he needed to do to keep her from seizing ultimate power was order her immediate arrest, and a "swift and fair trial" for treason and sedition followed by an execution. Line politics are brutal, and not only would it have been seen as such, but the waves would have been swiftly allayed. It is likely what either his uncle or father would have done and Frederick knew it.
The disconnect here, as pointed out by Middcore, is that you're looking at Focht through the lens of "best thing for ComStar." Sure, by that metric, Victor was not a good choice. But this wasn't ComStar making the decision. It was Focht, so you have to consider the rationale of the decision through Focht's eyes. Focht, as we all should know by now, was actually Frederick Steiner -- a member of the Lyran ruling line, trained at the Nagelring, very military-minded, very honorable, and quite politically naive. Sound familiar? Focht had a lot in common with Victor and probably saw much of himself in Victor. Katherine on the other hand was exactly the type of person that had manipulated and screwed over Focht when he was Frederick -- Lestrade, I think? I forget -- so on the converse he'd be pre-disposed against Katherine. He had already dealt with one such political animal by the most extreme measures back in 3052 when she'd stabbed him in the back.
So Focht isn't acting in the best interest of the ComGuards or ComStar, or even himself or Victor. He's suffered at the hands of Katherine's type, he's seen what someone with Sphere-wide power of that type is capable of (Waterly & SCORPION), so by blocking her ascension he's acting (again, in his mind) in the best interest of the entire Inner Sphere.
As for Victor's return after the Great Refusal, he never would have made it to New Avalon without an army at his back. He couldn't just "order her arrest." Order who? DMI & MIIO, who were largely just following whatever orders came from the Davion palace? The First Davion Guards were on New Avalon, sure, but we all saw what happened to them when the shooting starting. And order it how? Katherine had an iron-grip on the media within her borders, so would any public call for her arrest even make it past the broadcast blackouts she would undoubtedly put in place? He was tired of fighting & he wanted to avoid a civil war at all costs, so this little surprise that he, Teddy, and Focht cooked up was the best route to block Katherine's aspirations without violence.
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"Is Terra valuable?"
"No."
Focht and Victor don't know that all Focht's guns and all the engines for Victor's new navy both come from there.
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As for Victor's return after the Great Refusal, he never would have made it to New Avalon without an army at his back. He couldn't just "order her arrest." Order who? DMI & MIIO, who were largely just following whatever orders came from the Davion palace? The First Davion Guards were on New Avalon, sure, but we all saw what happened to them when the shooting starting. And order it how? Katherine had an iron-grip on the media within her borders, so would any public call for her arrest even make it past the broadcast blackouts she would undoubtedly put in place? He was tired of fighting & he wanted to avoid a civil war at all costs, so this little surprise that he, Teddy, and Focht cooked up was the best route to block Katherine's aspirations without violence.
Simply landing at the Comstar facility would have given Victor full communication with any entity on planet he wanted to have communication with. He also would have had far higher quality communication, which would have been substantially more difficult to block out. His choice to go to war ranks among the weirdest decisions since he was legally fully First Prince. In fact, he was legally the Star League vote for the Federated Commonwealth, though he never demanded it. The truth is, he had the power to depose her anytime he wanted to from well too many locations, he simply was incompetent.
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On the Concord of Kapteyn
Well, to be fair, "overextended and exhausted" was pretty much the state of the whole inner sphere militaries, particularly the FWLM which was still reeling from the civil-war on top of the rest of the action. Yes, the CCAF was, as always, the worst of the lot, but things were better then they had been a few decades ago by the time the concord of kapteyn was signed.
The fact is that the concord's existence was purely a consequence of the fed-com alliance. Keeping the capellans out of it would've been pointless. And if I recall the quote correctly, as Takashi said to Janos: "The combine does not need you but you need the combine". One way or another, Takashi was going to be the senior partner in that alliance.
Janos had nothing to lose if he swallowed his pride, but if I recall correctly, the concord also included interesting economical perspectives for the league...such as the combine markets opening up somewhat for league merchandise. An interesting perspective to be sure.
And then, who expected him to be bound to help or even pretend trusting Maximillian with the treaty anyway? The supplies he sent during the 4th SW were ample enough in "upholding the alliance", considering the circumstances.
Keeping with most illogical decision around the 4th SW, not simply killing Hanse Davion on the spot during operation doppleganger, or Aran Sortek (though that was most probably a lower rung decision) for the matter. Now there was an opportunity lost, and boy, the consequences.
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On the Concord of Kapteyn
Well, to be fair, "overextended and exhausted" was pretty much the state of the whole inner sphere militaries, particularly the FWLM which was still reeling from the civil-war on top of the rest of the action. Yes, the CCAF was, as always, the worst of the lot, but things were better then they had been a few decades ago by the time the concord of kapteyn was signed.
The fact is that the concord's existence was purely a consequence of the fed-com alliance. Keeping the Capellans out of it would've been pointless. And if I recall the quote correctly, as Takashi said to Janos: "The combine does not need you but you need the combine". One way or another, Takashi was going to be the senior partner in that alliance.
I am going to have to disagree with you on the position of Takashi's position. While on paper his military was larger, it did not have anything resembling the strategic mobility of the Free Worlds League Militia, nor was it near as effective at or in combating combined arms. Both were excellent aerospace powers. The Takashi statement is the type of bluster a Coordinator needs for cover if he is to engage in an alliance. Takashi knew full well he was nothing but a paper tiger without Janos against a Federated Suns/Lyran Commonwealth united force. Theodore had to work overtime to give the Combine a chance of surviving another major war with the Suns, partly by making a 2 front invasion difficult (FRR). Janos had to let such statements fly because he equally needed the Combine.
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His choice to go to war ranks among the weirdest decisions
It's weird you think there was any scenario where deposing her doesn't lead to war.
since he was legally fully First Prince. In fact, he was legally the Star League vote for the Federated Commonwealth, though he never demanded it.
Have you ever heard the saying "Possession is nine-tenths of the law"?
Simply landing at the Comstar facility would have given Victor full communication with any entity on planet he wanted to have communication with.
What? An HPG lets you send messages across interstellar distances. It doesn't allow you to override the signal of all communications everywhere Max Headroom style to say what you want. And even if it did, there's the issue of whether he would be believed.
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Treating mercenaries like crap: Takashi’s Death to Mercs, and Liao’s constant mistreatment (less so the company store approach cause that makes ‘sense’).
Mercenaries can augment your fledgling military, shore up your own defenses, train your troops, and a myriad of other functions (including canon fodder!). WITHIN REASON why would you just give up all that?
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The problem with Victor trying to appeal the seizure of the Federated Suns by his Sister has one problem: Katherine had already begun stuffing the important positions with her lackeyes So even if he tries to somehow appeal (legally he still was the 1st Prince as Katherine could not assume said position due to her not having served in the military) the courts coulkd simply say "Nope" because they are in her pocket.
And Focht giving his position to Victor: while it caused a stir at first (and several defections) by the end of 3062 the Com Guards had united behind him (if FM 3067 is to be believed) and the defections stopped. From a pure military sense of thinking Victor was a good choice as he had experience molding diofferent people into a cohesive army and the com Guards come from across the Inner Sphere. It was miore ilogical (as others stated) to not immediately gun for Terra once the Word had seized it. At that point the SDS was down, the Blakist fleet and army were small. Yes it might have cost Comstar dearly but the menace would have been ended here and there. Especially with Terra just waking up again when it comes to it's military production output
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It's weird you think there was any scenario where deposing her doesn't lead to war.
Not really, this has come up on these forums before.
Have you ever heard the saying "Possession is nine-tenths of the law"?
What possession? She was a regent. A regent is not the First Prince. He could relieve her at will, possibly in a public setting like a Star League conference.
What? An HPG lets you send messages across interstellar distances. It doesn't allow you to override the signal of all communications everywhere Max Headroom style to say what you want. And even if it did, there's the issue of whether he would be believed.
When Victor's forces started using the Comguard facility, they were stunned by its raw capability. It was not an HPG alone to say the least, and being able to communicate across planet with perfect pitch clarity really was helpful and unheard of in the Successor States. This was a plot point in one of the novels.
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What possession? She was a regent. A regent is not the First Prince. He could relieve her at will, possibly in a public setting like a Star League conference.
OK, so you haven't heard the saying, I guess. The kind of possession that comes from her butt being seated on the throne.
You are thinking in terms of the letter of the law. The point of that saying is that the letter of the law is often meaningless and unenforceable in the face of people who simply don't care what the law is and have placed themselves in a practical position where they can get what they want in spite of it. She is de facto ruler of the FedCom, if not de jure, and we know that roughly half of the military of the two FedCom halves was willing to fight to keep her there for one reason or another.
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OK, so you haven't heard the saying, I guess. The kind of possession that comes from her butt being seated on the throne.
You are thinking in terms of the letter of the law. The point of that saying is that the letter of the law is often meaningless and unenforceable in the face of people who simply don't care what the law is and have placed themselves in a practical position where they can get what they want in spite of it. She is de facto ruler of the FedCom, if not de jure, and we know that roughly half of the military of the two FedCom halves was willing to fight to keep her there for one reason or another.
It may be my own misimpression, but it is more that House Davion tends to be the most strictly legalistic of the States. In the Combine, the Coordinator is the law regardless of what is written, in the Confederation ditto for the Chancellor. The League has more loopholes than members of Parliament (If all else fails, claim culture), and the Commonwealth is loose by nature.
Note: Lockean rights may override the law in the Suns. There tends to be a system of implied rights in the League as seen with systems having the right of self-determination.
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I tend to dismiss the entire FCCW when discussing bad/stupid decisions in universe because I don't think it's worth bogging down what about be an otherwise intreasting discussion on legitly written IC errors, by focusing on what was, to be blunt, bad writing.
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Minemech's actually correct in this case, had VSD upon his return to the Inner Sphere IMMEDIATELY returned to New Avalon, and landed there with the 10th Lyran guards, graciously thanks Katherine for watching the throne for him in his absence, and then politely said that he has now returned so as regent KSD would have basicly HAD to retreat, she would have had no legal standing to contest Victor and thus had no troops come to her aid. And KSD wasn't stupid eneugh to think she would have had a chance.
Victor never appointed Katherine as regent, but he can dismiss her as regent?
You guys keep using this word "legal" and I am telling you legality doesn't mean shit.
the whole "lol posession is 9 tenths of the law" argument, is just.... wrong, KSD's only claim to new avalon existed because VSD abandoned it.
"Possession is nine-tenths of the law" means that once someone has physical possession of something, it's very hard to get it back if they don't want to give it back without the threat or application of force. Even your "with the 10th Lyran Guards" stipulation is an implied threat of force.
NO ONE would support her. the vast majority of the military would back the rightful first prince
Why? Plenty of people supported her just a year later when the civil war actually kicked off.
Remember at this point Katherine has somehow manipulated public opinion to the point where her taking over from Yvonne was actually a popular move. The populace and even the military don't know what the audience knows about her and her public image is pretty good. There may be some debate about her actions in pulling the Lyran half of the FedCom out in the face of Operation Guerrero, but Guerrero happened because Victor did something morally reprehensible, and then he failed to save the Sarna March, and then he (in your words) abandoned New Avalon and the FedCom as a whole to go fight the Clans, and in a campaign that can very reasonably be argued only directly benefited the Draconis Combine at that.
After all that he swans back in and goes, "OK I'm done taking care of our ancient enemies problems for them, I'm ready to go back to the relatively unimportant work of being First Prince now, something I was arguably doing a piss-poor job at before," and you think everybody is going to be cheering? Sorry, I'm not so sure. I mean, arguably nobody should have supported Katherine pulling the Lyran half of the FedCom out several years earlier if we want to talk about legality, and it seems to have gone off without a hitch.
I agree that a lot of the setup for the FCCW was contrived, most of all the "Katherine is swept into power because Yvonne's poll numbers were bad" thing, a plot device which we can't really characterize as an act of bad decision-making on the part of any character in the universe, aside from maybe Yvonne, and Yvonne barely qualifies as a character anyway. But once Katherine holds power, there's no way things get resolved without shots fired.
Victor's huge mistake was taking his butt off the throne was giving Katherine an opportunity by taking his butt off the throne on New Avalon to go lead TF Bulldog. There was no need for him to do so and there is no reason to think the outcome would have been any different without him. (Hanse should have taught him that just because his middle name was Ian that didn't mean he needed to follow Ian's stupid example.) But after that mistake, while his choices may not be ideal to those of us in the audience with omniscient perspective and the benefit of hindsight, they are understandable.
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Victor never appointed Katherine as regent, but he can dismiss her as regent?
You guys keep using this word "legal" and I am telling you legality doesn't mean shit.
It is not Victor, it is his office that has authority over the office of regent.
Why? Plenty of people supported her just a year later when the civil war actually kicked off.
She was given precious time to cement herself institutionally by in part playing an image of a lawful First Princess (No such office). Victor actually compounded that, as did her presence as the representative of the FC to the Star League. That is why figures like Jackson Davion supported her because they genuinely believed her the lawful ruler.
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by the end of 3062 the Com Guards had united behind him (if FM 3067 is to be believed) and the defections stopped.
I have a hard time calling anything regarding Com Guard loyalty reliable from 3052 until Parrdeau rabbits in 3068. I bet Alessandro Steiner got a bunch of reports from the LIC saying that all the secret Heimdall cells within the government had been eliminated and they weren't stealing guns from him anymore.
Peter had exiled himself and Arthur was widely regarded as a hothead so that left Yvonne.
How was Yvonne the only option? It's a regency, not naming them Prince Imperial (the former disqualifying you from the latter). Ardan Sortek was Prince's Champion, he's your regent by default. Or you could get his cousin Bishop, head of the whole Davion Guards brigade, he's clearly got your trust. If you are dead-set on it being a Davion, you could have gotten a Victoria Davion, a Lee Davion, an Argyle Davion, a Rand-Davion, a Green-Davion, a Halder-Davion, a Sanromea-Davion or any of the other 31 flavors of Davion. You could have appointed the head of the Crucis Lancers, the commandant of the NAIS, Tancred Sandoval, Rainier Wolfgram, Ann Adelmana, Stefan Cooper, James McFarland, or the head of any of your government ministries. Making a horse the regent is a better choice than naming, as you point out, his only viable option for a successor, as regent and disinheriting her in the process.
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Victor never appointed Katherine as regent, but he can dismiss her as regent?
..... well... yeah. or do you think everytime a ruler gets incapicitated and a regent is appointed for them they can't dismiss their regent upon recovery? Like seriously....
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How was Yvonne the only option? It's a regency, not naming them Prince Imperial (the former disqualifying you from the latter). Ardan Sortek was Prince's Champion, he's your regent by default. Or you could get his cousin Bishop, head of the whole Davion Guards brigade, he's clearly got your trust. If you are dead-set on it being a Davion, you could have gotten a Victoria Davion, a Lee Davion, an Argyle Davion, a Rand-Davion, a Green-Davion, a Halder-Davion, a Sanromea-Davion or any of the other 31 flavors of Davion. You could have appointed the head of the Crucis Lancers, the commandant of the NAIS, Tancred Sandoval, Rainier Wolfgram, Ann Adelmana, Stefan Cooper, James McFarland, or the head of any of your government ministries. Making a horse the regent is a better choice than naming, as you point out, his only viable option for a successor, as regent and disinheriting her in the process.
I don't think the writers remembered there's any issue with someone being a regent and remaining in the line of succession, or they expected readers not to remember.
In any case, Yvonne later DID become de facto first prince, with the amusing legal figleaf that she was "regent" for a child she hadn't yet even conceived, which goes to show that once again, nobody really cares about these legalities when it's not expedient to.
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..... well... yeah. or do you think everytime a ruler gets incapicitated and a regent is appointed for them they can't dismiss their regent upon recovery? Like seriously....
You're still not getting it. Katherine was never legally regent to begin with, and yet she sat herself down on the throne and nobody objected, so a legal claim that her non-existent regency is concluded is meaningless.
Katherine wasn't still claiming to just be regent for Victor after Victor got back, or anything else besides Archon-Princess in her own right (or perhaps more accurately in her own might).
If you give something to somebody to hold on to you for a while, you can ask for it back and expect them to give it back. But that doesn't work when the item was stolen in the first place. At least not without your polite request being backed up by force you're prepared to use.
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Anton Marik's revolt.
Unless he was REALLY left to hang by wannabe allies that never showed up when he declared his coup, his actions are quite bad.
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I am going to have to disagree with you on the position of Takashi's position. While on paper his military was larger, it did not have anything resembling the strategic mobility of the Free Worlds League Militia, nor was it near as effective at or in combating combined arms. Both were excellent aerospace powers. The Takashi statement is the type of bluster a Coordinator needs for cover if he is to engage in an alliance. Takashi knew full well he was nothing but a paper tiger without Janos against a Federated Suns/Lyran Commonwealth united force. Theodore had to work overtime to give the Combine a chance of surviving another major war with the Suns, partly by making a 2 front invasion difficult (FRR). Janos had to let such statements fly because he equally needed the Combine.
"On paper", with the FWLM. Lackluster laconism aside...
Yes, I'd tend to concede that there were certains aspects of warfare on which the FWLM was superior to the combine. But many of their short coming were to be mitigated in the coming years, and plans must've already been laid out when the concord was signed... or at least should've been if not for that whole affair with the 'goons. And yes, it is inevitable that any sucessor state facing alone the might of two of their pairs would be apocalyptic.
But again, the FWL had been seriously hurt by it's civil war a decade ago and if I'm not mistaking, they would only end the pacification fallout of Anton's revolt well into the end of the 4th SW. What kind of a stello-political(?) position was the FWL holding in Takashi's eyes at that moment? What kind of perception of strength could the fractious FWL offer to the dragon in the early 3020's?
I wouldn't call it bluster, but more of a reality check. Besides, most probably, everything about the concord had already been discussed between Janos and Subash Indrahar. Only Maximillian's inclusion in the deal was a mistery to the captain-general when the 3 leaders met to iron out the evident problems in the treaty. The deal was sealed and nobody could logically do anything else but sign the darn document.
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What you forget about Katherine's media manipulation: she basically convinced the Fedsuns population that Victor (Hanse's heir) had died out there in the No Mans land (one of the rather man ipulative questions in talk shows was "If Victor is dead wouldn't his sister Katherine be the next logical successor?"). Of course with his triumphant return I don't understand (ilogical reaction of the Fedsuns population) why the FedSuns citizens didn't demand that Katherine step down immediately to make room for her brother who is obvoiusly alive?
Or another ilogical decision: why did Waterly think her Operation Scorpion would actually work? Even if Mori had not betrayed her would the Houses have any fear to not simply take over all HPG stations now that the guardians were actually away? I know fanatics don't think straight but seriously. Even for the Clan OZ's it didn't make sense as the Clans had enough manpower to defeat Comstar's meager uprising forces.
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Trying to claim the First Lord of the Star League after dissolving it.
which would be...all of them.
Any one of the House Lords could have played kingmaker and maybe gotten a break during teh succession wars, by not trying to succeed to the throne. the easiest way to get nearly everyone on your border to leave you alone?
Agreed, and what kind of room were they in that 300 years later the IS managed to come up with "lets vote & rotate" that they couldn't think of this earlier?
Clearly no one passed kindergarten & learned "lets all share" like the rest of us.
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It is a bit of a loop because by making Yvonne regent, she could not become First Prince should he die in the field. That on its own should have caused him to reconsider.
She couldn't anyway having no AFFS background which is a requirement.
The "Logical" thing to do would have been to stay & let Focht/Hohiro/Kai, et all, handle the mission to back up Morgan/Serpent.
I forget if Phelan would have gone or not, but I know he did stay after Victor was leaving so not sure if those 2 could just "swap".
Either way someone like Ardan or another major military player in the FS could have gone as FS representative.
But then we wouldn't have all the illogical Katie shenanigans.
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"Is Terra valuable?"
"No."
Focht and Victor don't know that all Focht's guns and all the engines for Victor's new navy both come from there.
Yeah, I'll never be able to figure that one out. I mean, in the short term of a few months sure, but they had the Shipyards for quite some time still & at some point should have organized a taskforce to boot out the small amount of Wobblies that took Terra.
Heck, I've still never understood how 2 small ships managed to "tie-down" the entire C* fleets at Terra & nearby Ross/Lutyens stations.
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..... well... yeah. or do you think everytime a ruler gets incapicitated and a regent is appointed for them they can't dismiss their regent upon recovery? Like seriously....
If you give something to somebody to hold on to you for a while, you can ask for it back and expect them to give it back. But that doesn't work when the item was stolen in the first place. At least not without your polite request being backed up by force you're prepared to use.
If he went back home w/ the entire AFFS contingent minus what went to save Serpent, and showed up on New Avalon w/ a few RCTs it would have been resolved.
Then again, she didn't take the throne till after he was gone from the IS.
So really the issue is, if he didn't leave, she never would have had any chance to go to New Avalon.
Really though, her going to Katie was just bad writing, she had her future husband to talk to & plenty of AFFS Generals that were NOT in Katie's pocket still.
Now I'm wondering who all was on New Avalon back then.
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If he went back home w/ the entire AFFS contingent minus what went to save Serpent, and showed up on New Avalon w/ a few RCTs it would have been resolved.
Then again, she didn't take the throne till after he was gone from the IS.
So really the issue is, if he didn't leave, she never would have had any chance to go to New Avalon.
Really though, her going to Katie was just bad writing, she had her future husband to talk to & plenty of AFFS Generals that were NOT in Katie's pocket still.
Now I'm wondering who all was on New Avalon back then.
People do irrational things all the time, even very smart and capable people have their blind spots, we have nothing on what Katie and Yvonne's relationship was like before Katie's Coup, and the sourcebooks really only give us bare events, while the novels are all about Victor in that period, with damn near nothing showing the kids growing up or how they related to one another in the interwar years.
There's an old saying about how you can't have Treason without Trust.
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Anton Marik's revolt.
Unless he was REALLY left to hang by wannabe allies that never showed up when he declared his coup, his actions are quite bad.
Max played him like a fiddle. I know people are inclined to write him off because Stackpole wrote him as someone who only existed to demonstrate that Hanse Davion was superior in every way, at one point in the universe they were trying to write him as a clever manipulator. The allies who never showed up were the CCAF, and possibly ComStar. Both were supposedly in his ear.
I don't think the writers remembered there's any issue with someone being a regent and remaining in the line of succession, or they expected readers not to remember.
In any case, Yvonne later DID become de facto first prince, with the amusing legal figleaf that she was "regent" for a child she hadn't yet even conceived, which goes to show that once again, nobody really cares about these legalities when it's not expedient to.
Usually decisions like this make your characters seem like idiots (see: Victor and Focht) but in the case of the FS, saying "the people were too stupid to know" actually works
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No matter how upset you are about your dad, the Kentares Massacre makes no sense. Even setting aside its effect on the Combine's reputation and morale, it required pausing their advance for half a year in order to accomplish nothing of strategic value. And up until then the Combine was winning!
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No matter how upset you are about your dad, the Kentares Massacre makes no sense. Even setting aside its effect on the Combine's reputation and morale, it required pausing their advance for half a year in order to accomplish nothing of strategic value. And up until then the Combine was winning!
Hey now when his Dad can issue "total Atomic annihilation" on Helm just because he couldn't find the SLDF depot there then his son can simply order an antire population exterminated for the death of his father. It runs in the family after all.
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Max played him like a fiddle. I know people are inclined to write him off because Stackpole wrote him as someone who only existed to demonstrate that Hanse Davion was superior in every way, at one point in the universe they were trying to write him as a clever manipulator. The allies who never showed up were the CCAF, and possibly ComStar. Both were supposedly in his ear.
A neglected angle would be that of the Federated Suns, who were destabilizing the League as best they could. I doubt their escapades are going to get much coverage in future print, but while they did cause mischief, given their current coverage I do not think they were as successful as they had hoped to be. Janos was running containment which played a role in why his brother saw him as weaker than he actually was. Anton's Revolt was ultimately the product of MIIO/DMI, the MASK, and ROM working against the League. The Replevin Doctrine was Janos' ultimate ace.
However, I think that there is a consensus that Anton was clearly not a thinker and everyone else saw it but him.
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Personally most illogical decisions in the Battletech universe has real world context. Remember World War One could be perceived as family drama on a global scale and half the wars today are about the poor choices made a century ago.
For me it was the Lyrans hiring the Wolves to attack the Free Worlds League.
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Don't discount the power of opinion polls. We can see their power very clearly ever since the start of the century, especially with a malleable and gullible populace.
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Don't discount the power of opinion polls. We can see their power very clearly ever since the start of the century, especially with a malleable and gullible populace.
especially since "Opinion Polling" is non-scientific and easily manipulated. Slanting the question, limiting the answer on a multiple choice, 'recontexting' to give the answer the sponsoring entity wants, selection sampling manipulation, non-representative sampling, cherry picking results...
Opinion Polling is as much about pushing an agenda using the advertising method known as 'Bandwagon' as it is compiling actual, useful data.
Okay, that's a stretch, compiling actual, useful data is a distant, tertiary purpose compared to creating a desired impression or pushing an agenda.
The idea that people a thousand years from now would still fall for that shit suggests human nature is not particularly malleable, and yes, none of us, is as stupid and gullible as all of us are.
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The issue with the opinion polling plot device isn't that public opinion can be manipulated, it's the idea that public opinion carries enough weight to force a change in the head of state in what is essentially a feudal monarchy.
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The issue with the opinion polling plot device isn't that public opinion can be manipulated, it's the idea that public opinion carries enough weight to force a change in the head of state in what is essentially a feudal monarchy.
Do you know what a Noble or Monarch that nobody obeys is?
a noisy beggar. That's what they are. It's the followers that make dictatorships work, if nobody obeys your orders it doesn't matter who you're related to, where you were born, or what the law says.
Only someone with followers, can be a ruler.
Public obedience, therefore, matters, they don't have to like you, but you're not in charge if they won't do what you tell them to. If enough of the population tells you 'no', then you'll find your soldiers will also tell you 'no'-and they might kill ya in favor of someone who can tell them to do things, and they actually do them.
ask the people of the Jacobite period. there was a King nobody obeyed, and a different king, invited to be the king, (Duke of Orange, from the continental europe) whom enough people obeyed to take the throne and there's some doubt as to how legitimate in LEGAL terms that was-but not in the terms of the most basic thing: People did what the Duke of Orange told them to do, and the stuart monarch couldnt' get enough people to do what HE told them to do.
Thus, why it's not "House of Stuart" on the English Throne today.
Obedience is the mark of legitimacy when you strip off all the cosmetic feel-good-about-yourself rhetoric. If the people won't obey your monarch, supreme leader, emperor, dictator, generalissimo, whatever-they're not going to truly be legitimate.
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A few tasters:
Why did Takashi want to bring Maximilian into his alliance with Janos? It could only be read as him thinking that he was more than the first among equals when he was neither. Maximilian had nothing to offer the two, even from a sympathetic realist perspective and his role in the recent civil war in the League was publicly known.
Cannon fodder. As long as Max could tie up FedSuns troops and keep them shooting something other than Combine mechwarriors, he had value to Takashi.
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For me the most illogical decision was that Janos Marik allied with Kurita (and Liao).
Just look at it:
Davion, Marik and Steiner are (in a broad sense) the most democratic states in the IS.
Kurita and Liao are dictatureships.
So, why should a "democracy ally with a dictatureship?
And second:
Kurita massacred the population of Kentares, a Davion planet.
Kurita nuclear saturation bombed Helm, a Marik Planet.
Yes, in the 1st Succession war they nuclear bombed each other, but those two stand out.
It is a wonder that no-one called out Janos for allying with the murderer of Helm.
Of course we know that Marik and Steiner ahem dont like each other. But those three could tell Kurita and Liao to stop using evil methods (Northwind etc) or the three Houses would ally and curbstomp them. You know, re-introducing the Ares Convention and maybe even going towards the Geneva Conventions.
(And yes, I am looking at the 2nd Kearny with their refusal to accept surrender. Let them think about it when confronted by the Davion Assault Guards, Steiners 1st Royal Guards and a high profile House Marik unit - sorry I cant remember any good hitters of House Marik except the Knights of the Inner Sphere, but they are not of 3025).
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Does Alexander Kerensky count as a leader ?
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(And yes, I am looking at the 2nd Kearny with their refusal to accept surrender. Let them think about it when confronted by the Davion Assault Guards, Steiners 1st Royal Guards and a high profile House Marik unit - sorry I cant remember any good hitters of House Marik except the Knights of the Inner Sphere, but they are not of 3025).
Some well-known good hitters across the Inner Sphere were the 1st Fusiliers of Oriente, the Ducal Guard and the 1st Regulan Hussars. When you get specific to House Marik, things get complicated, so it is better to stick to Free Worlds League Militia units in general. The 2nd Oriente Hussars were likely the best light cavalry regiment in the Inner Sphere but they had competitors even among the FWLM (It is a hard title to hold; this status is not to be confused with the most elite which has different implications).
The 1st Free Worlds Guards were supposed to be among the best, but were having a horrible luck streak in the 31st century. Some of the Marik Militia units, like the 9th, were punching well above their rating, implying bias in the system.
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Does Alexander Kerensky count as a leader ?
Yes, he would qualify, though he might also qualify as a bandit king, failed leader, or outright traitor depending on your point of view.
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Do you know what a Noble or Monarch that nobody obeys is?
This is all irrelevant, because there's no indication anybody was going to stop obeying Yvonne. The preposterously bare-bones, let's-just-gloss-over-this treatment of events we get in canon sources is basically that people didn't particularly like Yvonne or think she was doing a good job (although there's zero info on any specific policies or actions she took people would disagree with) and she was apparently so weak-willed that alone was enough to make her desert her post.
The intent is to show us what a masterful manipulator Katherine is, but it actually just ends up looking bizarre. In general, Stackpole and then Coleman failed pretty completely at showing us why Katherine is supposed to be such a charismatic and effective political operator. Granted, they made things difficult for themselves by letting the audience in on the fact she's a monster really early, but they barely make an effort aside from showing us a couple rather unremarkable speeches she makes, and the rest of the time she's Cruella De Vil.
As an IP which revolves around military conflict (it's kind of right there in the name), BT has never been very good at showing the audience that its supposed Machiavellis are actually capable of brilliant machinations, it tends to just tell us "THIS PERSON IS SO GOOD AT POLITICS" by having things that suit the ostensible political mastermind's interests happen while hand-waving the details. Whether this is because the writers are not good at writing believable political plots or whether they just think their audience would be bored if they tried is open to debate.
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You also have to consider the number of words they can commit to a novel. Sure they could create a chapter devoting to how good an orator Katherine was but then they may have to remove something else. You may disagree but ultimately it is the writer and editor that determine what is in these pages.
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The only times in the novels where we have seen her "manipulations" were when she tried to become the First Lady of the new Star League. Like promising Sun Tzu not to meddle in the St Ives conflict while also convincing Thomas Marik that she can make the St Ives war go on for syears to distract Sun Tzu. Or how she tried to provoke Victor into a temper tantrum to act as the peace maker, making herself the best candidate as the first first Lord / Lady right before the start of Operation Bulldog. Otherwise she only gives speeches or even meddles in military affairs during the civil war.
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There is always the argument that she was genuinely incompetent, and the other Lords played her like a fiddle.
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The only times in the novels where we have seen her "manipulations" were when she tried to become the First Lady of the new Star League.
Right... the only time we see her actually try, she fails.
When she succeeds, we only see the outcome with no depiction of what she actually did.
I bring up the public speeches because those are main/only places where it seems like they're trying to show us how she could have popular support and inspire personal loyalty as opposed to wheeling and dealing with other people in positions of power, but they're underwhelming.
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She is actually a bit of a stock character, the countess who sees herself as duchess or even queen material because she can outplay the lower rung of the nobility. When her weakness is revealed in the slightest sense, she has to fall back to force because she cannot truly outwit others.
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You also have to consider the number of words they can commit to a novel. Sure they could create a chapter devoting to how good an orator Katherine was but then they may have to remove something else. You may disagree but ultimately it is the writer and editor that determine what is in these pages.
Maybe but like the old writing adage says "show don't tell" and they really did a poor job showing us that because the few times they did show us doing what we where told what KSD did best she failed.
EVERY
SINGLE
TIME
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Okay any discussion that involves illogical decisions and Kathrine Davion has to include her plan to go sneak off to the Smoke Jaguar occupation zone and try to set up a secret alliance with them. Accidentally running into Vlad is the only thing that saved her from spending the rest of her life growing turnips on Huntress.
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Okay any discussion that involves illogical decisions and Kathrine Davion has to include her plan to go sneak off to the Smoke Jaguar occupation zone and try to set up a secret alliance with them. Accidentally running into Vlad is the only thing that saved her from spending the rest of her life growing turnips on Huntress.
A strong suggestion, although if Katherine hadn't come up with this brilliant scheme we would never have Alaric Ward as a character, and think what a loss to the universe that would be...
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Gosh, what a tragic thought.
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In 3025, the CCAF was not the sick man of the Inner Sphere that barely survived through the 3030s. They were still mostly considered a first-rate House capable of fighting one of its neighbors on a relatively even footing, just as they had through the 3rd Succession War. They might have been smaller than the AFFS, but bringing the Capellans into an alliance with the Free Worlds meant that ideally Janos Marik could move more troops off the Capellan border and stack them on the Lyran border instead. Likewise, the CCAF could shift more regiments to the FedSuns border -- in both cases, this puts more 'Mechs on the borders of the....
Agreed. Prior to other events, the 4th Succession War was the topic of much debate (at least...to as much a degree as the ancient bulletin boards of the early net could handle....) and much of it was actually very astute and with the same questions. I sometimes wish I had made copies and still miss those days.
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C* had put a lot of stock in the idea that the FWL and Lyrans beef would override any other concerns. I don't think it's an assumption that holds a lot of water considering that's the only border where every war ended in a treaty and commerce had not stopped. But they desperately wanted it to be true.
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Yeah, they're the two sides who basically said "yes, we're going to kill each other, but let's be civil about it."
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C* had put a lot of stock in the idea that the FWL and Lyrans beef would override any other concerns. I don't think it's an assumption that holds a lot of water considering that's the only border where every war ended in a treaty and commerce had not stopped. But they desperately wanted it to be true.
Janos simply seeking an accommodation with the nascent FedCom in some ways seems more plausible to me (or at least like a better option) than the Concord of Kapetyn. As you say, there's no real waving-the-bloody-shirt hatred between the FWL and Lyrans (at least not to the extent there is between, say, the Combine and FedSuns) whereas there were deep grudges both recent and ancient between the FWL and Confederation. The FWL is also much more politically/ideologically similar to the LC and FS than it is to the Combine and Confederation.
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C* had put a lot of stock in the idea that the FWL and Lyrans beef would override any other concerns. I don't think it's an assumption that holds a lot of water considering that's the only border where every war ended in a treaty and commerce had not stopped. But they desperately wanted it to be true.
The League/Lyran warzone came with the understanding that if either power took and held the right worlds, within a century they would be set to be the Inner Sphere superpower. This would be a difficult endeavor for either.
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Agreed. Prior to other events, the 4th Succession War was the topic of much debate (at least...to as much a degree as the ancient bulletin boards of the early net could handle....) and much of it was actually very astute and with the same questions. I sometimes wish I had made copies and still miss those days.
The 3025 Capellan Confederation was adapted by Maximilian to recover and survive well within the norms of the Third, but it still was in horrible shape. The loss of depth meant that critical infrastructure was more vulnerable than for other Successor States, that losses were far more significant, and that victories were more easily made pyrrhic. Within the next two centuries, it was likely that the Confederation would fall to minor power status if it survived.
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Janos simply seeking an accommodation with the nascent FedCom in some ways seems more plausible to me (or at least like a better option) than the Concord of Kapetyn. As you say, there's no real waving-the-bloody-shirt hatred between the FWL and Lyrans (at least not to the extent there is between, say, the Combine and FedSuns) whereas there were deep grudges both recent and ancient between the FWL and Confederation. The FWL is also much more politically/ideologically similar to the LC and FS than it is to the Combine and Confederation.
Have you ever noticed that the kids who throw down and throw hands hardest, are the ones whom are most alike? Siblings will exact a toll on one another that neither will inflict on an outsider. It's the things we see in ourselves, that we often hate most in others (Whether we admit to those things, or not.)
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Have you ever noticed that the kids who throw down and throw hands hardest
Except that canonically, the FWL and the LC didn't "throw hands hardest," as I said.
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Except that canonically, the FWL and the LC didn't "throw hands hardest," as I said.
yet the canon also has material suggesting those two hate one another 'most'.
I"m trying to remember the exact quote, but it's about don't trust a cappie, but shoot a Lyran on sight, or something to that effect. (was it FM FWL?)
point being, lots of things are basically irrational just so that the setting can function as a wargame. The basic nature of the FWL would make it a natural ally of both the Lyrans, and Feddies, yet they are not. The divide, therefore, is likely completely irrational in nature and ingrained, a hatred that makes no sense because it literally makes no sense.
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yet the canon also has material suggesting those two hate one another 'most'.
I"m trying to remember the exact quote, but it's about don't trust a cappie, but shoot a Lyran on sight, or something to that effect. (was it FM FWL?)
point being, lots of things are basically irrational just so that the setting can function as a wargame. The basic nature of the FWL would make it a natural ally of both the Lyrans, and Feddies, yet they are not. The divide, therefore, is likely completely irrational in nature and ingrained, a hatred that makes no sense because it literally makes no sense.
I remember that quote too.
I think the bad blood between the LC and the FWL has something to do with that both states consider themselves more merchant than warrior or so.
So, they try to out-do each other first with normal methods, then the Black and Blacker Ops and in the end you have a blood feud that would make a Sicilian proud - or a Viking.
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The Free Worlds League historically viewed the Commonwealth as an untrustworthy aggressor nation. In fact, Free Worlds League school books pin the start of the First Succession War on the Lyrans due to their invasion of Bolan. This made it easier for Comstar to manipulate Charles Marik into war with the Commonwealth as he genuinely thought they were about to attack.
EDIT: I should note that every war up until the Second Succession War between the two was undeniably due to Lyran aggression. The First Succession War was started due to Lyran intel that ultimately does not add up with what they encountered.
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I am going to go a bit out of character and lay out the Bolan War better. The Bolan War was a security dilemma. Both powers were well aware that a major war was coming, and both were aware of the significance of Bolan. Under the traditional depiction, if the League fleet won a major victory against the Lyrans, the Commonwealth would have become indefensible. The League also knew that the Lyrans were traditional aggressors who just might attack a nearly impossible to defend position. The question was how to make Bolan defensible without igniting a conflict. Security dilemmas often end up in wars even when it is well out of the interests of the related powers. The Bolan War was an example of what one realist coins and named his book The Tragedy of Great Power Politics.
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I'd think the most illogical action by an IS leader wouldn't be something so prone to debate.
Waterly earned that bullet to the face with Operation SCORPION. It was a military operation done without the Precentor Martial's knowledge. Because ComStar itself wasn't ideologically behind the decision. Its scope was far beyond what ComStar forces--already drawn down by Tukayyid--could do. Major powers were already wise to ComStar's untrustworthyness (it's implied the entire operation is an aphrodisiac for Hanse Davion). It hinged on the technologically advanced Clanners still being totally dependent on ComStar for communications. And perhaps worst of all, its operation name relates to the nature of the operation. Maybe your giant betrayal operation to piss off literally everyone shouldn't be named after a child's fable about self-destructive betrayal.
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The Free Worlds League historically viewed the Commonwealth as an untrustworthy aggressor nation. In fact, Free Worlds League school books pin the start of the First Succession War on the Lyrans due to their invasion of Bolan. This made it easier for Comstar to manipulate Charles Marik into war with the Commonwealth as he genuinely thought they were about to attack.
EDIT: I should note that every war up until the Second Succession War between the two was undeniably due to Lyran aggression. The First Succession War was started due to Lyran intel that ultimately does not add up with what they encountered.
I'm not saying that there is no animosity on the border, just that the assumption that it would override all other concerns and single-handedly force the FWL and CC to be friends against the LC and FS doesn't really make sense. Especially given that Oriente and Andurien are both big players in 3025 and neither have had much in the way of positive experiences with the Capellans.
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I'm not saying that there is no animosity on the border, just that the assumption that it would override all other concerns and single-handedly force the FWL and CC to be friends against the LC and FS doesn't really make sense. Especially given that Oriente and Andurien are both big players in 3025 and neither have had much in the way of positive experiences with the Capellans.
I think that bringing the Confederation in is what sank the prospects of an effective alliance. That is not to say that the League had a high view of the Combine either but they could be bargained with. The relationship between the Commonwealth and League is genuinely tragic on many levels but their people do not hate one another which is something. For the Confederation, peoples outside of the state are not part of the greater humanity. For the Combine, xenophobia is the rational state. It is necessary for Battletech that the two not get along since they would theoretically form an unstoppable alliance.
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I'm not saying that there is no animosity on the border, just that the assumption that it would override all other concerns and single-handedly force the FWL and CC to be friends against the LC and FS doesn't really make sense. Especially given that Oriente and Andurien are both big players in 3025 and neither have had much in the way of positive experiences with the Capellans.
honestly the capellan/league love fest that's gone on uninterrupted for so long is truely baffling. I hope the ilclan era finally gives us a league/capellan war
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" Never trust a Capellan but shoot a Lyran on site".
The Korvin doctrine does not state that people outside of the sdtate are inhuman, merely that a strong, centralized governement is all that can effectively unite mankind and lead it to "greatness"...and then the Liao family instated that only they could lead that.
Recent civil war aside, I doubt in 3025 free worlders had so much more animosity for capellans, which they have historically bested at nearly every opportunity, then the Lyrans, with whom they have quite the rivalry and border disputes.
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the problem isn't breif alliances, I mean christ during the 3050s Kurita and Davion where allies after all, the problem is from 3025 to 3145 the league and the cappies are buds, it's a bit hard to belive there's never been flair ups on the border.
I for one hope the truth of Jessica Marik's death comes to light, and Nikol has no CHOICE but to invade the capcon
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the problem isn't breif alliances, I mean christ during the 3050s Kurita and Davion where allies after all, the problem is from 3025 to 3145 the league and the cappies are buds, it's a bit hard to belive there's never been flair ups on the border.
I for one hope the truth of Jessica Marik's death comes to light, and Nikol has no CHOICE but to invade the capcon
There was a hot war in that time period involving the League states and the Confederation. The Victoria War.
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Recent civil war aside, I doubt in 3025 free worlders had so much more animosity for capellans, which they have historically bested at nearly every opportunity, then the Lyrans, with whom they have quite the rivalry and border disputes.
Ah yes, the small matter of that bitter civil war the CapCon was publicly known to have directly engineered.
Not to mention the OTHER civil war which happened because some quarters of the League had enough animosity for the Capellans they thought it was better to finish what Hanse Davion started than have the Confederation as an ally.
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There was a hot war in that time period involving the League states and the Confederation. The Victoria War.
eh maybe but doesn't quite count. I do think that the killer of Jessica Marik should get out. it'd make things kinda uncomfortable for Nikol for a number of reasons, and that discomfort is room for intreasting stories.
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eh maybe but doesn't quite count. I do think that the killer of Jessica Marik should get out. it'd make things kind of uncomfortable for Nikol for a number of reasons, and that discomfort is room for interesting stories.
We need another big five. We need true Successor Lords who set the standard for what follows. The current pieces are Nikol Marik, Julian Davion, Yori Kurita, Danai Liao and Trillian Steiner. Time will tell if they can be molded into such figures. Perhaps their role will be to mold the next big five. The larger question that may ultimately haunt the writers is where are their heirs?
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Ah yes, the small matter of that bitter civil war the CapCon was publicly known to have directly engineered.
Not to mention the OTHER civil war which happened because some quarters of the League had enough animosity for the Capellans they thought it was better to finish what Hanse Davion started than have the Confederation as an ally.
Well, the andurien secession wouldn't be viewed as a civil war by the anduriens. They attacked the Capcon far more out of oppurtunitism then hatred. And while they are, besides perhaps zion province (or whatever the exact name of that province is), those with the least love for the confederation, fact is they are, from what we know, a rather isolated bloc in the federal parliament and not particularly close to the captain-general's inner circle. The other powerfull province on the capellan border being Oriente, which (I might've missed something) never gave the impression of hating the cappies to the point of it rendering them blind (after all, they were one of the big winners in the victorys against the CC), yes, I'd dare say that its quite probable, on a league wide basis, that capellans are no more disliked then lyrans dispite the "similaritys" between the free worlds and the commonwealth.
But I must point out that while the federal governement of the league gives an air of freedom for the people, most of the provincial governements are military dictatorships...somewhat more similar to the cappie way of running things.
Going back to their (tricked) alliance prior to the 4th SW, while it's fair to assume (and it would have been quite illogical) that never Janos would have agreed to an alliance with the capcon had he known, what would have been gained from backing off after having travelled all the way to the conference with Takashi whom had offered a very inticing deal through quite the able diplomat? I mean, Subash Indrahar for the dragon's sake! The deal was done and signing the document besides Maximillian didn't mean he couldn't be simply used as a buffer that can always de weakened through other means then overt war. Bet Janos would rather have a weak Capcon then the Fedsuns on his border.
One way or another the fedcom would be coming for the FWL some day or another. Why would they have been interested in brockering an alliance with the FWL when victory in the succession wars was seamingly at hand?
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Alexander K "leaving" (or giving up and wanting to go die as another post mentioned from his secret personal diaries)
Should have just taken over a far out there pirate kingdom, re-armed and organized with in 50 years, SLDF in full swing comeback
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But I must point out that while the federal governement of the league gives an air of freedom for the people, most of the provincial governements are military dictatorships...somewhat more similar to the cappie way of running things.
This needs quite a bit of qualification. Most transitionary governments from conquests to League rule are military dictatorships, with such governance dropped after a period of time. They rarely stay as such without federal intervention, but those are specifically occupied by the FWLM. They were sharply declining as of 3067 because so few had recently been taken and fewer still had lasted decades. The Clan Protectorate was in part formed because they knew that the Clan form of governance would be anathema to the League. There are some that occur because of coups.
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In the Kapteyn discussion, another thing to remember is that Janos had suffered through a civil war, launched by his closest brother and roping in one of his sons, that was initiated almost directly by Maximillian Liao. Precentor ROM was there to push the pieces around the board, but it was Mad Max who put the bug in Anton's ear that Janos was doing it all wrong and it was Max who put the entirety of Wolf's Dragoons into Anton's order of battle. Janos might have been bothered to do more than the four planetary strikes of Operation DAGGER if Max wasn't poisoning the pot of the alliance. The fact that the Combine needed help didn't matter when Janos personal mortal enemy was also asking for help. It made more sense to do the bare minimum all around and let his enemies destroy each other.
As for the League/Lyran relationship, aside from the quote about shooting Steiners that we've all been bandying about, there's another good example of the simmering boil of this relationship: Janos' reply to Katrina Steiner's peace offer. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it amounted to "You marry one of my sons, the Commonwealth becomes a vassal state of the FWL." He wasn't proposing a merger like Hanse did, he straight up demanded the dissolution of the Lyran state and its incorporation into the League. That's pretty dang harsh.
Additional note: I've long had an idea to write an in-character military treatise on the history and operations of the FWLM though I never really did get any steam under it. But in my initial round of research, one of the biggest factors that jumped out at me was that in every era, every Succession War, the League gained worlds at the expense of the Capellans but had a net loss of worlds at the hands of the Lyrans. Declining to attack a foe you know you can beat is one thing, but allying with other powers against the one neighbor that constantly gives you a beating is actually smart. You know, if you actually follow through on the terms of the alliance.
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This needs quite a bit of qualification. Most transitionary governments from conquests to League rule are military dictatorships, with such governance dropped after a period of time. They rarely stay as such without federal intervention, but those are specifically occupied by the FWLM. They were sharply declining as of 3067 because so few had recently been taken and fewer still had lasted decades. The Clan Protectorate was in part formed because they knew that the Clan form of governance would be anathema to the League. There are some that occur because of coups.
Went to check, Faulty memory indeed. Oligarchies are the most widespread form of governance.
But from what I've (rapidly) checked on, I get the impression that while its uncommon, military dictatorship it is still well represented in provicial politics. As of 3067, the protectorate, which is a bigger player then the majority of other provinces (granted, those are mostly lone star systems), is still a military dictatorship. And as the FWL has gobbled a large swath of the CC and there's been much shifting of borders on the LC border, military dictatorships must have quite the historic in the FWL.
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After reading through the 1st Sucession War book I find John Davions decision to attack a house he had no animosity with quite illogical. What was actually the point of Operation "Brass Ring"? Heck at this point House Steiner had made better military decdision then nthe supposed military competent House Davion (yes I know 1st SC Fed Suns were as competent as Dark Age Fed Suns)
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As for the League/Lyran relationship, aside from the quote about shooting Steiners that we've all been bandying about, there's another good example of the simmering boil of this relationship: Janos' reply to Katrina Steiner's peace offer. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it amounted to "You marry one of my sons, the Commonwealth becomes a vassal state of the FWL." He wasn't proposing a merger like Hanse did, he straight up demanded the dissolution of the Lyran state and its incorporation into the League. That's pretty dang harsh.
It was actually the same thing Hanse had in mind, in this case an heir with a Marik last name on the throne instead of a Davion one. This is why there are arguments in other threads that the peace proposal was a faux act.
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After reading through the 1st Sucession War book I find John Davions decision to attack a house he had no animosity with quite illogical. What was actually the point of Operation "Brass Ring"? Heck at this point House Steiner had made better military decdision then nthe supposed military competent House Davion (yes I know 1st SC Fed Suns were as competent as Dark Age Fed Suns)
I wouldn't say that they had no animosity. John actually MEANT IT when he declared himself First Lord. Since everyone else also declared themselves First Lord, he has beef with everyone.
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It was actually the same thing Hanse had in mind, in this case an heir with a Marik last name on the throne instead of a Davion one. This is why there are arguments in other threads that the peace proposal was a faux act.
except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans) if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way
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except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans) if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way
That was the plan, Melissa would marry Janos' designated heir in an arranged marriage and their heir would hold both thrones. The authors somewhat tried to excuse her action through a monetary policy issue, but even that was a logical proposal.
EDIT: To bring in the logic, in royal politics, the outside party who ascends is the consort, so Thomas Marik would have been the Archon Consort, and their child could ascend to the throne if approved by the Estates General. In the League, Melissa would have become the Duchess of Marik, and be plausibly allowed to be elected as Captain-General in an interesting twist (Which obviously would not happen).
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I wouldn't say that they had no animosity. John actually MEANT IT when he declared himself First Lord. Since everyone else also declared themselves First Lord, he has beef with everyone.
Was there any confirmed explanation other than this put forth for BRASS RING? The Davion Handbook speculates that he wanted an 'indirect' victory over Kurita by triumphing on Hesperus II but even if the AFFS had succeeded what kind of morale boost would have been gained? "Hooray, my soldiers, we did what the snakes couldn't do on some distant planet in another realm! Oh and by the way, our counterattack on Cartago was smashed, the First Prince nearly killed, and we've been ordered to fall back again."
except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans) if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way
Good points, and to many in the FedSuns VSD sure did seem more Lyran than one of their own. I did find it odd, though, that the national map color for the FedCom seems to be the same as the one for the FedSuns. Or was that just out-of-universe?
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Haha, well technically a VSD sits on the throne of the 3rd Star League, and has his sights on Tharkad lol. Katherine's insurance / redundancy plan :grin:
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Was there any confirmed explanation other than this put forth for BRASS RING? The Davion Handbook speculates that he wanted an 'indirect' victory over Kurita by triumphing on Hesperus II but even if the AFFS had succeeded what kind of morale boost would have been gained? "Hooray, my soldiers, we did what the snakes couldn't do on some distant planet in another realm! Oh and by the way, our counterattack on Cartago was smashed, the First Prince nearly killed, and we've been ordered to fall back again."
It would have forced both the Commonwealth and the Combine to react. If it had played out as he desired, they both might have lost far more troops than they had planned to expend there. The League would be the wildcard. It also could have dealt long term damage to the Commonwealth.
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except it wasn't the same thing, it wasn't a Davion on the throne, it was a STEINER-DAVION. the FedCom merger was a merger of EQUALS. In fact the Lyrans came out ahead in the deal in every way measurable. from a dynastic POV, the Heir to the throne was raised on Tharkad, attended school on Tharkad, etc. in all ways that mattered VSD was a STEINER.
Can you find even one time that he's called Victor Steiner? Because he's called Victor Davion all the time, including in FM:ComStar, a report which Victor himself was the overall editor of. Victor was also raised with the hope he would be someone with enough brains to understand more than "shoot" and "gun" and that didn't work out either so maybe he has Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
The Sarna March was brought into the Lyran state. the Lyran Military benifited from Davion tactical exertise (the military hated this but it was a net gain for the Lyrans) if Hanse wanted to quietly conquer the Lyran state he sure went about it an odd way
The Sarna March was Hanse buying himself a PS5 and telling Melissa she could watch him play it. If Hanse was actually going to do something that benefitted the Lyran state, he should have staged a big liberation campaign in Skye and Tamar.
Furthermore, Hanse wasn't patient enough to actually let Katrina's plan of pushing out old officers play out, he just assigned everyone a Davion "advisor" and turned it into a cultural wedge issue. The second it went from "military alliance" to something more, they doomed the plan because now you need to reconcile questions like "what is the basic role of government?" which the two states are so far apart on that they're fundamentally incompatible.
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Actually the Lyrans liberated a lot of planets in 'Operation Götterdämmerung'. And thanks to Frederick Steiner Katrina managed to stop Theodore's counter attack into the underdefended Isle of Skye. The main problem here was of course the formation of the Rasalhague Republic which forced the Lyrans to sacrifice the planets they had payed for in blood years earlier lest they create a new partisan front in their own borders.
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It should be remembered that in the early 31st century, the CCAF, FWLM and LCAF were all seeing improvements in performance.
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Actually the Lyrans liberated a lot of planets in 'Operation Götterdämmerung'.
This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.
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This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.
We always forget the externalities and other conditions that influence the decision making. The CapCon tried to sponsor a coup inside the Fedsuns, and did so via the Hasek-Davion branch of Hanse's over-sized family.
he kinda had to do something about that, the FedSuns looks, at surface, like a monolith, but it's got a history as rife with civil wars as the worst of the Free Worlds League, only those civil wars are family fights...as in fights between members of the Davion family, the FedSuns is less centralized than it might first appear as well-there's only so long Hanse could sit on the Haseks or the Sandovals before they become a threat to his rule.
IOW domestic politics may have had as much to do with the 4th Succession War, as anything Mad Max did, and influenced the war of '39 as well.
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We always forget the externalities and other conditions that influence the decision making. The CapCon tried to sponsor a coup inside the Fedsuns, and did so via the Hasek-Davion branch of Hanse's over-sized family.
he kinda had to do something about that, the FedSuns looks, at surface, like a monolith, but it's got a history as rife with civil wars as the worst of the Free Worlds League, only those civil wars are family fights...as in fights between members of the Davion family, the FedSuns is less centralized than it might first appear as well-there's only so long Hanse could sit on the Haseks or the Sandovals before they become a threat to his rule.
IOW domestic politics may have had as much to do with the 4th Succession War, as anything Mad Max did, and influenced the war of '39 as well.
The CapCon, and by extension Michael, were effectively neutralized by having a Davion agent penetrate the Capellan government and military apparatus at the highest level. If Michael tries to rally support, all Hanse has to do was spill the evidence of Morgan conspiring with the hated Confederation and Michael wouldn't even be able to show his face within his own Capellan March again. As for the Sandovals, the main beef then-Duke Aaron Sandoval had was ignoring the Kurita front to go after the Confederation, so it's spurious to bring them up as a reason why Hanse would choose the Confederation as his target.
Edit: Corrected Michael/Morgan typo
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The CapCon, and by extension Morgan, were effectively neutralized by having a Davion agent penetrate the Capellan government and military apparatus at the highest level. If Morgan tries to rally support, all Hanse has to do was spill the evidence of Morgan conspiring with the hated Confederation and Morgan wouldn't even be able to show his face within his own Capellan March again. As for the Sandovals, the main beef then-Duke Aaron Sandoval had was ignoring the Kurita front to go after the Confederation, so it's spurious to bring them up as a reason why Hanse would choose the Confederation as his target.
Michael*
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Michael*
Thanks
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This is true. Part of why I harp on Hanse choosing to go after the Confederation in the 4th SW being a mistake. The Elsies accomplished a lot basically on their own, imagine if Hanse hadn't passed up the chance to finally wage a coordinate squeeze-play campaign against his and House Steiner's most hated enemy and to seek personal revenge against Max Liao instead.
I do think Hanse needed to go after the Confederation. His intelligence arm had everything in place to make it work. That being said, my only beef with Hanse is that my heart wanted him to go after the Combine instead. Instead of carving apart the CC, a combined invasion of the combine in 3028? I think the Dieron district gets divvied up, and the LC and FS conquer roughly half the Combine. The drawback, as I play that out in my head, is that when the clans invade, the whole corridor is now in the Lyran Commonwealth. The clans would carve up the AFFC, never lose at Wolcott, etc.
So as much as I wish history was different in BattleTech, I can see why it can't be as well. :tongue:
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An invasion of the Draconis Combine would have forced both the Free Worlds League and the Capellan Confederation to go all in. Tragically the cream of the crop of mercenary units were serving the Suns and Commonwealth with the Dragoons having historically constituted an entire front in the 4th.
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Richard Cameron declaring war on the Periphery
Kerensky's Exodus
The War of 3039
The Word of Blake launching the Jihad
The obsession Takashi Kurita had with Wolf's Dragoons
The Wolf's Dragoons allying with Alaric Wolf
Davion's first Invasion into the Taurian Concordat
Case White.
Katherine Steiner Davion's attempt to rule the entire Federated Commonwealth
Devlin Stone's misguided attempts at trying to build a future Star Leauge by making the Republic and the Wolf Empire into a new Hegemony
The multiple rebellions of Skye
Comstar's inability to consider the Word of Blake as a greater threat then the Clans
Whoever decided that Battletech machine guns needed two hundred rounds of ammo per ton....
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Richard Cameron? You mean Ian Cameron right?
And here is one: Kerensky not abdicating as SLDF Commanding General when he was named Regent for Richard. Like running an army this huge plus ruling an empire of the then entire known galaxy? Especially when said regent makes it his goal to ply the star lanes instead of ruling on Terra.
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Richard Cameron? You mean Ian Cameron right?
Both of them?
Ian did so to unify the Star League.
Richard did so to put down the rebellion.
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Richard didn't even start a war with the Periphery. That was all Kerensky's doing. And the Periphery started their Freedom War themselves, the SLDF reacted to it. Richard was just the first Lord at that time
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Just thought of something: Kerensky not going after amaris immediately after reaching a peace agreement with the other Periphery states. Sure he didn't know how potent the remaining defenses were but Amaris fleet was basically gone and the Space defense over Terra was also completly destroyed. While reorganizing the survivng SLDf armies would probably take a lot of time Amaris would also have way less time to form solid defenses.
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I feel like some of this is armchair quarterbacking. "Illogical" means they knew everything they needed to and still made the wrong choice.
I think that Hanse and Katrina were pretty damned close to destroying the Capellan Confederation. Permanently. They leveraged all of their strengths into a war that was designed and--save for ComStar intervention--would have permanently destroyed the Capellan Confederation. Those advantages were fleeting--mole in the CC upper ranks, insane leader, black boxes--and the destruction of the CapCon would have put three great houses under Federation Commonwealth rule.
They could have stymied the Capellans and went all-in on the Combine, but I just don't see the, frankly, functional Draconis Combine state collapsing and yielding as many worlds as the Capellans.
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Devlin Stone's misguided attempts at trying to build a future Star Leauge by making the Republic and the Wolf Empire into a new Hegemony
Stone’s what?
You know the Wolf Empire came after Stone was frozen, right?
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but I just don't see the, frankly, functional Draconis Combine state collapsing and yielding as many worlds as the Capellans.
There was talk of Ardan's front possibly striking as deep as Luthien, but really, I find his forces could have been used better to just take what you needed more than anything..
The entire 39 war targeted more than I thought logical.
Restore the 3025 border, snatch the "southern" 1/2 the Dieron District & maybe pick up the the Spider factory in a Lapida thumb but that would have been plenty.
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There was talk of Ardan's front possibly striking as deep as Luthien, but really, I find his forces could have been used better to just take what you needed more than anything..
The entire 39 war targeted more than I thought logical.
Restore the 3025 border, snatch the "southern" 1/2 the Dieron District & maybe pick up the the Spider factory in a Lapida thumb but that would have been plenty.
Essentially it was 'slice off a bit at a time' or 'smash them into the ground'. Given the assumptions the FC was working from, obviously they felt they could pull off the latter.
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Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.
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Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.
that went beyond illogical and into the realm of abject stupidity
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Harrison Davion continuing to draw down the AFFS in the face of Capellan revanchism and Kuritan invasions eating Tancredi IV and most of the Bryceland and Bremond PDZs.
that went beyond illogical and into the realm of abject stupidity
Totally agree. The fact the Combine continued attacking the Suns even with a supposed 'dove' on Luthien would argue for at least maintaining the AFFS' present force strength. Forget skirmishing in the Draconis Reach, if Harrison wanted longer-term 'peace' with the Combine he ought to have forcibly evicted them from the worlds they'd taken (and, y'know, upheld his duty to his citizens needing liberation).
Heck, unless the Combine publicly renounced its stated intention to rule humanity and actively proved it, any neighbouring ruler should conduct themselves accordingly.
Conspiracy theory: Devlin Stone subtly encouraged Harrison's stupidity hoping it would leave a weakened Suns one day ripe for incorporation into his ROTS. A wacky idea but not the dumbest thing Stone ever did.
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Totally agree. The fact the Combine continued attacking the Suns even with a supposed 'dove' on Luthien would argue for at least maintaining the AFFS' present force strength. Forget skirmishing in the Draconis Reach, if Harrison wanted longer-term 'peace' with the Combine he ought to have forcibly evicted them from the worlds they'd taken (and, y'know, upheld his duty to his citizens needing liberation).
Heck, unless the Combine publicly renounced its stated intention to rule humanity and actively proved it, any neighbouring ruler should conduct themselves accordingly.
Conspiracy theory: Devlin Stone subtly encouraged Harrison's stupidity hoping it would leave a weakened Suns one day ripe for incorporation into his ROTS. A wacky idea but not the dumbest thing Stone ever did.
Well, it's certainly the kind of lunatic plot some BTech rulers would try, but it doesn't fit with what we know; notably, the IC foreword of Objectives FS has David Lear remarking to Stone that "The security of the Federated Suns is in our best interests". And, well, if Harrison was a patsy of Stone, he was a pretty damn bad one considering that Harrison apparently didn't ever tell the Republic what the Victoria War uncovered about the extent of Capellan rearmament (never told anyone in the AFFS command structure, comes to that; and from Julian's commentary in Sword of Sedition apparently went to extensive (and successful) lengths to bury that information); if he had, they wouldn't have been blindsided by it - twice.
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yeaaah Harrison was a weak ruler who clearly put ideology above effectiveness, he was basicly the reverse of Hanse Davion (who was a pragmatic intelligent ruler) the best part about Sword of Damocles is the reveal that Julian Davion seems to be wanting to emulate Hanse, and not his mentor.
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That seems to be symbolic of Fed Suns leaders: whenever a period of peace devolves into a time of war their leaders are caught napping and then make dumb decisions. Just like the Fedsuns after the collapse of the Star League. Though oddly enough in Sword of Sedition Harrison is depicted as someone who can actually see a bigger picture. Might have been the very long and painful learning process. But letting a state that prides itself on the military become even worse then the Lyrans is something to behold
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So... we are agreed? That the single most illogical, stupid decision made by an IS leader was the extended drawdown of the AFFS by Harrison Davion in the interregnum between the jihad and the fall of the HPG network.
BTW, what's the collective name for the conflicts engulfing the Inner Sphere after the HPGs fell? The Fifth Succession War? Certainly seems like it.
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The Clan invasion had the bizarre effect of having Successor Lords claim that they were no longer Successor Lords, making the term dated. Harrison was sadly deep into that mindset.
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That seems to be symbolic of Fed Suns leaders: whenever a period of peace devolves into a time of war their leaders are caught napping and then make dumb decisions. Just like the Fedsuns after the collapse of the Star League. Though oddly enough in Sword of Sedition Harrison is depicted as someone who can actually see a bigger picture. Might have been the very long and painful learning process. But letting a state that prides itself on the military become even worse then the Lyrans is something to behold
The thing is, we're seeing Harrison from the perspective, in Sword of Sedition, of people who don't know he's pretty thoroughly done them over. And, even without looking at other sources, SoS does not paint a very flattering picture of Harrison as far as strategic judgment (he apparently having not been paying attention to the constant Capellan agitation over demanding the "return" of Chesterton) or adeptness at rule (despite his intent to declare Julian his heir, he apparently was doing nothing to actually prepare this, or set things up so that it would be in motion if anything happened to him; I'm not even sure he told anyone aside from Caleb (Aaron Sandoval at least seems to've figured it out for himself)).
It also doesn't paint a positive picture of the AFFS's state of readiness, considering that a strategically critical world dangerously close to the Capellan border, which has been attacked repeatedly within living memory (Kathil) apparently has no, or woefully inadequate numbers of, staff-level engineering officers (the people whose job it is to supervise things like, for e.g., newly-built defensive works being laid out properly) in the garrison thereof. Like, it shows that Julian hasn't neglected any part of his military education, but he shouldn't have needed to intervene to point out - after the concrete had been poured and was mostly set - that a bunker - part of a critical defensive work around a major target - had been positioned out of mutual support range of its flanking bunkers, and as such needed to be torn down and redone in the right place.
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Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)
What we do know is that the Fed suns set aside some military hardware (in SoS Julian mentions how basically every house sret aside perhaps 10% of hardware to the side just to feel safe) but in terms of actual training they fell deep into feudalistic traits while also seeing a rise of social generals something usually only associated with the Commonwealth. Of course even the Republic fell into this trap though perhaps less social generalism but more total disregard for intelligence gathering and drawdown of even elite units. You would think a nation that is the centerpiece of the word "Pax Republicana" keeps a big hammer by the side to enforce said order
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When you look at actions made by the Republic, you have to look at them diachronically. That is, you have to read older actions strictly in the context of their portrayal at the time in real time. The Scorpion Jar and Sword of Sedition did a lot to define the Republic and other powers at the time, but even then, it was relatively undefined and remained malleable. It arguably remained highly malleable to the end as its final portrayal demonstrated.
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My vote would have been Victor not having someone ready to push Katherine down a flight of stairs on Tharkad.
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Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)
The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.
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Maybe the problem was that there have just been so many leaders in the BTU that are insane that he had trouble noticing it.
Seriously, there have been too many characters in Battletech, especially in the Dark Age, that were crazy.
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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.
He already knew, lol. It was why Julian was brought in.
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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison. Dude heard Victor was the Worst Prince and was out to outdo his uncle.
I think that was the plan all along as he couldn't father another child with his beloved wife. And keeping a close eye on Julian and even making him the youngest Prince's champion were probablky all steps to ensure Julian was ready for the job. But as others have mentioned keeping this plan secret also backfired heavily. I thinkl a Federated Suns under Julian's control after Harrisons untimely death wouldn't have taken the beating it got under Caleb. The only thing Calbe did right was the reactivation of the training battalions ensuring that the avaliable talent pool for Mechwarriors expanded
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The fact it took him 30 years to twig to the fact his son wasn't right in the head tells you a lot about Harrison.
Oh, he'd known about Caleb's mental instability for sixteen years by Sword of Sedition (Caleb was diagnosed c. 3118, when he went into AFFS training, per Fortress Republic - Julian remembers meeting Caleb for the first time when he was eleven, so c. 3118, and "shortly before" Caleb went for training, in Sword of Sedition), and that it's not a condition that's going to get better. But, as seems to be typical with Harrison, rather than make a choice between actually getting Caleb help and trying to teach him art of rule, or formally disinheriting him and declaring Julian his heir, he buried uncomfortable facts, waffled, vacillated, and in the end got the worst of both worlds.
Harrison was using the visit to Terra to introduce Julian as at the very least his right hand man and possible replacement. Of yourse not including others into his plans was a major misstep. As you said Aaron who is very capable in seeing the bigger picture had an inkling that Julian was more then just the Prince's champion but other then that no one seemed to see it (well except Gavin I suppose)
I don't disagree that was his intent, but it was very much too little, too late, because Harrison didn't do anything else to make sure Julian was set up to take over if anything happened to him. And if he's starting the process of doing so that late - well, I agree it's in character for Harrison, given his apparent refusal to make a decision unless cornered like a rat in a trap, but it's also a profound abrogation of his responsibilities as a ruler.
What we do know is that the Fed suns set aside some military hardware (in SoS Julian mentions how basically every house sret aside perhaps 10% of hardware to the side just to feel safe) but in terms of actual training they fell deep into feudalistic traits while also seeing a rise of social generals something usually only associated with the Commonwealth.
Not just that, Harrison and Yvonne very deliberately crippled Mechwarrior and aerospace pilot training for the AFFS, per FM 3145;
Raising trained MechWarriors have become a critical issue for the Federated Suns in the last two years. The post-Jihad disarmament saw the Suns slide back towards its pseudo-feudal roots, with the few open ’Mech slots in the AFFS filled mostly by scions of the established MechWarrior families. If your last name was Zibler, Dixon, Watters, or any variation of the March leadership you could be assured training as a MechWarrior, no matter how poor your skill might be. And if neither of your parents was a distinguished warrior, then the chances of receiving a coveted BattleMech assignment were vanishingly low. By the time of the Blackout, the pipeline for new recruits had slowed to a trickle. After Grey Monday, First Prince Harrison’s attempts to keep the peace kept MechWarrior training still constrained. It was only with Caleb Davion’s rise to the throne that academies were encouraged to increase their class sizes to help fill the rapidly expanding AFFS. It was also during Caleb’s reign that the Training Battalions were reestablished, after more than fifty years’ absence.
[...]
The Suns’ aerospace service faces equally grim prospects. Never fully recovered from the Jihad, aerospace training in the AFFS has barely kept pace with the demand
for quality pilots.
As well, we have Harrison - in one of those fits of whimsy, like cozying up to the Ravens, that proved disastrous for the Suns - decommissioning "most" of the federal guard 'Mech forces, which could - if he'd actually given a damn about doing his job properly - have been a good way to maintain reserves of trained mechwarriors and maintain the infrastructure necessary to expand the AFFS at need.
(honestly, I find myself increasingly coming to the view that, while personally reprehensible in many ways and not a good First Prince, Caleb wasn't a particularly bad one either - something that ER 3145 supports, given its description of Caleb's record in command as "competent, if not spectacular" - and mostly just had the bad luck to be in charge when the bill came due for Yvonne and Harrison's incompetence)
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I wouldn't say that Yvonne was incompetent as Operation Matador showed that she was at least willing to wield her military if needed. The problem was probably more her husband who knowingly or unknowingly instigated a civil war in his own March leading to a more independent streak in the March Lords.
But yeah their adherence to Stone's swords to plowshares policy definetly hurt the Suns. Though I think when you say decommisioning of federal Mech rewgiments I think you mean the National Guards of each planet right? I haven't seen a specific notion that line regiments were drawn down during the reign of Yvonne and Harrison. What makes Caleb so bad is that he wrecked the entire command structure of the AFFS. Erik and Julian basically had to begin from scratch (though one could argue that was a blessing in disguise) as Caleb took the AFFS high command with him into the grave. Being a somewhat competent commander doesn't help when your military is crippled on the bureaucratic level
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He already knew, lol. It was why Julian was brought in.
Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.
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Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.
Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.
That brings me to another question: do the Houses actually have some form of pschological tests for the heirs when they become adults or rather when their time draws closer? I can think of a few leaders that should have been disqualified immediately due to their mental state.
Heck that might be the best argument to actually introduce term limits into the IlClan. The Republic had term limits (though only used once because Stone was a special case and Levin had to preside over an ongoing conflict that overshadowed the Republic). The only other states that have actually terms are smaller Periphery states
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Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.
The Estates General ratifies the person the Archon nominates as Archon-Designate. They haven't refused a sitting Archon the nomination, but if there was some kind of deeply dysfunctional relationship between them and the Archon like Alessandro had cultivated, they could. They have more leeway when there's multiple claimants and no nominated successor, then they vote on who is the next Archon. Most recently, Peter Steiner-Davion jumped through this hoop some time between the FCCW sourcebook and Field Manual: Update.
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I wouldn't say that Yvonne was incompetent as Operation Matador showed that she was at least willing to wield her military if needed. The problem was probably more her husband who knowingly or unknowingly instigated a civil war in his own March leading to a more independent streak in the March Lords.
I've got to disagree on MATADOR, because the way Yvonne concluded it - backing down in the face of threats of planetary genocide - effectively declared open season on the FS, considering that the Capellans and Kuritans both are perfectly willing to threaten, and as seen in the Victoria War the Capellans at least are wholly willing to fulfil those threats. Although, es, Tancred's time as Duke of the Draconis March was something of a fiasco (honestly, I don't know why he thought inviting Kuritan troops onto a Draconis March world, in a disaster relief situation he was already handling extremely badly, was a good idea (see: TTS Benet III)).
But yeah their adherence to Stone's swords to plowshares policy definetly hurt the Suns. Though I think when you say decommisioning of federal Mech rewgiments I think you mean the National Guards of each planet right? I haven't seen a specific notion that line regiments were drawn down during the reign of Yvonne and Harrison.
Yes, I mean the National Guard, and it's not just large-scale units. As far as I can tell, none of the federal guard forces in the FS have any BattleMechs left.
What makes Caleb so bad is that he wrecked the entire command structure of the AFFS. Erik and Julian basically had to begin from scratch (though one could argue that was a blessing in disguise) as Caleb took the AFFS high command with him into the grave. Being a somewhat competent commander doesn't help when your military is crippled on the bureaucratic level
However, MANDRAGORA, as outlined, while not a particularly great plan, was an adequate one that would have worked, if not for something that Caleb had no means of predicting (the Ravens' backstabbing). I don't think he really deserves criticism for not seeing a genuine bolt from the blue coming. (and, ultimately, Caleb finally started rebuilding work on the AFFS that should have been done decades before he was born, never mind acceded to the throne, and that he did that is the only reason there's a Federated Suns left)
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Do the Estates General actually have the power to reject a candidate for the throne? I thought they were nothing more then an advisory council for the Archon.
That brings me to another question: do the Houses actually have some form of pschological tests for the heirs when they become adults or rather when their time draws closer? I can think of a few leaders that should have been disqualified immediately due to their mental state.
Heck that might be the best argument to actually introduce term limits into the IlClan. The Republic had term limits (though only used once because Stone was a special case and Levin had to preside over an ongoing conflict that overshadowed the Republic). The only other states that have actually terms are smaller Periphery states
........ Term Limits on.... monarchies? ..... wut?
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........ Term Limits on.... monarchies? ..... wut?
I meant specifically the IlClan which isn't a monarchy but a...oh right, military dictatorship. Never mind then
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I meant specifically the IlClan which isn't a monarchy but a...oh right, military dictatorship. Never mind then
To be fair, the ilKhan is functionally term limited to serve once. The odds of the ilKhan retiring and then coming back seem… extraordinarily low.
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Khans are not military dictators. That sounds odd, but they are not. The Clans are quite modeled after Sparta.
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Because the Clans are a caste-based warrior society, not a military society.
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Khans are not military dictators. That sounds odd, but they are not. The Clans are quite modeled after Sparta.
They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.
Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.
The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination
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They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.
Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.
The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination
You named two examples that are genuinely abominations. The Wolves are essentially a military caste with slaves at the moment (Those the military absolutely needed, and those conquered), and the Falcons need not be described. That said you are right that they are norms in this period.
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They really are. They are in charge until someone kills them or they quit. They are answerable only to more violence, and their power is functionally limitless if nobody can challenge them and beat them in a trial. Lower castes exercise democracy, but their wishes and decisions take back seat to the whims of the khan.
Seth Ward moved an entire nation while abandoning all those who depended on them.
Alaric did it later and abandoned the empire.
Malvina did it with the falcons.
The setting is filled with dictators, let’s not pretend clans aren’t military dictatorships. It’s actually more an exception than norm in the setting for a nation to have anything resembling a choice in their leaders or for those leaders to be accountable in any way besides assassination
"Kratocrat" is the best word to describe them. Though really it's kind of defeating the purpose since the whole reason we have laws and governments is that we DON'T want to just use a system where you kill anyone who disagrees with you.
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Sure took him a long time to act on it, which is even worse. It's not like you're the Lyran Commonwealth and you can tell yourself the Estates General will "definitely" reject him.
No, worse than not acting was the half-arsed nature.
"I know this is a problem, I am going to ready a alternative . . . but the only one I am going to tell is my intel head, for the next decade plus."
I mean, I get why NOT to tell Julian- it is the most logical part of Harrison's lacking plan. BUT there should have been a declaration of succession- I MEAN FRICKING CRYING OUT LOUD! The Davions had a claim to the Star League throne that was stymied b/c it was never written down where it could be seen!
I really think this is a problem with 'modern' authors of BT, just as with heirs, a society based on some form of monarchism has an awareness of the succession & its' importance. The US sort of comes close by general awareness of our temporary king races every 4 years, but it is a whole different beast.
Continuance of government is the only duty governments regularly pursue- for BT national governments, heirs & a clearly delineated line of succession should be pro-forma.
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But enough about how incredibly annoyed I am that Trillian still doesn't have an Archon-Designate...
She doesn't even have to get married or pop out a baby! She can just point at Ludwig! It's the easiest time of any of the five House Lords to name a successor and she hasn't bothered to do it even though her regime is incredibly tenuous!
Sorry, sometimes I get worked up.
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To be fair to Trillian, that would require the writers to remember that she actually exists and is capable of doing stuff. I think it's been at least a decade since that happened.
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Most logical assumption would be that Roderick takes the Commonwealth once Trilian's reign comes to an "unfortunate end".
In terms of ilogical decisions though: the entire League not immediately gunning for the Wolf Empire once they learn from the Dragoons that there is basically no defense left seems rather ilogic for me. While Redemption Rites showed that the solahma can put up spirited defenses most of that is almost a year after the Wolves became IlClan. I know drawing up plans and organizing fleets takes time but considering how weak the empire's defenses were and the other borders were more or less quiet (except the kerfuffle around Bolan) it looks like a wasted opportunity. Then again the Empire's defenses don't look that much stronger now despite the remaining 9 Clusters of mostly green troops
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Most logical assumption would be that Roderick takes the Commonwealth once Trilian's reign comes to an "unfortunate end".
In terms of ilogical decisions though: the entire League not immediately gunning for the Wolf Empire once they learn from the Dragoons that there is basically no defense left seems rather ilogic for me. While Redemption Rites showed that the solahma can put up spirited defenses most of that is almost a year after the Wolves became IlClan. I know drawing up plans and organizing fleets takes time but considering how weak the empire's defenses were and the other borders were more or less quiet (except the kerfuffle around Bolan) it looks like a wasted opportunity. Then again the Empire's defenses don't look that much stronger now despite the remaining 9 Clusters of mostly green troops
If she dies immediately, Roderick would probably be Acting Archon while the EG picks a new Archon, but I don't think it would necessarily be him. There's a lot of branches of the Steiner family and some of them wield a lot of power. And they're more closely related to Trillian than seventh cousin Roderick is, which isn't the factor, but it is a factor.
But the main reason I think it wouldn't be him is that Trillian's whole reign would effectively have no point, if the writer's end goal was "Roderick on the throne." We could have just made Roderick the Archon already. He finished his "I'm not hiding who I am anymore" journey before Melissa died, so the writers easily could have passed the throne to him as her closest living relative, have him be reluctant but accepting the burden of rule because he HAS to. If Trillian just dies and gives the throne back to Roderick, you're getting into shaggy dog territory.
If they had a different relationship dynamic, it might work, but the current status quo doesn't seem like it's catalyzing change in him. Like if Roderick wanted to be really aggressive and Trillian was holding him back, and he either had to learn from her about choosing his battles OR show her he's wrong and grow more assertive, I could see the endgame being him being Archon. But it just seems like an amicable working relationship, without even the underlying tension Peter had when ex-Loyalist Adam was GotA.
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To be fair to Trillian, that would require the writers to remember that she actually exists and is capable of doing stuff. I think it's been at least a decade since that happened.
I’m expecting her desire to keep that “just in case” strategic reserve to pay off. Wolves expand down the old Falcon OZ and knock on lyrans planets or something like that
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Well in terms of acting Roderick seems to be more proactive. Trilian seems to be ok with her realm fragmenting or at the very least doesn't seem to have the desire to take the breakaway states back and rather concentrates on the most important parts. Which in turn leads to more "resentment" from the fiefs that have build up. Of course the most interesting bits will be how these fiefs will act in future or if someof them get the boot. That and I assume we might get a possible cooperation between Nikol and Trilian in dividing the Wolf Empire. Or some Lyran Margrave screws the situation up by trying to take advantage of the situation and the Lyrans piss of the Mariks again
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Well in terms of acting Roderick seems to be more proactive. Trilian seems to be ok with her realm fragmenting or at the very least doesn't seem to have the desire to take the breakaway states back and rather concentrates on the most important parts. Which in turn leads to more "resentment" from the fiefs that have build up. Of course the most interesting bits will be how these fiefs will act in future or if someof them get the boot. That and I assume we might get a possible cooperation between Nikol and Trilian in dividing the Wolf Empire. Or some Lyran Margrave screws the situation up by trying to take advantage of the situation and the Lyrans piss of the Mariks again
Well, Ludwig's already taken full control of the Marik border and he's pushing into Wolf space now that Bolan is back in Lyran hands, so between that and how the LCAF is positioned, it seems like more action against the Wolf Empire beyond "let Ludwig retake Dixie on his own, and we'll let the authors hint that the Lyrans have shaved a few more planets off screen" is her plan. She sent Roderick to Arcturus to meet with Regis so I think she's probably counting on hammering out a political solution there.
I think the states that got a lot of page time are relatively safe for the time being. You don't spill as much ink as they have on the Tamar Pact, AML or Jiyi's Falcons (ESPECIALLY the Pact) just to wipe them out when the timeline moves forward. I do think the ARLC's not going to be around for long, but that's because the writers in TR didn't even bother to pretend Callandre and the Hounds weren't part of the Commonwealth.
But anyway, from a narrative standpoint, while they aren't 100% on the same page, they weren't actively clashing over priorities when we saw them in HotW or anything like that. Overall, passing the throne to Roderick would just make me wonder what the point of all this had even been, since he's still the same character he was when he started going by Steiner again. Maybe that's a commentary on how little face time that Trillian and Roderick have had in recent years?
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I’m half expecting a Lyran General to come back to Trillian and go “have you seen the empire? My [RCT OF WRITER’S CHOICE] just took thirty Empire worlds. They’re practically giving them away.”
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Hopefully the Lyrans will get a spot on the upcoming “iKhans Eyes Only” since we only really saw the response to the recreation of the Tamar Pact. It also show that Trillian is not as irresponsible as we have seen. She could be irresponsible just playing devils advocate.
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At minimum, we better get an explanation for what the Isle of Skye is about. They've been teasing that one for well over a year at this point.
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Well, Ludwig's already taken full control of the Marik border and he's pushing into Wolf space now that Bolan is back in Lyran hands, so between that and how the LCAF is positioned, it seems like more action against the Wolf Empire beyond "let Ludwig retake Dixie on his own, and we'll let the authors hint that the Lyrans have shaved a few more planets off screen" is her plan. She sent Roderick to Arcturus to meet with Regis so I think she's probably counting on hammering out a political solution there.
I think the states that got a lot of page time are relatively safe for the time being. You don't spill as much ink as they have on the Tamar Pact, AML or Jiyi's Falcons (ESPECIALLY the Pact) just to wipe them out when the timeline moves forward. I do think the ARLC's not going to be around for long, but that's because the writers in TR didn't even bother to pretend Callandre and the Hounds weren't part of the Commonwealth.
But anyway, from a narrative standpoint, while they aren't 100% on the same page, they weren't actively clashing over priorities when we saw them in HotW or anything like that. Overall, passing the throne to Roderick would just make me wonder what the point of all this had even been, since he's still the same character he was when he started going by Steiner again. Maybe that's a commentary on how little face time that Trillian and Roderick have had in recent years?
I've theorized that the ARLC and the Tamar pact may be the genisis of new "marches" for the Lyrans.
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I’m half expecting a Lyran General to come back to Trillian and go “have you seen the empire? My [RCT OF WRITER’S CHOICE] just took thirty Empire worlds. They’re practically giving them away.”
Redemption Rites hinted at one Lyran margrave (no name given) actually visitng Wolfs's Dragoons for a possible contract. I would wager that they hinted in return that the Wolf Empire is open for conquest. After all if the Lyrans take on a few worlds and maybe smash one of the defending clusters it makes the job for the Dragoons (and by extension the Mariks) much easier
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Redemption Rites hinted at one Lyran margrave (no name given) actually visitng Wolfs's Dragoons for a possible contract. I would wager that they hinted in return that the Wolf Empire is open for conquest. After all if the Lyrans take on a few worlds and maybe smash one of the defending clusters it makes the job for the Dragoons (and by extension the Mariks) much easier
There's only two Margraves left after the collapse of Arc-Royal Theater, so it's either Ludwig Steiner (who has already moved into Wolf Empire space with the capture of Dixie) or Gareth Dinesen, who is all the way on the other side of the Commonwealth.
I've theorized that the ARLC and the Tamar pact may be the genisis of new "marches" for the Lyrans.
The ARLC has stressed that they're still Lyrans, currently all worlds that used to be in Lyran space and is surrounded by Lyran territory on three sides, so she fits really neatly into the existing structure. Eventually Trillian and Callandre bury the hatchet, Trillian names Callandre as the Margrave of Arc-Royal, which means she continues to have the authority to do whatever she wants but her actions are sanctioned by Tharkad. Metanarratively, it also completes her transition from early career Morgan Kell to late career Morgan Kell, who was also briefly the Margrave of Arc-Royal in 3067. She's moving out of the concerns of "how do I shoot more better?" to "how do I run a government more better?" already and that would formalize the change.
Tamar I think get recognized as an Archonette. Everyone wins with that one; Regis can say that her regime's legitimacy is recognized while Trillian can spin it as a necessary independent action. Unlike the Vesper Marches, the Pact hasn't pulled down any Lyran flags, only Falcon ones. Neither military seems to want to fight each other and declaring an Archonette would put that concern out of everyone's mind and make them at least allies.
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Wasn't Dixie part of the League when the mercenary kerfuffle happened and the Lyrans managed to take the planet? Or am I remembering wrong? Might have to reeread that section again
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There's only two Margraves left after the collapse of Arc-Royal Theater, so it's either Ludwig Steiner (who has already moved into Wolf Empire space with the capture of Dixie) or Gareth Dinesen, who is all the way on the other side of the Commonwealth.
The ARLC has stressed that they're still Lyrans, currently all worlds that used to be in Lyran space and is surrounded by Lyran territory on three sides, so she fits really neatly into the existing structure. Eventually Trillian and Callandre bury the hatchet, Trillian names Callandre as the Margrave of Arc-Royal, which means she continues to have the authority to do whatever she wants but her actions are sanctioned by Tharkad. Metanarratively, it also completes her transition from early career Morgan Kell to late career Morgan Kell, who was also briefly the Margrave of Arc-Royal in 3067. She's moving out of the concerns of "how do I shoot more better?" to "how do I run a government more better?" already and that would formalize the change.
Tamar I think get recognized as an Archonette. Everyone wins with that one; Regis can say that her regime's legitimacy is recognized while Trillian can spin it as a necessary independent action. Unlike the Vesper Marches, the Pact hasn't pulled down any Lyran flags, only Falcon ones. Neither military seems to want to fight each other and declaring an Archonette would put that concern out of everyone's mind and make them at least allies.
right which suggests we're thinking the same things essentially. the Lyran Commonwealth as orginanally presented had effectively 2 marches, the (Original) Tamar Pact, and the Federation of Skye. these regions occasionally cropped up whenever the LC needed to have some narrative internal bickering etc. We all know Skye, but there was also shinnagens from the Tamar pact when the FRR was being formed.
The original Tamar pact is no more, consumed by clan wolf, and Skye is no longer part of the LC. The LC from a narrative POV could really use some "march lords" and while they've tried with some of the rogue archonettes etc formed during the jihad and dark ages etc. IMHO it just hasn't worked because on a narrative level these places and people are just random names. the Tamar pact and the ARLC however as "quasi independant marches" in the LC would be perfect. people'd CARE about them.
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Wasn't Dixie part of the League when the mercenary kerfuffle happened and the Lyrans managed to take the planet? Or am I remembering wrong? Might have to reeread that section again
Dixie was in Wolf space, but the League was planning on trying to take it. You're thinking of Bolan. And yeah, retaking Bolan antagonized the League, but it was still a good move to retake it. Having your people being greeted as liberators plays REALLY well for someone who is so badly in need of more PR victories as Trillian is.
(Also they renamed the Melissa Steiner Memorial Academy to the Jeremy Brett Military Academy so they had it coming).
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the Lyran Commonwealth as orginanally presented had effectively 2 marches, the (Original) Tamar Pact, and the Federation of Skye.
Well, actually three... don't forget the protectorate of Donegal
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Hanse Davion and the Marik body-double scheme was pretty stupid, IMO. The ramifications of Joshua Marik-wannabe being discovered far outweighed just being honest about his condition and his death. Plus, Hanse put the burden of that operation on his son when he died.
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Hanse Davion and the Marik body-double scheme was pretty stupid, IMO. The ramifications of Joshua Marik-wannabe being discovered far outweighed just being honest about his condition and his death. Plus, Hanse put the burden of that operation on his son when he died.
Yah, that was the fox being...not so foxy...like, at all.
One must wonder if his 'sudden' heart attack hadn't been preceded by a low-intensity stroke or three. My stepfather, before he died, suffered several and by the time his heart failed, he could barely speak, but before he got to that point, he definitely started showing behavior changes and issues with his judgment after the first one.
so maybe Hans had a minor stroke that was mild enough it went unnoticed (or was easily concealed) before he made THAT decision.
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Yah, that was the fox being...not so foxy...like, at all.
One must wonder if his 'sudden' heart attack hadn't been preceded by a low-intensity stroke or three. My stepfather, before he died, suffered several and by the time his heart failed, he could barely speak, but before he got to that point, he definitely started showing behavior changes and issues with his judgment after the first one.
so maybe Hans had a minor stroke that was mild enough it went unnoticed (or was easily concealed) before he made THAT decision.
Yup, a medical condition could have explained it. Unfortunately, the decision was played off as a measure to keep the peace and the manufacturing capabilities of the FWL in the fiction. I get it, they needed a catalyst for some IS strife, post Clan-invasion, but it just seems like a poor choice/poor story-telling.
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It is plausible that Hanse had an undiagnosed heart and dental condition that led to ministrokes. It would have to be extremely subtle. It would be odd since he should have had top notch treatment, but he himself may have undervalued its implications if discovered.
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it's more likely the plan was simply one of a dozen Hanse had cooked up and likely would have been scrapped long before reaching fruition. hell it's possiable Hanse wasn't seriously considering it but kept it on the backburner as a possiability and a MIIO agent who championed it managed to push it through
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I got the impression that the Joshua Marik duplicate was a contingency in case Joshua took a turn for the worse and Hanse needed a few days of breathing room to inform Thomas Marik*. In most cases where Joshua might have died, Hanse wouldn't have even needed Gemini(terrible operation name).
I also wonder what Melissa did with the scheme in the year or two she was running things.
Victor just made the rookie mistakes of thinking that since he had a tool he should use it and using a short-term operation as an indefinite-term operation.
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so here's one, not nuked Malvina Hazen and her Mongols, if the Jade Falcons are going to dial things up to 11 every time you so much as resist, you might as well start throwing nukes to resist.
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so here's one, not nuked Malvina Hazen and her Mongols, if the Jade Falcons are going to dial things up to 11 every time you so much as resist, you might as well start throwing nukes to resist.
Or if not using nukes you can always fall back to chemical warfare as Malvina had no qualms of poisoning worlds if they resisted. But the Lyrans were probably "too nice" for that and the Republic...They make Stone a Blake sleeper agent but then he doesn't resort to Blakist tactics? Uh-huh. That's why I kind of miss the alternate timeline where Stone returns and becomes the mad man that leads the Republic on a great Crusade to rebuild his state to it's former glory or even more
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Kat Steiner's power-grab could be viewed as illogical, even though it was quite calculated. IMO, it would've been easier to arrange for her brother's death given his heavy involvement in fighting the Clans. With him out of the way, her political talents would've made it easy for her to take over the entirety of the Fed Commonwealth. The fact that she couldn't see the potential of a civil war was quite short-sighted.
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There's also lots of ways she could have contrived an eligibility to be First Prince, but the fact she didn't have it in the first place really makes me wonder what Hanse and Melissa were thinking. I know it's been said repeatedly how badly thought-out the FedCom government was but... damn, you let your one qualified heir get shot at all the time and you aren't even having your backup do office work for Aunt Lisa?
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There's also lots of ways she could have contrived an eligibility to be First Prince, but the fact she didn't have it in the first place really makes me wonder what Hanse and Melissa were thinking. I know it's been said repeatedly how badly thought-out the FedCom government was but... damn, you let your one qualified heir get shot at all the time and you aren't even having your backup do office work for Aunt Lisa?
I mean we all know the real reason for this is because FASA during this time period basicly didn't seem to read their own sourcebooks. Funny thing is when this inelligibility was pointed out during the writing of the FCCW SB, they just wrote it off with "meh posession is nine tenths of the law" when they could have much more easily written that Hanse amended the consisution to remove the requirement.
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There's also lots of ways she could have contrived an eligibility to be First Prince, but the fact she didn't have it in the first place really makes me wonder what Hanse and Melissa were thinking. I know it's been said repeatedly how badly thought-out the FedCom government was but... damn, you let your one qualified heir get shot at all the time and you aren't even having your backup do office work for Aunt Lisa?
Probably thought that Peter would become the next in line should Victor fall in battle (after all Melissa was still young when Victor became eligable toi actually take the throne of the Fed Com so there might be a precuation right there. If heir 1 falls, take the reign until No 2 is ready). And Melissa was very able to lead the Fed Com through troubled times (until she got blown to bits)
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I mean while we're discussing it, KSD's hatred of all things military always seemed a little weird, while we make a deal about the fedsuns military requirements for the principality, the LC also had a draft, no matter what side she embraced, her COMPLETE lack of anything remotely resmbling military service makes ZERO sense.
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I mean while we're discussing it, KSD's hatred of all things military always seemed a little weird, while we make a deal about the fedsuns military requirements for the principality, the LC also had a draft, no matter what side she embraced, her COMPLETE lack of anything remotely resmbling military service makes ZERO sense.
The role of Archon does not require one to have served in the military. And Katherine is not the only Archon not to have served. Katherine can also loathe the military and still recognize that she requires the military to accomplish her goals. Makes sense to me.
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Archon maybe didn't, but Archon_princess did (pretty sure), so its really weird that they didn't set her down and be like "look, if these Clanners kill victor, and they're killing lots of people right about now, then you're the heir. And the heir requires some military service. We're not putting you in combat, or a MW, or even infantry if you don't want, how about Quartermaster on Tharkad where you'll learn how to make sure that the parties are appropriately supplied with caviar."
Unless they just decided to skip her and make one of the others the heir.
Which may explain why she did what she did.
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I do think Katherine was meant to be skipped and/or married to Kai/Hohiro to get another throne in a future Succession crisis. My fan theory is that Melissa was on to her being DD-A+ but wouldn't have expected an assassination attempt.
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*Looks at the formation of the Republic.*
*to self*: "No, you're better than that."
Okay, my two votes are for Victor's decision to try to lie to *Not-Marik* about his kid dying while under his care, and then replace him with a double for one.
And for two: Victor trying to use Katrina's pet assassin against her.
For the stupid thing with the Marik (or not-Marik) kid; this was just a dumb plot device. Chalk it up to Victor's inexperience, his state of mind, with IIRC; Hanse recently dying, if you want, but it was poor judgment front to back.
Thomas was a famously honourable man and there were bound to be negative consequences for lying to him. It's even plausible that his military aid would have continued as a memorial, after the kid died.
But to double-down on that with a rehash of a failed plot from before the 4th SW...Wow. Just wow.
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As for the Assassin-thing...this was just stupid soap-opera nonsense. It showed a total lack of common sense and Katrina played it out like the straight line it was, Victor lost tons of credibility and gained nothing he couldn't have had from his own means already.
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As an aside...it seems like we're dunking on Victor here a lot. And we are. And he deserves it.
But he's also the leader we have seen the most of through many of the classic novels, so additional exposure gets him that. But he's also a victim of writing and a product of the mind that formed him; Stackpole.
It's not that Victor comes to us as a well-meaning screw-up, but rather as the bag man for a vast collection of unfortunate tropes that pass for motivation, character and plot development.
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Victor suffers heavily from having been Battletech's main protagonist for over a decade and having been featured in a string of novels that were kind of a slump period for the author.
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*Looks at the formation of the Republic.*
*to self*: "No, you're better than that."
Okay, my two votes are for Victor's decision to try to lie to *Not-Marik* about his kid dying while under his care, and then replace him with a double for one.
And for two: Victor trying to use Katrina's pet assassin against her.
For the stupid thing with the Marik (or not-Marik) kid; this was just a dumb plot device. Chalk it up to Victor's inexperience, his state of mind, with IIRC; Hanse recently dying, if you want, but it was poor judgment front to back.
Thomas was a famously honourable man and there were bound to be negative consequences for lying to him. It's even plausible that his military aid would have continued as a memorial, after the kid died.
But to double-down on that with a rehash of a failed plot from before the 4th SW...Wow. Just wow.
Hanse was dead by 5 years at that point. What weighed more on Victors shoulders was the death of his mother and the accusations that flew against him. While he somehow managed to slowly rebuild his image it was not enough. And why did he actually try to emulate his father all of the sudden when all his life before he tried to forge his own path? Inexperience maybe but imho also bad writing. As you said Thomas was honest and unlike Hanse Victor didn't come of as "the devil incarnate" (at least until that point)
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I tbink i will chime in as i just read wolves on the border.
Accepting the crappy story of the dragoons and do not just obliterate them and take their stuff.
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I tbink i will chime in as i just read wolves on the border.
Accepting the crappy story of the dragoons and do not just obliterate them and take their stuff.
obliterating 5 regiments of troops isn't easy, as proven by the draconious combine when they FAILED to do so
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The role of Archon does not require one to have served in the military. And Katherine is not the only Archon not to have served. Katherine can also loathe the military and still recognize that she requires the military to accomplish her goals. Makes sense to me.
Being Archon specifically doesn't, but being Lyran does. Everybody since the Second Succession War has had to do five years. Hanse and Melissa weren't just doing a bad job of preparing their governments for unification, they were also making exceptions to the law specifically for their children. As we know, that's always the best way to train your kid to be a good ruler.
Anyway, has anyone mentioned Victor not revealing his evidence that Katherine killed Melissa even after the war already started? When he runs into Adam, he says he has evidence and Victor refuses to show it to him. In FM: U, we find out that Victor showed Caesar Steiner but Caesar is not sure that he did the same for Peter. You know, the Archon? If you want to talk about illogical decisions that might be the one.
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honestly the whole FCCW is a poorly written mess where FASA ignored their own setting info. It's part of why I've said the clans are some of FASA's best world building, because FASA has useally been semi-consistant with the clans, if the clans where written like the great houses where the refusal war would have kicked off because Urlic Keresnky as Ilclan tried to make his wife khan of the jade falcons or something. (despite clanners not ya know,, marrying etc)
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Anyway, has anyone mentioned Victor not revealing his evidence that Katherine killed Melissa even after the war already started? When he runs into Adam, he says he has evidence and Victor refuses to show it to him. In FM: U, we find out that Victor showed Caesar Steiner but Caesar is not sure that he did the same for Peter. You know, the Archon? If you want to talk about illogical decisions that might be the one.
From the novel it sounded as if Victor didn't have the real smoking gun to convince "outsiders" from the validity of his claims. Yes he mentioned the landsale that financed the assassin for the hit but as Adam stated that could also have been evidence against others. While Victor had everything Starling had collected he had at this point no conclusive evidence. That's why he send Curaitis into an operation to make Katherine think Starling didn't die and made her send agents after them as the final nail in the coffin. And this whole package combined was probably shown to Ceasar Steiner and others as well. Adam himself came to the realization that Victor was at least more believeable when he kept his unit intact instead of taking all their gear and then during the Falcon incursion send part of his army to help Adam defend the Alliance border.
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Showing what he did have is still a better move than using it to reenact Steamed Hams with Victor as Skinner. It wasn't a smoking gun, but saying you have evidence and then not showing it to people is definitely a worse move, since you look like you made up EVERYTHING you have.