Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread

[Croix129]

That's the problem I have with the idea that the ilClan status is something that another Clan could simply come in and take from the Wolves. If that's the case, then why would any of the other Clans even respect that status in the first place? They could all just sit outside the Fortress and wait for the walls to come tumbling down and either take Terra from the Wolves, or wait for the Capellans to do it for them... and to me, that cheapens the concept of the ilClan. The Revival Trials OTP reinforces the idea that it's not about who holds Terra, but about who holds it first, because it reiterates that the sitting Khan of the ilClan becomes ilKhan in perpetuity and is able to name their successor.

Which really strikes at the heart of the ilClan issue. The entire idea was a half-baked one more or less invented by the Jaguars and Falcons to keep the Clans from fighting amongst themselves during the invasion. It's predicated on a "scouts honor" promise that everyone will accept the first clan to get Terra as their perpetual leaders, but that's simply not how Clan society functions. The idea that the Wolves could lose Terra and remain the ilClan is just laughable. At the same time, the idea that the clans would follow the orders of the ravaged and maimed Wolves just because they control Terra is also unlikely. Ultimately, the Wolves' only have power if they can force their fellow clanners to listen to them, not if they control a symbol (irregardless of how important that symbol is).

This is really something I'd love to see CGL explore; can the IlClan continue as the ilClan if they lose Terra? Can a new ilClan rise in that situation? What happens if the ilClan can only hold it if aided by other Clans? Does that fatally weaken the Wolves' authority? Going in this direction, rather then "Wolves restoring the Star League, one planet at a time" is so much more interesting.

[monbvol]

I do have to laugh a bit that, even on a thread the OP created to be the "RotS Megathread", the Republic is still of secondary focus. Just wanted to point that out.

Anyway, trying to bring back the focus a bit, I personally don't think Stone had a secret plan when he went into stasis. From my reading of events, it felt like he did that as a kind of "King Arthur/King in the Mountain" situation; in which the "lost king" would return to save the nation at its darkest hour. Not a "wake me up in 50 years" or "my going into stasis starts the plan to take control of the Inner Sphere", but being a living "back up" plan. Of course, that proved to be a disaster, but I suppose it made sense to a man who was starting to grow senile and believed his own hype.


And to the "Alaric/Clan situation" on Terra, I 100% think the only way the "IKhan" holds onto Terra is through plot armor. There's no other way for his very ravaged and depleted forces to beat the massive number of troops Daoshen will bring down on them. Now, I would love it if CGL would subvert my expectations and have the Wolves booted off Terra by the Cappies, only for say, the Bears, to in turn kick the Liaos off and claim the ilClanship, but not gonna hold my breath. Therefore preserving the era of "ilClan" while keeping things very interesting. Sadly, CGL spent years building up the Wolves' conquest of Terra and assumption of the ilClanship, so I can't see a massive shift in plans being in the cards.

The opening text of FM:3145 does make it pretty clear Stone is freezing himself to stroke his own vanity.  Not a backup plan, not a King Arthur situation, at least not planned purposefully by Stone.

So yeah he had no plan.

But that it turned out that is what actually happened, well that's why I have so many issues with Rock of the Republic and tend to agree as much page space as was devoted, there really needed to be more to tell the story that I believe TPTB wanted to tell.  Too much was left on the editing room floor even by Hour of the Wolf.

As for me I fully expect the Cappies to self destruct at the worst time.  Everything is setup for it and TPTB have a nasty habit of not really subverting expectations.

[tassa_kay]

This is really something I'd love to see CGL explore; can the IlClan continue as the ilClan if they lose Terra? Can a new ilClan rise in that situation? What happens if the ilClan can only hold it if aided by other Clans? Does that fatally weaken the Wolves' authority? Going in this direction, rather then "Wolves restoring the Star League, one planet at a time" is so much more interesting.

I have to disagree. The Clans being self-destructive and cannibalizing each other? That's a Tuesday. The Clans actually being allowed to move forward with fulfilling their purpose for existing and shaking up the status quo? Now that's interesting.

At the same time, the idea that the clans would follow the orders of the ravaged and maimed Wolves just because they control Terra is also unlikely. Ultimately, the Wolves' only have power if they can force their fellow clanners to listen to them, not if they control a symbol (irregardless of how important that symbol is).

I mean, this is actually what's unfolding canonically right now, so this is objectively untrue.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The real question is how you get the Clans to actually do that?

[tassa_kay]

The real question is how you get the Clans to actually do that?

I guess we'll see as the storyline unfolds. But as TPTB have proven time and time again (most recent example: HotW), no matter how many of us hem and haw over how plausible or likely a particular scenario may be, if they want to get from Point A to Point B, they'll get there regardless.

[Croix129]

I have to disagree. The Clans being self-destructive and cannibalizing each other? That's a Tuesday. The Clans actually being allowed to move forward with fulfilling their purpose for existing and shaking up the status quo? Now that's interesting.

Frankly, without plotty shenanigans and handwaving, I just don't see a path for the Clans to unify behind the Wolves and start a conquering spree. Alaric lacks the military strength to impose his will on the other Clans, while the rest of the Clans have little reason to throw their efforts into reconquering the old Hegemony for the IlKhan.

At the very least, Alaric has to stop acting like Nicky Kerensky and start acting like Ian Cameron. His attitude won't win him any favors or loyalty at this rate. Though perhaps Alaric getting his teeth knocked in by the Liaos will teach him a bit of humbleness.

For me at least, the only thing that would really make the Clans interesting again would be a 2nd invasion by the Home clans.

I mean, this is actually what's unfolding canonically right now, so this is objectively untrue.

Which goes into my point about "plotty shenanigans and handwaves". Plus, that 's not entirely accurate. The Clans themselves are still very split, as shown by the rogue Nova Cats in EA and the fault-lines within the Ghost Bears in DD. The actual Clan leaderships aren't exactly rushing to aid Alaric or are taking commands form the Wolves. The Horses have completely rejected Alaric and the Wolves' authority, the Bears appear to want to negotiate the best position possible before fully signing on, and the Ravens seem to be moving on their own (its really hard to tell what they're up to at this point).

Finally, I'd point out that no one is really in a position to launch a coordinated reconquest of the old Hegemony, let alone force a Third Star League: the Bears have decided to start a "short, victorious war" with the Dragons (and we all know how those kinds of wars usually turn out), the Horses have rejected Alaric, and the Ravens are to far away to offer much help.

[Minemech]

 A little Battletech history, it took the McKennas to create the Terran Hegemony.

[Stormlion1]

The IlClan status only lasts as long as the Wolves are a going concern. Taking Terra is all well and good but if a Clan or a Great House decides to wipe the Wolves out what then?

[Croix129]

The IlClan status only lasts as long as the Wolves are a going concern. Taking Terra is all well and good but if a Clan or a Great House decides to wipe the Wolves out what then?

If the Wolves are pushed off Terra (say by the Liaos), then I'd assume their authority is dead. No way the clans would listen to the clan who conquered, then lost Terra. Now, I'm sure the Wolves would loudly disagree, but they wouldn't exactly have a card to play. After all, the vague "ilclan" rules that were written in marker didn't say anything about what happens if the ilClan looses Terra later.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not only would their authority be gone, the Clan itself would be dead.  Even if Alaric lived to retreat off Terra, he'd be left without a place to fall back to.  He'd almost certainly sacrifice the Falcons and Jaguars in order to cover his retreat, and an attempt to return to the Empire is going to show that he's down to just a few remaining planets that the FWL, Dragoons, and possibly LC (assuming the writers remember that the LC is actually capable of taking actions) have yet to reabsorb.  At that point it's hard to see how it ends with anything other than an overwhelming force dropping on him and crushing him.

[Cannonshop]

I do have to laugh a bit that, even on a thread the OP created to be the "RotS Megathread", the Republic is still of secondary focus. Just wanted to point that out.

Anyway, trying to bring back the focus a bit, I personally don't think Stone had a secret plan when he went into stasis. From my reading of events, it felt like he did that as a kind of "King Arthur/King in the Mountain" situation; in which the "lost king" would return to save the nation at its darkest hour. Not a "wake me up in 50 years" or "my going into stasis starts the plan to take control of the Inner Sphere", but being a living "back up" plan. Of course, that proved to be a disaster, but I suppose it made sense to a man who was starting to grow senile and believed his own hype.


And to the "Alaric/Clan situation" on Terra, I 100% think the only way the "IKhan" holds onto Terra is through plot armor. There's no other way for his very ravaged and depleted forces to beat the massive number of troops Daoshen will bring down on them. Now, I would love it if CGL would subvert my expectations and have the Wolves booted off Terra by the Cappies, only for say, the Bears, to in turn kick the Liaos off and claim the ilClanship, but not gonna hold my breath. Therefore preserving the era of "ilClan" while keeping things very interesting. Sadly, CGL spent years building up the Wolves' conquest of Terra and assumption of the ilClanship, so I can't see a massive shift in plans being in the cards.

Your commment on the thread hits closer to the core of the matter than I think people might be comfortable admitting.  The RoTS began as a MacGuffin that really only existed in terms of its relationship to player factions, and it really hasn't evolved past that despite being frocked up to 'full faction status' what, sixteen, seventeen years ago?

The whole thing's been in 'reaction mode' for so long there's no real character to the character for it beyond its relationship to the factions that actually got the ink.

In another thread, I called it a "Janeway problem" because the characterization has been nothing except inconsistent, when it's not being outright passive.

and it got the single worst defense plan in Battletech for the 'swan song'.

but, thankfully for those who would LIKE to see the Republic remain a faction, said destruction wasn't total...but what's the move?

Here's what I'd love to see, and know I won't.  Stone blew it on the defense of Terra, okay.  That's established, it's not going to become UN-established.

but...

bear with me here, because this is screwed up and it isn't going to happen, but it would be amazing if it did...

They wage a competent insurgency and make life hell for the occupiers.

by 'competent', I mean the Republic's outlying, surviving units, the guys they deployed and so on, instead of rushing off to sell their virtue to whomever happens to be handy, they come together in the systems the Clan hasn't taken yet, and organize a counter-offensive waged using asymmetrical attacks on things Alaric needs-like his jumpships.  They bottle him up in the Terran system and cut off his resupply and kill his men every time they come out in less than Galaxy strength to the systems outside Terra, and for surface garrisons ON terra, it becomes habit that no Wolf goes out alone-because going out alone gets you murdered.

THAT is what I would love.  I could support a Republic of the Sphere whose people have jsut...had enough of this shit, are tired of being someone else's occupied territory, sick of being the football, and ready, and willing, to make Cappies say 'That's ****** up man, even we don't do that!!"

we're not gonna see it, of course.  But that's what I think would be awesome enough.

Maybe.

[tassa_kay]

Frankly, without plotty shenanigans and handwaving, I just don't see a path for the Clans to unify behind the Wolves and start a conquering spree. Alaric lacks the military strength to impose his will on the other Clans, while the rest of the Clans have little reason to throw their efforts into reconquering the old Hegemony for the IlKhan.

I can totally understand that it looks that way on paper, but I'm willing to give TPTB a chance to show us what they've got in store and let this play out... and honestly, as long as what comes next makes logical sense and doesn't feel like an asspull, that's good enough for me.

[quoteAt the very least, Alaric has to stop acting like Nicky Kerensky and start acting like Ian Cameron. His attitude won't win him any favors or loyalty at this rate. Though perhaps Alaric getting his teeth knocked in by the Liaos will teach him a bit of humbleness.[/quote]

TOTALLY agree. Alaric is the product of Victor and Katherine's genes. I want to see a truly strategic, political, flexible, calculating mind at work here showing whatever face he needs to show to whoever he's dealing with to get what he wants, and not just be some blowhard Clanner caricature.

For me at least, the only thing that would really make the Clans interesting again would be a 2nd invasion by the Home clans.

This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.

I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.

Which goes into my point about "plotty shenanigans and handwaves". Plus, that 's not entirely accurate. The Clans themselves are still very split, as shown by the rogue Nova Cats in EA and the fault-lines within the Ghost Bears in DD. The actual Clan leaderships aren't exactly rushing to aid Alaric or are taking commands form the Wolves. The Horses have completely rejected Alaric and the Wolves' authority, the Bears appear to want to negotiate the best position possible before fully signing on, and the Ravens seem to be moving on their own (its really hard to tell what they're up to at this point).

Finally, I'd point out that no one is really in a position to launch a coordinated reconquest of the old Hegemony, let alone force a Third Star League: the Bears have decided to start a "short, victorious war" with the Dragons (and we all know how those kinds of wars usually turn out), the Horses have rejected Alaric, and the Ravens are to far away to offer much help.

Oh, no, of course you're right. The Horses alone making such a public break in front of the other Clans was a Big Deal as it was, and now they have an aggressive new Khan calling the shots, though their new novel seems to indicate that they're not going to be hostile to Alaric now but still won't acknowledge him. The Ravens are moving in support of Alaric (the Star League, to be specific) per the story in Shrapnel, the Bears literally jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by invading a DracCom that's bounced back from their own war with the FedSuns... that can't end well for them.

I think the best chance this new Star League would've had is if TPTB had embraced further balkanization of the Inner Sphere, which would've at least given the Clans a chance to come together and take advantage of that. For example, I think they should've split the Combine up between Yori/Toranaga and Emi/Katana/Nova Cats instead of just letting one side crush the other. I think the FedSuns should've split up amongst its Marches after the death of Harrison Davion, maybe have Caleb do something to earn his crazy name like trying to assert leadership over the Haseks and Sandovals, letting the Haseks fight the CapCon and the Sandovals taking advantage of the Combine civil war. Hell, maybe we see some of the Lyrans actually decide to recognize Alaric as Katherine's heir (but they have to call him ArKhan Alaric).

To be more on-topic with the thread, as crazy as this would be to even think about, I think it would've been awesome if the writers had used the Fidelis to bridge Alaric and Devlin Stone and had them create this new Star League together. I mean, we've seen several Clan/Spheroid merger states now, and the Republic was created that way, so why the hell not? If the Republic's doomed anyway, why not let its legacy live on with the victor? Imagine Tara Campbell leading a legitimate Royal Black Watch for this new Star League.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive").  The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.

[tassa_kay]

I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive").  The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.

You make some good points. Hell, Devlin Stone made it patently clear that conquering and ruling are two different things in his deathbed dress-down of Alaric, and I personally think he was an absolute MORON to reject the RasDom because the results were too close for his liking. I'd even call it self-destructive. And I absolutely think it makes the unlikelihood of this new Star League growing or even surviving that much more unlikely without some sort of asspull.

[Cannonshop]

I'm fine with Alaric not having the political skills of Victor or Katherine (and honestly neither of them were ever that impressive when it came to stuff that was shown while they were doing it instead of the audience just being told "they did this thing and it was very impressive").  The Clans' belief in genetic superiority has always been magical thinking, and let's face it, Katherine was actually quite incompetent when it came to actually ruling.

Both of them were.  Incompetent at ruling, that is.  Victor thought he could rule from the seat of a battlemech on the front lines, Katherine thought she...was smart at anything EXCEPT chasing power.

that is, she didn't have the intelligence to actually USE it, she could only pursue it.

Victor lacked the ability to use it, AND to pursue it.

But that's what, 3062-3084?

The flaw here, is not Victor or Katherine, it's Alaric and the Republic.

or rather, the amount of force used to make Alaric the Conqueror of the Republic.

not military force, but force as applied to plots and circumstances from outside.

God power, aka the power of the Editorial Direction, which turned what ought to have been an epic struggle between equals, into a wallowing one-sided mess to glorify one, inbred, scion of Steiner and Davion.

but maybe Epic can be SAVED...the problem being that such salvation will have to come from ceasing to flinch and force, and pursuing the rule of natural consequences.

When your overlord is outnumbered a thousand to one, a conquered people don't stay conquered for long.

When the Germans bombed london into rubble, the British were not cowed.  It took a god (Literally a diety) to make Japan surrender-and that's after two atomic bombings.  Schoolchildren were making spears to fight tanks.  The SEATO allies bombed so much of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos that people are still bumping into live ordnance over fifty years after it was dropped-notably the USA does not influence Vietnam.

Atrocity has one of two outcomes-the one the war criminal hopes for, where the will of the people to resist is broken, and the one that has somewhat more history behind it, in which their will to resist deepens and stiffens and becomes more resilient.  The Warsaw Uprising is an example of the second.

I fear we're not going to get that.  Instead they're going to redistribute assets to the factions they didn't kill and leave the Republic dead, because it's not convenient.

That is, after all, largely how they handled the entirety of the Clan Invasion.

but here's a thought for y'all...

Wars are not won on the field of combat. Battles are, but those are only ever part of the story. To win a war you need to break the enemy's resolve, to force him to accept defeat. Otherwise the war will never end. Too many conflicts persist because battles are won but the hearts and minds of the people are not. Winning involves every level of society, from the generals and politicians to the shop girls and street cleaners. The infantryman with his rifle may be the blunt weapon used to win this fight, but he is neither the instigator nor the concluder.   ”
    — Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, 3058

[BrianDavion]

why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?

neither of those two seems very intreasting

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.

I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.

I would love nothing more than to finally have SUCCESSFUL Clan invasion where Home Clans conquer the Inner Sphere, demolish all Successor States, rain righteous fire on dezgra Periphery nations who bit the hand that fed them all those centuries and to finally restore the Star League in all it's glory

And I would be the first one to sacrifice Scorpion Empire (AKA my favorite faction) in order to see it happen

But we all know that's NOT how things would go down (it would also make all those "get focht" memes on 4chan and Tukkayid videos on YouTube obsolete, oh humanity!!!)

What would happen is that Clans would invade, be little successfull at first but plucky Spheroids would fight valiantly against invaders while rest of the Inner Sphere would unite and challenge the invading Clans to a proxy battle for some obscure planet (let's call it Trapezoid) for the right to delay invasion for 17 years which they would win and use that time to restore the Star League in name in order to spite the Clans and organize operations Rottweiler and Viper to destroy Star Adders and invade Homeworlds and challenge other Clans on Strana Mechty to force them to stop invasion in a Great Denial which they would win after which Wars of Absorption would wreck the Kerensky Cluster

Predictable, tropy, boring and already done once before

Anything other than that would send fandom in complete meltdown

Also, invading Inner Sphere via Scorpion Empire is opposite of surprise, it's advertising it in advance

The moment Scorpions get a whif of home Clans they will be picking up the phone and calling Sea Foxes while they start blasting Hommies away in a war which they spent 70 years getting ready for

Had Adders tried with Hansa 70 years ago Diamond Sharks would have spotted them immediately and blown a whistle over HPG to entire Inner Sphere

Only way to invade without warning is the old way straight through RasDom, shortest route and HPGs in Inner Sphere are down now (obviously it would also fail miserably which is why it won't be and shouldn't be happening)

And lastly technological parity between Home Clans and Inner Sphere has been achieved so they wouldn't even have that


Star Adders are amazing faction but if they get saddled with being dollar store Smoke Jaguars they will stop being amazing so it's better to focus on current storyline and let home clans evolve into unique factions with their own interests, new backstories and motivations before reintroducing them into the setting properly

[Church14]

why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?

neither of those two seems very intreasting

As much as I’d love to see CCAF cripple the Terran wolves beyond recovery or to see what fun a war of the ilKhan’s could be, Daoshen doesn’t have what it takes to take Terra. Conversely, Alaric doesn’t have the materials to soundly smash the CCAF and make an invasion of Terra a lost dream for Daoshen. Not whil defending from every potential threat.

I’d like to see Wolves take enough casualties that they are forced to cooperate. So the wolves actually acknowledge they need the other clans. Be forced to make concessions in order to turn the current faux league (which is basically just Wolf) into an actual league. Go from Alaric’s seeming desire of wolves treated as untouchable gods to wolves as first among equals. Ones whose supremacy isn’t guaranteed, but has to keep being earned.

For on topic and where the Republic fits? Have them rally somewhere. There’s like… 12+ triarii/Principes/Hastati/fides units unaccounted for. Add in that the era suffers from lack of pilots, not hardware. Have a prison break of a hell of a lot of the surrendered RAF off Terra. In a flash, you have a military back that is strong enough to cause the clan league a hell of a lot of problems. Nowhere near defeating the league, but enough concentrated force in one small area to make it too costly to fight them.

[Cannonshop]

why are we assuming that the answer is eaither "swift and decisive wolf victory" or "equally swift defeat"?

neither of those two seems very intreasting

I don't know about you, but my "Wish" (because it ain't gonna happen) is for a long, grinding, vicious insurgency that creates lots of opportunity for heroism (and horror) on all sides and doesnt telegraph final victory in the opening bout.

because IMNSHO that opening bout sucked ass.

[Croix129]

I can totally understand that it looks that way on paper, but I'm willing to give TPTB a chance to show us what they've got in store and let this play out... and honestly, as long as what comes next makes logical sense and doesn't feel like an asspull, that's good enough for me.

I'm willing to give them a chance, but I am a bit nervous after the major disappointment that was Dominions Divided. Now, if IlKhan's Eyes Only swings back toward Tamar Rising or EA, I'll be a happy camper.

This has always been my wish, even without my beloved Blood Spirits and with the hated Star Adders leading the way. I honestly would love to see what the Adders could do now that they've finally got the reins of power and have had 70ish years to shepherd the other Home Clans while they rebuild and prepare.

I'm actually salty that TPTB never followed through on the Home Clans' invasion of the Hansa, and would love to see them come to blows with the Scorpion Empire. They'd kinda have to in order to prosecute an invasion of the Inner Sphere, otherwise the Scorpions would likely warn the Clans via the Sharks (since they now have a line of mobile HPGs stretching from the Empire to their new enclave in the Chaine Cluster.

TOTALLY AGREE!!! Even if its not setting up a second invasion, I'd love to read about what the Home Clans have gotten up to these past 70 years. Like a new campaign between the Scorpions and the Home clans, either with the Empire invading the Homeworlds or the Clans trying to wipe out the "tainted" scorps. Though I'd hate to see the Scorpions vanish, sense they're basically my favorite Clan at this point. But I'd obviously love to see Invasion 2.0. It would shake up the Inner Sphere in a way not seen sense the start of the blackout, if not all the way back to the first invasion.

Not to mention, a 2nd invasion would be about the only thing that truly unites the disparate IS clans. After all, to the Home clans, they are all "tainted" and should be wiped out. So a 2nd invasion is a true existential threat to the IS clans. Hell, come to think of it, a true second invasion might be enough to forge a new Star League that includes at least a few of the Great Houses as well. Plus, the "ilClan" era would be the best time to invade; the "tainted" clans have now polluted Holy Terra itself, so all must be cleansed.

Oh, no, of course you're right. The Horses alone making such a public break in front of the other Clans was a Big Deal as it was, and now they have an aggressive new Khan calling the shots, though their new novel seems to indicate that they're not going to be hostile to Alaric now but still won't acknowledge him. The Ravens are moving in support of Alaric (the Star League, to be specific) per the story in Shrapnel, the Bears literally jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by invading a DracCom that's bounced back from their own war with the FedSuns... that can't end well for them.

Yeah the Horses are likely gonna be busy grabbing as much of the Falcon OZ as possible for a good little bit. But, if they can grab enough rimward territory to put then near Terra, I get the feeling they'll make an attempt. Of course, that would put them under threat from the Bears, if/when their own war with the Combine ends. Although, who knows how ravaged their Touman will be by the end of that war. Personally, I wonder if the Combine could thread the needle and appear as the lesser evil to a large amount of the Dominion's population in the face of the ilClan. If that happens, both the Bears and the Prince are in a very bad position.

As to the Ravens, I'm still not totally sure what they're doing. We know that they're started patching their units with the old Cameron star, but whether their operating under orders from Alaric or moving on their own is unknown. I mean, its pretty simple to toss on a Cameron Star as a smokescreen to any questionable actions. With that, the Ravens can claim that any of their actions against FedSuns or the Dragons are "in the name of the ilClan", not simply opportunistic grab for themselves.

I think the best chance this new Star League would've had is if TPTB had embraced further balkanization of the Inner Sphere, which would've at least given the Clans a chance to come together and take advantage of that. For example, I think they should've split the Combine up between Yori/Toranaga and Emi/Katana/Nova Cats instead of just letting one side crush the other. I think the FedSuns should've split up amongst its Marches after the death of Harrison Davion, maybe have Caleb do something to earn his crazy name like trying to assert leadership over the Haseks and Sandovals, letting the Haseks fight the CapCon and the Sandovals taking advantage of the Combine civil war. Hell, maybe we see some of the Lyrans actually decide to recognize Alaric as Katherine's heir (but they have to call him ArKhan Alaric).

Again, totally agree. For me, the lack of balkanization in the Dark Age was a real loss of opportunity. I mean, the fall of the HPG network basically pushed the majority of the IS states to their breaking point, yet all remained intact? I'm not saying they all had to fall, but at the very least having some of the more independence minded provinces breakaway would have been very believable!

Like you said, de-facto split of the Combine would definitely work (I mean, it was done to the FWL in Empires Aflame), and at the very least the Azami Brotherhood could have been carved off. And the FedSuns are tailor made to balkanize (sense the Marches are basically ran as autonomous federal states under their own dynasties)! I'd go so far as to say the poor governance of Melissa and Trillian should lead to a de-facto collapse of the Lyran commonwealth in the model of the Holy Roman Empire; dozens of small states becoming de-facto independent while still nominally sharing a few institutions with the Steiners.

To be more on-topic with the thread, as crazy as this would be to even think about, I think it would've been awesome if the writers had used the Fidelis to bridge Alaric and Devlin Stone and had them create this new Star League together. I mean, we've seen several Clan/Spheroid merger states now, and the Republic was created that way, so why the hell not? If the Republic's doomed anyway, why not let its legacy live on with the victor? Imagine Tara Campbell leading a legitimate Royal Black Watch for this new Star League.

From what I remember, there was a plan pretty similar in consideration years back. Ben H. Rome mentioned the original plans for starting the ilClan era on his blog back in 2018, and a lot of it involved a merge between the Republic and the Wolves, with Stone ending up as the "Cameron" to Alaric's "Kerensky". The entries are a pretty interesting read, if you haven't seen them before.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Quick question for you good Republicans.

IlClan mentions the Melbourne Militia in Australia, It's a battalion of vehicles & infantry, no 'Mechs. I'm planning on using up a bunch of my remaining MW:DA vehicles that size well to BT to reproduce this, living in Melbourne, Australia, as I do.

Current plans is three companies, each with platoons of battle armour, recon vehicles, and something heavier, and possibly an HQ unit. Oh, and a platoon of Urbies (they barely count as 'Mechs) in the blue, yellow & red MFP scheme from the original "Mad Max".

The question is, would these guys (other than the Urbies) be in Republic Standing Guard colours, or something else?

Any advice welcomed! Thanks in advance.

RAF colors would make sense since its militia, and that would save you a lot of time since they'ed already be done up in them.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)

[mikecj]

TAG'd

[Croix129]

OK, a thought more related to RotS; would the Republic have stood more of a chance of Stone had realized his plan to break the power of the nobility and move toward a more "democratic" system was doomed to failure, and instead decided to found a dynasty? I can't help but think a more "traditional" RotS would have been able to last a bit longer with institutional loyalty toward a Stone dynasty, rather then the much more vague Republican "ideals" of canon.

[Cannonshop]

OK, a thought more related to RotS; would the Republic have stood more of a chance of Stone had realized his plan to break the power of the nobility and move toward a more "democratic" system was doomed to failure, and instead decided to found a dynasty? I can't help but think a more "traditional" RotS would have been able to last a bit longer with institutional loyalty toward a Stone dynasty, rather then the much more vague Republican "ideals" of canon.

Stellar Geography says no.  Have you ever played Risk^(tm)?  Okay, now the sizes are different, but have you ever been able to hold on to Asia?

Yeah, that's where the Republic of The Sphere is-it's bordered on all sides by people who'd really rather have those planets rather than leaving them alone-and there's no 'safe' border, not really.

Stone's objective wasn't doomed, his methodology was.  The relocations of population (ala Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia post WWII), and his methods to 'break' a nobility were both failures-but not because he was trying to break the nobility, so much as he failed to break the influence and power of the Nobility (see: the entire storyline relating to Jacob Bannson, whose entire motivation was to become part of the Nobility because just being Elon Musk wasn't good enough for him!)

it wasn't how Stone designed it, iow, it was how he implemented his ideas that doomed the Republic...and it wasn't a total failure, or he wouldn't have even been able to use a cult of personality to stiffen them and keep things going.

The flaw was in execution, not design.  One might say that what Stone failed to grasp, was that the means used to achieve them, decides what Ends you're going to end up dealing with.

A Dynasty wouldn't have helped.  A bit more attention to building for successors might-for example contingency planning to maintain law and order in the event of a loss of primary communications, a bit more awareness that simply sitting on feuds and grievances isn't going to make them go away, and a clearer path of elevation that might keep ambitious people who are also dangerously intelligent 'on side' instead of spurned and offended could have maybe prevented half the civil wars that broke out as soon as the HPG's stopped working.

I use Bannson as the example, because he's the one example of a mess that could've been prevented by NOT giving so much goodies to the Nobility, or, by making the path into that class something nonexclusive (which would've actually BROKEN the Nobility-if any nuevo-riche can buy a lordship, lordships stop being seen by commoners as actually important!  Do you know what a Noble without followers is? A noisy beggar.)

[worktroll]

RAF colors would make sense since its militia, and that would save you a lot of time since they'ed already be done up in them.

Thanks for that, thought I'd been drowned in the other conversation! :D

[Minemech]

 The Republic was in a tight spot because it really could not make Bannson a Knight. Successful non-military people could become Knights, but the Republic did so more in the public service sense. The Confederation was similarly not stupid but played him for what he was worth. What Daoshen pulled on Bannson, intended or unintended, was truly cruel.

[Metallgewitter]

Stone's objective wasn't doomed, his methodology was.  The relocations of population (ala Marshall Tito in Yugoslavia post WWII), and his methods to 'break' a nobility were both failures-but not because he was trying to break the nobility, so much as he failed to break the influence and power of the Nobility (see: the entire storyline relating to Jacob Bannson, whose entire motivation was to become part of the Nobility because just being Elon Musk wasn't good enough for him!)

it wasn't how Stone designed it, iow, it was how he implemented his ideas that doomed the Republic...and it wasn't a total failure, or he wouldn't have even been able to use a cult of personality to stiffen them and keep things going.

The flaw was in execution, not design.  One might say that what Stone failed to grasp, was that the means used to achieve them, decides what Ends you're going to end up dealing with.

Not to mention the decade long conspiracy by the nobles to influence the high echolons of the Republic. It was within the system but it was a planned take over. And they did it by simply "buying" people or rather by sponsoring them which in turn bound them to the nobles. Just imagine if a couple of Paladins owe allegance to the senators. Now they have real power as the senate was more of a advisory body then a ruling body.  Something that now has radically changed for the current ilclan period. Most nobles are now powerless so we might see a complete shift of systems.

[Geg]

So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)

I sympathize with this feeling, but it's not going to happen until we know what Alaric's conquest of Terra means for the setting.  The the Tamar, Empire Dominions threads all had pages and pages of speculation devoted towards how what happened on Terra would impact those slices of the pie.


- What's going to happen to Jonah Levin?  If he survives, I feel like he'll be brought into the ilClan.

- Various merc units or insurgent groups related to the Republic. - ExRAF Mercs absolutely.   Armed RAF rebellion, probably nothing to serious.

- What was Stone's real plan after coming back? - I always felt Stone (the smart one) went away in order to try and break the cult of personality and let the Republic stand on its own too feet.   He might have had a fantasy about being a savior but nothing more than an idle day dream.  Knowing himself, he gambled on the popsicle to pull himself out of play.

- Why did the people of Terra, who have known the Clans are gunning for them for over a 100 years, not enact a better insurgency against Clans Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon in HOTW ala the Japanese against Vau Galaxy? - Leadership matters.

In one of the podcasts of kickstarted streams Ray mentioned that the population of Terra are going to have some sort of say in how everything plays out and we still have those 3150 blurbs that talks about an Exarch.   My money is on a rapid Rasalhague Dominionization of the Republic of the Sphere.   Part of the reason I don't think we are going to see a lot of ex-RAF shenanigans is that Chance and Tara (not Alaric) will see the need of continuing to mobilize the population in order to beat back the Cappies and maybe do something about the Horses.

Though after the last Elements of Treason book, I am not feeling like the Horses are going to be all that unified against Alaric.

[Church14]

So while it's cool to see so many folks in this thread posting, it does seem to me the last two pages have had very little, if anything to do with the Republic. If you all could try to keep your posts partially-Republic based rather than IlKhan speculation based, that'd be cool. If you all want I can make a thread that's a general speculation thread too. :)

Unfortunately, it’s functionally impossible in this forum to start a RotS thread and keep it on topic. No matter what, it’ll end with long winded diatribes about how terrible Stone was (which is an opinion one can have), how the RotS was written to die (they literally had to retcon its success out of the lore so it could die), or some other tangent.

But back on topic:
- I think Levin will lead a resistance on or off Terra. He was a soldier, not a politician, and believed hard in the RotS. Cooperation with the wolves, who promise basically endless war, stands as the antithesis of his worldview.

- I’m going to be sorely disappointed if the rest of the RAF just turns to Vapor. I’d love - for in and out of universe reasons - to see a RotS in exile.
- 1) In universe: There’s enough still unaccounted RAF units out there to secure a few worlds and offer a thorn in Alaric’s side.
- 2) In universe:  They are a prison break off Terra away from having enough people to form an almost great house sized military. Though getting the asssets is… a supreme challenge. Still, lots of manufacturing near Terra.
- 3) In universe: RotS doesn’t have overlap with clan culture to just happily roll into the biggest warmonger since Amaris as bondspeople and assimilate. There really, really should be a rub.
- 4) Out of universe: The death of the Republic was handled absolutely terribly. Embarrassingly terribly. BLP wrote a hit piece instead of a story. One so bad we can’t actually reconcile Wolves holding Terra with anywhere near the strength the do given pre-existing logic of the setting. I’d like to see CGL make some minor overtures - even if tiny - to remedy that. At this point I don’t really give a crap if they retcon parts of HotW to do it.