Author Topic: How is tank operation different in BT?  (Read 4745 times)

AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #30 on: 11 December 2023, 12:35:22 »
Exactly the basic vehicle sensor suite is about 75% as good as that of a mech (by old TacOps 222) although that could be related to their horizon distance. They can probably be a little bulkier, don't need to be as heat-engineered, or automated, so that probably gives you a price break.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #31 on: 11 December 2023, 14:48:53 »
You have to admit tanks don't need much for a good targeting system (neither do Mechs) Most combat distances are not even a kilometer between combatants. The majority of weapons don't have that much range at least energy weapons. For real life comparism the 88 gun that was used by the Germans in their Tiger 2 tank had a range of 3 kilometers (or at the very least it was said that it could rip of the turret of a T-34 at this range) What is the BT counterpart? A light AC perhaps? Battletech fights are usually slugging matches at close range unless you can slag an opponents cockpit with a Gauss rifle

Alan Grant

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #32 on: 11 December 2023, 15:26:47 »
I always assumed that tanks don't have the same level of sensor suite that 'Mechs do, and that part of that is why tanks are less expensive to purchase and maintain.  Radar may be an old technology as of the 31st Century, but it's finicky.  I know from working with a JTAC team directing a JSTARs in Iraq that radar can pick up a LOT of stuff that you don't particularly want to look at, and any radar looking at the ground is even worse that a radar looking at sky.  Automation can screen some of the clutter out, but now you're adding even more to the expense.  Start throwing in other sensors like MAGRES and you're looking at a LOT of expensive and delicate equipment.

The extent of vehicle sensor suites, in my mind, would be tried-and-true equipment like rangefinders or the short-range incoming early-warning systems like Trophy.

Lostech has a section on remote sensors, specifically portable radar (tripod mounts). Part of that notes on page 108 that radar can be detected by other radar equipped units. It says "nearly every vehicle does."

I have no trouble believing they may be degrees of better or worse versions. I've seen plenty of stuff in BT fluffed as having better computers, or a better tracking system than standard, yada yada. It's largely consigned to fluff that has been simplified for tabletop, but its there.


EDIT: Finally found something canon that speaks to vehicle crews. Techmanual page 92. References commanders, drivers, and gunners plural. Talks about how an effective gunnery team can control the targeting, tracking systems, monitor ammunition and fire their weapons. It also talks about how they can coordinate their actions to engage multiple targets with precision.

So it sounds like BT has indeed leaned hard into the idea that many vehicles have multiple gunners.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2023, 15:52:20 by Alan Grant »

Starfury

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #33 on: 11 December 2023, 16:39:17 »
Well given that you have tanks with close to 20 weapon systems and some with two or 1, I figure they have to be using autoloaders. For example
,The Scorpion probably has 1 driver and 1 commander/gunner to shoot the AC/5 and MG and tell the driver where to go.

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #34 on: 11 December 2023, 17:47:12 »
The in-book fiction in A Time of War Companion follows a Scorpion crew for a while, at least until they died horrible deaths. I think they had 3-man crews.
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The Eagle

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #35 on: 12 December 2023, 09:31:35 »
Yeah, I mean any tank that has an armament & layout at all similar to current-day MBTs is probably going to have a crew similar to current-day MBTs.  One of my personal favorites, for example, is the Goblin IFV.  It'll need a gunner for the turret laser & SRM, a driver, a commander, and a gunner for the bow MG.  An LGR-Ontos on the other hand, despite the 1-per-15-tons rule, can operate just fine with a commander, gunner, and driver.

I think the crazy crew issues won't really crop up until you get to I call the "40K Tanks" that just slap extra guns on all willy-nilly, like the Challenger X.
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Nerroth

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #36 on: 12 December 2023, 12:12:12 »
In the case of Clan Hell's Horses, there is the further case of QuadVees.

While still somewhat of an experimental technology, QuadVees borrow both from BattleMech and vehicle design lineages - and, in terms of driving them, from both MechWarrior and TankWarrior skillsets.

QuadVees have crews of two: a pilot and a gunner. This is more than most MechWarriors would be used to (particularly in a Clan touman), but fewer than in a 32nd century battle tank (such as the crew of the Fratricide, the Carnivore tank which featured in Hour of the Wolf and in the IlClan sourcebook).

So while there is much work to be done in terms of refining QuadVee technology, the implications for the Horses' tank operations might one day be significant enough for other Clans to reconsider adopting it for their own uses, perhaps.
« Last Edit: 12 December 2023, 12:20:06 by Nerroth »

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #37 on: 12 December 2023, 13:32:49 »
I feel like Battletech tanks in general have inferior diagnostics, redundancies, and, uh...I can't think of the right word so I'll say 'internal maintenance' than mechs, and compensate with extra crew. For example, no mechwarrior really has to worry about their Gauss Rifle failing to work, at least not until some jerk manages to lodge a missile between the capacitors or the watermelon supply runs out. Similarly, no mechwarrior has to worry about their torso failing to twist, so long as the waist actually exists.

Tanks can suffer all kinds of jams and misfires that need to be fixed and cleared that a mech's internal automation takes care of, so I figure that modern tank crews need technical crew to monitor, maintain, and repair all of these systems.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #38 on: 12 December 2023, 15:39:49 »
There was a short story about the last battle of the Eisenjäger tank battalion in I think was "Strategic Operations" where one Manteuffel crew was dealing with electronic gremlins during the battle and one crew member trying his best to get it working again. Which makes me wonder, are tanks as shielded against PPC blasts as Mechs?

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #39 on: 12 December 2023, 16:57:55 »
Quote
Tanks can suffer all kinds of jams and misfires that need to be fixed and cleared that a mech's internal automation takes care of, so I figure that modern tank crews need technical crew to monitor, maintain, and repair all of these systems.
If those systems are failing often enough in combat that non-combatant maintenance personnel are required members of the crew (again, things that don't happen with modern tanks), the tank designs are bad.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #40 on: 12 December 2023, 19:15:10 »
Then all tanks in Battletech are bad, and I do mean all of them. The breakdowns are known, and since they're part of the regular crit chart, it's common to ALL vehicles, not any particular class.

Still makes sense in that context for vehicles to carry crew to mitigate and/or repair these breakdowns when possible.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #41 on: 12 December 2023, 19:30:54 »
Also while it might have been capable of running a tank with reduced crew during the golden age the Succession Wars were tough on all kinds of equipment it is possible that many things that should be automated stopped being automated and required a crewman to handle instead. We are talking mad max level tech during the nadir of the 3rd SW and its not like there was a huge investment in tooling (except for flagship models like the Challenger X) in combat vehicles when the superior Battlemechs became more common after the Helm data core and Clan Invasion Renaissance.

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #42 on: 13 December 2023, 11:45:11 »
Then all tanks in Battletech are bad, and I do mean all of them. The breakdowns are known, and since they're part of the regular crit chart, it's common to ALL vehicles, not any particular class.

Still makes sense in that context for vehicles to carry crew to mitigate and/or repair these breakdowns when possible.
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #43 on: 13 December 2023, 12:06:11 »
The driver’s job doesn’t involve killing things (unless he runs over infantry, I guess).  He’s still necessary.  Not everyone in the tank has to have their finger on a trigger.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #44 on: 13 December 2023, 12:08:40 »
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.

And that's the point where I'm done. I'll continue talking with literally anyone else. To you, good day.
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Maingunnery

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #45 on: 13 December 2023, 12:20:36 »
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.
It is normal in BT for vehicle crews to perform maintenance, such as Alacorn crews doing track maintenance.
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The Eagle

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #46 on: 13 December 2023, 12:54:43 »
First of all, there's this thing in the military called (varying by service and nation, of course) "user level maintenance."  The crew is expected to learn a lot of the basic mechanical workings of the vehicle, conduct preventative maintenance (i.e., checking fluid levels), and do a lot of the basic maintenance tasks like oil changes.  The first time I ever personally ever changed a vehicle tire in my life was on a HMMWV in 2003, for example.  The only time your vehicle goes back to the shop for the actual mechanics to work on is if there's an issue that the vehicle's user is incapable of fixing, either because of knowledge or equipment needs.  And when the combat elements go out to fight, the workshop folks don't ride with them.  They're too valuable -- they're the ones with specialty knowledge in fixing and recovering the vehicles, after all -- so they stay with the HQ and the logistics train following the actual combat elements.  This leads into my second point. . .

Which is the concept of the "mobility kill."  The term obviously implies being immobilized, but in practice it references a vehicle being disabled despite still technically being able to operate in some fashion on the field.  Lots of armored vehicles, historically, were not completely destroyed and their crews killed a man.  The vehicles would take hits and something would break: the gun breach is jammed or the tank threw a track or the engine caught fire.  Whatever the case, even minor damage could potentially force a vehicle out of action.  In such cases, it was commonplace for the crew to bail out of the vehicle and either fight on foot or beat feet for friendly lines.  Whichever force held the battlefield would then either bring forward their workshops or tow disabled (but not destroyed) vehicles to the workshops, have the issues repaired, and put that vehicle back into the action.  The outstanding example of this in my mind is always North Africa in WW2, where the British used captured Italian tanks and the Germans used some captured British tanks & trucks.  At one point during Operation Crusader, the RAF refused to shoot up German supply columns because they had so many Allied vehicles in use that the pilots weren't convinced they were actually enemies!  Getting back to BattleTech in particular, my point is that many of the critical hit results on combat vehicles constitute disabling hits or mobility kills.  I'm not familiar with the force withdrawal rules so this may be covered by those, but I for one have been in games where a tank gets immobilized but the guns still work so I just let it sit there and menace anything that comes into its LOS.  In real life, that crew would bail and hoof it most of the time and thus the tank would count as destroyed in-game.

For a tank to suffer damage, the crew to bail and attempt to repair that damage in combat while under fire is, I would think, an extremely rare situation.  As in, "last stand if we don't hold this terrain feature the world ends" kind of rare.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #47 on: 13 December 2023, 13:40:02 »
It is normal in BT for vehicle crews to perform maintenance, such as Alacorn crews doing track maintenance.

They can only perform the maintenance when they have Pharaoh beer  :grin:

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #48 on: 13 December 2023, 13:52:49 »
The driver’s job doesn’t involve killing things (unless he runs over infantry, I guess).  He’s still necessary.  Not everyone in the tank has to have their finger on a trigger.
The driver's job involves killing things.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #49 on: 13 December 2023, 14:02:58 »
The driver's job involves killing things.
Not directly. The driver enables the tank to go where it needs to go to do the killing.  But so does the mechanic.  If a mechanic is an REMF who shouldn’t be in a tank because he doesn’t kill people himself, then so is a driver, or even a loader.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #50 on: 13 December 2023, 14:41:45 »
In this dreaded place call real life, Rheinmetall is creating a new fourth position in their new KF51. They switched to an auto loader for the gun and market the fourth position as either reserved for the unit commander or a systems / electronics / drone operator. I can absolutely see at least some BT tanks having similar positions, especially if the tank features advanced electronics or additional comm gear.
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #51 on: 14 December 2023, 01:03:47 »
Quote
Not directly. The driver enables the tank to go where it needs to go to do the killing.  But so does the mechanic.  If a mechanic is an REMF who shouldn’t be in a tank because he doesn’t kill people himself, then so is a driver, or even a loader.
The driver is directly involved in killing things. He wouldn't get a command during fire commands if he wasn't.

RE: drone operator. If the tank has a drone system, rather than receiving feeds from another element's reconnaissance drone, yep, that's something that will interfere with any other crewmember's function and need a new guy. We'll see what the Heer of other operators do with the 1CF of space or if their requirements allow it to remain on the version they adopt.
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theagent

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #52 on: 14 December 2023, 11:48:25 »
The J. Edgar is a two-crew AFV. No doubt on that, by rules, or fluff.

All standard ammo-based weapons in the BTU utilize autoloaders. Even including the archaic Rifles, everything is an autocannon or multi-tube missile launcher. The extra crew is ridiculous, brought about by people who knew nothing about AFV operation. It's just the way it is.

Not quite sure I agree with that.  M1 Abrams is roughly 60 metric tons in size, which in CBT translates to a 4-man crew...which is what the Abrams actually has.  And let's look at what those crewmen do:
  • Driver:  Obviously, he drives the tank.  Now, unless we're going to say that all CBT combat vehicles are self-driven (which, if they were...then why does a 'Mech even need a pilot, right?), then the driver is still needed.
  • Gunner:  Operates the main gun (105mm or 120mm, depending on model), & can also fire the 7.62mm MG that's coaxially mounted with the main gun.  Now, obviously, you still want at least one gunner on the tank, or the driver is going to have to split his time (which TacOps covers the penalties on that).  But he is limited in what he can fire at.  The main gun can elevate, but to traverse you have to turn the turret...so the gunner can only fire towards whatever the main gun is facing.
     That applies to the coax MG as well, because it's installed right next to the main gun:  whatever the main gun is pointed out, that's the only direction the coax can fire towards.
  • Commander:  Kind of a given that, if you're going to have multiple crewmen on a vehicle, especially if you have more than 2 people, someone has to be the guy in charge.  That's the tank commander, & he's supposed to be keeping an eye out on the battlefield & directing the gunner & driver in their duties...but he also has another job:  manning the .50cal HMG that's on top of the turret.  Unlike the main gun, the .50 can be swiveled & elevated to point in pretty much any direction...so the main gun could be firing at a target directly ahead, while the commander is putting rounds downrange behind the tank to clear out some enemy grunts that poked their heads up too soon.  The only reason that the tank crew can do that is because there's a 2nd guy that can aim the separately-aimed weapon.  Which leads to...
  • Loader:  In an Abrams, his primary job is to keep feeding rounds to the main gun so the gunner can keep firing.  In CBT, since all weapon systems are fed by auto-loaders, that puts him out of a job.  Except...he has another job as well:  manning the 7.62mm GPMG that's also pintle-mounted on the top of the turret (just like the .50).  So now you have two guys that can lay down suppressive fire on enemy grunts to either side or behind the tank while the gunner is blasting away with the main gun at the enemy tanks & other heavy targets.

That's where the extra crew comes into play with CBT tanks.  Small vehicles (15 tons & under), with a single crewmen, can only fire at a single target period (no "secondary target" options).  Vehicles up to 30 tons (2 crew) act as normal (additional targets getting the "secondary target" penalty).  Larger vehicles get the benefit of being able to attack multiple targets without the "secondary target" penalty applying. 

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #53 on: 14 December 2023, 12:10:01 »
The driver is directly involved in killing things. He wouldn't get a command during fire commands if he wasn't.

What?
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #54 on: 15 December 2023, 00:47:55 »
Not quite sure I agree with that.  M1 Abrams is roughly 60 metric tons in size, which in CBT translates to a 4-man crew...which is what the Abrams actually has.  And let's look at what those crewmen do:
  • Driver:  Obviously, he drives the tank.  Now, unless we're going to say that all CBT combat vehicles are self-driven (which, if they were...then why does a 'Mech even need a pilot, right?), then the driver is still needed.
  • Gunner:  Operates the main gun (105mm or 120mm, depending on model), & can also fire the 7.62mm MG that's coaxially mounted with the main gun.  Now, obviously, you still want at least one gunner on the tank, or the driver is going to have to split his time (which TacOps covers the penalties on that).  But he is limited in what he can fire at.  The main gun can elevate, but to traverse you have to turn the turret...so the gunner can only fire towards whatever the main gun is facing.
     That applies to the coax MG as well, because it's installed right next to the main gun:  whatever the main gun is pointed out, that's the only direction the coax can fire towards.
  • Commander:  Kind of a given that, if you're going to have multiple crewmen on a vehicle, especially if you have more than 2 people, someone has to be the guy in charge.  That's the tank commander, & he's supposed to be keeping an eye out on the battlefield & directing the gunner & driver in their duties...but he also has another job:  manning the .50cal HMG that's on top of the turret.  Unlike the main gun, the .50 can be swiveled & elevated to point in pretty much any direction...so the main gun could be firing at a target directly ahead, while the commander is putting rounds downrange behind the tank to clear out some enemy grunts that poked their heads up too soon.  The only reason that the tank crew can do that is because there's a 2nd guy that can aim the separately-aimed weapon.  Which leads to...
  • Loader:  In an Abrams, his primary job is to keep feeding rounds to the main gun so the gunner can keep firing.  In CBT, since all weapon systems are fed by auto-loaders, that puts him out of a job.  Except...he has another job as well:  manning the 7.62mm GPMG that's also pintle-mounted on the top of the turret (just like the .50).  So now you have two guys that can lay down suppressive fire on enemy grunts to either side or behind the tank while the gunner is blasting away with the main gun at the enemy tanks & other heavy targets.

That's where the extra crew comes into play with CBT tanks.  Small vehicles (15 tons & under), with a single crewmen, can only fire at a single target period (no "secondary target" options).  Vehicles up to 30 tons (2 crew) act as normal (additional targets getting the "secondary target" penalty).  Larger vehicles get the benefit of being able to attack multiple targets without the "secondary target" penalty applying.
A few notes. Current configurations of the Abrams are pushing 80 tons and the 75 ton threshold for a 5th crewmember was met over a decade ago. And the tank plenty of capacity for more. I guess 240 ton engine is a 320 ton engine ;)

It's not really that big a deal, but the loader's MG can only engage targets from about the 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock in relation to the turret's orientation due to how it's mounted.
Doctrinally, the loader's MG is primarily considered a self defense weapon for use when the tank is stationary in a battle position and enemies become visible at close range when attempting to assault or bypass the tank. The commander's MG is designated as an anit-aircraft MG, with one of its roles to throw enough DANGER!TM at an enemy pilot that they think better of risking actually being hit and pull away before they can land hits on the tank. It's also a primary weapon for interim effects on soft targets where expending a main gun round might be wasteful.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #55 on: 15 December 2023, 01:35:13 »
Some things.

1.  The "Fluff" from various TROs doesn't always match the 1/15 Tons rounded up that TM has.

2.  The full crew of the Demolisher was mentioned in its first appearance in TRO3026 or MW1E IIRC. 
Something like 2 Drivers, 2 Gunners, Commander, Loader, & Radio Operator, IIRC.

3.  Loaders would purely be monitoring systems & not actual loading like on the M1-Abrams.
The BT Autocannons fire off "bursts" of shells the same size as the Abrams single shell, no human could load that fast or lift the weight of entire "clips" of 105mm shells every 10 seconds.  Autoloaders all the way.

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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #56 on: 15 December 2023, 03:34:17 »
Possibly bursts. AC/X is a designation of capability, not design. An AC/20 could be a burst of smaller rounds or one big one.

(Of course, MW is the only source for EDIT: art of the four-track configuration. Neither TRO:3026 nor any other source use it.)
« Last Edit: 15 December 2023, 03:41:12 by paladin2019 »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #57 on: 15 December 2023, 03:40:37 »
Possibly bursts. AC/X is a designation of capability, not design. An AC/20 could be a burst of smaller rounds or one big one.

(Of course, MW is the only source for the four-track configuration. Neither TRO:3026 nor any other source use it.)

There was also a mention in I think the Reunification war book that mentions that the AC20 on a Hetzer is not the same as the AC20 in a Demolisher. I would suspect the same goes for every AC caliber.
Also in terms of loading systems just take a look at the Bulwark: it's loading system goes right outside the tank. I highly doubt a "loader" actually takes the round which is probably way too heavy for one person and inserts it into the gun

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #58 on: 15 December 2023, 03:42:41 »
Note of clarification. MW1e is the source of the four-track art. No other source uses it, even TRO:3026 which says it is a four track design.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Alan Grant

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #59 on: 15 December 2023, 05:53:00 »
Some things.

1.  The "Fluff" from various TROs doesn't always match the 1/15 Tons rounded up that TM has.

2.  The full crew of the Demolisher was mentioned in its first appearance in TRO3026 or MW1E IIRC. 
Something like 2 Drivers, 2 Gunners, Commander, Loader, & Radio Operator, IIRC.

3.  Loaders would purely be monitoring systems & not actual loading like on the M1-Abrams.
The BT Autocannons fire off "bursts" of shells the same size as the Abrams single shell, no human could load that fast or lift the weight of entire "clips" of 105mm shells every 10 seconds.  Autoloaders all the way.

Good catch on the Demolisher. I broke out TRO 3026 and looked it up.

To elaborate on what that book says. The Demolisher fluff in that book adds a few interesting tidbits on crew.

1. The crew complement actually varies based on when the vehicle was produced and what upgrades it has.

2. Popular upgrades includes adding shell-loaders and a combination commander/gunner position.

3. The number of crew varies. Sometimes there is a commander, 2 drivers, 2 gunners, 2 loaders and 1 communications/engineer crewman. Other times the commander acts as the driver. There are versions that have 1 gunner and no loaders.

My reaction to the above:

I should note that TRO 3039, which is the newer book featuring the Demolisher, drops all this. But I do think it's interesting and perhaps sheds some light on how the early Battletech writers thought about this stuff. My biggest takeaway is that in the early days of BT a lot of this stuff was seen as pure fluff with a tremendous amount of variation. Even stuff like manual shell loading in some very old vehicles was on the table.

Though I agree with the idea that it's probably not a human "lifting" shells/magazines with their arms. Too heavy for that. More likely there would be a loading system that the loader operates like an equipment operator. Videos of how battleship gun shells (like the Iowa's) were loaded can help anyone conceptualize the basics of what that might look like.

The loader issue/question aside... the crew makes sense to me. I'm even ok with the 2 drivers because as I explained in an earlier post in this thread I can absolutely see navigator/pathfinder as a role alongside a driver. So one driver could be physically driving the vehicle, the other could help navigate/pathfind. Their stations could be identical, and they could switch roles as needed. I do find it very interesting that a dedicated communication/engineer position is referenced. I think that's the first time now that we've seen something like that referenced in a canon source, even if it's an old one.
« Last Edit: 15 December 2023, 06:28:00 by Alan Grant »

 

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