BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: SCC on 21 November 2015, 00:15:38
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I know the Rifleman and Jaggermech are dedicated AA designs, but are there any other 'Mechs designed primarily for AA work?
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I know the Rifleman and Jaggermech are dedicated AA designs, but are there any other 'Mechs designed primarily for AA work?
'Mechs:
JM6-S and especially JM6-A JagerMech (per TRO3025); JM6-DD
LNC25-01 Lancelot (per TRO3050U)
RFL-2N Rifleman (XTRO:Primitives 4)
RFL-3N Rifleman (per TRO3025)
RFL-7M Rifleman (per TRO:Project Phoenix)
RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II (per TRO3075)
Deimos Prime (per TRO3085Sup)
Kodiak 3 (per TRO 3058U)
LGB-12C Longbow (per TRO:Project Phoenix)
Galahad 3 (per TRO3058U)
Helepolis (per TRO3075)
Dark Crow 2 (per TRO3085)
Ryoken II (per TRO3075)
ON1-K/ON1-V/ON1-V-DC Orion (TRO3025)
Combat vehicles:
Partisan Heavy Tank (per TRO3039)
Partisan Air Defense Tank (per TRO3058U)
Partisan AA Vehicle (per TRO3145/FWL)
Aesir AA Vehicle (per TRO3145/Clans)
MHI Defense AA Tank (per TRO 3145/Republic)
DI Schmitt often used as AA platform (per TRO3145/Steiner)
Oro Heavy Tank (TRO3060)
Gun Trailer AAA (per TRO 3145)
Hachiman AAA Tank (TRO3060)
Huitzilopochtli AAA Tank (TRO3060)
Pollux ADA Vehicle (Historical: Liberation of Terra 2)
Nike Air Defense Platform (XTRO:RetroTech)
Nuberu Anti-Aircraft Tank (TRO:Prototypes)
Estevez Tank AA variant (Era Digest: Age of War)
Infantry:
House Marik's AA Jump Infantry (TRO3085)
Anti-Air Infantry (HB:HM)
Clan AA Mechanized Infantry (TRO3085)
Mobile Structures:
Rattler AA (JHS:Terra)
Other:
Anti-Aerospace Bunker (JHS:Terra)
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The Orion fluff is a bit ambiguous on the matter. It may or may not be a dedicated AA 'Mech, but it is certainly noted to have the targeting/tracking system.
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Two quotes from TRO 3025 make me think that the Orion should also be on this list.
"The Death Bloom missile system is mounted on the
Orion's left shoulder . The system launches 15 longrange
missiles in a very concentrated pattern, which is
effective against both ground and air vehicles."
"An excellent assault 'Mech, the Orion is also very
good against enemy aircraft, as it can unleash a barrage
of missile fire . The Wasat Aggressor battle computer is
well-suited for this secondary role. Thus, an Orion
sometimes accompanies mobile HQs to defend against
both enemy 'Mechs and AeroSpace Fighters."
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The Orion fluff is a bit ambiguous on the matter. It may or may not be a dedicated AA 'Mech, but it is certainly noted to have the targeting/tracking system.
Okay, added.
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So from the looks of things, in 3025 (The era I'm interested in a the moment) there's only the Rifleman, Jaggermech and Partisan.
As for infantry you want Field Gun Infantry/Motorized Batteries, Seventy-fifth L ight Guard, First Taurian Lancers, because otherwise the unit has to attack the infantry units square for them to attack it.
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The Hatchetman has what could be described as an AA targeting system. I've heard of Blackjacks being used as a replacement Riflemans but I don't know if there's fluff for that. I've heard the same for the Lancelot.The Quickdraw was supposed to be a replacement for the Rifleman so it could be used for AA work.
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As for infantry you want Field Gun Infantry/Motorized Batteries, Seventy-fifth L ight Guard, First Taurian Lancers, because otherwise the unit has to attack the infantry units square for them to attack it. die.
Fixed that for you. Unless they use field guns/arty, or carry dedicated AA weapons(not available in 3025), infantry cannot fire on aeros at all, even when directly attacked.
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there are a number of designs that would do well in the AA role but don't have the fluff saying so.
the Blackjack BJ-1 and BJ-1DC for example, with their AC2's.
the BJ2-OC with its LBX's.
the Bane/Kraken of the clans (at least the main version with all the UAC2's)
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Well we can also look at the units in the MUL with the FLK special. However the highest levels of this special are only with units that specialize in using HAGs.
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Memory is a bit rusty, but, IIRC, TRO3025/26/58 fluff for L1 units that are decent at AA =
Blackjack, Rifleman, Jagermech, Archer, Orion, Partisan & Longbow
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OK, I generated a 3038 FS Battalion, and out of 30 'Mechs, 2 mounted AC/2's and thus would work as dedicated AA units covering the battalion (A Blackjack BJ-1 and a Vulcan VL-2T), and there are a couple that only carry light LRM load-outs (Valkyrie VLK-QA and Gladiator GLD-3R) so AA is probably passable. Beyond that, pulling the Orion off the line to shoot at ASFs sounds like it could be a problem, to say nothing of moving the LRM boats off that mission.
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The Orion fluff is a bit ambiguous on the matter. It may or may not be a dedicated AA 'Mech, but it is certainly noted to have the targeting/tracking system.
The computer is a definite maybe but the missile launcher is just a game mechanics artifact of the AT 1 system where the larger LRM racks were good AAA systems because they combined long range with multiple damage rolls which was good because ASF damage was kind of like old school vee damage tables where many locations on the hit chart included critical damage effects.
-Jackmc
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OK, I generated a 3038 FS Battalion, and out of 30 'Mechs, 2 mounted AC/2's and thus would work as dedicated AA units covering the battalion (A Blackjack BJ-1 and a Vulcan VL-2T), and there are a couple that only carry light LRM load-outs (Valkyrie VLK-QA and Gladiator GLD-3R) so AA is probably passable. Beyond that, pulling the Orion off the line to shoot at ASFs sounds like it could be a problem, to say nothing of moving the LRM boats off that mission.
The Vulcan is not an AA Mech. It's an Anti-Infantry/Anti-Building mech.
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The computer is a definite maybe but the missile launcher is just a game mechanics artifact of the AT 1 system where the larger LRM racks were good AAA systems because they combined long range with multiple damage rolls which was good because ASF damage was kind of like old school vee damage tables where many locations on the hit chart included critical damage effects.
-Jackmc
What game mechanics? AT1?
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The Vulcan is not an AA Mech. It's an Anti-Infantry/Anti-Building mech.
It mounts an AC/2 and not much else, it works as an AA 'Mech
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It mounts an AC/2 and not much else, it works as an AA 'Mech
Sorry, but I guess I misunderstood you above. I thought that you are interested in 'Mechs either described or used "in universe" as anti-aircraft 'Mechs.
If you are interested simply in 'Mechs with AC-2, then you can choose from about a half dozen of AC-2-armed 'Mechs that are available in 3025 era.
As for the Vulcan, in-universe it has been used as anti-infantry and anti-building 'Mech.
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What game mechanics? AT1?
Yeah AT1, where you definitely did not want to get hit because the ASF hit chart was packed full of random nastiness.
-Jackmc
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Sorry, but I guess I misunderstood you above. I thought that you are interested in 'Mechs either described or used "in universe" as anti-aircraft 'Mechs.
If you are interested simply in 'Mechs with AC-2, then you can choose from about a half dozen of AC-2-armed 'Mechs that are available in 3025 era.
As for the Vulcan, in-universe it has been used as anti-infantry and anti-building 'Mech.
More any 'Mech that would be reasonably used in the AA role
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my general thing to look for..
if autocannons:
multiple light AC's (2's and 5's) to put up more chances for a hit (and thus a pilot check) at useful range.
multiple LBX AC's (10 or lower)
multiple tons of ammo (so you can load Flak/cluster)
if missiles:
larger LRM racks
multiple tons of ammo per rack (so you don't run dry and can afford to take less than ideal shots)
to be honest i'd prefer AC's for AA.. since they can get better to hits using the special ammo, and will usually have more shots per ton.
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Yeah AT1, where you definitely did not want to get hit because the ASF hit chart was packed full of random nastiness.
-Jackmc
I was serous what game mechanics are you talking about? I do not know what AT1 is.
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It was the old AeroTech mechanics, for aerospace fighters. And it was very unforgiving to the extent that like the old vehicle hit charts there were lots of ways that any hit could potentially do Bad Things to an ASF. Much like the lawndart roll you were trying to pingspam them until you made a hit that caused Bad Things to happen, so you didn't need a lot of damage instead you wanted to hit as many times as possible starting as far away as possible so that you'd have a greater chance of one of them making a lucky hit.
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It was the old AeroTech mechanics, for aerospace fighters. And it was very unforgiving to the extent that like the old vehicle hit charts there were lots of ways that any hit could potentially do Bad Things to an ASF. Much like the lawndart roll you were trying to pingspam them until you made a hit that caused Bad Things to happen, so you didn't need a lot of damage instead you wanted to hit as many times as possible starting as far away as possible so that you'd have a greater chance of one of them making a lucky hit.
Yes in the original aerotech you could have lots of bad things happen. It may have been that I did not play it much, but I never saw it that bad. I kind of see it as the threw armor crits, I see some people saying how much they influence the game. I do not know if we have good or bad luck, but almost never happen on either side in my local group. Or at least not in the numbers others seam to have.
Also not sure what that really has to do with the Orion? As the fluff talks about the missiles being tighter and a better computer, and how it was used for both ground and anti-air.
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It mounts an AC/2 and not much else, it works as an AA 'Mech
Any mech can be used in an AA role. That doesn't mean every mech is designed as an AA Mech. Also a unit's ability to function in an AA role is not dependent upon it mounting an AC/2. Not every AA Unit mounts an AC/2. Flak does allow those units which aren't normally AA units to function more effectively in the AA role. However dedicated AA units start off more effective against air units and become even more so with Flak ammo.
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A funny little note. The Annihilator has the exact same Wasat Aggressor Type 5 targeting system as the Orion. It also generally has either 4 LB-10X's that can fire cluster or 4 AC/10's that can easily accept flak ammo (depending on period). That's gonna leave a mark. :)
As for the Longbow, the old 7Q has the "Anti-Air Flak Systems 1" targeting system, so it qualifies as well.
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I haven't seen the malice mentioned anywhere. Both primary designs have 4 LBX ACs. You can even customize it to give it 4 gauss rifles if so inclined.
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The OP was interested in Fourth Succession War era mechs. The Malice doesn't exactly fit that category.
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Fixed that for you. Unless they use field guns/arty, or carry dedicated AA weapons(not available in 3025), infantry cannot fire on aeros at all, even when directly attacked.
According to the availability by eras listed in A Time of War, the Mark 1 AA weapon is available during the succession wars era, but exceedingly rare (availability code F). Interstellar Operations (beta) gives the same availability rating, but also lists them as extinct.
So AA infantry might actually exist in the succession wars era, but running into them might be a once in a lifetime event. And woe to the poor quartermaster who has to scrounge ammo for them!
(I just mention it because of the scene in Wolves on the Border where a Davion infantry unit fires missiles at an aerofighter flight).
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I was serous what game mechanics are you talking about? I do not know what AT1 is.
the original Aerotech game and the rules that were included in the Compendium.
-Jackmc
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According to the availability by eras listed in A Time of War, the Mark 1 AA weapon is available during the succession wars era, but exceedingly rare (availability code F). Interstellar Operations (beta) gives the same availability rating, but also lists them as extinct.
So AA infantry might actually exist in the succession wars era, but running into them might be a once in a lifetime event. And woe to the poor quartermaster who has to scrounge ammo for them!
(I just mention it because of the scene in Wolves on the Border where a Davion infantry unit fires missiles at an aerofighter flight).
Hrm, could this have been an LRM-5 in a field gun mounting?
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Nope, it's very specifically something very different. The AA Mk 1 is shoulder-launched.
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The Quickdraw is also referenced as being intended as a Rifleman replacement in its TRO listing, though there's not much about it that would seem to make it terribly capable in the AA category
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I know this is an old post, but i'm hoping to help someone else with what i learned this weekend.
Catapult version C2:
2 LB-2x and 2 LRM 15s with a 0,1,or 2 gunnery skill.
I park it behind cover, or the rest of my unit, and with the low Gunnery, it's able to donate SERIOUS LRM fire support to the battle. AND, when the VTOLs come in, the LB-2s with a -7 (-3 Cluster and -4 for 0/4 skill) that knocks them down every time.
In the past, I've had a problem with donating valuable BV just to shoot down low BV VTOL targets. THIS unit allows me build a unit that can really contribute offensively to my own battlefield agenda (2LRM15s) and contribute defensively to incoming VTOL (2LB-2xs).
In addition, if we play double blind on megamek, then I can BLIND the other team while keeping my VTOLs in the air for gathering movement information.
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For my LZ 4 O-Bakemonos with 2 tons of ADA Arrow IV ammo each . For Attacking formations 3 Anvil 8 M s with 1 Ton of ADA Arrow IV ammo each . My experience the incoming takes fire the round before it gets over the combat map the round of being over the combat map and the round after tends to dicourage a return strike .
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Any reason why the Rifleman IIC family is missing? And why only the Galahad 3 is listed, but not 1 and 2?
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Or the original Mauler: 4x AC/2 backed by 2x LRM-15 and 2x ER Large Lasers.
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Men Shen B has 2xLBX-2 AC and a beagle active probe. It was intended as a sniper but it could always snipe some aircraft :)
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I realize that it's not a Mech but what about the Pike? Especially a lance of them. They have deep ammo bins so specialty munitions are certainly viable.
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And why would I place a miserable Pike on the board when I could have these lovelies instead?
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Tools/CustomCard/5588 (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Tools/CustomCard/5588)
PV8 ( AC ) vs. PV18 ( Pike )
Yeah I know the TMM is 2, 3 on the Pike...
Only thing the Pike has going is the Turret special.
TT
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The Pike does a little extra armor...
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Yeah that too...
TT
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Pike Cs do horrid things to other tanks. And the stupidly lone medium ranged makes the UACs effectively overcome the Clan crew penalty.
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I only deploy Pikes by the lance, a Pike? not very useful. A lance of Pikes can be very useful especially when you have them concentrate fire. A company of pikes? Now you're talking, and with AC2 ranges and proper formations that entire company of Pikes can all bring supporting fire to bear on a single target.
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Company of pikes, around 7700 BV2.
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Company of pikes, around 7700 BV2.
Not all battles are using BV for balancing. A lot are "lance vs lance" or "company vs company." In which case that company of Pikes on one side all concentrating fire and moving in formation can do ugly things to significantly more expensive battlemech companies. 36 AC2 will make anyone's day bad.
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3 AC/2 Carrier
1 Demolisher / Ontos
Very effective in any era!
TT
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Which much is the best at AA?
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No such thing as best. The ones that are good at it follow the 100 rules of AA. The rules are as follows:
1 Range
2: RANGE
3: RANGE
(Rules 4 through 98 are simply "Range" over and over again, getting louder each time in hopes that the listener gets the point. By the time you reach 80 or so, a Marine Drill Sergeant is getting surgically implanted just inside your skull. At 90, we give that Sgt a bullhorn.)
99: To-hit modifiers are a nice, but optional.
100: Large damage chunks to cause threshold crits are nice, but optional.
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No such thing as best. The ones that are good at it follow the 100 rules of AA. The rules are as follows:
1 Range
2: RANGE
3: RANGE
(Rules 4 through 98 are simply "Range" over and over again, getting louder each time in hopes that the listener gets the point. By the time you reach 80 or so, a Marine Drill Sergeant is getting surgically implanted just inside your skull. At 90, we give that Sgt a bullhorn.)
99: To-hit modifiers are a nice, but optional.
100: Large damage chunks to cause threshold crits are nice, but optional.Replaced Drill Sargent with
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/RLeeErmeyCrop.jpeg/220px-RLeeErmeyCrop.jpeg)
TT
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To be fair, To-hit bonuses are a good bit more important in certain AA contexts than others. That is: You don't need them so much vs Aerospace units (ASFs, Dropships) but you'll really want them versus aerial targets that get a TMM (VTOLs, WiGEs)
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True. People talk about AA and I assume we're talking about killing aeros, but VTOLs are a whole nother ball game.
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No such thing as best. The ones that are good at it follow the 100 rules of AA. The rules are as follows:
1 Range
2: RANGE
3: RANGE
(Rules 4 through 98 are simply "Range" over and over again, getting louder each time in hopes that the listener gets the point. By the time you reach 80 or so, a Marine Drill Sergeant is getting surgically implanted just inside your skull. At 90, we give that Sgt a bullhorn.)
99: To-hit modifiers are a nice, but optional.
100: Large damage chunks to cause threshold crits are nice, but optional.
So if I'm reading this right, the answer is always Arrow IV SAM rounds?
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Honestly, in most cases they're not that much better than most AC-2 models that don't end in -X. The ability to cover the entire battlefield is very nice, but targeting adjacent air hexes and such isn't as helpful as it sounds. A plane that's trying to affect the battlefield, yet moving so slow that it spends the turn before and/or after the attack run within one or two hexes of the ground maps is so arrogant that it deserves every Arrow you can feed it.
Okay, there's also the possibilities that it's a bomb truck too heavily loaded to actually fly any faster(in which case KILL IT NOW), or a fellow Arrow-toter(in which case you can feel free to hoist it by its own petard).
The point I was failing to make is that range isn't everything, otherwise rules 99 and 100 wouldn't be included.
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Even from on-board artillery mechs?
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Wouldn't they always be on-board? If it's decently off-board, wouldn't it be too far away to provide any AA cover to the main fight?
(Genuinely don't know. My group plays that if it's not on the map, it's not in the game. For us, ALL arty is on-board. As a result, I don't know how far away folks keep their far guns.)
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I have no idea. My group doesn't really use artillery or aircraft beyond the occasional helicopter, so I really don't have a lot of experience with either.
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If you don't hit the ASF, your range doesn't matter. So to-hit modifiers are always nice. Depending on what rules you play it can be very hard to hit an attacking ASF (read Strategic Operations for it).
And when you hit, you should cause piloting rolls or roll for criticals by treshold. So your damage output is also important.
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ASFs are comparatively easy to hit (they don't get TMMs or terrain bonuses). And usually, ASFs die in ground attack missions due to failing their Lawn Dart checks rather than the raw damage from ground fire. I mainly play AS anymore so I'm not 100% on CBT/Boardgame BattleTech, but IIRC you get to force a Lawn Dart check simply on any hit, even one that doesn't threshold the location.
Wierdo's 100 rules of AAA fire are pretty much right when it comes to ASFs and DropShips. Range is really all that matters... a 1 point plink from a LB-2X is sufficient to kill a 16,000 ton Taihou dropship flying overhead to commit a warcrime of a strike.
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ASFs are comparatively easy to hit (they don't get TMMs or terrain bonuses). And usually, ASFs die in ground attack missions due to failing their Lawn Dart checks rather than the raw damage from ground fire. I mainly play AS anymore so I'm not 100% on CBT/Boardgame BattleTech, but IIRC you get to force a Lawn Dart check simply on any hit, even one that doesn't threshold the location.
Wierdo's 100 rules of AAA fire are pretty much right when it comes to ASFs and DropShips. Range is really all that matters... a 1 point plink from a LB-2X is sufficient to kill a 16,000 ton Taihou dropship flying overhead to commit a warcrime of a strike.
That why i refer to the used rule set. If you look for the advanced rules in SO, they aren't that easy to kill.
But if you go for the TW standard, you just need enough weapons, so that at least one of them hit.
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Off topic but who wins the war crime game. A Taihou or a Gorgon with a cargo bay of bombs?
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Whichever one is packing the fuel-air kind...
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Assuming the Gorgon is by itself and can't do the smart thing of loading those bombs onto fighters to deliver them properly, and that we're trying to be imaginative with non-nuclear munitions...Taihou. Those SCCs are crazy powerful at the ground scale, and the Gorgon is still limited to six bombs per pass. It just can't drop bombs fast enough, especially against any target with a minimum of AA defences.