Author Topic: Atb fighting clans  (Read 6205 times)

MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Atb fighting clans
« on: 27 July 2016, 09:50:31 »
Any tips?

I've built up a really decent sized force (i recreated the black thorns and have had a number of successful contracts to stock up), with mostly vet pilots, but every time I try and attempt a clan contract I get my arse well and truly handed to me  ;D

I know they're supposed to be the ultimate super soldiers etc, does that mean we essentially have to leave them alone until our outfit is all elite and rocking clan mechs? Can you even get clan mechs without facing them?

For more detail, I've fought 3 missions against them, won the first one because that was an extract defend, their initial force was all tanks allowing me to set up nicely to hammer the reinforcements, next one was an extract attack, over within 3 turns as the civvies were utterly trounced  ;D third was chase, managed to lose 3 heavies and pilots for their 2 medium and 1 light. Each time except the first they out bv'ed me 2-4:1 absolutely no chance!

BLOODWOLF

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 695
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #1 on: 27 July 2016, 10:31:31 »
Yeppers, I seen this with the IRC tournaments.  IS cannot hack it against the clans when the numbers on both sides are close to equal.  IS has to outnumber them (like 3 or 4:1) and gang up on the clan mechs to win, battletech just isn't very balanced in that way.  Would be nice to be able to modify how atb generates your OPFOR and maybe simulate the clan bidding procedure with them more than likely to field one star (2d6 roll of 7-12) when you have a company and 2 two stars on a 2d6 of like 4-6 or something idk.  Its just not very balanced unless you create your own scenarios and 2D6 tables to generate the OPFOR and make it your own.

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #2 on: 27 July 2016, 11:03:41 »
AtB bases your opposition at a Lance/Level II/Star level usually ending up (depending on the contract/scenario) at a 2 to one ratio to balance the poor tactics of the bot.  The issue that crops up when fighting Clans is that (if you use a four mech lance) you've already got one extra enemy to defeat and usually two.  Being that you're looking at IS vs Clan tech when you get down to BV you are going to be wildly outmatched.  **Plus, the Clanners get that boost to skill that isn't affected by the normal Green/Regular/Veteran/Elite levels meaning that their Veterans are better than yours, possibly this doesn't even affect BV.**

The ways you could modify this:  Remove some of the enemy once it gets to the MM side of a scenario.  Deploy extra reinforcements (potentially changing the deployment times/areas).  Both.

** I'm not positive about this but I believe that's how it works.



As for getting clan equipment, that changes depending on era.  For the time I play in, I'm perfectly fine with using clan tech in any units rolling as custom (keeping the unit as something that could have had the tech put in, i.e. no Clan Endo Steel).  As well as any Clanners I roll up, they get Clan mechs.  Each one gets (up to) 5 spares for the "breakable" parts, though I do pay for the parts.  Ammo I allow 20 reloads, again having to pay for them. 

It's interesting playing that way as you have a powerful weapon, but one that you end up extremely cautious in using.  One that you have to handle with kid gloves and hoping to god to have a great tech on your team.  For me it bring another level to the game, especially when you get in a battle that you know you can win, you just have to be willing to let that precious Clan tech take a beating or you can withdraw it and lose the battle, but keep the mech intact.
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

scJazz

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1828
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #3 on: 27 July 2016, 11:54:46 »
**Plus, the Clanners get that boost to skill that isn't affected by the normal Green/Regular/Veteran/Elite levels meaning that their Veterans are better than yours, possibly this doesn't even affect BV.**

Not true... Clanners pay for their increased skill with increased BV.

scJazz

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1828
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #4 on: 27 July 2016, 11:57:24 »
Any tips?

I've built up a really decent sized force (i recreated the black thorns and have had a number of successful contracts to stock up), with mostly vet pilots, but every time I try and attempt a clan contract I get my arse well and truly handed to me  ;D

The AtB rules were never designed to handle IS vs Clans. Although there are rules in place they are not optimized in a way that make them usable. There are some IS vs Clan options floating about. However, none of them were play tested, used, debugged, etc in such a manner that they were integrated into the rules.

MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #5 on: 27 July 2016, 12:49:25 »
Ahhh, thanks for the replies, does AtB work well at that time period with the exception of the clans? I ask because that is the period with the most recognisable machinery for me, mainly because of the computer games (I'm gagging to come across a bushwhacker or fafnir!) I think my tactic is just going to be to remove enemy mechs until the bv is roughly equal.

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #6 on: 27 July 2016, 15:08:16 »
**Plus, the Clanners get that boost to skill that isn't affected by the normal Green/Regular/Veteran/Elite levels meaning that their Veterans are better than yours, possibly this doesn't even affect BV.**

Not true... Clanners pay for their increased skill with increased BV.

I DID say I wasn't sure about the BV.  What about the G/R/V/E?
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

scJazz

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1828
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #7 on: 27 July 2016, 18:58:37 »
I DID say I wasn't sure about the BV.  What about the G/R/V/E?

I know you said you weren't sure... I was just clarifying. What IS the G/R/V/E?

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #8 on: 27 July 2016, 19:11:25 »
I know you said you weren't sure... I was just clarifying. What IS the G/R/V/E?

Gotcha.  Green/Regular/Veteran/Elite.  I'm pretty sure that your average Green (or whichever) Clan mechwarrior is slightly better than the equivalent IS one.  The +1 they get to skill(s) (forget whether it's one or both) is factored in after the skill roll for the "level" of the mechwarrior.
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

Sharkapult

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 136
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #9 on: 27 July 2016, 20:36:16 »
It's certainly possible to win against the clans in AtB. It is not easy however, you kind of need to fight dirty. Their range, and speed make it really difficult to fight them.
They are usually pretty crunchy once you start actually doing damage to them. The XL engines in most of their mechs mean I get a LOT of engine kills once crits start flying around. Their mechs carry ammo in all sorts of places too so I get a lot of ammo explosions that rattle their pilots until they are mush or straight-up mission kill the mech.

So, you need to work to reduce their range and speed advantages.

First, figure out ways to block their line of sight. Smoke (or infernos) or lighting terrain on fire helps. If you can cut the engagement envelope from 20+ hexes (suicide for IS mechs) down to 12 or so hexes, it'll make your weapons hit far more reliably. It is also good for what I call "splitting the combat." Use smoke screens (via smoke munitions or ignited forests/buildings/rubble) to break engagement with a number of enemy mechs so that you can engage the rest piecemeal. (This works well with broken terrain tip below, and makes recon attacks REALLY easy)

Second, you gotta slow them down somehow. Bring some mines! Those repeated hits to the legs add up, the bot usually just walks right through them to engage. You'll thank me once you close for physical combat!
Also try really hard to choose areas that force the clans to run through broken terrain but at the same time keeps your area relatively clear. This isn't always possible of course...

I've had much better luck with heavily armored and armored bricks as mechs that stand and deliver than I have had with mobile striker mechs that sacrifice armor or weapons for speed. Unfortunately with pulse lasers, targeting computers really light LRM racks without minimums and 1/2 pilots, they are pretty much just going to hit regardless of TMM, so might as well pack extra armor.

I always try to bring a reinforcement lance on every mission. I'll usually have a 5/8/5 lance of Quickdraws, Wolverines, and brawler Griffins (modded to add a TAG laser somewhere) in addition to my light lance that I use only for reinforcements. I pray that 1d6 rolls my way for one or both.

Other than that, guided artillery is seriously your friend, maybe try to squeeze in a modded Arrow IV hetzer to your lances somehow.

Depending on the rules set, (and IIRC) one type of infantry unit gives you the ability to just remove a scenario, that can help when you see one of those really stacked missions.

I still lose, a lot. But with some tricks you can get some really nice clantech salvage even if you lose a whole contract sometimes. I can usually grind out a win as the scenarios are rolled, but every once and a while too I'll either find myself removing the opponent's reinforcements or toning down their forces somehow. (swapping down a mech's weight class or adjusting the g/p of an enemy pilot)

MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #10 on: 28 July 2016, 04:34:50 »
Ah, a fantastic answer, thanks!

If I may ask a few follow up questions,

1. Setting fires, how? I've right clicked on a forest hex and I can't see any option other than target the hex, but doing that didn't have any effect, even with my flamer.

2. Mines, again, how? I would guess they're special munitions/Missile ammo? Can any missile equipped mech fire them? I think that would be a good role for my srm equipped Dasher.

3. Infantry. I've seen on Thomasmarik's YouTube he had infantry platoons with special Base defence options/MASH options, but I don't seem to be able to replicate it so I get those options, any tips/advice where to look? I can't find his original video that showed where he set it up.

Thanks for the help, I'm new to battletech and especially to MM, I know a human is supposed to have an inherent advantage over princess but I'd say we're pretty much even at the moment! Modifying mechs/off map artillery are still on my to do list!

Sharkapult

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 136
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #11 on: 28 July 2016, 05:29:11 »
Ah, a fantastic answer, thanks!

If I may ask a few follow up questions,

1. Setting fires, how? I've right clicked on a forest hex and I can't see any option other than target the hex, but doing that didn't have any effect, even with my flamer.

You might not have "Starting fires" selected as an option in game options. From MekHQ, go to game settings, its in advanced settings (I'm pretty sure, I'm away from my gaming computer at the moment I can't check). Then in Megamek, during the firing phase when you right click on the hex you should have Target (Clear) and Target (Start fire) as options once the game options are changed. Some weapons can't start fires. Flamers do though! I find firing long ranged weapons is better, I usually want smoke by them cutting them off not by me, unless I need the extra cover locally, of course. Smoke LRMs and SRMs are good for this, as are Inferno SRMs.

2. Mines, again, how? I would guess they're special munitions/Missile ammo? Can any missile equipped mech fire them? I think that would be a good role for my srm equipped Dasher.

They are called "Thunder" munitions and they are loadable into LRM and Arrow IV (its called FASCAM for Arrow IV) They deploy a minefield with the damage of the missle rack they are launched from. You right-click the hex you want to target (you need line of sight unless you have a spotter for that hex) and you'll see options, one of them will be Target (Deploy Minefield).  There are also Thunder Augmented which deliver larger minefields at a cost of halving the available ammo. Sorry, no SRM minefields though, only LRM and Arrow IV.


3. Infantry. I've seen on Thomasmarik's YouTube he had infantry platoons with special Base defence options/MASH options, but I don't seem to be able to replicate it so I get those options, any tips/advice where to look? I can't find his original video that showed where he set it up.

The infantry special abilities are not coded into MekHQ yet (still a wonderful work in progress however!) so you just have to do the work yourself off of the spreadsheet download that's here on the forums.

Thanks for the help, I'm new to battletech and especially to MM, I know a human is supposed to have an inherent advantage over princess but I'd say we're pretty much even at the moment! Modifying mechs/off map artillery are still on my to do list!

Have fun! that first (lucky/good/whatever) victory against 1.5 or 2 times the BV is really nice! (but by NO means a certainty, EVER)

I forgot: Another thing I do sometimes is make the map BIGGER if I'm fighting a horde of Princess units. It is easy for me to keep my force together but Princess seems terrible at it and I can fight her a bit more piecemeal that way. Makes her slow moving assaults feel like the boss battle in a video game lol.

pheonixstorm

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5548
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #12 on: 28 July 2016, 06:28:59 »
Or if you are defending the center of a heavy urban map look for building with a very high CF to park your mech in and wait for princess to come to you. The building will protect you while you dish out punishment on your enemy  O0

Southernskies

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 224
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #13 on: 28 July 2016, 07:32:21 »
My suggestion (based on other ideas above), is once AtB transfers you to MM:

1. Lower the number of enemy Clan 'mechs until the 'mech BVs match (representing the bidding process), one mech at a time.  You can remove the ones you 'must not' face or keep the ones you want to try and win salvage for.

2. Don't adjust vehicle numbers (Princess still needs the extra to challenge you).

MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #14 on: 28 July 2016, 08:13:32 »
Thanks for all the help guys! As for the above, to try and keep the random element that this game is so great at, I've been rolling a d7/8/9 (however many mechs they have total) to remove mechs one by one until the BVs are similar. Was thinking about rolling a d6 first to give me a target %BV to aim for (1=80% of my BV,    3=100% of my BV,   6=130% of my BV).

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #15 on: 28 July 2016, 10:29:59 »
There is the RUS 2.  Easy enough to make your own "dice".  http://www.heavymetalpro.com/RUS_Features.htm
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

Mukaikubo

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #16 on: 28 July 2016, 11:10:55 »
One of the optional rules I wrote in was new enemy force size tables for the Clans, effectively cutting things in half and rounding up via elemental stars. ( So a light lance, instead of rolling for either 1 medium lance, 2 light lances, or 1 heavy lance, would be rolling for 1 light nova, 1 light star, or one medium nova respectively). I use them, but a lot of people don't actually have any trouble executing, say, a full binary of medium mechs with one heavy lance and so have no interest in dropping that down to one medium star. Diff'rent strokes. 

BlueThing

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 134
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #17 on: 28 July 2016, 17:29:20 »
Id suggest some additional support units:

1) ASFs with full loads of bombs.
2) Offmap artillery. Everyone likes artillery support.

The ASF needs enough armor to survive the high accuracy of Clan Mechs, and it would be ideal to make the pass once they are engaged on the ground to reduce incoming fire. Otherwise, you will be at high risk of a lawn dart check.


MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #18 on: 29 July 2016, 09:12:26 »
Air support is beyond me at the moment :D

I've just been doing the bv equality so far, just salvaged a vulture twin gauss (L)

BlueThing

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 134
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #19 on: 29 July 2016, 20:25:50 »
Another thing that occurs to me is C3. A C3 network is a huge force multiplier.

I've never used it in MM, so I'm not sure if it works or if you have to do anything fancy to make it work.

arlith

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 698
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #20 on: 29 July 2016, 20:32:28 »
Another thing that occurs to me is C3. A C3 network is a huge force multiplier.

I've never used it in MM, so I'm not sure if it works or if you have to do anything fancy to make it work.

It works, you have to configure the network in the lobby.
Member of the MegaMek Team.

BlueThing

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 134
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #21 on: 29 July 2016, 23:26:17 »
It works, you have to configure the network in the lobby.
Good to know.  I'll have to look at that at some point. I've used C3 in tabletop to counter the Clans and found it very effective.

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #22 on: 30 July 2016, 08:09:21 »
Good to know.  I'll have to look at that at some point. I've used C3 in tabletop to counter the Clans and found it very effective.

And logarithmic multiplier at that.  If you like big battles and do company sized engagements, a good C3 network makes it even more effective than a single lance.  Especially since Princess doesn't understand about headhunting.  The devastation a lance of fire support mechs can reign with an active C3 network is just sick.
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

BLOODWOLF

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 695
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #23 on: 30 July 2016, 10:14:38 »
My impression is that princess will go after my officer but, maybe its because he/she is in a heavier mech or just coincidence but, she does seem to go after units I'd rather she left alone lol.

pfarland

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1769
  • Star Captain Farland - 'Forever Faithful'
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #24 on: 30 July 2016, 10:51:09 »
My impression is that princess will go after my officer but, maybe its because he/she is in a heavier mech or just coincidence but, she does seem to go after units I'd rather she left alone lol.

She does seem to go after higher tech/heavier units, but I think that's more of a threat thing.  When I'm running a C3 unit (especially a company sized one) I tend to keep the C3M mechs in more defensive setups and hang them back.  That probably causes her to prioritize the closer, more heavily armed ones.  I think it's a tactics style that causes that.  I also tend to use either customised units or Omnis for C3 use, never been particularly happy with the setups of standard C3 units, especially C3Ms.
Rule number 4 of product design*: "The concept of 'Intended Use' never survives initial contact with the end user." - Feign

"It should come to no surprise that this forum loves solving problems with war crimes. " - SteelRaven

arlith

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 698
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #25 on: 30 July 2016, 11:26:42 »
Princess has some logic to compute whether someone is a commander or not, and "commander" units get higher priority.  Princess also tries to compute the biggest threat, I think mostly based on how much damage the unit can dish out.  Updating the "isCommander" logic to include C3 masters in a connected C3 network would probably be useful and not too difficult.
Member of the MegaMek Team.

Jayof9s

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2419
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #26 on: 01 August 2016, 07:36:33 »
Princess has some logic to compute whether someone is a commander or not, and "commander" units get higher priority.  Princess also tries to compute the biggest threat, I think mostly based on how much damage the unit can dish out.  Updating the "isCommander" logic to include C3 masters in a connected C3 network would probably be useful and not too difficult.

AND bigger 'Mechs are usually slower. Which usually means they're easier to hit. Another part of the bots' calculations is based on how easily/not it can hit any particular unit as well as the prioritizations Arlith mentioned.

BlueThing

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 134
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #27 on: 01 August 2016, 16:15:33 »
She does seem to go after higher tech/heavier units, but I think that's more of a threat thing.  When I'm running a C3 unit (especially a company sized one) I tend to keep the C3M mechs in more defensive setups and hang them back.  That probably causes her to prioritize the closer, more heavily armed ones.  I think it's a tactics style that causes that.  I also tend to use either customised units or Omnis for C3 use, never been particularly happy with the setups of standard C3 units, especially C3Ms.
Yeah, the canon C3 options leave a lot to be desired. :)

MoleMan

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 344
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #28 on: 02 August 2016, 03:10:12 »
Can someone explain why my dragoons rating is in numbers? 1(11) or 2(22) etc.

neoancient

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 507
  • MegaMek team member
Re: Atb fighting clans
« Reply #29 on: 02 August 2016, 10:22:11 »
There are two methods for computing unit rating. You can select which one to use on the "General" tab of the campaign options dialog. The default setting is Interstellar Ops, which computes a numeric score. The AtB rules are designed for use with the FM:Mercs method, which is measured by a letter.

 

Register