BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Drewbacca on 03 April 2020, 12:43:05
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Just to be clear, I asked this before but can't find it on the forum, mechanized travels in light APCs and motorized has motorcycles and jeeps, right?
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here are the official descriptions from TW:
Motorized: Equipped with a variety of light unarmored vehicles, motorized infantry move around the battlefield more readily than foot infantry, but are still no match for BattleMechs. Motorized infantry units serve the same duties as foot infantry and also serve as forward observers or reconnaissance personnel.
Mechanized: These troops work in close conjunction with vehicles and rely on them to move around the battlefield. A wide variety of mechanized forces see battlefield service from hover-sleds or armored jeeps to intrinsic APC or IFV transport, providing mechanized infantry with unprecedented maneuvering capabilities.
that said, the line between the two when it comes to depiction is... blurry, especially when considering the in-game combat capabilities.
as an example of the fuzzy split, this unit is classified as mechanized
(http://puu.sh/FsL3J/ac73bb5669.png)
as is this
(http://puu.sh/FsL6m/9517075dc3.png)
but this is considered motorized (see the vehicle in the background compared to the other units)
(http://puu.sh/FsL7l/ca551a1842.png)
if you're making your own, i would go by the TW descriptions rather than the 3085 depictions to avoid as many self-induced headaches as possible
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Don't forget that art is the lowest form of canon. Feel free to envision those units as looking very differently if it helps.
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The classic separation of motorized vs mechanized is as follows
Motorized infantry uses wheeled vehicles; mechanized uses tracked vehicles. For BT, mechanized also applies to hover units. Jump infantry, marines (space and aquatic), mounted infantry, and foot infantry are also separate categories, as is battle armor and technically airborne infantry, though the last category gets really grey given the fact that infantry transported in vehicles doesn't take on the description of the vehicle, just how the infantry moves.
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Personally, I refer to infantry transported by actual combat vehicles as "properly mechanized".
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Motorized infantry uses wheeled vehicles; mechanized uses tracked vehicles. For BT, mechanized also applies to hover units.
This is in no way accurate.
Motorized troops do not have a defined motive type, while mechanized can refer to wheeled, tracked, hover, VTOL, and minisub troops.
Motorized infantry are often portrayed in art as using wheeled vehicles, but no part of the rules clarify this, so we can't assume. All we know is that they stay on the ground, that's it.
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all I got out of my TM was motorized had 3 ground movement.
Mechanized that were hover, track, wheel got 5, 3, 4, respectively along with movement restrictions for each.
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All of this just demonstrates why the infantry construction rules badly need a rework. Motorized is too general (and too slow), while Mechanized should be dropped and replaced with the Foot Infantry with assigned tabletop-scale APCs it was designed to proxy for.
For fixes specific to Motorized infantry, I'd double or even triple their speed (or at least give them a "don't attack, just drive" speed), and set it so that the only times they go at a slower pace would be when they're hauling field guns/artillery. Encumbering Armor and Infantry Support Weapons would have no effect on their speed, no matter how much they weigh (we all know even a single AC/2 Field Gun eclipses even the heaviest Support Weapon by an order of magnitude).
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here are the official descriptions from TW:
that said, the line between the two when it comes to depiction is... blurry, especially when considering the in-game combat capabilities.
as an example of the fuzzy split, this unit is classified as mechanized
(http://puu.sh/FsL3J/ac73bb5669.png)
as is this
(http://puu.sh/FsL6m/9517075dc3.png)
but this is considered motorized (see the vehicle in the background compared to the other units)
(http://puu.sh/FsL7l/ca551a1842.png)
if you're making your own, i would go by the TW descriptions rather than the 3085 depictions to avoid as many self-induced headaches as possible
just from the TW quote and the art examples, I would say the distinction is between person and vehicle focus.
Motorized, is just infantry that is supposed to get around the battlefield at the speed of not necessarily specified or relevant vehicles.
Mechanized, is specific infantry vehicles that have a driver.
but that can be fuzzy.
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all I got out of my TM was motorized had 3 ground movement.
Mechanized that were hover, track, wheel got 5, 3, 4, respectively along with movement restrictions for each.
TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.
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TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.
right! the copter and microlite guys ... sheesh! I can't imagine flying around a battlefield in a microlite (I am using that correctly, right?)
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I've always thought of Motorized as being 1-2 man Motorbikes.
Dirtbikes.
Those German WW2 1/2 track Bikes.
Maybe even some Korean War era Jeeps like on Mash.
AKA... ZERO armor.
They don't have proper terrain restrictions like Mechanized do, so I see whatever vehicles they have as being very small to fit in between trees & not slow down. (I really love that German 1/2 bike, lol)
You also have special infantry types like Scuba that are "Motorized" so I see them using those underwater sea scooter devices.
Mechanized on the other hand carries a full squad in a single vehicle. (Support Vehicle Scale)
Humvees w/ Armor.
The new replacements for Humvees that look like an armored 5 Ton truck.
WW2 era Half Tracks.
But not as large as the full on 10 Ton APCs from TRO3026 that were essentially M113's in scale. (Combat Vehicle Scale)
For years I've used the term "MOBILE" infantry (A'la Starship Troopers) to describe platoons of the lighter infantry cruising around in APC/IFVs like the Maxim or Heavy APC series.
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Throw light jeeps and maybe unarmored Humvees in with the motorized troops, and you and I are pretty much on the same page. :thumbsup:
For me, the most important difference is not in mobility, but in protection.
Motor troops take full damage from antipersonnel guns, and very little from most antiarmor ones, implying light unarmored vehicles with no protection from small-caliber fire, while the unit as a whole is so dispersed that a PPC or AC burst will only kill one or two troopers.
On the other end of the spectrum, mechinf take less damage from burst-fire weapons, but more from the big guns. That says the bigger vees are armored to protect against small arms, but they still cannot protect against big guns, and a mech-scale hit will kill or disable a vehicle carrying more troops, hence the greater effect.
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I mentioned WW2/Korean era Jeeps like on Mash. Just to cover the old picture of it on the cardboard markers w/ City Tech 1E
The real issue I have w/ Humvees is you start to get a break down when it comes to MP & speed.
Even a fully loaded hummer w/ 5 guys & a .50 cal on the roof is able to do better than 33 KPH (20MPH) which to me equates to 3MP movement.
Let alone the fact that if they are "support" troops they are supposed to be limited to 2MP.
The fact that some hummers can carry over a squad in them with the cargo truck bed version & it really feels less like 28 man platoons & more like 4 squad carriers.
I picture "motorized" as being at LEAST 3 "vehicles" per squad & up to 7 in the case of single rider dirt bikes.
I suppose we could call the 2-3 MP being "tactical" movement & they can do more flat out.
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A 25 rated engine can push a 5 ton wheeled chassis at a bit better than Humvee speed...
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I'm aware, but I'm not sure what the point of that is.
Is a Humvee 5 tons?
Are Mechanized infantry vehicles a full 5 tons each?
Do Mechanized infantry of any type go 9/14 MP ?
The vehicles for Mechanized are probably built using Support vehicle rules & should be restricted to about 3/5 speed.
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How do your speed calculations change if you assume the movement phase also includes the troopers exiting their vehicles to fight right next to them as needed, and also getting back in?
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They don't.
My mechanized infantry all fight from inside the vehicles like proper infantry should :thumbsup:
See below for examples. **
** Quality of troops may vary.
(https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/0*eCR6nmKBbDCCE5V9.jpeg)
(https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/media/managed/large/36082.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/M3_Half_Track%2C_Thunder_Over_Michigan_2006.jpg)
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I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight. :)
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I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight. :)
Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.
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I'm aware, but I'm not sure what the point of that is.
Is a Humvee 5 tons?
Are Mechanized infantry vehicles a full 5 tons each?
Do Mechanized infantry of any type go 9/14 MP ?
The vehicles for Mechanized are probably built using Support vehicle rules & should be restricted to about 3/5 speed.
My point is that abstracted infantry is WAY too slow.
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right! the copter and microlite guys ... sheesh! I can't imagine flying around a battlefield in a microlite (I am using that correctly, right?)
Would it be much different than a Sopwith Camel?
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TacOps added a couple more mechinf types, but aside from that, you've got everything you need right there.
It's more complicated then that, the rules treat them as MechInf, but I'm pretty sure they also say that technically their Motorized Inf, there's the text: "The term “mechanized” as it is applied to these infantry is technically a misnomer. Other mechanized troop types (hover, wheeled and tracked) are deployed utilizing full-scale vehicles. As such, technically, these
specific troop type should be classified as “motorized,” but standard usage by most militaries terms them mechanized."
Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.
Could you explain why this is?
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Would it be much different than a Sopwith Camel?
not really ... any aircraft of that era should be terrified by any fire arms.
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My point is that abstracted infantry is WAY too slow.
I feel like the infantry motor/mech veh's used to move them around are very, very small and overloaded with troops, which knocks their speed down. At 5 tons, a hovercraft with a 10 rated engine weighing 1 ton (%20) still goes 10/15. We simply don't have that level of knit-picky rules -- besides support vehicles. I guess we could create support veh with a really small engine, then increase the weight to %20 for 'padding', but then it feels like a huge waste of weight.
I also wonder how fast is to fast for infantry to move and attack without some sort of computer assisted driver or gunner. Could be worse, they could have to drive their kids around who won't behave in the back seat.
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Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.
That's my point exactly. Mechinf are that slow because they don't spend the entire movement phase moving. They spend it moving AND dismounting AND remounting.
Players that want high ground MP and are willing to see an increased level of paperwork can use single-squad APCs and an metric boatload of infantry minis/counters. It's all about giving players choices and tradeoffs.
It's more complicated then that, the rules treat them as MechInf, but I'm pretty sure they also say that technically their Motorized Inf, there's the text: "The term “mechanized” as it is applied to these infantry is technically a misnomer. Other mechanized troop types (hover, wheeled and tracked) are deployed utilizing full-scale vehicles. As such, technically, these
specific troop type should be classified as “motorized,” but standard usage by most militaries terms them mechanized."
Could you explain why this is?
Fluff is irrelevant when we're talking about rules.
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How do your speed calculations change if you assume the movement phase also includes the troopers exiting their vehicles to fight right next to them as needed, and also getting back in?
With that in mind, just giving them a flank speed they can use by giving up the ability to shoot in that phase would work wonders to make them more viable, just like how typical heavy foot infantry (2 support weapons per squad) can do "Move OR shoot, but not both at once".
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I think there is a rule that allows a Foot Platoon to move 2MP, its like Sprinting but for Infantry.
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I assure you, infantry dismounted from the M3 halftrack and M113 APC in order to fight. :)
Yeah, former M113 driver and commander here. I can assure you, the PBIs dismount and get out to fight...
I kinda always assumed this was handwaved for Mech infantry attacks as a mix of infantry quickly dismounting to fire and remounting, occasionally firing from gun ports on the move and organic weapons mounted on said vehicles.
Oh I know, I was kidding around with the pictures.
That said, as mentioned, they "can" fight while mounted, its just not a good idea, unless your in a car chase in an 80's action film.
And I think this is good reasoning for the low speeds & if we have a "sprinting" rule that applies to all infantry it might go a long way to balance them.
Moving my Motorized Support platoons 4MP a turn till I get into shooting range would be nice.
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With that in mind, just giving them a flank speed they can use by giving up the ability to shoot in that phase would work wonders to make them more viable, just like how typical heavy foot infantry (2 support weapons per squad) can do "Move OR shoot, but not both at once".
And I think this is good reasoning for the low speeds & if we have a "sprinting" rule that applies to all infantry it might go a long way to balance them.
Moving my Motorized Support platoons 4MP a turn till I get into shooting range would be nice.
It's been in TacOps for years. Any infantry (even BA) can use Fast Movement to gain an extra MP(so long as they aren't jumping), at the cost of being unable to fire, spot, or do anything else that turn. It's functionally the same as a mech Sprinting. Given that infantry often have several turns where they're not in range of anything to shoot at, I find myself using it all the time. If you combine it with the bonus for roads, your motor and mechanized infantry can manage some very impressive speeds at times.
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But not 9/14, though...
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Oh I know, I was kidding around with the pictures.
That said, as mentioned, they "can" fight while mounted, its just not a good idea, unless your in a car chase in an 80's action film.
And I think this is good reasoning for the low speeds & if we have a "sprinting" rule that applies to all infantry it might go a long way to balance them.
Moving my Motorized Support platoons 4MP a turn till I get into shooting range would be nice.
I think you’ve got a point. It would good if you had the ability to “sprint up” and then change movement type to a fire and move, slower speed.
But the mechanics of the game just don’t really take infantry into account - it’s a game of armoured robots, not infantry and all that, etc
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But not 9/14, though...
That's what dedicated APCs with their own record sheets are for. Mechinf costs you MP, but you gain in crunch reduction.
Since both options are available to players, everybody has gotten what they want. :thumbsup:
I think you’ve got a point. It would good if you had the ability to “sprint up” and then change movement type to a fire and move, slower speed.
But the mechanics of the game just don’t really take infantry into account - it’s a game of armoured robots, not infantry and all that, etc
As was mentioned earlier, that already exists in TacOps.
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I suppose... I'll take the crunch any day.
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I wanted an intuitive infantry system myself, can't say I feel satiated.
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not really ... any aircraft of that era should be terrified by any fire arms.
True but its what I think of when I think of Microlite Infantry Platoons. A flight of WWI airplanes. That or this. :)) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb8n4wftl08
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True but its what I think of when I think of Microlite Infantry Platoons. A flight of WWI airplanes. That or this. :)) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb8n4wftl08
The buzzing! The buzzing! I need to read up a bit on them and see what kind of weapons they can have. Hopefully some sort of bombs, or maybe just carry grenades!
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Would a "Microlite" vehicle be anything like a hang-glider? Most modern Ultra-light aircraft are extremely frail even compared to a WWI fighter plane.
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It's pretty much either a reinforced hang glider with a mounted engine, or a parasail with a smaller back pack mounted caged prop. Apparently you can fit two of the latter in a modified external drop tank. They're not for combat but rather mobility.
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just did some rereading ... max of 2 troopers and 4 squads for microlite! -- so very small. Microcopter at 4 troopers and 4 squads. Just something to keep in mind when I make a design/unit
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The weight of a microlite squad is 3 tons so that would put it about the weight of a ultra-light which weigh 254 pounds or less. A Royal Aircraft Factory F.E.8 is a two seat biplane that weighs: 1,470 lb (668 kg). So it's close in weight to the TO version. The speed also works out. Only WWI aircraft can carry support weapons and bombs. So they'd work but not work. I would have thought that some support weapons, those with a crew of 1, could be used.
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Never look to reality to determine what should work, you'll only get a headache. Only look to the rules.
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Never look to reality to determine what should work, you'll only get a headache. Only look to the rules.
True. Not that they don't sometimes give me headaches too. xp I'm mostly trying to get a visual in my head.
Unfortunately I can't use Little Nellie for MicroCopter Infantry. ;D
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The weight of a microlite squad is 3 tons ...
OMG that tidbit was waaaay down in a table. Totally assumed they were 1 ton per trooper like other mechanized.
And slightly off topic: Is there a difference in the foot and motorized infantry weights between the 2013 and 2018 TechManuals?
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OMG that tidbit was waaaay down in a table. Totally assumed they were 1 ton per trooper like other mechanized.
And slightly off topic: Is there a difference in the foot and motorized infantry weights between the 2013 and 2018 TechManuals?
Yeah I had to hunt for it. MicroCopters have a different weight too. 2 tons per trooper. Actually, +1.9 tons per trooper.
I'm not sure about those editions but the 2007 version has different weights from the latest version
Old Weight
Foot 0.1 ton per trooper
Jump 0.21 ton per trooper
Motorized 0.18 ton per trooper
Mechanized 1 ton per 5 troopers
New Weight
Foot 0.085 ton per trooper
Jump 0.195 ton per trooper
Motorized 0.165 ton per trooper
Mechanized 1 ton per 5 troopers
I hadn't even noticed the new weights for infantry. I wonder why the change. Not that I'm complaining.
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There's now a rebate/extra spend for anti-Mech equipped units. Units without the training and equipment are fractionally lighter.
It's covered in the TechManual errata PDF.
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Cool! Thanks! :thumbsup: :beer:
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It's amazing what 15kg of satchel charges and grappling hooks will get you...
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There's now a rebate/extra spend for anti-Mech equipped units. Units without the training and equipment are fractionally lighter.
It's covered in the TechManual errata PDF.
Also saw in TO that there were other add-ons for infantry that cost .005 and so on ... wow, infantry are now like mini-mini mechs! (which is good, but have a lot more reading to do). ... wait, that may have in been in the newer TM. pdfs blurring together.
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Just to be clear, I asked this before but can't find it on the forum, mechanized travels in light APCs and motorized has motorcycles and jeeps, right?
Simplest rule?
Yes and no.
Motorised and Mechanised are the same except one is tougher and masses more. There is a rule difference but the descriptions of what each version is don't match. As I.understand it, this is because the design rules weren't thorough enough, so if a designer wanted to specify a certain movement mode, they were allocated the mechanised type even if they would be better described as motorised.
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The nice thing about those Anti-Mech weight reductions is things like a 36 man Motorized Platoon for C* being able to fit into the 6 ton bay of a 28 man platoon by giving up the Anti mech abilities.
Or a Jump Platoon at 30 men being able to fit into the same bay on say a Karnov to deploy an over sized platoon via air drop.
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right! the copter and microlite guys ... sheesh! I can't imagine flying around a battlefield in a microlite (I am using that correctly, right?)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iUIOglzB82A/UrRPiAEY5hI/AAAAAAAADN8/23QCg6v-kqc/s1600/helicopter+infantry.jpg)
I'm sure it is perfectly safe, and not at all crying out for a LBX and someone yelling "PULL"
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DOC, was that madness from the 50s or the 60s? ???
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DOC, was that madness from the 50s or the 60s? ???
Madness is relative, DARPA was talking about making Flying Humvees just ten years ago.
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>:D Sweet!
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Isn't one big differences between the Motorized and Mechanized troops that the Motor type can cut through buildings fairly quickly, which later is plain slow but packs firepower and more troops?
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iUIOglzB82A/UrRPiAEY5hI/AAAAAAAADN8/23QCg6v-kqc/s1600/helicopter+infantry.jpg)
I'm sure it is perfectly safe, and not at all crying out for a LBX and someone yelling "PULL"
What's the damage when infantry is out in the open ... either way, I think you've found the illustration of 'out in the open'!
yeah, what is gained in mobility is lost in cover. Microcopter/lite troops can be armored right? (any loss of movement with armor?)
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Isn't one big differences between the Motorized and Mechanized troops that the Motor type can cut through buildings fairly quickly, which later is plain slow but packs firepower and more troops?
Sorta. Motor troops only pay 1MP to move through a building, while mechinf pay 2MP. Both can usually move through cities a lot faster than almost anything else.
Firepower and troop counts are dependent solely on what guns the platoon is equipped with and how many man's the designer put in there. The generic platoon sizes usually make mechinf smaller, but there's no requirement to do so.
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I'm not a fan of "Mechanized" infantry as a whole.
1. I think due to their weight, they should PURELY be garrison troops.
Also, the above works well since if they run into locals acting up the #1 thing they will face is small arms which they take reduced damage from.
Finally they are a bit faster in most cases when it comes to moving around on their own for short distances.
2. Motorized on the other hand are easier to transport in APCs for high speed longer distance travel. They also take reduced damage from heavy weapons which they likely face when attacking another world.
And why on earth do we need a Flying Humvee when we have a Black Hawk ?
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And why on earth do we need a Flying Humvee when we have a Black Hawk ?
That was the qestion everyone was asking and I'm sure why we never saw the prototype. Keep in mind, our game has LAMs with a die hard fan base for that particular unit because 'Transformers!'.
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DOC, was that madness from the 50s or the 60s? ???
yep works for BTMadness is relative, DARPA was talking about making Flying Humvees just ten years ago.
I had missed that one
but here a link with video (https://www.rt.com/usa/157244-flying-army-truck-viral/)
Interest idea but really WTF
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yep works for BTI had missed that one
but here a link with video (https://www.rt.com/usa/157244-flying-army-truck-viral/)
Interest idea but really WTF
That looks dangerous.
These look safer ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafner_Rotabuggy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_Model_118
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No....... Just......... NO
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iUIOglzB82A/UrRPiAEY5hI/AAAAAAAADN8/23QCg6v-kqc/s1600/helicopter+infantry.jpg)
I'm sure it is perfectly safe, and not at all crying out for a LBX and someone yelling "PULL"
This is the previous video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03dWPODt0ZU
But the relevant one is this one at the time linked: https://youtu.be/1fnsCNMi3gg?t=544