Author Topic: What is your favorite mech weight class?  (Read 5517 times)

Fear Factory

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #30 on: 02 January 2020, 15:56:39 »
Medium supplemented by Light, Heavy, and rarely play Assault.
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Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #31 on: 04 January 2020, 14:20:50 »
Hmm, I dont really have a favorite class.  I’d rather choose by role/characteristics than weight class.  I gravitate towards designs in which firepower and speed are prioritised over armour.  The sort of thing you'd see in strike lances, I guess.  The Wolverine is probably my favourite mech overall.  It carries a good weapon mix on a versatile chassis, hits reasonably hard, and brings decent speed and jump.  There are others I like across the weight classes which possess similar traits.  The Victor, for example, plays a lot like  a bigger Wolfy in my mind.  That said, much as I love the design, I cant get my head around the stock 3025 era Quickdraw, and when I use it usually end up resorting to a custom build that fits its intended role better (heresy, I know :) ).
« Last Edit: 04 January 2020, 14:53:29 by Phocion »

Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #32 on: 04 January 2020, 14:48:06 »
Not heresy at all... I don't know anyone who thinks the stock Quickdraw is fit for purpose as is...

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #33 on: 05 January 2020, 10:28:17 »
It is pretty widely disregarded.....and you can see why.  I like the design concept and even the old aesthetics, although I also think it has benefitted from the recent visual updates (MWO etc.).  It’s a shame it wasn't included in the new kickstarter for a redesigned mini.

That said, Battletech construction rules have always meant that we can rebuild the stock QD.  We have the technology :).  I have found attitudes to using custom builds can be a little variable around the community, so I always make other players aware if I am using a custom build.  Most of the time people have been ok with it.

Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #34 on: 05 January 2020, 10:50:45 »
Campaign games are generally good to go, once you work through the upgrades with the StratOps rules.  It's pick up games where most people are twitchy about customs.

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #35 on: 05 January 2020, 12:46:42 »
I think it also depends on the custom, and the tech level.

Seeing as we are talking about the QD, simple mods, like swapping it’s LRM10 for an SRM6 and a couple of extra heatsinks, or moving the rear facing MLs forward, shouldn't raise too many eyebrows.  However, if you start throwing in builds with level 3 tech, endo-steel and double heatsinks against groups, or scenarios, using early succession wars era mechs, you can understand why people get twitchy.  BV is one balancing axis for games, tech level/era should, IMHO, be another.  But it depends how, or if, groups enforce that. 

 

Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #36 on: 05 January 2020, 12:52:08 »
I've never put much stock into BV.  It just can't account for terrain, mission objectives, or player skill.

avon1985

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #37 on: 05 January 2020, 12:58:06 »
Medium followed by heavy. I like most of the 50-70 tonnage range.  :thumbsup:

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #38 on: 05 January 2020, 13:06:22 »
Also, you made a good point about pick up games, as the level of trust between unfamiliar players can often be lower, if not within an established group context.  So there may not be the willingness to indulge someones frankensteinian creation. 

I agree that campaigns should be the aim of a steady group, since they bring so much more to the game and smooth out some of the rough edges around things like upgrades and tech levels.  But, from experience, they are often an ambitious goal for the majority of casual players or groups, making them rarer than I would like to see, however YMMV.  Pickup games will still be a significant percentage of the experience of most BT players. 

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #39 on: 05 January 2020, 13:12:43 »
I've never put much stock into BV.  It just can't account for terrain, mission objectives, or player skill.

I’d say thats probably true for most games that use a points system for balance.  However, the existence of such a mechanism allows for a (reasonably) balanced pick up and competitive games structure amongst a widely diversified player base.  Curated campaigns might be the pinnacle of player experience, but they are also correspondingly hard to find, and demanding of player time and effort, so they arent something most players will spend the majority of their game experience on.  At least, that has been my experience.  If you have a group/gm willing to run such involved games you are probably lucky.

Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #40 on: 05 January 2020, 13:14:28 »
I was definitely lucky in college.  Campaigns these days are a bit looser...

SteveRestless

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #41 on: 05 January 2020, 14:38:00 »
Depends on the job to be done, but in a vacuum my order of preference is Heavy, Assault, Medium, Light
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

jamesbeil

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #42 on: 05 January 2020, 14:42:28 »
Absolutely Heavy first - Timber Wolf, Summoner followed by Assault - Charger ( <3 ) Atlas, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, there's just so many wonderful pieces of equipment in there!

Then again, my irrational love affair with the Urbanmech might mean that Light is my second-favourite...

The_Big_Red_Bear

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #43 on: 05 January 2020, 14:49:05 »
I’d say thats probably true for most games that use a points system for balance.  However, the existence of such a mechanism allows for a (reasonably) balanced pick up and competitive games structure amongst a widely diversified player base.  Curated campaigns might be the pinnacle of player experience, but they are also correspondingly hard to find, and demanding of player time and effort, so they arent something most players will spend the majority of their game experience on.  At least, that has been my experience.  If you have a group/gm willing to run such involved games you are probably lucky.

BV kind of became necessary once they started adding new tech to the game. In 3025, you could arguably do "weight" (even that's not perfect. a Charger's not as good as a Victor, Zeus, Awesome, ect). But taking a 3025 medium and putting it up against a 3055, 3058, 3075 ect, design, is just a good way to die on weight vs weight.
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Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #44 on: 05 January 2020, 14:56:19 »
BV only provides the illusion of balance.  There are so many factors it doesn't take into account, it's about worthless for me.

Hellraiser

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #45 on: 05 January 2020, 15:11:05 »
BV provides balance in terms of the mech design.  (or it tries to)

As good as BV2 is v/s BV1 there are still areas of refinement that are not as accurate as they could be.

C3, JJ's, MASC, TC, Overheating, Pilot Skills & the mostly unused FSM all need added tweaking IMO.


That said, its infinitely superior to "tonnage" or "X-Tons Intro for Y-Tons Clan" etc etc.

BV (Battle Value) measures the mech's combat capability & nothing else.

Terrain, Objectives, & Player Skill is all up to a GM to manipulate.
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Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #46 on: 05 January 2020, 15:31:44 »
Which is why "GM judgment" is the only true standard.  If only all GMs had the same standard...  ::)

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #47 on: 05 January 2020, 16:29:54 »
BV kind of became necessary once they started adding new tech to the game. In 3025, you could arguably do "weight" (even that's not perfect. a Charger's not as good as a Victor, Zeus, Awesome, ect). But taking a 3025 medium and putting it up against a 3055, 3058, 3075 ect, design, is just a good way to die on weight vs weight.

Agreed, as I mentioned earlier, BV is one axis of balance.  Tech level, or era should be another, so long as players enforce that.   Points will only balance in a vacuum, or at least a vacuum contained by the game structure and rules.  As Daryk has said, it doesnt take into account intangibles like terrain, scenario/objectives, player skill etc.  Players can balance a force around their known objectives, to a certain points value, and an agreed tech level or timeframe, and thats about as close as you get.  Everything else in a value is a mean average, as all other calculations of value tend to be.

Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #48 on: 05 January 2020, 16:36:33 »
As a GM, the goal is to provide a winnable challenge to the players.  The last thing the players should be striving for is a fair fight.  The whole (faulty) premise of BV is providing a fair fight.  As a military professional, one of the last things you want to walk into is a fair fight.  If you haven't done everything in your power to tip the balance in your favor BEFORE first contact, you're not doing your job.  It's not "cheat to win"... it's "if you're not cheating, you're not playing".

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #49 on: 05 January 2020, 17:21:45 »
As an ex-military professional I agree with those sentiments.  However that doesnt provide an incentive for most players to engage in one-off games that are unfairly ‘biased’ against them, unless it is inside a known group, campaign, or scenario context, i.e. they consent to the unfair terms.

I guess the closest analogy is sports. It wouldnt be entertaining if it was routinely a highly trained professional, full strength team kicking the stuffing out of the local, understrength, kindergarten team and claiming the honor and victory.  But those are exactly the kind of scenarios military tacticians seek to establish, not the fair-play ethic most civvies are raised to expect from society and life in general.  But thats a different discussion.

If the aim of the game is to win, but the whole point of playing the game in the first place is to have fun, then a well planned, balanced and GM-led scenario or, better yet, a campaign, is the best a player can hope for in terms of enjoyment and challenge. 

I would love for that to be the default experience for all new players, especially in BT, which has so much to gain from good GM-ing.  However there are far fewer GMs with sufficient dedication, experience, or time to provide that, than there are players who will settle for a quick BV balanced skirmish at their FLGS or kitchen table, because thats all that is on offer.  Not to mention real life gets a vote in our gaming too.

In my twenty plus years of wargaming the golden opportunities for a good campaign or scenario play are few and far between, and the most memorable because of that.








Daryk

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #50 on: 05 January 2020, 17:36:40 »
*snip*
In my twenty plus years of wargaming the golden opportunities for a good campaign or scenario play are few and far between, and the most memorable because of that.
I hear you brother, especially that last bit!  :thumbsup:

Greatclub

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #51 on: 05 January 2020, 20:23:42 »
I heard it described this way -
Quote
Before you even set up, your officer has screwed up because you're in a fair fight. Now it's time for you to save his career.


A while back I was running a campaign loosely based off sword and dragon. We had a 'retreat' scenario come up.

one guy thought that a LRM carrier was an appropriate choice for his section of the friendlies. He knew that the enemies were going to start right on top of them. He KNEW that the other player had chosen light mechs and planned to run away. About the only thing he didn't know was that those dice I'd asked him to roll the week before meant that he was going to be arse deep in assault mechs.

The fight was memorable in a bad way, and pretty much ended the campaign.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2020, 20:26:11 by Greatclub »

Cannonshop

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #52 on: 05 January 2020, 22:17:46 »
As a GM, running a campaign, you have to walk a line between giving the players a challenge, and either giving them a walk, or going too far with it and breaking them.

I have run intentionally unbalanced fights going both ways-where teh opfor is too weak, and where it's far, far too effective.

I heard it described this way -

A while back I was running a campaign loosely based off sword and dragon. We had a 'retreat' scenario come up.

one guy thought that a LRM carrier was an appropriate choice for his section of the friendlies. He knew that the enemies were going to start right on top of them. He KNEW that the other player had chosen light mechs and planned to run away. About the only thing he didn't know was that those dice I'd asked him to roll the week before meant that he was going to be arse deep in assault mechs.

The fight was memorable in a bad way, and pretty much ended the campaign.

Been there, though not specifically the LRM carrier.  There's a limit, when you've given them a copy of the map a week ahead of time, They already know the objective a week ahead of time, and you give them a BV to fill, sometimes they don't do so well, and what should have been an easy walk for them turns into a grinding mess.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Crimson Dawn

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #53 on: 06 January 2020, 00:28:12 »
I am now a bit curious to know how you even begin to create encounters as somebody new to the game with any sort of idea of what they are doing (making it hard if that is desired, making it easy for others whatever) when using a new GM, with no BV, and I am hoping without using trial and error. 

Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #54 on: 06 January 2020, 04:12:32 »
I am now a bit curious to know how you even begin to create encounters as somebody new to the game with any sort of idea of what they are doing (making it hard if that is desired, making it easy for others whatever) when using a new GM, with no BV, and I am hoping without using trial and error.

That's a really good question, especially if, as you say, you are new to the game.  I could say find the experienced players in your local group/FLGS and learn how they do it, but that may not be a realistic option.  It's hard to organize and fill a campaign, even with veteran players, especially if you want to run it for an extended period or follow a fixed schedule. 

I think a lot of campaign and scenario play comes down to what you want to achieve out of it.  Are you simply looking for the next step beyond pickup battles, or do you want to create a specific experience for the players like a known battle from one of the books, or maybe a sandbox environment where they can scheme and compete to gain the most territory, resources, special macguffins etc. over an extended period.  Knowing what you want is half the battle.  For newer players, a few linked games, maybe ideas lifted from the scenario books (Sword and Dragon was mentioned in the thread) are a good way to start.  A lot of the rulebooks and sourcebooks have specific missions and formations listed in them which makes it easier, depending on your collection of mechs and record sheets.  You could write a short narrative about unit X being left out of position after Y faction invades their little ball of dirt in the ass-end of nowheresville, and follow the mechs and warriors of unit X as it struggles against fresh invading forces, over a period of days and several battles without resupply, to reach the safety of their own lines, or the evac transport or whatever.  You are literally limited only by your own imagination.

There are plenty of resources out there to help you, without having to write a campaign setting and scenarios yourself.  The Battletech Chaos campaign system is pretty good, though maybe what I would call a little detail-heavy.  There is a fair amount of record-keeping and tracking of resources, experience, etc. over the campaign.  However, I don't think newer players should have any major issues.  Alternatively, there are fan-made campaigns and rules out there which might fit what you need.  You could even try to write your own.  I have certainly done that for a number of games systems over the years, though from experience its not always the best way, especially if your hard work doesn't pay off and get players motivated to follow through over the longer term.

So to summarize the various crap bouncing round my head.  Heres what I would do if designing something.

1.  Have a plan - Know what you want to achieve in the campaign/scenarios etc.  Write it down, discuss it with the players.  Figure out a tempo of games, how often, how long etc.  What is manageable?
2.  Design your experience - Match it to player ability and expectations.  You should know what the players want by now (see 1.), you are more likely to enjoy it and so will they.
3.  Build it and they will come - Create a pre-prepared pack of missions, briefings, maps, forces, organisations etc. which the players can access to know what they are doing, give them time to prepare and amp up the hype in their own heads.
4.  Build the atmosphere - You arent Joe Smith, telecomms engineer by day and harassed father of a 5 year-old by night, you are Heinrich 'Mustang' Brenner, a 7 confirmed kill Lyran Mechwarrior ace, in the cockpit of your 100-ton scout 'Klaus'.  You are leading your mostly green, 400-ton recon lance of dedicated Steiner patriots against the predations of the evil Black-Hand pirates, as they ravage the poor peasant farmers of the agri-world Klydor 7, or whatever. 
5.  Make the games an experience to remember - Don't give players an excuse to play as normal, turning up late to the session with their shiny unpainted metal minis.  You want everyone to look forward to playing and make an effort.  Get the players invested.  The more experienced players can lend minis to those who don't have them, or maybe give players time to buy and build a lance specifically for the campaign.  Make it a requirement to have painted minis and a written fluff background for each player's unit.  Maybe collect a few bucks from everyone to offer a small prize at the end, and vote for the best designed and most characterful unit of the campaign.  Maybe one of your group volunteers to GM the games and play the opfor.  It's not always the most fun role, the GM is often not as invested as the players, but they get the work/fun of playing a lot of games and ensuring a smooth enjoyable experience for everyone.  Rotate the GM duties for the next campaign so some poor schlub doesn't always end up being 'it'.
6.  Learn what worked - Perhaps most importantly, get feedback from the players, what did they like/not like, what worked or didn't.  Learn from those mistakes and improve on the next try. 
7.  Share the love - Talk about what you are doing with other players and groups.  Show them there is more to gaming than just an endless series of soulless, 3000 BV skirmishes on the same map sheet.  One of the biggest obstacles to entry I have seen is more experienced groups not welcoming newer players to join established campaigns.  It's especially difficult when a campaign has been running a long time and there are several really experienced players and lances with lots of upgrades.  It also puts newer/potential players off playing if they can't get a foot in the door, which isn't good for the game, or the group, long term.  There should be a way of compensating for the entry of a new player, maybe giving them more experienced pilots and some advanced tech, so the newer player doesn't feel left behind or victimized when another player conducts a dawn raid on their newly encamped merc force of Whitworths with a dozen Atlases (Atli? :P).  If you are tracking experience levels, tech and BV for the different players, you can approximate the combined 'values' for a new starting force.

Apologies if any of that comes across as patronizing or simplistic.  I am trying to keep this broad brush, as a lot of this is relative.  One group won't do the same thing as another.  It depends on players, available time, preferences etc.  Most groups that I have seen run campaigns etc. have their own 'way' of doing things and there is nothing wrong with that.

For balance, I would say BV is helpful.  It doesnt have to be equal for all games though.  Think about movies and books that you know.  The plucky heroes are outnumbered by their evil enemies, but by taking advantage of the terrain or surprise, they win the day.  You can balance lack of BV with other advantages.  Maybe the players’ mobile fast moving lance, facing off against a heavier, more powerful opfor sets up in dense terrain behind areas of difficult ground.  This gives them more cover and slows down the enemy force, giving them time to whittle down the opfor.  Maybe they have a predetermined number of orbital or artillery strikes.  I wouldn't over worry about balance at first.  So long as its close, it should be enjoyable and the atmosphere and fun of doing something different will cover a lot of sins.
« Last Edit: 06 January 2020, 04:32:47 by Phocion »

Getz

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #55 on: 06 January 2020, 05:50:11 »
BV (Battle Value) measures the mech's combat capability & nothing else.

Terrain, Objectives, & Player Skill is all up to a GM to manipulate.

Broadly I agree with what you're saying, but there's something here that's been said a couple of times that I don't get.

Why do we want to "balance out" player skill?

Not only can no balancing system account for player skill (how would you even quantify it?) - why would you even want it to? Surely the point of a balancing system is to allow us to play with "equal" forces so that the sole determining factor in the outcome is player skill (and list building is as much a part of a wargamers skill set as their tabletop tactics).

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Phocion

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #56 on: 06 January 2020, 06:51:07 »
I think the point is that by relying on BV to balance games all the time, you reduce games to cookie cutter equal force scenarios, which will naturally highlight player skill in the outcomes, as the other variables have been equalised.  This then potentially reduces the scope for narrative driven games, which might emphasise terrain or other advantages while featuring imbalanced BVs.

One way to get around this might be to have preagreed BV totals for other advantages that players could use to build their forces, such as buying intelligence on enemy set up, buying additional terrain, or increasing the movement difficulty of existing terrain.  If I remember correctly there are already rules for buying fortifications and defences, artillery strikes and such, though I cant remember where they are.

Apocal

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #57 on: 06 January 2020, 07:59:43 »
Not only can no balancing system account for player skill (how would you even quantify it?) - why would you even want it to?

An even match between two players of dissimilar skill, because they are just looking to kill a few hours on Sunday afternoon throwing dice and blowing up robots.

Crimson Dawn

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #58 on: 06 January 2020, 15:52:29 »
Interesting how many here seem to default to the concept that BV is to make something balanced or equal to each other whereas I see that as only one use of it.  To me you can just as easily use it to make it so that one side has a big advantage over the other perhaps either due to wanting to make it more of a challenge for a side or due to story reasons.

Of course if I had loads of experience with making encounters I could make exactly what I want without any help but frankly I personally do not have that skill set yet.  I can use BV as a base to make some initial choices or to modify my choices.  I could have a group that has a large number of jump capable mechs in a broken terrain map and using their BV I could make a group larger or smaller in BV but I could also adjust those numbers based on the type of mechs in this case I could put a scary looking higher BV group for them to fight but the higher BV group has mech unsuited to the terrain so the player group will feel intimidated by the other side with greater fire power but they have a real chance to win because their designs are better suited in the terrain.

I might not be exactly right but that feels like something I could do and without BV currently I do not think I would have a knowledge base to even begin.

Just to give an idea my experience is I am a fairly new player and if I did not have a local group then I would have trouble trying to come up with scenarios with any idea of how balanced or not the encounter would be on my own.



























klarg1

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Re: What is your favorite mech weight class?
« Reply #59 on: 06 January 2020, 15:59:46 »
I think the point is that by relying on BV to balance games all the time, you reduce games to cookie cutter equal force scenarios, which will naturally highlight player skill in the outcomes, as the other variables have been equalised.  This then potentially reduces the scope for narrative driven games, which might emphasise terrain or other advantages while featuring imbalanced BVs.

I don't think I agree with the premise of this argument. BV provides an approximation of what constitutes the strength of a force, but it says nothing about how to balance a scenario. It is completely reasonable to give an attacking force a 2:1 force advantage over an entrenched defender. That decision is part of how a scenario is written. The point system you choose is simply a tool designed to help you reach that goal.

The existence of a point system does not dictate that points must always be equal on both sides.

If you want to give the more experienced player a handicap, go ahead and do it. There are no balance police waiting to kick down your door for it.